What makes the bass trombone challenging to learn?

[Backbone]

I hope to get all of your input on what you think makes the bass trombone challenging to learn. Let's keep it to a singular aspect per post along with your personal reason why and how you think that challenge can be overcome. This does not mean you cannot post multiple aspects, I'd just like to see them as separate posts. Redundant aspects are highly welcome as I feel they will highlight a consensus on certain aspects, while adding multiple points of view on tackling that aspect.

I'll go first.

Weight:
The weight of the horn can pose problems with the length of practice time, especially for older players. I seem to have to put the horn down many more times than I had to do with a straight tenor. I feel if I could keep the horn to face longer, I'd excel at a more rapid pace.

To solve this problem, I have gone to a neotech brace. But i need more and will be trying an ErgoBone.

Alright, your turn!

[Burgerbob]

The energy expended to play it compared to almost any other wind instrument.

[WilliamLang]

intonation with two valves - completely different than single valve and straight tenor horns!

but also agree with weight...

[micka572]

The expended energy, I don't think so...
Look at Martin Schippers playing stereogram on YouTube, it look so effortless, not everyone can play like that but I think it's the goal.

[BGuttman]

Different sound concept. A Bass should not sound like a tenor or a tenor like a bass.

Not only that, but the Bass needs to have different sounds depending on where it's playing. Proper sound for a Symphony will be out of place in the Jazz Band. And if you are playing in a Brass Band they often want you to sound like a raging chainsaw.

[imsevimse]

Hi. Air seams to be the challenge. It is notable when there are loud sustained notes on the valve. Until I can circular breath effortlessly I have to cut those long notes or find ways to breath that does not have negative effect on the music. Sometimes a pause to breathe does not effect the much but sometimes it does. I played an arrangement before christmas where I had a lot of sustained low c's the whole last page of the piece. It ended with a sustained double whole note c with a fermata, only basstrombone and tenor saxophone. The rest of the band had finished earlier. That note was a struggle to hold.

[afugate]

Many amateurs use a loose/collapsed embouchure to play low on tenor. That kind of playing doesn't translate well to the bass trombone. The result is weak sounds, wildly varying pitch/intonation, terrible articulation, and difficulty sustaining notes because the embouchure is so inefficient. (Note: It also didn't sound good on tenor!)

Ask me how I know...

A couple of lessons with Doug Elliott put me on the right path.

--Andy in OKC

[tbonesullivan]

Air control is much more of an issue with a bass than a tenor, especially in the very low range. The wider embouchure at that range means you can easily blow all your air out. Like with a tuba, you need to learn to "slow down" the air at that register.

Also, gaining full use of the double valves is something that many, including myself, skimp on, as in the orchestral literature, I rarely get a chance to use even the lower F-attachment register.

[Backbone]

Great responses so far. Keep them coming!

Also, dont forget to include how you tackle the issues you have listed.

[Burgerbob]

The expended energy, I don't think so...
Look at Martin Schippers playing stereogram on YouTube, it look so effortless, not everyone can play like that but I think it's the goal.

Yes, of course. But it's a difficult path to get to that point!

[dbwhitaker]

I agree with everyone who said "air". At least that's the thing that most constrains my practicing at this point in terms of "horn to face" time. I've been trying to do Alan Raph's daily low tone routine and it takes me about 5 minutes per note at 75bpm because I spend 2/3 of time resting to catch my breath. (Maybe it warrants a separate thread about how to improve air control in the lower register.)

[hyperbolica]

All the other topics are great, especially weight and air. The one I don't think anyone has addressed is boredom. 80% of the time, bass bone parts are just boring, especially when compared to tenor parts. Sometimes a part comes along that makes bass fun to play, but most of the time not. You don't always get to choose your music or your parts.

I didn't come to the bass willingly, for me it was take up bass or see my favorite group fold. Sometimes it's hard to see why people feel attracted to the instrument. It's physically hard to play, and the musical rewards are much rarer than they are with tenor. I'm never really motivated to practice bass in the same way that I'm never really motivated to go outside and fill my wheel barrow up with rocks and run it around the yard.

[Kdanielsen]

This probably makes me a stick-in-the-mud or something, but it seems to me that thinking about all the things that are "hard" about the bass trombone is only going to make it harder. It also seems like a list of excuses.

But I'll play by the rules: learning the bass trombone is challenging because it's so easy to play very very loud by mistake (being serious I promise. The thing is a cannon).

I'll also break the rules: learning the bass trombone is not challenging because the parts are all low! You almost never miss partials. Yeah, I know sometimes the parts are high, but 90% of the time they aren't. I'm not talking about Jim Markey's most recent CD or whatever, I'm talking about ensemble music. Playing bass for me is so much less stressful than tenor in that regard.

Why am I making this point? Because dealing with our mental state is a huge part of studying an instrument. Negativity is poison to honest music making.

[Backbone]

This probably makes me a stick-in-the-mud or something, but it seems to me that thinking about all the things that are "hard" about the bass trombone is only going to make it harder. It also seems like a list of excuses.

But I'll play by the rules: learning the bass trombone is challenging because it's so easy to play very very loud by mistake (being serious I promise. The thing is a cannon).

I'll also break the rules: learning the bass trombone is not challenging because the parts are all low! You almost never miss partials. Yeah, I know sometimes the parts are high, but 90% of the time they aren't. I'm not talking about Jim Markey's most recent CD or whatever, I'm talking about ensemble music. Playing bass for me is so much less stressful than tenor in that regard.

Why am I making this point? Because dealing with our mental state is a huge part of studying an instrument. Negativity is poison to honest music making.

I appreciate your point of view, but I carefully worded the topic to be "challenging" and not "hard." I actually thought on that and made a change in wording because I did not want it to seem negative. Also, I was hoping to get everyone's input on how they overcame or are overcoming the "challenges" found in bassbone playing. I guess I thought it could become a resource for people who are facing the same challenges.

I used to play tenor and after about 15 - 20 years of not playing, I found myself with a bass. I have to say that it has been a challenge to play in the lower register for me. May not have been for you, but I found hitting low Eb as a challenge. But with consistent effort it became easier. The next challenge was air. Then low C's and B's - pedals. Then I realized weight was another "challenge".

These are not negatives for me. They are realities faced everyday I pick up the horn. I have thought of many ways to overcome these "challenges." I mean, the Bass trombone is a challenging instrument - and a whole lot of fun to play in my opinion!

So I hope that this thread is not about negativity but about the positivity of overcoming any challenges faced in playing the Bass trombone and become a resource to help others do the same.

[braymond21]

One challenge I've come across with bass is range. As mentioned before, low range can be difficult but I find high range even more difficult. We're expected to have the a similar range to tenor trombones which can be hard to handle having to play down to low pedal tones all the way up to many ledger lines above the staff. The horn and mouthpiece also favor low notes (obviously) so when I'm expected to play parts up to high Ab and Bb with the tenors, and later down to low D and below with tubas, it can be a challenge.

[smithr]

Blowing enough air with a strong embouchure and playing with good intonation. Making sure the mouthpiece is not too big for the amateur.

Also I have used the Ergobone for approximately 9-10 years. I have Parkinson's Disease and the Ergobone is allowing me to continue to play. I am tremor dominant and its on the right side. The support I get using the Ergobone on the left side allows me to be more relaxed with the right arm/wrist. It's like this: the less I have to think about the right side the less the tremor. In fact the tremor goes away. I was diagnosed in August 2012 but the neurologist thinks I have had this for many years. I am 65 years old and have been playing bass trombone October 1969

[Mikebmiller]

I have bought and sold 3 basses over the years and finally decided that I am not a bass player. I never could get notes below about a D to really speak. I could play them, but not with authority. So I am content to be a half decent tenor player and I really enjoy playing my small bore in jazz band.

[Kbiggs]

The challenges are always musical. Otherwise they are just interference, noise, or distraction from the purpose: to make music. Focusing on the specific technical challenges of playing bass trombone is important so we know what we’re dealing with with. But it’s more important to solve the problems musically than technically.

If the instrument is too heavy, find a way to hold it with a grip aide of some sort. If it’s out of balance, figure out a way to get the instrument in balance. Lift weights so you can play it. Practice blowing air away from the instrument so that when you go to play, the air portion is not quite as difficult. Overcome the technical challenges so they don’t distract from the music.

I have bought and sold 3 basses over the years and finally decided that I am not a bass player. I never could get notes below about a D to really speak. I could play them, but not with authority. So I am content to be a half decent tenor player and I really enjoy playing my small bore in jazz band.

I like this. I have the opposite situation. I’m more a natural bass player and 2nd trombonist that a small horn or principal player. Show off your strengths, and work on your weaknesses in the practice room.

[GBP]

I must disagree Kbiggs that the challenges are always musical. Many times to get to the music, a player must develop or refine a particular aspect of playing. Arbans was a master at this and brass players have a great resource because of it. Stars Wars also comes to mind. Musically, it is easy to make sense of the lines that the trombones play, but technically the tonguing requires a higher level of speed than normally required of the section. I spent some time with (Ha!) Arbans working through the multiple tongue section before approaching the music. Analyze the specific challenge(s), isolate and fix. Now one is ready to focus on creating music. I believe this approach goes a long way into making the playing sound effortless. Once a player has control, they are better able to execute the music they are hearing in their head.

[marccromme]

Range is challenging, especially connecting high range with pedals. In the big band scores were are playing, 4th bone goes sometimes up to 10th partial d ( middle treble clef as piano right hand), 8th partial bb is frequently seen. And pedals down to FF, or even Eb. Only thing helping me connecting these extreme ranges are relaxed flexibility exercises.

Weight and air is not as bad as Eb tuba, so I manage. Key is efficient use of air in low range, which is about training slow air and efficient sound production. And relaxing...

[Kevbach33]

Maintaining my concept of sound is the biggest challenge for me aside from strength and the quantities of air it takes. My Besson wants to be big and dark all the time, almost slide-tuba-like, especially if I've been playing a lot of small tenor.

A 1 1/2G sized mouthpiece gets me on the right track to combat it's tendencies, as well as having an ideal big band sound in my head to begin with. I never really played bass trombone in a Symphonic setting (was a tuba player).

[Kbiggs]

I must disagree Kbiggs that the challenges are always musical. Many times to get to the music, a player must develop or refine a particular aspect of playing. Arbans was a master at this and brass players have a great resource because of it. Stars Wars also comes to mind. Musically, it is easy to make sense of the lines that the trombones play, but technically the tonguing requires a higher level of speed than normally required of the section. I spent some time with (Ha!) Arbans working through the multiple tongue section before approaching the music. Analyze the specific challenge(s), isolate and fix. Now one is ready to focus on creating music. I believe this approach goes a long way into making the playing sound effortless. Once a player has control, they are better able to execute the music they are hearing in their head.

I think I see what you’re saying: a player first needs to overcome technical challenges in order to play a piece of music. While this is true—you can’t play some pieces without mastering or having made significant progress in tonguing, slide technique, intonation, etc.—my point is that we must allow technique to inform music, not the other way around. Yes, we MUST practice various aspects of technique. But I believe—my opinion—is that technique isn’t what we play—those are exercises and etudes, the things that we play to improve, things we play for our teachers to note our progress. When we play in public, we play music, and that’s what we musicians and audience members want to hear. Not technique.

I believe we’re saying the same thing, just coming at it from opposite sides. Maybe, maybe not...

[GBP]

I am not saying technique first then music. What I am saying is both must be addressed if one is going to be able to perform music at a high level. One must address the physical challenges in addition to the challenges in the music.

[Tooloud]

The greatest challenge playing bass trombone: Boredom...

Most of the time I spend counting rests. Often I even count how many times I have just repeated the same phrase.

In rehearsals it's quite normal that, when I have just counted thirty bars of rest or so, I take my breath - and the director stops, just to repeat the part that I have just counted out...

Most of the time the bass trombone part ist not as low as we would like. The bread and butter range is the middle and upper range.

Of course, it's fun to play the bass trombone on your own, when you can optimize the transit between pedal and double valve register or make the pedal sound like music not like indecent noise.
But most of the time it's just about counting rests.

That's the reason, why I don't usually practise my bass trombone parts. (SHAME!!)

Instead, I play every day, really each and every day, at least two hours - french horn!
Though I only have the chance to play the that in an amateur ensemble, it widens my musical horizon, teaches me to read music in various transpositions, play more notes at a time than any trombone ever will, gave me the lip trill - well, kind of... - strengthens my upper register on trombone, in general: I've become a better musician than when I was just a trombonist.

Of course: When there is an important performance ahead, I concentrate on trombone at least three days before the last rehearsal. But normally that's enough when you have studied that instrument most of your lifetime.

Because: A bass trombone is just another trombone, not an instrument of its own kind and should not be treated as something different. So matching the sound of the other trombones when playing unisono in the higher register is the other challenging aspect of the bass.

[imsevimse]

The greatest challenge playing bass trombone: Boredom...

Most of the time I spend counting rests. Often I even count how many times I have just repeated the same phrase.

In rehearsals it's quite normal that, when I have just counted thirty bars of rest or so, I take my breath - and the director stops, just to repeat the part that I have just counted out...
....

Lol

I have been a tenor trombone player most of my life. I bought my first bass trombone 1989. The last ten years my bass trombone has been more asked for.

I like the role the bass has in the ensamble. I play most in big bands and there I have much to do, as much as the other players.

Counting rests happens a lot in symphony orchestras, but it goes for both tenor and bass trombonists

/Tom