Transitioning to larger mouthpiece

[PaulT]

Horn: Yamaha 620 (.547)

Experience: Started playing again almost two years ago after a thirty-year layoff. Practice regularly and am taking lessons from a grad student at nearby university.

Mouthpiece progression to date: Yamaha 48, Yamaha 51C4, Bach 6.5 AL

Present situation: I am getting pretty close to moving to a Bach 5G. I like the sound. I like the 6.5 as well (and the 51C4 and the 48; every mouthpiece I've used has aspects I like). But, the 5G sounds really good. It can do what the others do plus it offers a little more depth and richness. I believe it is where I will be going next.

Quandary: I have been flipping back and forth between the 6.5 AL and the 5G. I would make the switch to the 5G right now no questions but there are a couple pieces we will be doing during an upcoming concert a little over two weeks from now, Circus Bee and Lassus Trombone (Fillmore), that have speedy runs in them that are about all I can handle. While I can do them with the 5G, the runs are just cleaner and crisper and sound better with the 6.5. And while I can play as high as I need to with the 5G, my endurance is better with the 6.5 (we're doing Sabre and Spurs, Sousa, and that takes all I have on high end, especially if it is near the end of the concert).

Question: Do I switch cold turkey and hope my chops have adapted to the 5G by concert time? Do I wait until I have three or four weeks of low pressure off time to make the transition? Do I stick with the 6.5 until I can play the 5G just as quickly and crisply on fast runs? Do you make the move on potential or do you wait until the new guy wins top to bottom across the entire board? Stick with the 'Me' today or invest in the 'Me' tomorrow?

(I have talked the fellow I'm taking lessons with about this. I'm just interested in your experiences and having a forum discussion)

[Noahharry]

Switch after the concert when you have no responsibilities playing wise in the near future. Never change equipment right before a concert/performance/audition. Just my opinion though.

[Bassbonechandler]

Switch after the concert when you have no responsibilities playing wise in the near future. Never change equipment right before a concert/performance/audition. Just my opinion though.

Also to add to this, I think that if the 5g is working better for you, try using it with no back and forth for a couple weeks.

[Doug Elliott]

Make a switch only if it's a clear improvement in every way... and it's not.

[Bach5G]

Make a switch only if it's a clear improvement in every way... and it's not.

I wonder how many of us followed this advice.

[harrisonreed]

I went through the same mouthpiece progression that nearly everyone goes through, and in retrospect, I think that "progression" is not the right way to think about it, or tp go about it. It implies that bigger mouthpieces are better and what you're supposed to move to. And then we get locked into the idea that the bach sizes are what we can "progress" through. If we play denis wick or schilke, we still compare it to the bach series, and these series work basically the same way. You get a rim size with a cup that matches up to it and gets bigger as the rim gets bigger. Maybe you can get a version with a different backbore. Maybe. I think all of these thoughts on "progression" are no bueno.

I wish I had worked to a point where I felt the mouthpiece was holding me back, on whatever medium sized mouthpiece I had, 6.5AL, 7C, whatever. And I wish I had seen a teacher who could have looked at my playing and embouchure and told me "you are playing a mouthpiece that is way too small. Your face actually would function better inside a 1.5G. But! Don't move to a Bach 1.5G because that mouthpiece won't work well on tenor. Everything but the rim is far too large for tenor on a 1.5G. You need to think of the rim and the mouthpiece as two separate things."

There's a correct rim size that let's your face move around just enough to play the full range without having to do excessive shifts. I don't think you progress into it. It might be smaller in diameter than a Bach 5G.

Separately, there are different cup shapes and backbores that can help you sound or play the way you want, independently from the rim.

Am I saying that everyone should get a lesson from someone who knows and find the right rim size, and then build the rest of the mouthpiece off of that rim? Yep. It's that big of a deal. Especially if you feel like you need to progress into a different, more "advanced" mouthpiece. Every mouthpiece it's just a tool, best suited for a certain player, playing a certain type of music, on a certain instrument. There's no real progression, especially as an adult.

[baileyman]

Horn: Yamaha 620 (.547)

Experience: Started playing again almost two years ago after a thirty-year layoff. ...

Similar experience suggests discriminating between mouthpieces, horns, horn parts, metals, lacquers, et al, may require a bit more time. Perhaps try ten years.

[tbonesullivan]

I would stick with the 6.5 AL. It's a great mouthpiece, and useful for a lot of different pieces. Learn to make the sound broad and deep with that mouthpiece. With a .525 bore instrument, I sometimes feel that the 5G is a bit too big in the throat and cup. I didn't like how the 5G worked for my 640, which is the same horn with an F-attachment. I then tried a Hammond 11ML, which was described to be as like a 6 1/2 AL with a bit wider rim.

[Burgerbob]

I would stick with the 6.5 AL. It's a great mouthpiece, and useful for a lot of different pieces. Learn to make the sound broad and deep with that mouthpiece. With a .525 bore instrument, I sometimes feel that the 5G is a bit too big in the throat and cup. I didn't like how the 5G worked for my 640, which is the same horn with an F-attachment. I then tried a Hammond 11ML, which was described to be as like a 6 1/2 AL with a bit wider rim.

11ML is like a 4GS. A 13ML would be a bit larger 6.5AL.

[norbie2018]

The depth of an 11ML compares to a DE G cup, and the G cup is deeper than a Bach GS.

[Burgerbob]

The depth of an 11ML compares to a DE G cup, and the G cup is deeper than a Bach GS.

Yeah, my post is an approximation. No good Bach sizes of course.

The point is it's much larger than a 6.5 in every way.

[PaulT]

Just a little Yamaha housekeeping:

ysl-610 straight .547
ysl-620 f-attachment .547
ysl-630 straight .525
ysl-620 F-attachment .525

I have a 630 (straight .525) currently paired with a Bach 6.5 AL. It doesn't get a lot of playtime. (currently. who knows what the future will bring)

I have a 620 F-attachment (.547). This is the horn in question at the moment. I play it all the time.

And I have a Yamaha 891Z (.508) paired with Bach 6.5AL. If I weren't in a community band, it it were just me in the basement, it is probably the only horn I would play. But, I love the sound I get with the 620 as well, and I really like how well it works out for me in the band. So, it is the horn I spend the most practice time with, by a significant margin.

I have compared my 620 to my instructor's big Shires, and while the bore (.547) is the same, my 620 feels like a smaller, nimbler instrument and, for me, is an easier horn to fill and play (and it's lighter and more fun to play). I kind of wallow in his Shires, the thing feels huge. I really like my 620.

[tbonesullivan]

11ML is like a 4GS. A 13ML would be a bit larger 6.5AL.

This was regarding the small shank version, which has a different throat and backbore than the large shank version. The small shank version has a .265" throat, very close to the .261" throat of a 6 1/2 AL. It's the mouthpiece Karl himself suggested when I was looking for a 6 1/2 AL feel with a larger rim for my .525 bore horn.

[Burgerbob]

11ML is like a 4GS. A 13ML would be a bit larger 6.5AL.

This was regarding the small shank version, which has a different throat and backbore than the large shank version. The small shank version has a .265" throat, very close to the .261" throat of a 6 1/2 AL. It's the mouthpiece Karl himself suggested when I was looking for a 6 1/2 AL feel with a larger rim for my .525 bore horn.

OP is playing a large bore instrument.

[ArbanRubank]

Just a little Yamaha housekeeping:

ysl-610 straight .547
ysl-620 f-attachment .547
ysl-630 straight .525
ysl-620 F-attachment .5255

I have a 630 (straight .525) currently paired with a Bach 6.5 AL. It doesn't get a lot of playtime.

I have a 620 F-attachment. The horn in question at the moment. I play it all the time.

And I have a Yamaha 891Z (.508) paired with Bach 6.5AL. If I weren't in a community band, it it were just me in the basement, it is probably the only horn I would play. But, I love the sound I get with the 620 as well, and I really like how well it works out for me in the band. So, it is the horn I spend the most practice time with, by a significant margin.

I have compared by 620 to my instructor's big Shires, and while the bore (.547) is the same, my 620 feels like a smaller, nimbler instrument and, for me, is an easier horn to fill and play (and it's lighter and more fun to play). I kind of wallow in his Shires, the thing feels huge. I really like my 620.

I transitioned one of my mpcs on my Yamaha 620/f (.547) to about a size 58 (varies between that, a 57 & a 60 [haven't settled on just one yet - I need more time]). The other to a Bach 5G (sometimes a Peter Sullivan [a 6.5-ish size], but mostly the Bach 5G). I like the sound on each size of mpc and each has it's own purpose; with the horn sounding like a different horn on each mouthpiece. The 5G is nice for ballads, Rochut etudes and Arbans Fantasies. The 58 is nice for playing those same ballads & etudes down an octave (or two). Kinda makes a Yamaha 620/f an amazingly versatile horn for my use.

So my point is that - for me - it's all about the sound. I can make most any size mpc work from a technical standpoint if I dog it enough (each size having it's own set of strengths & weaknesses). But the sound I get with a given mouthpiece on that horn pretty much is what it is. I tend to judge everything by the sound I want, b/c I'm pretty comfortable on a fairly wide variety of sizes.

But my second point it - that is me. You might differ. So you should do what works for you.

[tbonesullivan]

OP is playing a large bore instrument.

Dangit, I always think the 620 is the straight .525. That's the 630.

[tbonesullivan]

I have a 630 (straight .525) currently paired with a Bach 6.5 AL. It doesn't get a lot of playtime. (currently. who knows what the future will bring)

I have a 620 F-attachment (.547). This is the horn in question at the moment. I play it all the time.

And I have a Yamaha 891Z (.508) paired with Bach 6.5AL. If I weren't in a community band, it it were just me in the basement, it is probably the only horn I would play. But, I love the sound I get with the 620 as well, and I really like how well it works out for me in the band. So, it is the horn I spend the most practice time with, by a significant margin.

I have compared my 620 to my instructor's big Shires, and while the bore (.547) is the same, my 620 feels like a smaller, nimbler instrument and, for me, is an easier horn to fill and play (and it's lighter and more fun to play). I kind of wallow in his Shires, the thing feels huge. I really like my 620.

The shires are built a bit "big". It also depends on the type of components that were used. The Yamaha 600-Series are relatively light, especially in the Bell section with F-attachment. The Tuning slide has no weight, and it's just put together nicely.

If you weren't aware, the Bell sections of the 610 and 630, and 620 and 640 are identical. The only differences are the slides. So you can, if you want, have a Straight .547" horn if you want, or you can use the .525 bore slide with Valved bell.

The mouthpiece issue, well, I use the same size mouthpiece on all of my tenor horns, which is the Hammond 11ML. I have no problem getting up to the F 6 lines up with it. It sounds like you work really well with the 6.5AL rim size, but want the darker broader sound you get from a 5G, which has a bigger cup, throat, and backbore.

There are mouthpieces out there that can give you a 6.5 width with the larger cup an backbore. You can also contact Doug Elliott and put together something that is exactly what you are looking for. Then in the future change out pieces as your playing develops and/or your needs change.

[PaulT]

When I got my 620 (.547), it did occur to me that I could perhaps do a little mix and matching of bell and slide with my 630 (.525) as both horns share the same bell, but, alas, the slide tenons and the matching threaded bell sockets were different with the two horns...
- the 630 (.525) slide was a loose, rattley fit into the 620 bell
- the 620 (.547) tenon was too big to fit into the the 630 bell, only getting to within half an inch of the threaded coupler.

As the slide tenons are tapered, I could get a tight, secure fit with the 'too big' 620 slide into the 630 bell, but the extra half-inch of length between the sections made for an awkward grip and the experiment was short-lived.

The tuning slides are identical however, so I did switch those around as I like having a little more weight on the back end of my 620 (the 630 "straight" has a counterweight attached to the tuning slide's support tube, both of which are missing from the 620's tuning slide).

Back to mouthpieces, I do have deep cup versions of Yamaha's 48 (slightly smaller than the 6.5) and 51 (slightly larger than the 6.5) mouthpieces (the 48D and 51D) and I don't like either one of them. When I play similar mouthpieces, I like the regular depth or the slightly shallow depth and do not at all like the deep cup versions) I find the regular Yamaha 51 to be about the same as the 5G, both are intriguing but, as of now, not yet. And I like the slightly shallower Yamaha 51C a lot, but I have come to slightly prefer the 6.5.

I feel I am in the right spot for right now with the 6.5AL.

Actually, I have spent the last couple days mainly playing my Yamaha 891 (.508) with the 6.5AL in it, and that combo is working so well for me and sounds so good, I plan on bringing it to rehearsal on Monday and see how it goes. I really like both the 620 and the 891, but the 891 is so light and lively and reverberant and so fun and easy to play and sounds so good, and hell, I'm not getting paid to play, why carry a big horn with a trigger I forget to use half the time?

[tbonesullivan]

Interesting, I'd heard that they were readily interchangeable, but things may have changed.

If you look around, for a .547 instrument, you can find a 6 1/2 A, which has a larger throat and backbore, the same as on the 5G mouthpiece.

The 6 1/2A for small shank, on the other hand, has a smaller throat and backbore than the 6 1/2 AL.