TromboneChat

Hello

I am currently working on a Staff Development to be shared with other directors in our school district and I would like to get some input. As a trombonist, I feel the use of F Attachment Large Bore Horns in Middle School can lead to a variety of issues if the information I plan to present this not addressed.
Aside from brand of instrument, mouthpieces and linkage, etc…..I would like to look at some of the following issues.
Issues to be considered
1) Hand Position
a. Left Hand – Fingers
b. Left Hand – Thumb Placement
c. Right Hand - The Same
2) Use of Trigger
a. As an “Alternate” Position
b. As a “Primary” Position
i. 6th and 7th Positions
ii. Using both sets of tools
3) F Attachment
a. Assistant to the Open Horn
b. Two Separate Instruments (Like French Horn)
4) Exercises to Facilitate use of Valve
a. F – C – F
b. Bb – C – D – F
c.
5) Tuning
a. Open Horn
i. Bb Above staff for All
ii. F – 4th Line of Beginners
iii. Trigger – C
I plan to do a live demonstration and create reference videos in the future.

I haven't been in a middle school classroom in years so pardon my ignorance. Why does a middle schooler need a large bore f trigger instrument for, except perhaps bass trombone parts? Won't there be ergonomic issues? Won't it complicate an already complicated instrument to understand (no buttons nor keys to press down)?

There are some very good tutorials for the F-attachment trombone.

For Middle School I'd try to find instruments that are held much like a regular tenor: the Bach Omega and King 3B come to mind but there are lots of others. Holding an F-attachment instrument without aid of the bell brace can lead to some ergonomic issues. Alternatively, start them with a strap like the Yamaha strap.

There is a tendency to use the trigger for all C,B, F, and E. There are times that playing them in the outer positions makes better sense. For Middle Schoolers, with shortish arms, probably overuse of the trigger for C and B (and F and E) is probably OK.

An important point to be made is that the positions using the F valve are DIFFERENT from the positions on the Bb trombone. You only get 6 positions on a normal slide. Trigger 3 is right at the bell rim if regular 3 is just before.

Most of us don't use the instrument as a "double". We use the trigger to bring in remote notes, but rarely use the outer positions on the F-side for anything other than low range. However, building the tone of the outer positions in the 3rd and 4th partials can help improve tone on the Bb side of the instrument.

For a beginner, matching F in 1st position with the trigger will get you pretty much in tune; certainly good enough for most Middle School applications. We generally argue about tuning to get C in the bass staff in tune or F below the bass staff (it's normally quite flat) but again that's between the bass players and the tenor players.

It's very rare to use the trigger for notes above the 3rd partial and certainly not for notes above the bass staff. On the other hand, I've done a "stupid human trick" of playing a Bb scale in 1st position using only the valve and open horn. I've also used C above the bass staff in T1 to allow a free hand to turn a page of music. But these should be considered special uses.

Good luck with your demonstration.

I'm not sure that the French Horn comparison really holds very well. The Double horn evolved more to help with the high range of the instrument, while the F attachment evolved more to help with the trombone low range.

I don't know if there is much real use for learning the F-attachment above the 3rd partial. The trombone is really a unique instrument, in that having a slide means it it is not constrained by the intonation issues of brass instruments.

Lew Gillis 70 Progressive Studies is an excellent resource.

My opinion and experience may vary quite widely from the others because I am in Thailand, where students are (supposed to be) smaller than average American students.

Almost all of the students I have advised/play with have complained that holding the straight trombone (my former school has only Yamaha YSL-354 or the like for straight tenor, so I don't know whether other models would help), and they would switch gladly to F-attachment horns. Some complain about fatigue sometimes but no complaint about hand pain so far.

The students normally use the trigger for 6th-7th positions, and I encourage them to always use it for those positions as long as they are unable to reach the positions reliably. I also advise them on alternate positions when suitable, with varying results.

For me, it may be better to have the idea that the Bb/F trombone is two separated instruments combined into one. The positions are different, and I don't quite like the idea of teaching the F positions using Bb positions terminology (such as "low D is in 5th position"). It is OK to use it for easy reference when the students first learn it, but after that they should know and go by the actual positions, along with the reason why they are so.

I would love to see your demonstration when it is finished.

Chaichan, your observation is the reason Yamaha developed the 350C, which allows the use of a trigger for 6th and 7th positions. In the case of the 350C, the trigger positions are actually shorter than the Bb positions but not enough to really make a difference

What is the problem your students see with holding a straight trombone? Wrapping the thumb around the bell brace should make it fairly stable. If the instrument is nose heavy, maybe they need more counterweights.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:47 am What is the problem your students see with holding a straight trombone? Wrapping the thumb around the bell brace should make it fairly stable. If the instrument is nose heavy, maybe they need more counterweights.

Their pointing finger is usually too short to reach the mouthpiece receiver. The finger thus wrap around the brace with other fingers, and resulting in the thumb being overstretched when reaching for the brace and bearing weight. The fingers also have to counter the moment of the horn normally countered by the pointing fingers, further putting strain into the thumb and its webbing.

Older students normally have no problem, but almost everyone has trigger horn at that point so it is not relevant anymore.

sirisobhakya wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:56 pm9

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:47 am What is the problem your students see with holding a straight trombone? Wrapping the thumb around the bell brace should make it fairly stable. If the instrument is nose heavy, maybe they need more counterweights.

Their pointing finger is usually too short to reach the mouthpiece receiver. The finger thus wrap around the brace with other fingers, and resulting in the thumb being overstretched when reaching for the brace and bearing weight. The fingers also have to counter the moment of the horn normally countered by the pointing fingers, further putting strain into the thumb and its webbing.

Older students normally have no problem, but almost everyone has trigger horn at that point so it is not relevant anymore.

How about putting the middle finger up the brace instead? That should move the hand closer to the bell brace where the thumb can wrap. I have to confess that this was not an issue for me when I started (age 10) since I was a big kid. Also, instruments with long "span" (height of mouthpiece above tenon tube) tend to be a bad idea for a kid with small hands. I started on a Getzen Super Deluxe (not the one with the bent bracing) that was relatively compact. I think I'd find it uncomfortable to hold nowadays.