TromboneChat

I posted in the classifieds looking for a Conn 88h valve section, and some questions came up, and I realized I had no idea what I was looking for.

First of all, are different era Conn 88's have different sized valves?

Second, if I buy a straight Conn (74h in this instance) do I even need a Conn 88 valve to match with this bell? Someone mentioned that the Blessing B88 has a similar valve section.

I don't even know if this project is something I'm even interested in going down, especially since I have no idea how the horn would with the valve. Does anyone have experience with putting a valve on a straight horn that can help lead me down the right path?

Yeah, but, uh, why? Either buy two horns or buy one that's already convertible. I mean unless you don't like your money. It will cost you 3 horns to wind up with one you can treat like two.

A 74h isn't exactly something to dump a lot of money into.

I've done this before; in general, the reason you'd do this is to a horn that you like the way it plays straight and want to add the flexibility of an F attachment, not because you want an F attachment horn because often it will be cheaper and better to just get an f attachment horn as already indicated. I don't know much about the 74H so I can't comment if its "worth it" or not, let alone if it would be the best for your situation.

I'm not aware of any major difference between the 88 valves. If you had an 88 already and the rotor core was corroded beyond repair or something, that's when you'd worry about that because the tubing might not interface with the existing tubing. Meaning if you were to just replace the casing + core, it might not be a "drop in" replacement; it would be likely that a tech would have to make some adjustment to the tubing and that's where some of the pricing does add up because it has to be very precisely aligned and the existing tubing might not even work with your current F attachment.

Converting a straight horn is a different ball of wax. If you are purchasing a full valve section (meaning the casing AND tubing) you "should be" okay. There are some issues you can still run into though. The most obvious is that a straight horn often has a different length tuning slide receiver and invariably has a bell brace that your thumb goes over. Notice on most F attachment horns, the thumb goes UNDER this brace. This is not a trivial problem to solve. It will either involve fabricating a longer part ($$$) or ordering one for your horn. Given that 74H is not in production (?) you might not be able to get something that works for it... though perhaps an 88 one would work. But you'd have to make sure it would still mate with your slide.

The other issue is the neckpipe. That has a taper in it so one can't simply cut the distance of the tubing and then pop it in. Well, on some horns it's possible but on others you have to either retaper the neckpipe or order a new neckpipe part. Again with a 74 it's entire possible this isn't an orderable part. The issue with this is even if you can get your hands on a shorter neckpipe part intended for a horn with an F attachment, it might not be an exact match for the rotor you get as they all vary slightly in size and angle of the ports. This is where the $$$ comes in because it has to be very precisely aligned to work.

I think it's a lot of fun to do projects like this and if you're super patient and/or willing to buy random parts over time when they come up on the cheap, you can totally get some awesome (or not so awesome) horns for a very reasonable price depending on how lucky you are. BUT on the other hand, there are some awesome horns out there ready to go so whether or not its something you want to do depends on your financial situation and what you find fun. All of my horns are "franken"-horns at the moment... including a YSL446 which has a 356 slide... a Shires with a dependent valve section from a Bach 36 and a Thein + a 525/547 slide from a Yamaha 645 and 8820 w/ a Conn 52H or Conn "X" pipe... my bass is in the shop but that is a German Shires screw bell with Instrument Innovations rotors and an Edwards slide. I love the way all of them play (although I've only played the bass for like 10 minutes because I ordered the linkages from yamaha and it's taking forever to get them to me) but getting to where I am has taken me years. If you just want a horn with an F attachment, just put a WTB up here. FWIW, I have a franken medium bore I'm thinking of selling (it's the opposite of the setup above, a 356 bell section with a 646 slide) if you wanted a franken horn w/o putting the work in

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:01 pm Yeah, but, uh, why? Either buy two horns or buy one that's already convertible. I mean unless you don't like your money. It will cost you 3 horns to wind up with one you can treat like two.

I believe the easiest option would be to find an 88H bell to marry with the medium bore slide. I'm just trying to think of all my options and get others opinions.

I'm not necessarily sold on adding a valve to the 74h bell, or even finding an 88h, but I've owned this horn before and know that I really like it. The reason I sold it, was because it was the first medium bore I bought when I went down that rabbit hole and didn't realize that it was going to be my favorite. Another reason was because I wanted a medium bore with a valve. After trying 3 other horns I realized the the 74h was for me.

I hope that all makes sense.

Also, Matt K, thanks for the really detailed response. Super helpful!

No problem! Something else to consider is that the 88 has a .562 valve section, because the valve is normally bigger than the slide. For a medium bore, you could also look smaller. a .530 from a King would also suffice and, shameless plug, I actually have two available at the moment if you want to email me I can get you the info on that.

Why is this so complicated? They make an 88h with a 525 slide. I own one great combination. Dillons might have a slide or a full horn available ready to go.

Also Bach 36b, Conn 50h, 52h, King 607, 608? Yamaha and Getzen make an option. 74h, not to be disrespectful, but it's a low value horn to put a lot of money into.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:19 am Why is this so complicated? They make an 88h with a 525 slide. I own one great combination. Dillons might have a slide or a full horn available ready to go.

Also Bach 36b, Conn 50h, 52h, King 607, 608? Yamaha and Getzen make an option. 74h, not to be disrespectful, but it's a low value horn to put a lot of money into.

I understand, but I don’t want a new horn. Even if the valve conversion is around $1500, which from what I hear is in the high side, I’m still in for it way cheaper than what a Conn 88 with a .525 slide would be. I know this specific 74h is a good one. I’ve owned it before. I missed it so much that I bought it back from the guy.

This is fun little project I’ve thought up and didn’t know if it was possible. Adding a valve to the 74h bell isn’t necessarily the route I’m going to go. I just wanted to see what crazy ideas and options people had.

Now I'm thinking about picking up a Bach 36. Since I don't like the wide Bach slides, it might be in my best interest to just change out the crooks and make the slide narrower.

Does anyone have any experience with that? I feel like I've heard that as a common modification with Bach trombones.

JLivi wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:23 pm Now I'm thinking about picking up a Bach 36. Since I don't like the wide Bach slides, it might be in my best interest to just change out the crooks and make the slide narrower.

Does anyone have any experience with that? I feel like I've heard that as a common modification with Bach trombones.

The slide on a 36 isn't wide. It's the same distance iirc as the small bore Bachs, which is probably what you're thinking of. The Bach 39 (alto trombone), and all variants of Bach up to the 16M have the same crook that is undersized on... all of them(?) except the alto. It isn't uncommon to put a King 3B crook on those to open them up.

JLivi wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:23 pm Now I'm thinking about picking up a Bach 36. Since I don't like the wide Bach slides, it might be in my best interest to just change out the crooks and make the slide narrower.

As I understand it, you want to end up with a medium-bore trombone with F-attachment, and you like Conn valves.

Perfect solution: Pick up a used Conn 79H (0.522" bore) – fine valve, excellent slide (if well cared for) – but rather scarce.

Bach 36s don't really have wide slides...

If you like a straight horn, but want a valve, take a look at the Meinlschmidt "radial flow" valve -- a Minnick valve copy.

It still won't play like a straight horn, but you can kid yourself that since it as a straight shot though the valve, then that must be the next best thing.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:51 pm As I understand it, you want to end up with a medium-bore trombone with F-attachment, and you like Conn valves.

Perfect solution: Pick up a used Conn 79H (0.522" bore) – fine valve, excellent slide (if well cared for) – but rather scarce.

I almost pulled the trigger on the 79h that was up for sale here on the forum. After trying a students, it wasn't what I am looking for. I really like the 8.5" rose bell that the 74h has.

JLivi wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:30 pm I really like the 8.5" rose bell that the 74h has.

I understand your love for the 8½" rose brass bell – that's what comes with a Conn 88H.

If you want such a bell with a great valve, check out a Conn 88HCL with the Christian Lindberg valve. Of course those come with a 0.547" bore slide, but apparently compatible 0.525" bore slides are available.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:17 pm I understand your love for the 8½" rose brass bell – that's what comes with a Conn 88H.

If you want such a bell with a great valve, check out a Conn 88HCL with the Christian Lindberg valve. Of course those come with a 0.547" bore slide, but apparently compatible 0.525" bore slides are available.

I'm aware of the specs of the 88h. But this 74h was only $700.

Trust me, if I had all of the money in the world I'd buy a new 88h with the .525 slide, but with this being my 2nd maybe 3rd horn, I want this to be a frankenstein horn. I still might find an 88h(o) bell and make it fit with this slide, and then have the option of valve or no valve. We will see what happens...