D valve tuning

[bigbandbone]

I read the tuning across octaves thread with interest and would like to expand it.

I tune my f valve so 4th line F open and trigger match pitch.

How do I tune the D valve. Do I tune 3rd line D on the money in 1st position? Or do I tune D below the staff right on the money?

[Burgerbob]

This is on a dependent horn? Independent horn?

I tune it so the D above the staff is a bit high compared to open D.

[imsevimse]

The op starts with telling us how he tunes his f-trigger. The first valve on a double can be setup the same as on a single so I start with some variances for that first and then the easiest possible setup for the D-valve. First the principle to tune the horn needs to be agreed on, because from that first tuning note you relate everything.

The open horn

I tune my first position Bb away from the bumper about 2 centimetres. The F is even further off the bumper. This is important as you then need that F when you tune the trigger-f. Often the tuning note is the A (440 or 442 on this side of the pond). Of course you need to know your open horn well to get that A on position 2 from the oboe but we leave that for now, because that is far from the subject.

The F-valve

I do tune fourth line trigger f to match the open f but the trigger f is at the bumper and the open f is quite a bit off the bumper. I also play the low trigger f at the bumper and match with low f in sixth position. Then I play low f at the bumper and check both pedal Bb and the octave Bb to be away from the bumper when I play that as an arpeggio.

If you tune trigger f and the open f at the same position at the bumper then when you play first position Bb open and the low F on T1 that interval will come out false, especially if you tune Bb at the bumper. The low F will then come out as flat. Some have said "this note is often flat on some horns" and that is true it often comes out as flat but has not to do with a particular horn but rather how you tune your instrument over all.

If you tune (f-trigger-tuning-1) low F at the bumper on T1 and open Bb off the bumper then there is no problem with the F. This tuning unfortunately does not enable an in-tune low C at the end of the slide on far T6. That note needs the slide to be at the very end and then the note also needs to be lipped down a bit to get in tune.

The other way to tune the trigger is to tune C at the bumper (f-trigger-tuning-2). With this tuning you have no low F on T1 but you have the C at the end of the slide on T6 at reach.

When I play bass I often use a single and then I often switch between these two tunings. My main setup is the "f-trigger-tuning-1" where I can use the low F on T1 and need to stretch to T6 and lip down to get the low C. This is my setup on a large bore trigger tenor which means it is the tuning I'm most comfortable to use. Often I can manage the C's and B's as fake notes on positions T2 and T3. On a tenor those are rather rare. If l'm on the bass and can spot a sustained C I pull to the "f-trigger-tuning-2" setup to reach the C better on far end T6 if I have the time. On the bass the C is very common. If I need to play Db, D, Eb and E with that tuning I need to remember they are a bit shorter than with the normal setup. I find it more useful to switch between these two instead of retuning to E which would be the next thing to do. Most f-trigger-slides are not long enough to tune to flat E and without flat E on T1 you can not reach the B at far end T6 anyway. Even with E-tuning I have not the B on the end of the slide without lipping in tune. This has lead me to the desicion the E-tuning is rather useless on the single unless it is one of the few singles that have a really long f-tuning-slide in combination with that extra long slide like the Conn 70h, Conn 72h, Conn 71h and the Conn 73h. On those you can reach the B with less lipping on the far end. It is at least possible. I checked that right now on on one very good Conn 71h.

The D-valve (dependant horn)

When the f-trigger is in tune I tune the second valve to give a low C on TT3. I like to have that note and position at the same position as fourth position G on the open horn. This way I do not need to learn yet another position. It is practical and I play dependent so I do not care about using the second valve on its own. I find this to be the easiest setup and since I only use the both valves for C and B it is enough for everything that has been put on the stand so far. I know there are bass tromboneplayers who play independent and then really have put work into valve-job. I guess for some virtuous work this gives advantage and is the path you need to go. As a doubler with the repertoire I come across I have no need for this.

F-valve (independent horn)

I have a Benge 290 and a Olds P24G (has the optional second valve D-slide) that are independent horns. I would much like suggestions on how to tune them to make the best use of their independent setup.

/Tom

[FullPedalTrombonist]

Personally I tune so that F2 on the valve is in tune where my tuning Bb is. Same for D2.

[imsevimse]

Personally I tune so that F2 on the valve is in tune where my tuning Bb is. Same for D2.

Yes, that is also a possible tuning. I tried it on my Yamaha 356R just now. I need to push the f-tuningslide all the way in to have the F at about the same spot as my Bb. With this tuning it is very far from a C on the end of the slide. It is then much harder to lip down to get a C so it has to be fake notes to solve that with that tuning, but that is fine with me. If you play a double you don't have the need of the C and B on the f-valve anyway.

/Tom

[FullPedalTrombonist]

I very seldomly play C or B with just one valve. My slide is pretty long and I can get there if the lick is set up with a single valve C or B being easier.

I haven’t played a single horn in a while, but I tuned the attachment where I could comfortably reach B at least. It was close enough to what I was used to to not be confusing to muscle memory

[imsevimse]

I very seldomly play C or B with just one valve. My slide is pretty long and I can get there if the lick is set up with a single valve C or B being easier.

I haven’t played a single horn in a while, but I tuned the attachment where I could comfortably reach B at least. It was close enough to what I was used to to not be confusing to muscle memory

B on one valve comfortable? What horn is that? I have no single horn where a B is possible without some lipping even with the longest pull on the trigger.

/Tom

[FullPedalTrombonist]

I very seldomly play C or B with just one valve. My slide is pretty long and I can get there if the lick is set up with a single valve C or B being easier.

I haven’t played a single horn in a while, but I tuned the attachment where I could comfortably reach B at least. It was close enough to what I was used to to not be confusing to muscle memory

B on one valve comfortable? What horn is that? I have no single horn where a B is possible without some lipping even with the longest pull on the trigger.

/Tom

Both my old Minick 180 and an all original 9.5” bell 180 I borrowed from a friend paired with a PrimeSlide Design 4 had a perfect feeling slot lipping down about a whole step from all notes below Eb. Solid enough to feel where it is consistently. But could definitely be lipped too low. I couldn’t do it nearly as easily with my 822G with one or both valves installed and never tried with my FrankenBass because it has two valves and I don’t need to.

[brassmedic]

I tune the F below the staff in the same place as tuning Bb, because it's not necessarily exactly the same as the middle F, and you would never need to play middle F with the trigger because it's the same note as the open horn. I also tune low D in the same spot.

[tbonesullivan]

I tune my dependent horn so that I have the most possible notes available, so I tune for the in tune F and D in "first position", which I play about 1/2" inch off the bumpers. For a dependent horn I don't see why someone wouldn't want all the valves to be in tune in first position.

For an independent horn, it would be a different story. Then a choice needs to be made, and currently there are various "camps" regarding which tuning is the best with both Bb/F/G/Eb and Bb/F/Gb/D horns. Then there's also the Blair Bollinger camp.

The end answer is "find what works for you".

[bigbandbone]

OP here
I didn't realize there were so many approaches to tuning the rotors. Very interesting and informative. I'm glad I posed the question!