TromboneChat

A nieve, newbie question.
Can someone explain more about lead pipes.
Are they all detachable ?
Do they always effect the sound ?

The leadpipe is a piece of tubing into which you put your mouthpiece. It often has a series of tapers inside to control the way the instrument responds.

Most trombones have the leadpipe soldered in place. Especially the ones that most beginners play. Advanced instruments will have removable leadpipes. You can usually tell you have a removable leadpipe if there is a ring at the mouthpiece receiver that either pulls or screws.

Beginner trombones usually don't have removable leadpipes because (1) it's very easy to damage them and (2) changing leadpipes won't make much difference to a beginner (you have to be a rather seasoned player to be able to tell the difference between leadpipes).

I hope this helps.

No, they aren't all detachable. Well, technically with the right tools they're all basically detachable. "Normally" they are friction fit and then soldered in place. (That basically means the pipe is basically the same size as the pipe it is being inserted into at the top and then solder is flown through the bottom to keep it immobilized. It takes a torch and some patience to remove it and sometimes the heat required can damage the slide, or at least it can if you aren't really, really good at it.For reference, not all band repair shops will do that operation for you. Worst case scenario, you can almost always order a replacement inner slide but it costs money and then you have to do a total slide realignment.

Some newer horns (~30 years to present) have threads for leadpipes. This allows them to be screwed in and out without too much difficulty. Most players sparingly change them, opting to try a few and then leave one in unless they are reassessing things like mouthpiece change or some other change. It isn't like a mouthpiece where it is more common to play more than one perhaps even on the same gig.

Other horns do what I mentioned above where the pipe is barely smaller than the pipe it is going into but then don't solder it. This is called friction fit. Basically, all that's keeping it in there is the size of the pipe. Some techs will put little rings at the top to keep them from falling in too far or to be able to pull them out easier. If you have removable pipes, whether or not you use the threads or the friction fit is up to how much you want to spend, if the threads aren't provided by the manfuacturer.

Yes, the leadpipe is one of the most important aspects of the instrument in terms of sound. Something with a really short, open pipe is going to sound very diffuse compared to something that is long and has a gradual taper. People make pipes with a huge variance in taper, length, and materials and the difference from one to another can be pretty stark if the differences are large or relatively subtle if the pipes are similar to one another.

EDIT: Bruce beat me to the punch but it would be too much effort to modify so here is my full comment

Really, a bad leadpipe can make it much harder to play the instrument, but a good pipe by itself won't make you a virtuoso. There is the famous case of the JinBao alto that was awful until we discovered that putting in an aftermarket leadpipe made it much better.

Rest assured, a leadpipe change won't make a First Act or Bestler instrument play any better -- they are what they are.

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Have you ever changed a lead pipe in a trombone? I own an Edwards, and the three lead pipes they included make a significant difference in the way the instrument responds and sounds.

I spent some time on the leadpipe merry go round. What I ended up with is a dozen or so leadpipes and back on the pipes I started with. They do make a difference for sure, I am just not sure getting one taken out to experiment with a different one would be worth the hassle and possible expense.

GBP wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:11 am I spent some time on the leadpipe merry go round. What I ended up with is a dozen or so leadpipes and back on the pipes I started with. They do make a difference for sure, I am just not sure getting one taken out to experiment with a different one would be worth the hassle and possible expense.

I think that's somewhat instrument-dependent. The stock Bach 16M comes to mind, in that the stock pipe is somewhat odd and changing it out typically makes a significant improvement. Some of the Chinese altos have been reported to be the same way.

Depends on the horn and the player. I've taken a number of pipes out of stock horns and replaced them with a Shires #2 in their respective size and in each case the difference was a pretty marked improvement. At least for me. But then I've also removed pipes and had the stock pipe or some other pipe be a better fit. My 356 seems to like the 354 pipe but I haven't tried a Shires 2 on it yet. I have a YSL646 that I like the stock pipe on so I left it alone etc. The ones that I've replaced, memory serving are Bach 42 & 50, Conn 36H, King 3B (technically a 2b+/3b as I had it made 500/508), and I think one more horn but I can't recall what it was off the top of my head.

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Schlitz wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:31 pm

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:58 am Have you ever changed a lead pipe in a trombone? I own an Edwards, and the three lead pipes they included make a significant difference in the way the instrument responds and sounds.

Bruce's point is on a First Act horn. They are, what they are. Comparing them to an Edwards? Have you ever played a First Act horn?

I read it as you referring to trombones in general. Sorry - I misunderstood.

While it is true that it won't make a bad horn play well (nor will it substitute for practicing obviously), but it can be the single element that is making a horn a bad horn. But you won't know it until you pull it unfortunately. There is some precedent as others have pointed out of some of the Chinese horns having bizarrely bad leadpipes but are actually decent instruments oherwise once that's swapped out. I've owned two of the JinBao altos, both of which had the upgraded pie and I can personally attest to that. But I had a "B" stock one that was total garbage even with the leadpipe.

I use the T2 leadpipe in my Edwards. I wanted to experiment, so I ordered 3 leadpipes from a reputable maker in 3 different materials, in a size similar to the T2. After playing and recording myself playing them I sent all three back. They had more definite slots in the high register but not the depth of sound of the T2. I was actually pretty amazed at the difference in sound.

I had an Elkie 62H that came from LA with 2 pipes. One was much better than the other. I looked at the good one and on it was scratched the word “Minick”.

These days, it seems most pipes are pretty good, the main difference being in the degree of openness. Otherwise, the differences seem pretty subtle in most cases. IMHO

But if they make such a difference, why don't the manufacture of the horn put in the best one.
Does it really mean King/Bach/Conn don't know how to build the best product ???????????????????

Just like a mouthpiece, a leadpipe can be a personal thing. Depending on what you’re looking for out of the horn, you might want a tighter or a more open leadpipe, or something in between.

I suspect that manufacturing cost might have something to do with it as well. Makers may not want to spend the money on the tooling and expertise needed to develop new/more leadpipes, and in a world where so much importance is put on the bottom line they might just be trying to keep costs down.

With Edwards and Shires and other modular manufacturers doing so well, I’d support the idea that choice and personalization is a good thing.

Given the last several decades of good leadpipes, it would be tough to screw up a new one. Personalization is great for those who can afford it, but experience brands like Shires, Greenhoe, Edwards, M&w, etc. have left a lot of room for budget Chinese horns. Chinese horns aren't modular yet, but some of them do have interchangeable leadpipes.

lauriet wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:31 am But if they make such a difference, why don't the manufacture of the horn put in the best one.
Does it really mean King/Bach/Conn don't know how to build the best product ???????????????????

"You can get whatever color you want as long as its black!"

lauriet wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:31 am But if they make such a difference, why don't the manufacture of the horn put in the best one.
Does it really mean King/Bach/Conn don't know how to build the best product ???????????????????

"But we also included the best mouthpiece with our horn as well"

- manufacturer

lauriet wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:31 am But if they make such a difference, why don't the manufacture of the horn put in the best one.
Does it really mean King/Bach/Conn don't know how to build the best product ???????????????????

Sarcasm aside, Conn doesn't know how to make a Conn anymore (since 1971).

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:17 am Given the last several decades of good leadpipes, it would be tough to screw up a new one. Personalization is great for those who can afford it, but experience brands like Shires, Greenhoe, Edwards, M&w, etc. have left a lot of room for budget Chinese horns. Chinese horns aren't modular yet, but some of them do have interchangeable leadpipes.

This has been my experience. I have spent a lot of money on leadpipe. I have more than 10. I am back on Edwards #3 on all my horns except my jazz bass, which has a #2 something or other in it. I generally use leadpipes to balance resistance in the horn with my mouthpiece of choice.

just curious why most ppl (or maestros) like to use high resistance leadpipes? and I feel like lower resistance will result in a better sound (?) also I think the resistance add difficulty on playing to beginners and doesn't bother professionals much (at least I don't) (?) just wanna know if I have any misconceptions on this topic.

boneAngo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 8:20 pm just curious why most ppl (or maestros) like to use high resistance leadpipes? and I feel like lower resistance will result in a better sound (?) also I think the resistance add difficulty on playing to beginners and doesn't bother professionals much (at least I don't) (?) just wanna know if I have any misconceptions on this topic.

I am not sure this has much basis in fact. The 88H, for example, which many people use, has a very open pipe.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 8:23 pm

boneAngo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 8:20 pm just curious why most ppl (or maestros) like to use high resistance leadpipes? and I feel like lower resistance will result in a better sound (?) also I think the resistance add difficulty on playing to beginners and doesn't bother professionals much (at least I don't) (?) just wanna know if I have any misconceptions on this topic.

I am not sure this has much basis in fact. The 88H, for example, which many people use, has a very open pipe.

So is 88H already considered a low resistance one?

As I am playing Courtois 440 and 420 (one rotary and hagmann) and I have played a 88H before and it sounds like 88H is having a very high resistance comparing to the horns I am using (the sound is less open on 88H)

boneAngo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 8:30 pm As I am playing Courtois 440 and 420 (one rotary and hagmann) and I have played a 88H before and it sounds like 88H is having a very high resistance comparing to the horns I am using (the sound is less open on 88H)

Yes, the leadpipe is just one component of many in a trombone. The overall resistance is not determined solely by any one component.

If you put the 88H pipe in an Edwards with a wide slide, it would play extremely open. The 88H has a narrow slide, and different tapers.

and what confused me the most is people are always choosing some low resistance valves (hagmann, truebore, icon etc.) for their horns but with a high resistance leadpipe. Is there a reason behind this kind of combination? (like if they aim for high resistance then why not high resistance leadpipe + high resistance small rotary?)

The sensation of “resistance” can be caused by many factors, most of which are not correlated 1:1 with something being as large as it can be. If that weren’t the case, you could improve the tenor trombone by making it a single bore with no taper all the way to the tuning slide, removing the leadpipe, and having the throat of the mouthpiece immediately expand to the inner bore of the inner slide.

Things that can cause the sensation of resistance include (not in any particular order, though I’ve tried to include things that I’ve experienced strongly towards the top):

• inter diameter of your mouthpiece rim (too big or too small)
• cup depth (too deep or too shallow)
• backbore/throat (too big or too small)
• poorly assembled instrument (leaks, tension, ill fitting parts)
• Leadpipe
• bell weight (extreme heavy or light)
• type of valve
• crook size (inner diameter and width)
• Slide material and weight

With these, the choice isnt “resistant vs open”. I like the way that Shires indicates the dichotomy of leadpipes as “centered/articulate vs. broad”. Then there are other considerations of material and length. Sterling pipes by most makers are long by default, for example. You can get nickel pipes (typically very articulate) with a “broad” taper, etc. if “broad” were the only thing you were going for a short, sterling pipe with a broad taper is all everyone would play (or perhaps even no leadpipe at all), yet that’s a combination virtually nobody plays.

I had problems when I was younger with being way too bright, which you’d think would be solved by adding more broad equipment to the spectrum (heavier bells, broader leadpipes, etc). But as it turns out, I was able to solve the problem by 1) having a rim size that’s appropriate for me and 2) paradoxically replacing my “open” equipment with equipment that was more on the articulate side of this spectrum. It was a problem of trying to muscle my way into the sound I wanted.

boneAngo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 11:53 pm and what confused me the most is people are always choosing some low resistance valves (hagmann, truebore, icon etc.) for their horns but with a high resistance leadpipe. Is there a reason behind this kind of combination? (like if they aim for high resistance then why not high resistance leadpipe + high resistance small rotary?)

Again, I am not sure that "people are always choosing low resistance valves and also choosing a high resistance pipe". Where are you getting that from? In my experience, when given a choice, most people are using the middle-of-the-road "2" pipe on horns, regardless of the valve.

Now, in the case of the Bach 42, hardly anyone is choosing a leadpipe at all -- it comes with a relatively tight pipe, soldered in, and the base model comes with a tight valve. So in that case, people are choosing a low resistance valve (either aftermarket or by the special model they choose), because that will tend to balance out the horn.

Let's assume that this (above) is why some people might gravitate to other horn setups that are open past the valve, but with a tight pipe -- if you see them doing that, what does that tell you? Or, if you notice that almost nobody is playing a Haggman with a "3" pipe and a bass crook with a "K" bell, what does that tell you?

People want balance. I think that large bore players who play professionally on all tight equipment or completely open equipment are relatively rare.

The closest I can think of is Jay Friedman, who has played at varying points in his career / for stylistic appropriateness some variety… to include Bach 42 with 50 slides, Bach 45, the Holton with the 9” bell and 547/562 slide. But I suspect if most people were to be handed any of those horns blind, a sizeable portion of players would report playing something with a lot of resistance.

Harrison said, “People want balance.” I think that’s correct. I also think that people don’t understand what a balanced sound feels like behind the bell (“this side” of the bell) even when they’ve heard a nice balanced sound from their teacher or as an audience member (“the other side” of the bell).

Sometimes people have a sound in mind but don’t know how to get that sound. They might think they need an “open” taper on a leadpipe to get an “open” or “broad” sound. Like Matt said, there’s isn’t a 1:1 correspondence. Most people do well or best with middle-of-the-road equipment, designs and combinations that have been around for a while.

Older large-bore Bach 42’s and similar instruments (one-piece bell, soldered rim, mostly yellow brass) tend to play better with a more centered, focused, or articulate leadpipe. Older large-bore Conn 88’s and similar instruments (gold brass two-piece bells, previously unsoldered rim, mix of brass and nickel) tend to play better with a more open leadpipe. Additionally, the internal tapers of other parts of the instruments (slide crooks, tuning crooks, etc.) are very different. Traditional German trombones are completely different. And that’s not even mentioning medium or small bore horns.

The best way to figure out what you need is to have a trusted set of ears in the audience to hear you without a group and with a group. Teachers and trusted colleagues are your best bet.