TromboneChat

I have a student who has a frustrating issue between a middle F in the staff down to about a C. It’s a real fuzzy, unfocused buzzy sound that doesn’t want to settle on the centre of the note, and is sort of a half/half sound between and F and a low Bb.

I think there’s some sort of embouchure shift going on here Where the air is fighting between up and down stream. I believe she is a downstream player and we’ve worked up to a decent high range with some Caruso exercises up to a high C above middle C. In her upper range her embouchure looks solid. I think I’m right in thinking she needs to try and keep this setting and work her way down, not letting the air stream change directions.

We’ve worked some Caruso exercises from higher up, down through the trouble range, and it seems to help retaining focus, but then in normal playing the problem is back. It’s been frustrating for both of us!!!

She’s one of my best students, very musical and switched on. She’s also been thrown into bass bone by her band director in stage band which has maybe exasperated the problem. So she’s playing tenor and bass and she also plays clarinet to a high level which has crossed my mind as being a potential problem to a trombone embouchure too.

Embouchure gurus please help! Thanks you!

Without video..........

We teachers can make good educational hypotheses about airstream direction but in some cases the only way to know for sure which direction the airstream goes is via a transparent mouthpiece.

I saw this question also on the FB trombone group - the check on making sure there's no problems with the instrument is of course good.

I'd also recommend going through a whole lesson left-handed. If there is some optimization of horn angle that she's fighting, switching hands can help reveal possible solutions.

And - check for dental quirks. I know a guy who seems to have a similar low range problem caused by an out-of-place tooth.

The thought that any change in the emboushure should be avoided is not working. Changes happen all the time as we play and the efficiency comes from doing no more than what is necessary. What does that mean? I think there often are shifts. I notice I aim to the right when I go low and it starts allready from that F. It is subtle there and no one can see that. It is just something I feel. I do more when I go real low. It feels more secure that way and in the valve register it also helps to reach the longest positions better. That really helps when I point the horn slight to the right. Let her experiment. To play lefthanded could give some insights to the problem. I think that was a good idea. To introduce "flatterzunge" and to let her try a mute might also shed some light to the problem. A mute gives more resistance and it might force her to change her blow?

/Tom

Might I suggest arranging a Skype lesson with Doug Elliott or Dave Wilken? It's not expensive, she (and you) will learn a TON, and it'll save her (and you) from pursuing rabbit trails that, at best, lead to nowhere (and, at worst, may prove harmful in the long run).

I responded to you on the facebook pedagogy page, but I'll repeat the salient points here for the benefit of the peanut gallery:

I think this is completely tied to the tenor/bass doubling. I can't speak to the clarinet doubling, but I know from experience that "doubling" on tenor and bass requires a ton of work (and very savvy equipment choices) to not result in embouchure overuse or confusion.

The airy sound between F and C is a symptom of overuse, if the student has been fine in that register before. The student is certainly doing something different/bad with her face resulting in the different/bad sound. Not devoting enough time to learning good fundamentals on bass trombone will result in different/bad things happening with anyone's face if they try to rehearse or perform on that instrument.

When I get a double buzz, it rarely is a result of insufficient tension- in fact, it results from insufficient relaxation. Balance is key to being able to play with a relaxed embouchure, and fundamentals are key to balance. Balancing embouchure and air support is much more difficult on bass trombone than on tenor trombone, especially in an ensemble setting.

Learn balance on bass*, restore balance on tenor, restore relaxation on tenor, double buzz will go away.

*with VERY BASIC exercises, Arban's first page, Schlossberg first five pages.

In order to keep the airstream one direction, which I do think is important, it may be necessary to change her placement one way or the other, and the mouthpiece size and rim contour can be very related to that if she has a small face.

Lots of people get messed up by a suddenly switch to bass. Especially when the face isn't big enough to handle a larger mouthpiece in the placement it needs.

I also made a short reply on the Facebook group already. I much prefer how this forum displays the discussion over Facebook, so think this is a better medium for this discussion.

I think there’s some sort of embouchure shift going on here Where the air is fighting between up and down stream.

That is entirely possible and could result in the symptoms you're describing. What are you seeing that makes you suspect an air stream direction change is happening at that point?

I believe she is a downstream player and we’ve worked up to a decent high range with some Caruso exercises up to a high C above middle C. In her upper range her embouchure looks solid.

Downstream embouchure type players are much more common than players who have the anatomical features that make an upstream embouchure work better. Statistically speaking, there's a good chance that your student is (or should be) playing with a downstream embouchure type.

That said, I personally wouldn't assume this is the case. A C above high C isn't all that high, comparatively speaking. Using my own history as an example, I had that solid C and was pretty consistent to the Db just above from high school all the way into a couple of years of doctoral studies in trombone, but couldn't get out the D just above ever. Doug Elliott (one of the moderators here, see his post above) taught me how to play with an upstream embouchure (correct for my anatomy) and was able to help me break past that range cap.

We’ve worked some Caruso exercises from higher up, down through the trouble range, and it seems to help retaining focus, but then in normal playing the problem is back. It’s been frustrating for both of us!!!

These sorts of exercises, where you leave the mouthpiece on the lips and breath through the nose, are great for working certain embouchure mechanics, but if there's a fundamental flaw already in the student's embouchure they can also reinforce the problem. If the cause of your student's symptoms is indeed an air stream direction change, then by forcing her to keep the same mouthpiece placement in her trouble range is likely only going to help her get better at playing in the wrong way for her face.

In order to keep the airstream one direction, which I do think is important, it may be necessary to change her placement one way or the other, and the mouthpiece size and rim contour can be very related to that if she has a small face.

What Doug said.

If, as you think, your student should be playing downstream and she is switching upstream in the trouble range, then she will probably want to move her mouthpiece placement higher on her lips (closer to the nose). Personally, I would also have this student try a lower (closer to the chin) mouthpiece placement and see what happens. One clue that you're on the right track would be if she finds it easier to play in the upper register with a particular placement, then see if she can descend from there into her trouble range and see what happens.

All that said, there are some other things that could be contributing or causing this issue. For example, she might be reversing or changing the angle of her embouchure motion. Or, as has been mentioned above, the horn angle is too static or moving in the wrong direction. Maybe she's keeping the tongue arch too high while descending.

The brass embouchure resource I linked to on your Facebook thread may be helpful to you. My goal in it was to give teachers the conceptual tools do be able to do their own embouchure analysis without having to rely on asking "embouchure gurus" for help online. There's really nothing in that resource that isn't already published and available, but it has historically been ignored or dismissed by some of the luminaries in the field of brass pedagogy. You can find it here:

http://www.wilktone.com/?page_id=5619

Dave