Hello everybody, I am curious as to what you guys do for mouthpiece buzzing. Do you have a routine (flexibility, articulations, etc.) , or do you guys buzz music (rochut etudes, music, etc.)? Also, I have a Buzzard by Warburton and a Buzz-R by Markus Arnold, should I spend my time buzzing on those devices or MP alone? Thank you guys!
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:07 pm
by WilliamLang
personally, i recommend mouthpiece alone.
my old buzzing routine was simple partial flexibility and articulation exercises focusing on the mid and low ranges with piano for pitch reference. 5 minutes mostly, sometimes streching to 10 at first until the buzzing felt natural. never buzzed full pieces either, would rather spend that time on the horn.
i eventually moved past buzzing everyday, and now just use it as a spot checking tool for tricky passages in solos or for orchestral literature.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:08 pm
by Bach5G
A bit of a can of worms.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:01 pm
by tbonesullivan
Bach5G wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:08 pm
A bit of a can of worms.
Yeah, you can say that again.
For me, I just use it as a pre-horn warmup, to get my lips used to buzzing. I don't free buzz, and only with the mouthpiece.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:12 pm
by harrisonreed
Let's do this! Can of worms open!
A trombone is a system that includes the player and the mouthpiece and a huge long tube that changes length. When you play it, it locks you into a harmonic overtone series that is dictated by the length of the tube and to a much lesser extent, the bore size. These two things dictate the length and amount of air that you have to send a pressure wave through, and the length/period of the wave as it goes through the tube is the pitch you are playing. When you go to seventh position, you change the length of the tube and this changes the length and period of the pressure wave. The pitch changes. You can also change the frequency of the wave by changing the speed and direction of the air that drives the pressure wave with your tongue and embouchure. This is different from buzzing. It's got to do with the angle and speed your air enters the mouthpiece cup and then how that interacts with 8 to 12 feet of enclosed air under the effects of a vibrating pressure wave. Those changes give you access to different harmonics within the harmonic series. That pressure wave, or "perceived resistance" pushes back on your air and embouchure and completes or at least heavily influences what most teachers would call a buzz. It's a complex system. We learn not to change the pitch with our face and to use the slide to adjust pitch because we all know the slide will give a pure harmonic, but fighting the harmonic into pitch with our face will give us a bad sound.
The mouthpiece is a three inch long tube with three inches of air. It offers almost no "perceived resistance" because the speed, volume and direction of air it would take to "complete" your harmonic and create a vibrating pressure wave would be incredible. It has a harmonic series, but a mouthpiece buzz doesn't actually access it. It also can't change length. It's a mouthpiece. So, to create a buzz sound, resistance had to come from somewhere. This somewhere is tension. Tension in your embouchure, in your air, in your torso. Then you get a buzz. Not a true harmonic, but a buzz. Like a kazoo. That's why you can gliss through every pitch without a break point on a mouthpiece -- you never had a harmonic to begin with, and you're kazooing. This is kind of like changing pitch on a trombone without moving the slide and just using your face. Except with a lot more tension.
I won't actually knock buzzing... But what on Earth can that help you accomplish? I'll respond to the obvious answer "it helps students use more air". Wha? That's what your teacher told you. There is no way buzzing on a three inch long tube with artificial resistance is related to moving air through an 8 foot tube with actual resistance from the air vibrating inside it.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:38 pm
by Burgerbob
Buzzing isn't like playing trombone... but it sure helps me work on things, sometimes.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:27 pm
by norbie2018
Roger Bobo has a buzzing routine in his warm up book which is based on a Stamp exercise. He recommends doing it daily, at the beginning of your playing, to help bring clarity to the sound. He also recommends not over doing it, just a couple of times daily if you wish.
Does it work to bring clarity? I just incorporated it into my playing about a month ago, so I'm not sure. I didn't record myself something to use as a baseline, so I'll probably never know for certain.
I do recall someone referring to buzzing as aspirin - use it in your playing to work out hitches.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:43 pm
by GabrielRice
I do a variation on Mike Roylance's routine from this book: amismusicalcircle.com/library/bk-005.htm
Essentially, it's the Jacobs melody, which covers an octave plus a step on either side, starting in the lower middle register and going down to the low pedal register by half steps. My variation is to keep expanding it so that by the end I'm covering from pedal F to C above middle C. That may seem like a lot, but I take care to go easy and work on connecting the registers seamlessly without forcing anything.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:15 pm
by sirisobhakya
Some do it, some don’t. Some who do it do fine, some who don’t do it do just as fine. I think there is some correlation, but not 100%.
For me, I rarely mouthpiece buzz, to the point that I almost cannot teach newcomer students. My sound with mouthpiece is very thin it is hardly audible. however that seems not to be the case with my sound on the full horn, according to many bandmates and teachers.
I normally avoid freebuzzing. I share the same belief as my teacher/former school band director that it encourages closing lips together, resulting in resistance and somewhat “flatter/more nasal” sound. We have seen some professionals who come to teach at our school doing this, and all of them have such sound, so I think this theory is quite credible.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:04 pm
by baileyman
What harrisonreed said.
I wish buzzing seemed like a great help. It would be so convenient.
Trombone seems more like running a motorcycle over the tops of little dirt hills peak to peak. Or skate skiing. Or juggling. Neither piece buzzing or free buzzing seem to resemble those. Buzzing feels more like weightlifting than dancing.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:12 am
by Rusty
I don’t do much, if any, mouthpiece buzzing as I always feel it stuffs up my embouchure on the actual horn.
I do like taking off the outer slide and buzzing the top tube or ‘leadpipe’. This resonates at roughly a Db and the resistance feels much closer to the full horn. I’ve used breath attacks in this manner to achieve a good balance between the air and my lips as a warm up. I first heard about it going through an adaptation of the Adams trumpet routine.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:39 am
by harrisonreed
Rusty wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:12 am
I don’t do much, if any, mouthpiece buzzing as I always feel it stuffs up my embouchure on the actual horn.
I do like taking off the outer slide and buzzing the top tube or ‘leadpipe’. This resonates at roughly a Db and the resistance feels much closer to the full horn. I’ve used breath attacks in this manner to achieve a good balance between the air and my lips as a warm up. I first heard about it going through an adaptation of the Adams trumpet routine.
It's also how you play the opening movement of the Jan Sandström trombone Concerto 2 "Don Quixote"!
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:27 am
by Pre59
baileyman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:04 pm
Buzzing feels more like weightlifting than dancing.
Exactly! A show of hands please from all those who go to the gym, or use a exercise bicycle, etc..
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:26 am
by norbie2018
So, can buzzing be seen as cross training for brass instruments and used accordingly?
baileyman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:04 pm
Buzzing feels more like weightlifting than dancing.
Exactly! A show of hands please from all those who go to the gym, or use a exercise bicycle, etc..
norbie2018 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:26 am
So, can buzzing be seen as cross training for brass instruments and used accordingly?
You don't need to lift weights for the tiniest, weakest muscles in your body, like trying to strengthen the muscles that move your pinky toe with weights. It's a fine motor skill, not a power lifting event.
Exactly! A show of hands please from all those who go to the gym, or use a exercise bicycle, etc..
norbie2018 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:26 am
So, can buzzing be seen as cross training for brass instruments and used accordingly?
You don't need to lift weights for the tiniest, weakest muscles in your body, like trying to strengthen the muscles that move your pinky toe with weights. It's a fine motor skill, not a power lifting event.
But that doesn't answer the question as to whether or not it can be used as training that would enhance your playing.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:25 am
by Bonearzt
This subject has been regurgitated about as many times as arguing about slide lube!!!!
There are MANY of us that believe in and practice mouthpiece and free buzzing regularly! And I, for one, find it extremely helpful as a warm-up on my way to a rehearsal or gig.
And, there are those that do not advocate for buzzing, finding that after TRYING IT, it wasn't for them.
Then there are those that haven't tried or haven't had good info for trying that bash for no other reason than to irritate!!!
If it works FOR YOU , then do it! IF it does not work FOR YOU, then don't!! But DO NOT try to convince others against it!!!
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:37 am
You don't need to lift weights for the tiniest, weakest muscles in your body, like trying to strengthen the muscles that move your pinky toe with weights. It's a fine motor skill, not a power lifting event.
But that doesn't answer the question as to whether or not it can be used as training that would enhance your playing.
An interesting exercise was suggested to me by an LA pro that feels related to buzzing. It's basically a long tone with diminishing mouthpiece pressure (while keeping a seal), then accumulating pressure, until the air runs out. Do it in time.
I have found that the same idea can apply to other exercises. So somewhere in the middle of flexies I'll do some pressure diminishment and restoration. Interesting things happen.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:54 am
by norbie2018
Buzzing is also a form of aural training, although similar results can be accomplished by singing melodies using solfege for instance.
I already stated I use the Bobo/Stamp routine. I'd be interested to hear about other routines as well.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:40 am
by reytrombone65
Thank you all for your input, but I am simply looking for routines/exercises. MP buzzing works well for me, I am just curious as to what everyone who DOES buzz do.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:50 am
by AndrewMeronek
When I used to buzz, I remember primarily three things:
Buzzing through melodies.
Some range building via slow slurs.
Starting and ending pitches to make sure that there is no pitch deviation when the buzz starts and ends.
Probably the most useful is that last one I listed.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:19 am
by Basbasun
My buzzing routins has gone throuth lots of changes over the years, I think have used all buzz routins there is.
For now I start with a short melodie, first I sing it, nex I free buzz it, next I buzz it in the mouthpiece, then I play it on the horn.
Sometimes I do a test, I play a tone on first position on the horn, while keeping the air flow and embouchure and contact on the mouth, I take the mpc out of the horn, most often there is just airflow no buzz. I do the same with just the mpc, buzz a tone and take the mpc of my mouth, there will be no buzz, just air.
Singing, free buzz, mpc buzz and trombone playing are 4 ways to play that melodie.
Still I am sure about some benefits of bouth free buzzing and mpc buzzing.
No there is more acoustic matter to the the trombone then just the lengt. If you are the least curious about it, try to play regular partial series on a PVC pipe..
Sorry I lost the last important part. If you are intersted in the physics of brass there is plenty of info on the net.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:17 am
by sungfw
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:12 pm
Let's do this! Can of worms open!
[Blah, blah, blah]
There's so much misinformation and unadulterated bovine excrement in that post that I don't know where to even begin to respond, so I won't.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:35 am
by timothy42b
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:12 pm
There is no way buzzing on a three inch long tube with artificial resistance is related to moving air through an 8 foot tube with actual resistance from the air vibrating inside it.
There is resistance to air flowing through a duct, and that may not relate to the perceived resistance of a sound wave moving through a duct. I've not seen the psychology of this discussed.
Be that as it may, if we're talking about air flow, my experiments suggest almost none of it comes from the 8 foot tube. I've done some quick and dirty DIY manometer measurements using a tube inside my mouth and a tube in a tee past the mouthpiece. Pretty much all the resistance to flow occurs between mouth and end of mouthpiece - past the mouthpiece the trombone is pretty much at ambient pressure.
I did not measure if the resistance was primarily at lip aperture versus mouthpiece throat - didn't have an old mouthpiece to drill to check that.
Pre59 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:27 am
You don't need to lift weights for the tiniest, weakest muscles in your body, like trying to strengthen the muscles that move your pinky toe with weights. It's a fine motor skill, not a power lifting event.
Not weights but... poke
Runners like strong feet.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:43 am
by VJOFan
To directly reply the original post... do you have or what is your routine? Not, is buzzing valuable?
When I am practicing (and when i did practice a lot) the buzzing was mainly a warm up involving glissing about a fifth, up and down three times then moving the starting note up a semi tone and repeating until I reached the absolute extremes of my range. I found this helpful in connecting my registers (pivots, shifts) and securing my higher register.
It is also something that helps me play the horn as if it doesn't have a lot of resistance or slots where the partials break. It feels more like singing.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:08 am
by Pre59
reytrombone65 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:34 pm
Hello everybody, I am curious as to what you guys do for mouthpiece buzzing. Do you have a routine (flexibility, articulations, etc.) , or do you guys buzz music (rochut etudes, music, etc.)?
I've had a Buzzard for a long time now and use it it daily, and have found it beneficial overall. It seems to have a slight pitch centred around Bb and I tend to play it around the degrees of the Bb scale and harmonic series, having checked with a tuner first. That's not to say that you can't play in sharp keys, but I don't, YMMV. Also after the top Bb/B, there's a kind of break where the blow seems to change, and I tend to avoid playing past there.
I use it mainly for a pre warm-up, playing air notes, long and short, intervals and all usually at a softer volume.
Also I take it on holiday with my m/p and a tuning fork, to help get back in the saddle faster upon my return..
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:32 am
by norbie2018
I almost forgot: I used to use a B.E.R.P. as part of my routine. I'd sing on solfege a Cimera melody, then B.E.R.P. it, then played it. It did allot for efficient air usage, ear training, slide coordination, and ease of production. I don't really know why I got away from it as it was really beneficial - for me, except that I wanted to try buzzing with the mp alone.
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:12 pm
Let's do this! Can of worms open!
[Blah, blah, blah]
There's so much misinformation and unadulterated bovine excrement in that post that I don't know where to even begin to respond, so I won't.
You could try. I'll do my best to dig into the physics of brass instruments (other people's work, definitely not mine) to prove that nothing I wrote is misinformation.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:15 pm
by norbie2018
But the dude wasn't seeking your take on the world of buzzing, he was simply seeking buzzing routines. There's that old Dr John song "I Was In the Right Place, But It Must Been the Wrong Time".
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:23 pm
by harrisonreed
norbie2018 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:15 pm
But the dude wasn't seeking your take on the world of buzzing, he was simply seeking buzzing routines. There's that old Dr John song "I Was In the Right Place, But It Must Been the Wrong Time".
reytrombone65 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:34 pm
Hello everybody, I am curious as to what you guys do for mouthpiece buzzing.
norbie2018 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:15 pm
But the dude wasn't seeking your take on the world of buzzing, he was simply seeking buzzing routines. There's that old Dr John song "I Was In the Right Place, But It Must Been the Wrong Time".
reytrombone65 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:34 pm
Hello everybody, I am curious as to what you guys do for mouthpiece buzzing.
Seemed pretty open ended to me!
Only if you deliberately ignore the substance of the OP:
reytrombone65 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:34 pm
Hello everybody, I am curious as to what you guys do for mouthpiece buzzing. Do you have a routine (flexibility, articulations, etc.) , or do you guys buzz music (rochut etudes, music, etc.)? Also, I have a Buzzard by Warburton and a Buzz-R by Markus Arnold, should I spend my time buzzing on those devices or MP alone? Thank you guys!
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:28 am
by Pre59
There's a big difference between "what" and "why" in my reality.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:20 am
by BGuttman
I'm not an avid buzzer. I use buzzing as a way to get the lips ready to play. I'll buzz in the car en-route to the gig, or as a first thing before starting that warmup note. I do long tones and "sirens". I don't use buzzing as much of a technique builder. Sometimes when I can't seem to get the lips to vibrate I'll cover part of the end of the mouthpiece with a finger to increase back pressure. In this case I'll use buzzing to see when I don't need the enhanced pressure to get a buzz. At that point I feel like I'm ready to play.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:21 am
by Kdanielsen
Here is my routine as of about a year ago, if anybody is interested. I made this handout for my students. It's changed subtly but not too much.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:26 am
by hyperbolica
I use buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing for specific things:
Free buzzing increases strength and greatly adds to high range. I only use it a couple of minutes at a time, and mostly when I need to play, but can't (in the car on a way to a gig). It wears you out quickly. Sometimes I use another instrument to check the pitch of my buzz for the reason below. I should note that my buzz is oddly high. I can't buzz low. Likewise, I struggle to play low pedals (I'm reliable down to pedal G). They are probably related issues. But at the same time, I have a far better high range than I deserve for the amount of practice that I do, so I don't mess with the situation. I use the extreme high range more than the extreme low.
Mouthpiece buzzing I use to make sure the sound I'm trying to make is the sound I'm making. Check pitch as mouthpiece enters horn. I've had trouble with buzzing higher than the pitch I'm trying to make, which leads to playing very sharp and cracking notes. Mouthpiece buzzing again is something I don't do much of, since it gets a lot of spit on my shirt, and it doesn't serve much other purpose.
So freebuzzing for strength and high range, and mouthpiece buzzing to check buzz pitch relative to horn pitch. A couple minutes a day tops.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:40 am
by Basbasun
My mouthpiece buzzing embouchure does not work exactly the same as my embouchure on the horn. So the pitch on mpc buzz is not the same as the horn buzz. Neither is my free buzzing the same as the mpc buzzing.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:59 pm
by Thrawn22
Scales, intervals, slurs. Any basic maintenance routines can be used as buzzing exercises. Just don't over do it, use too much pressure, or rely on it instead of practice.
After i buzz, i do longtones. I buzz to warm up my ears for pitch purposes, then i do long tones to reinforce pitch and get my air working.
Some people don't buzz. Some do.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:44 am
by Inspector71
I had the good fortune to study with Arnold Jacobs several times in the mid to late 90's before his death.
While he was considered the formost authority on buzzing, among other things, I am certainly not any type of authority...but I did learn a lot!
Jake was not a big fan of formalized drills on the mpc. in working with me. It was always "tune-based" melodies. Simple song like folk tunes and childhood melodies all the way to passages that gave issues in whatever music you were working on.
It is a simple tool to get thoughts off mechanics and on musical product. Is it different from playing the horn...absolutely. It is the "strangness" factor of the process away from the instrument that benefits the player.
It also helps gets the production process focused on/at the lips.....not behind the lips, where most of us run into trouble.
Some like it...some don't
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:26 am
by Bach5G
I buzz along with whatever is on my car radio.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:59 am
by Jimkinkella
Bonearzt wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:25 am
If it works FOR YOU , then do it! IF it does not work FOR YOU, then don't!! But DO NOT try to convince others against it!!!
Yup
Personally I do a little bit of of a variation on Remington.
FWIW I usually use a mouthpiece on a leadpipe.
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:13 am
by Ted
Maybe it's just me but.
I could never free buzz, could buzz a single note but not melodies or scales. My sound wasn't that great either. After some years with a different teacher my sound opened up, and now I can free buzz a lot better!
Re: Mouthpiece buzzing routines?
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:38 am
by ddickerson
You can buzz your MP with a piano for tuning purposes. If you buzz the correct pitch, and have your slide in the correct position, you achieve your best tone. So, you're asking which exercises to do with MP buzzing? My recommendation is tuning.
