Advices on my embouchure formation

ttf_Dixieland57 · Post by **ttf_Dixieland57** » Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:12 am

Hi, I have problems with my embouchure, I hope with the pics I post here some embouchure guru of this forum can give me recommandations.

I ask because I always have something like a air leak that make a sound like bubbles...

Thank you

ttf_Dixieland57 · Post by **ttf_Dixieland57** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:39 am

Nobody ?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:48 am

Probably the only person who may be able to tell from your pictures is Doug Elliott, and he's in the middle of a cross-country trip home from ITF. He just may not have time to examine your pictures. Be patient.

ttf_Dixieland57 · Post by **ttf_Dixieland57** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:21 am

Oh sorry

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:25 am

Photos don't show on this PC. I'll look later at home.

My guess is a still photo may not show much; you might need to do a 30 second youtube clip. It's easy with a smart phone.

ttf_Dixieland57 · Post by **ttf_Dixieland57** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:24 am

Ok I will do that as soon as I have a little bit of time, but one thing I realize is that I can play without air leak and more high if I put a little bit more pressure on my lips with my embouchure but if fill strange because I play for 2 years with so minimal pressure that even if I play 2 hours rehearsal with big band I don't have any red ring on my lips.

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:42 pm

We need to see it in context with the mouthpiece placement, but to me your lips look too far apart in that picture. When you say "pressure with your embouchure", do you mean pressure against the mouthpiece? High range should be obtained by making the aperture smaller with your muscles, and definitely not with more mouthpiece pressure. You need enough mouthpiece pressure to form a seal, but mouthpiece pressure should not be the mechanism by which you obtain high range.

ttf_Dixieland57 · Post by **ttf_Dixieland57** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:02 pm

When I said pressure it's cushion between my lips and the mouthpiece but in all register.

Before even if i'm playing an F on the ledger of the clef, Bb under, Bb above, D, it's always a leak somewhere, now that I put A LITTLE more pressure IN ALL register, no more leak

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:34 am

Asking a question like this means if you get answers that you should take them with a big hip of salt.
But.

All of us use some pressure!
(There have been som discoussions about "non pressure" I know some students of a famous Danish trumpeter who taught "non pressure", Not a usefull way to play!)
Do use moderate pressure to prevent air leaking.

Do you have any other problems with your embouchure?
Nothing looks wrong with the pics, could be good, or bad depending on the sound.
I seen "beautiful" embouchures that actually did not work, and pretty ugly ones that make beautiful sound. The pics does not say much. Sorry about that.

ttf_baileyman · Post by **ttf_baileyman** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:02 am

Quote from: Dixieland57 on Jul 05, 2017, 02:02PMWhen I said pressure it's cushion between my lips and the mouthpiece but in all register.

Before even if i'm playing an F on the ledger of the clef, Bb under, Bb above, D, it's always a leak somewhere, now that I put A LITTLE more pressure IN ALL register, no more leak

Well, you have to use enough pressure to shut down the leaks!

What is surprising to me is how little pressure that can be. And, having thought I was using low pressure, to find as skills evolved, that actually I was using much more than needed for certain notes, well, the revelations never end. I wonder what will show up next.

If you are not leaking, and you get a good sound and you practice all your notes every day, my guess is whatever you're concerned about will evolve into something better.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:31 am

Quote from: baileyman on Jul 06, 2017, 05:02AMWell, you have to use enough pressure to shut down the leaks!

What is surprising to me is how little pressure that can be. And, having thought I was using low pressure, to find as skills evolved, that actually I was using much more than needed for certain notes, well, the revelations never end. I wonder what will show up next.

If you are not leaking, and you get a good sound and you practice all your notes every day, my guess is whatever you're concerned about will evolve into something better.

Not necessarily. Someone could be exerting such a strong air push from their body as to make leaks on high notes inevitable unless the embouchure is correspondingly strong AND/OR excessive pressure is used in an effort to contain the leaks. I have to guard against it in my playing by throttling back on my air and reminding myself to keep the excessive mpc pressure off. Just enough pressure to make a seal at normal playing in the middle range is what I have to constantly remind myself of. I'm guessing I am not unique in that regard.

...Geezer

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:17 am

Are leaks always bad? It seems like I've heard some accomplished players leak.

There is probably a type of leak that is bad, when you play low and relax the corners too much.

Blowing so hard you leak in the high range sounds strange to me, though. High range takes less air. Where's it leaking from? The aperture is much smaller.

ttf_Dixieland57 · Post by **ttf_Dixieland57** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:49 am

Leaks reduce my ability to play long notes or phrases due to the fact that something like 40 percent of my air don't go into the horn.

The last month at my exam my teacher told me that he was hearing air leaking and he was behind me next to the pianist for page turn...

ttf_SethMatrix · Post by **ttf_SethMatrix** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:59 am

Quote from: Dixieland57 on Jul 03, 2017, 03:12AMHi, I have problems with my embouchure, I hope with the pics I post here some embouchure guru of this forum can give me recommandations.

I ask because I always have something like a air leak that make a sound like bubbles...

Thank you

We need a picture with the mouthpiece on. From the side, top, bottom, other side, and with a rim if you have one.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:52 am

Quote from: Dixieland57 on Jul 06, 2017, 06:49AMLeaks reduce my ability to play long notes or phrases due to the fact that something like 40 percent of my air don't go into the horn.

That sounds unlikely to me.

It might be a second order effect.

I'm more convinced now you need an actual teacher looking at it.

Failing that, if you want more attempts at diagnosis from unknown forum members <grin> then post a youtube clip. Assuming you are right handed, the camera must show the mouthpiece and face from the right side, at about a 45 degree angle. We need to see you place the mouthpiece, take a breath, slur middle Bb - F - low Bb. Then the same thing from the F above that down.

That should generate a variety of contradictory opinions.

Or you could ask one of the people who knows what they're doing - but what's the fun in that?

ttf_baileyman · Post by **ttf_baileyman** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:19 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 06, 2017, 05:31AMNot necessarily. Someone could be exerting such a strong air push from their body as to make leaks on high notes inevitable unless the embouchure is correspondingly strong AND/OR excessive pressure is used in an effort to contain the leaks. ...

...Geezer

Could I translate this as: "Leaks can happen if you blow too hard"?

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:16 am

Quote from: Dixieland57 on Jul 06, 2017, 06:49AMLeaks reduce my ability to play long notes or phrases due to the fact that something like 40 percent of my air don't go into the horn.

The last month at my exam my teacher told me that he was hearing air leaking and he was behind me next to the pianist for page turn...

So what advice did you get from your teacher?

As I said, pictures alone can not tell much about your problem.
There are many ways to go, many different methods, all of them are the right one, for the right person. I am sorry but this issue should be handled by a proessional teacher in the same room. Not by people you don´t know much about on the neet.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:37 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jul 06, 2017, 10:16AM I am sorry but this issue should be handled by a proessional teacher in the same room. Not by people you don´t know much about on the neet.

This is true and maybe we shouldn't encourage it. But sometimes we can learn by watching what somebody else does.

Here:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=-1&f=44

is a forum where we disc golfers post videos of our throws, for our peers to criticize. There are a few true biomechanical experts who do analyze the throws, but we all try to see what we can notice, and learn from it.

Besides, we live in the dream that someday, somewhere, somebody will post a video of worse playing than our own.

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:00 am

I think that the term "non pressure" is a reaction to a time when students were taught to press, spit and blow. So to play higher, press harder, this being from the days of the "smile" embouchure.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:24 pm

Quote from: baileyman on Jul 06, 2017, 09:19AMCould I translate this as: "Leaks can happen if you blow too hard"?

Trick question? My post needs translated? Okay; "Leaks can happen if you blow too hard", with the emphasis on too. We can blow as hard as we want, but it's more work and if we over-blow, or blow too hard for our level of ability, it can give poor results; air leaks in the upper register being one of them.

...Geezer

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:17 am

geezer,
I suggest that if you're blowing too hard in the upper register you're throwing a potato chip.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:52 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Yesterday at 05:17 AMgeezer,
I suggest that if you're blowing too hard in the upper register you're throwing a potato chip.

Thanks.

I mentioned it b/c I believe it's a common problem with students. I wasn't asking for advice.

...Geezer

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:57 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Yesterday at 05:52 AMThanks.

I mentioned it b/c I believe it's a common problem with students. I wasn't asking for advice.

...Geezer

Yes and no.

I suspect you are right about blowing too hard being a common student problem. and understandably so, with all the well intentioned advice about how much air pressure high range requires.

What I doubt a bit is the extent to which that causes air leaks. I think the reverse is true. Too much air makes you tighten your chops, often to the point you can't hit the high notes, but I haven't noticed that causing a leak. The leaks I hear seem to be more from corners that are too relaxed in an attempt to get low notes. IMO of course.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:13 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Yesterday at 05:57 AMYes and no.

I suspect you are right about blowing too hard being a common student problem. and understandably so, with all the well intentioned advice about how much air pressure high range requires.

What I doubt a bit is the extent to which that causes air leaks. I think the reverse is true. Too much air makes you tighten your chops, often to the point you can't hit the high notes, but I haven't noticed that causing a leak. The leaks I hear seem to be more from corners that are too relaxed in an attempt to get low notes. IMO of course.

Alrighty. That might hold true for you.

I get it.

It's immaterial what holds true for me.

Who knows what holds true for the OP!?! That's what one-on-one instruction is for.

Otherwise, for the sake of discussion...

...Geezer

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:59 pm

Hmmm.... The volume of air that you put through the horn determines how loud the sound is. If you are forming a correct embouchure and not changing it, then "throttling back on the air" should simply reduce the dynamic level that you are playing. Blowing more air should simply increase the dynamic. Of course if your embouchure is wrong, or you don't have the strength to maintain it, then blowing more air will cause the embouchure to collapse. But I wouldn't think of it as "too much" or "not enough" air; you need precisely the amount of air required to sustain the dynamic level you are trying to produce.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:32 pm

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:58 am

Quote from: Blowero on Yesterday at 12:59 PMHmmm.... The volume of air that you put through the horn determines how loud the sound is. If you are forming a correct embouchure and not changing it, then "throttling back on the air" should simply reduce the dynamic level that you are playing. Blowing more air should simply increase the dynamic. Of course if your embouchure is wrong, or you don't have the strength to maintain it, then blowing more air will cause the embouchure to collapse. But I wouldn't think of it as "too much" or "not enough" air; you need precisely the amount of air required to sustain the dynamic level you are trying to produce.

That's the idea and I believe it is an amateur fault.

Channeling Mozart? There are neither too few nor too many notes in this piece. There are precisely the number needed. lol

...Geezer

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:01 am

Quote from: Dixieland57 on Jul 03, 2017, 03:12AMHi, I have problems with my embouchure, I hope with the pics I post here some embouchure guru of this forum can give me recommandations.

I ask because I always have something like a air leak that make a sound like bubbles...

Thank you

It's hard to say because your photos aren't in context of you playing. Video would be better. In person lessons are best.

The second photo shows an open aperture. Again, without knowing the context of what exactly you were doing while taking the photo, I can't say for sure. That said, I prefer to teach students to keep the lips center touching and allow the aperture to form when it is blown apart. Based on the photo, it looks like you're just blowing air throw the aperture and keeping it open. The embouchure formation looks too loose for free buzzing. Maybe a photo of you free buzzing (very softly and a high pitch, at least

) would be helpful.

Dave

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:38 am

Dixiland, you've gotten excellent advice from a disciple of Doug Elliott and a noted embouchure expert in his own right. Heed what he says.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:27 am

And, if you don´t free buzz you should be awere about the fact that many of the best brass musicians in the world don´t free buzz at all.

There are no method that is for everybody.

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:47 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 08, 2017, 04:58AMThat's the idea and I believe it is an amateur fault.

Channeling Mozart? There are neither too few nor too many notes in this piece. There are precisely the number needed. lol

...Geezer

Ha ha. Not really. It's more like learning to drive a car. "How far should I push down the gas pedal?" That depends entirely on how fast you want the car to move.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:49 pm

Quote from: Blowero on Jul 08, 2017, 03:47PMHa ha. Not really. It's more like learning to drive a car. "How far should I push down the gas pedal?" That depends entirely on how fast you want the car to move.

Lol. Or how fast you want to get somewhere or how badly you want to be in a car wreck. The blowing too hard for one's embouchure is the car wreck!

...Geezer

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:26 pm

The pictures don't tell anything about you. Internet isn't the best place for learning how to play.......

Leif

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:35 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 08, 2017, 03:49PMLol. Or how fast you want to get somewhere or how badly you want to be in a car wreck. The blowing too hard for one's embouchure is the car wreck!

...Geezer

ttf_Wilktone · Post by **ttf_Wilktone** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:39 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jul 08, 2017, 10:27AMAnd, if you don´t free buzz you should be awere about the fact that many of the best brass musicians in the world don´t free buzz at all.

There are no method that is for everybody.

Yes, and free buzzing isn't really a great diagnostic tool either. I would like to see what Dixieland57's embouchure formation looks like more firmed. I suspect that the air leak is due to it being too loose, but it's hard to say. As I mentioned above, video in context of him playing the horn is much better.

Quote from: savio on Jul 08, 2017, 04:26PMThe pictures don't tell anything about you. Internet isn't the best place for learning how to play.......

Leif

But we try anyway.

Dave

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:47 pm

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jul 08, 2017, 10:27AMAnd, if you don´t free buzz you should be awere about the fact that many of the best brass musicians in the world don´t free buzz at all.

There are no method that is for everybody.

One mans bread can be another mans death. Isn't it an old word that is something like that?

Quote from: Wilktone on Jul 09, 2017, 07:39AM
But we try anyway.

Dave

Yes, I agree. We should still try

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:46 am

Quote from: savio on Jul 09, 2017, 02:47PM
One mans bread can be another mans death. Isn't it an old word that is something like that?

In the UK it's "one mans meat is another mans poison".

ttf_Dixieland57 · Post by **ttf_Dixieland57** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:07 am

Oh thank you for all your reply my friends

ttf_Dixieland57 · Post by **ttf_Dixieland57** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:07 am

Oh thank you for all your reply my friends