Conn 88H lacquer issue - what would you do?

[Blenky]

Interested in collective wisdom on this one!

I bought a new 88H in December 2018 having blown about 12 of them and selecting one which seemed to suit.

By April 2019 the lacquer around about 30% of the bell section rim had started to bleed and there were a few spots also starting to appear about an inch above this.

Conn agreed to re-lacquer under warranty but they had the instrument for nearly 3 months in order to find ‘a quality tech’ who could do the work. Got the instrument back and it was a passable job, but I accepted as I needed the instrument back.

It’s now 6 months later and the bell section rim is stating to bleed badly again, to say I’m pissed off is an understatement!

I’m taking the instrument back to the shop at the weekend, but wondered what you guys would do. Personally, I want a new instrument, as I see this as something that will just keep happening and I can’t keeping giving up my horn for months at a time.

....or should I let them repair again as I actually like the sound this instrument makes?

[SwissTbone]

I would talk to Conn and ask if they would pay for stripping the lacquer and giving the horn a brushed finish.

[harrisonreed]

Sounds like a problem with the metal and not the lacquer. Aren't Conns susceptible to about bleed and red rot?

[hornbuilder]

Acid bleed is due to the rim being soldered, and the acid flux not being completely neutralised before lacquering. It is a potential problem for any bell with a soldered rim, and is not limited to just certain companies. Re finishing is not a guarantee that it won't come back, unfortunately. It has nothing to do with the finish being either bright or scratch. A scratch finish bell rim is likely to bleed too.

Take it back to Conn and insist on them taking care of it under warrantee. It may be that you have to accept a complete new bell.

M

[sacfxdx]

I bought a new 88H in 2016 and had the same issue. After a few weeks of use I started seeing acid bleed. I took it back to the store and they ordered another 88H. same problem in a few weeks. when I posted here I was told to learn to live with it. since I like the horn I decided to keep it. It did not continue to bleed. So I have some bleed around the bell edge but nothing significant.

Good luck with yours. sending back to the factory is always a coin flip. Maybe it'll be better, maybe it'll be worse. It sometimes takes forever to get the factory folks to work on it. I think the Conn-Selmer company is too big to worry about us little guys.

[tbonesullivan]

Yamaha used to have this problem in a big way with their soldered rims. My Bach, King, and Kanstul horns all have a little bit of acid bleed. I have heard, though I'm not sure how true this is, that the flux can get trapped inside the rim, and then can slowly seep out. With my King 3b it took ten years of playing for it to appear.

[Matt K]

If it is indeed acid bleed and only acid bleed, I'd personally leave it on a horn that I liked. I tend to let things that are exclusively cosmetic be though. Another option would be to unlacquer the bell or to unlacquer the portion around the rim. The commercial horn I've been playing on (646 slide, 356 bell) usually has an unsoldered bell bead but I had someone remove the lacquer and flow some solder around the bell bead so I have a circular strip of unlacquered around mine since getting it relacquered isn't cheap and I like the way it plays now.

[hyperbolica]

Acid bleed is a cosmetic issue. But since you still have warranty, you might as well make use of it.

I personally would de-lacquer the bell, and then the problem goes away.

[Blenky]

Thanks all.

A brushed finish sounds interesting, would make it relatively unique in my neck of the woods! Is there any negative in terms of sound quality over the red brass?

Galling thing is that the guy on second desk next to me has a 60’s 8H that’s practically perfect

Will see what the shop have to say, should still get warranty, but don’t want a 3 month wait again!

[Thrawn22]

Its hard to find any newer made horns that don't end up having cosmetic issues creep up. If the horn sounds fine then ignore it. If it still bothers you utilize the warranty. Considering workmanship isn't what it used to be, you may end up with the same issue as before. If the factory is doing the relacquering correctly, they'll strip the lacquer from the bell, buff then color buff the surface, then put a new coat of lacquer on. Color buffing takes bell material off (micro millimeters), so if you keep buffing the bell the bell will get thinner. Plating the bell would conceivably solve the bleed issue.

Old Conns (pre 80s) used epoxy lacquer as well as having unsoldered bell rims. Thats probably why your friends Elkhart looks pristine.

[harrisonreed]

When did the 88H switch over to the soldered bead? The unsoldered rim is sort of a major part of what makes an 88H an 88H...

[Thrawn22]

When did the 88H switch over to the soldered bead? The unsoldered rim is sort of a major part of what makes an 88H an 88H...

From what I've been told they started soldering the bell rim around the Gen 1 era (mid 90s?). My 8H LT was made around 2000 (i think) and its got a soldered rim and some acid bleed.

[tbonesullivan]

When did the 88H switch over to the soldered bead? The unsoldered rim is sort of a major part of what makes an 88H an 88H...

Yeah, as well as the brazed bell seam, but they went to a welded seam, thicker metal, and then went to a soldered bead. The THIN bells are better, but apparently still not as thin as the Elkhart days. I doubt we'll see much more innovation from Conn anytime soon. Conn-Selmer has put pretty much all their energy into making more expensive versions of Bach instruments. I also don't think the quality has recovered yet from moving production from Eastlake, which was a pretty bad idea.

[harrisonreed]

When did the 88H switch over to the soldered bead? The unsoldered rim is sort of a major part of what makes an 88H an 88H...

Yeah, as well as the brazed bell seam, but they went to a welded seam, thicker metal, and then went to a soldered bead. The THIN bells are better, but apparently still not as thin as the Elkhart days. I doubt we'll see much more innovation from Conn anytime soon. Conn-Selmer has put pretty much all their energy into making more expensive versions of Bach instruments. I also don't think the quality has recovered yet from moving production from Eastlake, which was a pretty bad idea.

I have an Eastlake 88HTCL from 2006 that is a joy to play. A really great horn. If it's soldered (I don't really know if it is or not,. Or how to check), I can't fault it.

But the T-396A is just flat out easier to play.

[bigbandbone]

I worked in the Eastlake factory (King/UMI/Conn-Selmer) about 20 years ago. Back then acid bleeds were a major and expensive problem in all departments. You would think they'd have figured out a solution by now.

[walldaja]

Acid bleed is a failure to ensure the soldering was properly done, putting lacquer over it won't fix the underlying problem. While it is a cosmetic issue you shouldn't have to have your instrument devalued simply because Conn didn't do it right in the first place. I would not be satisfied with a re-lacquer without the underlying issue resolved. You paid for a well made instrument, not someone's attempt to make one "close enough." If Conn is unwilling to stand behind their workmanship I'd want a refund.

[Blenky]

Thanks all, have referred the problem to Conn via the retailer and asked for a replacement as this will likely just keep recurring. Might go for an 88HT if they agree.

Really appreciate all of the advice from you guys.

[Bach42t]

I had my King 2103PLG (3B+) refinished under warranty and just about the last year of the warranty. No acid bleed but I had grease spots under the finish. Took 3 months almost to a T, they did an excellent job. I absolutely cannot tell it was refinished.

[Blenky]

Referred the 88H under warranty and they looked at the pics and as it’s the second occurrence they just offered a replacement. All happened very quickly, so full marks to Conn for this!

I blew about 10 88H’s and 5 HT’s last weekend and after about 3 hours came away with a great sounding 88HT which seems to match the 88H and has a slightly better lower register.

I’m one happy bunny!

Thanks to all those who responded

[Bach42t]

Referred the 88H under warranty and they looked at the pics and as it’s the second occurrence they just offered a replacement. All happened very quickly, so full marks to Conn for this!

I blew about 10 88H’s and 5 HT’s last weekend and after about 3 hours came away with a great sounding 88HT which seems to match the 88H and has a slightly better lower register.

I’m one happy bunny!

Thanks to all those who responded

I will say this, having lots of experience with Conn-Selmer products, they are super-responsive and provide excellent customer service. I trust their warranty, however, I realize that it might be the case that I have to use it more than others. It is great that you were able to find that many new 88Hs to try and walk away with the lucky pick of the litter.