TromboneChat

Is there any way to modify a non-modular horn with fixed leadpipe to be a little darker and to have less bite? Preferably non-invasive, but I am open for any idea.

I like my sound from behind the bell and when I play alone, but upon listening to a recording when in section I realized it is much brighter and has noticeably more bite than others to the point that it stands out.

The modifications I have made to the horn so far (but not tone-related) are a Yamaha 882 counterweight for balance, and 822G valve caps.

I have always been flirting with the idea of making the bell swappable and use a bell of Yamaha 612R (rose brass) instead. But the diameter of that bell is 10 inch, the stock bell is 9.5, so I am worrying about the slide clearance. Also what is the baseline price of such conversion (for 2 bells + respective nuts and threading)? Is it a good way to go?

Why not use a deeper mouthpiece with the same rim dimensions?

Doubler wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:30 pm Why not use a deeper mouthpiece with the same rim dimensions?

I am using a Yamaha Douglas Yeo, which I believe is already quite deep. Any suggestion?

FWIW, double check this with a tech but clearance shouldn't be an issue. A tech can change the angle of a receiver without too much trouble on most horns so that you won't hit your hands.

That said, price is going to vary wildly depending on the wrap for your proposed procedure. Most techs charge per solder point + time so if you have a closed wrap or unfortunately like most Yamaha wraps is they have tons of solder points. At $20 a joint, a Yamaha tenor with their semi-closed wrap would be $160 just to put it back together minus any custom work they'd do. The bracing is also much larger than any of the stock hardware on the Yamaha so you'd have to replace the bracing too... I would suspect it would end up being rather pricey to have such a conversion done with even OE Thayer parts, which are actually quite inexpensive. The other issue is there's no obvious place to attach an upper bell brace to on your model. Doug Yeo made his modular with a wingnut there which may be an option... that might also possibly eliminate the replacing of the lower bell brace too but I don't know where I'd source that part from. Tech might know. Either way... I would be very surprised if the project was less than $500-600.

If I were in your shoes, I'd look into getting that pipe swapped out. It should end up being cheaper than just about anything else even if everything goes sideways. I don't know what pipe the 822 has but I'd start with something more on the "1" side of the spectrum or maybe a 1.5 and go from there if you do that. This tends to make the horn a little easier to control given the other design characteristics of the 822.

EDIT: https://butlertrombones.com/?page_id=628

Actually, is that model compatible with Bach slides? You could also maybe swap our slide our or look for a used Edwards slide (or Bach even) and see how that works. Bach has a ~1.5 pipe by default and it's a little longer which sometimes brings a horn the direction you're looking. Edwards, of course, is setup to have modular pipes. Their default is to have a little nickel on it (crook) which also oddly enough sometimes makes it easier to color, at leas tin my personal experience.

Without hearing the recording, its hard to say, but is it possible you are playing too aggressively? Articulation and volume could be a little harsh.

Where are you recording? What with? How far away? What music?

sirisobhakya wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:40 pm

Doubler wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:30 pm Why not use a deeper mouthpiece with the same rim dimensions?

I am using a Yamaha Douglas Yeo, which I believe is already quite deep. Any suggestion?

It seems to me that neither your mouthpiece nor your trombone are contributing to the situation. I'm inclined to have you consider the questions posed by hyperbolica and Burgerbob; the solution to your problem seems elsewhere than your equipment.

If you want less "bite", I don't think a 612R bell will do that for you, especially at higher volumes. It can definitely put out a good amount of edge, and I don't know about the first version, but the R II has it paired with a nickel silver slide. Also it's an unsoldered rim.

The equipment you are playing on now is pretty big. Re-thinking your sound concept may be your best way to get less edge.

Doubler wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:50 pm

sirisobhakya wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:40 pm

I am using a Yamaha Douglas Yeo, which I believe is already quite deep. Any suggestion?

It seems to me that neither your mouthpiece nor your trombone are contributing to the situation. I'm inclined to have you consider the questions posed by hyperbolica and Burgerbob; the solution to your problem seems elsewhere than your equipment.

I agree. If you're using standard equipment, unmodified, then it's likely to be you. Get someone else to play your set-up?

Don't play so loud.... simple.

Chris

Chris wins.
It's how you're playing, not what you're playing.

Do you have any of these recordings that you can link to/post?

One thing to be wary of is that you can't change other people's sound. DISCLAIMER: What I'm about to say might give the wrong impression- I'm just trying to help OP out.

Something that everyone encounters is playing with others who aren't at the same level, for better or for worse. We tend to improve from the former, and actually regress due to the latter. One thing I've noticed from not-so-great players is that the range of bad sounds is almost as wide (if not wider) than the range of good sounds. Lots of us probably think of a pinched, nasal sound as the default "sixth grader" sound. There are plenty of players out there who get a dead, not dark sound on the instrument. This can be maddening to blend with, and is equally bad- they're not playing the instrument right.

Make sure that the sound you're aiming for is actually one you want to emulate- dark not dull or dead, live or bright not snappy. Wherever you are on the spectrum, your sound must center.

I'm bias because I had a very, very similar issue but on the Yamaha tenor from that generation, the YSL8820. But for a very long time, really until I started studying with Doug, I was a super bright player. I mean, I still am but I have more timbral flexibility than "chainsaw" and "off" now. Doug straightened me out for sure, but on the same handI still can't stand that Yamaha model to this day... but actually the bell section is quite nice with a different slide... and I play the slide with a different leadpipe on a different bell. Just that particular combination didn't work for me. I've never owned an 822 but I had a similar issue with the 622 that the college had. Doesn't mix with me. Hopefully that context elucidates why I answered thusly. Could be a 'both' issue very easily.

Look, I might have sounded simplistic and harsh, but mine was an honest comment. Much of the instrumental confusion and contradiction here on the forum is down to people not working out how to play the equipment they have. Some equipment demands a lot of out of the box thinking.... look at something like the King duo Gravis... we have a member here who achieved great results in a top symphony orchestra on such an instrument, where most of us find it hard to imagine getting a huge orchestral sound out of one of these beasts, he found it to be a path to exactly what was required. Brilliant!!!
How did he do it ? You would have to ask him, but it must involve a deep understanding of sound and the particular qualities that a given instrument has and how to manipulate them.
Thought is cheaper than bells and leadpipes...

Chris

In the past I've had good luck with a half dollar sized piece of peel-and-stick foam near the bell rim. You could also try a strip of lead tape. Anything that will inhibit the bell from vibrating.

Try everything but Chris, or fossil is a wise man to listen. He have probably listen and seen most things.

I don't know but have a few questions. Who say you have too bright and too much edge? Is it you, or is it the people you play with? Or is it a teacher? Sometimes we think we sound like this and that while the truth is different.

Anyway, stay on, practice, try things in your playing like change the style. Have a sound inside to work against. Go to the good teachers around. Also something needs time.

Leif

I too believe it is more the player than the horn.

I hope that did not come out as harsh. I don't want to offend anybody. It's just that I look at my own playing that way. You could think I'm a representative for the opposite because I have a lot of horns, but to me it has never been a chase for THE perfekt horn. My chase is to get the different horn and work that. I'm curious to see what I can do with a particular horn.

Now, there are cheap ways at hand and there are expensive ways at hand to effect the sound. I have repaired a few instruments that were bad and sounded bad because they had faults, but if nothing is wrong I'm not into cutting/changing any horn to change it's sound. To split triggers is probably as far as I would go.

Some say we sound the same on every horn we play after a while. I believe that to be true in great sense. It comes from that inner sound. If you have a good awareness of how you want your sound to be then every sound you make will strive in that direction.

I also know it does not have to be like that if you are very aware of sound and aim differently. If you choose another instrument and go with character of that horn and imagine that other sound then you can get that other sound. I'm sure there are people who can do that without changing the instrument too, but to me the change of instrument is what triggers the change.

Sometimes we can have troubles to hear that inner sound. We just blow and accept what ever comes out. I was like this for many years since I had a clarinet teacher to teach me on trombone and had therefore never heard a true trombone sound until I was about 15 years old. That's to be unaware of sound. If that is the case then it takes some listening to build up that inner sound. Many professionals change instruments for different styles. It helps to do that physical change. It also helps to have different raw models for different sounds.

A teacher would be the first choice but after this I recommend the cheaper the method the better it is.

1. First is practice. That is for free. Practice a ton with people who have a sound you like. It will influence your playing.
2. Second is mouthpiece change. That cost some $ and could be what you have to do.
3. Third is leadpipe. Cost even more if you need to remove and switch a permanent pipe.
4. Fourth path I would not go. It is to replace/add valves and valve wraps. I would not do it because it probably destroys something that is perfectly working and could be sold to someone who appreciate the horn in original. I would not advice to rebuild, instead I would advice to go straight to the fifth path.
5 Fifth path is to buy a new instrument, maybe a modular horn. I would then go to an expert who sells such modular instrument and spend some time there to figure what I like and build my own version of their product.

/Tom

Moving back to what Chris said, PLAY SOFTER!

Brightness comes with volume. If you want to take some of the edge off, the easiest way is to back off.

Many (if not most) bass trombonists play TOO LOUD all the time. Support, don't dominate.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:50 pm Moving back to what Chris said, PLAY SOFTER!

Brightness comes with volume. If you want to take some of the edge off, the easiest way is to back off.

Many (if not most) bass trombonists play TOO LOUD all the time. Support, don't dominate.

I agree with this. Brightness comes from an unbalanced sound and it is what happens if I blow to hard and can not balance the higher frekvenses with deeper frekvenses. The result will be to much of the high and the sound will be shallow and harsh.

/Tom

Cheek pockets make a remarkable difference in brightness.

baileyman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:45 am Cheek pockets make a remarkable difference in brightness.

do they make a brighter sound, or less bright? I can't stand having cheek pockets.

sirisobhakya wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:27 pmI like my sound from behind the bell and when I play alone, but upon listening to a recording when in section I realized it is much brighter and has noticeably more bite than others to the point that it stands out.

Is your impression that your sound is too bright based on this single recording?

Over a 40+ year career as a band instrument repairman I did a lot of modification work for some very accomplished professional musicians. The work I did for them taught me that anything that inhibits the bell from vibrating (causing less high partials to sound) creates a darker sound. Anything that allows the bell to vibrate more freely (causing more high partials to sound) creates a brighter sound. With that in mind, I've moved braces (closer or farther away from the bell rim), removed braces altogether, removed lacquer, added lead to rims, even aggressively buff bells and bell bodies to thin them down.