TromboneChat

After spotting a used 1921 model baritone on Facebook the other day (a friend is looking for a used horn), I started wondering about some C.G. Conn history.
So I went to Wikipedia looking for some history on C.G. Conn and after reading most of the article I thought I'd get on here and ask about trombones made by Conn prior to their bankruptcy sale in 1969.

Are the Conn trombones made in the early 20th century highly sought after and if they are what for? Craftsmanship or just vintage charm or is it because certain models that aren't made anymore have a unique playing characteristic that certain individuals just like more than others? And I'm talking about horns made by C.G. Conn Ltd after they incorporated in 1915. Anyone own a trombone of that vintage? How's the overall quality?
Does anyone know if there were any changes in the manufacturing between the bankruptcy and the incorporation that affected overall quality?

I know there are some ppl on here with quite a breadth of knowledge about trombone lineage and I'm just trying to tap into a little bit of it. I find it interesting.

Cheers,
Robert

I own several old Conns.

Many of the pro line are made quite well. Especially some of the older Bass trombones. I'll leave it to folks like Chris Stearn (Fossil) and Leif (Savio) to expound on that.

I own a Conn 40H "Ballroom". It's 0.500" bore, built with Tuning in Slide and a shortened bell (supposedly for easier mute insertion). It plays very well, but the TIS mechanism makes the slide rather heavy. I'm sure if you want to play Be-Bop it's going to hold you back. Engraving on mine is interesting although it's not as nice as some of the Sternberg horns. It plays a lot bigger than its bore and bell would seem.

I played a 44H Vocabell (belonged to a band I was a member of). Again, well-made. Very unusual design. The bell is a bit thicker than normal but is made without a bell rim. As a result they are often referred to as "razor bell" instruments although the edge is nowhere near as sharp as a razor.

Old Conns are good players if they are in good condition. They may suit your playing or not. You really have to try one to see what you think.

You mention Wikipedia, but in this case the "Conn Loyalist" is a great source of information.
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/

The Conn trombones fabricated in Elkhart, Indiana until that production was moved to Abilene, Texas (in ~1972) were of legendary quality, and are still highly sought after – especially the Elkhart Conn 88Hs. The bass trombones of that era are equally praised and prized.

I have a 1916 Conn trombone. It’s silver, has a serial number, but no model number.

The quality seems high, and the engraving is very nice but not extravagant. I bought it because I have been reading about 20s and 30s jazz, and wanted to see whether the horns used by jazz players like Miff Mole sounded like modern horns.

Unsurprisingly, the sound is quite a bit different. Listen to Miff and His Little Molers on “You’re the Cream in my Coffee” (1928). He’s playing loud to be heard on the 1920s recording equipment, and the small bore size really puts an edge to his notes.

When I needed single-vision eyeglasses so that I could see the notes on a music stand, I bought frames just like Miff’s. Still can’t play like he did, though.

Conn started using the model numbers with letters in 1919. H was slide trombones, G was valve trombones, A was cornets, B was trumpets, D was French Horns. Naturally there were other letters for other instruments. It's all there in the Margaret Downey Banks' "History of the Conn Company".

I have quite a few Conn tenor trombones. The oldest is from 1902. My experience is to modern standards the tenors before the middle 30-ies are outdated for example the TIS 38h, 42h, 40h, 18h from those years It's the same with the Kings I own. They are really good from the mid 30ies but I have not found much use of the earlier. This does not mean they are bad trombones its just they do not fit the modern sound and do not blend very well with the modern horns in the section. All the old TIS horns especially have their own sound. It does not fit any of the context where I perform.

/Tom

I have recently acquired two Elkhart Conn 70H's. One from 1937, one from 1948. Both are very good trombones. To me they don't sound that different to the modern bass trombones I play and I would have no problem using them in a modern setting.

cozzagiorgi wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:39 am I have recently acquired two Elkhart Conn 70H's. One from 1937, one from 1948. Both are very good trombones. To me they don't sound that different to the modern bass trombones I play and I would have no problem using them in a modern setting.

You are right about old basses with TIS. They seem to work in big band settings even today I have an old TIS Conn 70h from 1952. It plays very well. I used it last week in a big band and will do the gig that's coming up on that horn. It fits the section sound perfectly. My problem is the old small TIS tenors. They do not fit anywhere. Does someone have the same experience? If so, what's the theory?

/Tom

These two horns are just phenomenal to play. I try to use them whenever I have the chance. My Conn 3B mouthpiece seems to be a great fit with them.

I've played my 40H in Big Band. It is a little different sound; probably because of the very heavy slide due to the TIS. But I can get it to blend with a typical "geezer band" section.

The heavy slide makes playing very fast runs difficult; I would never suggest it for a "Boppy" piece.

imsevimse wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:51 pm

cozzagiorgi wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:39 am I have recently acquired two Elkhart Conn 70H's. One from 1937, one from 1948. Both are very good trombones. To me they don't sound that different to the modern bass trombones I play and I would have no problem using them in a modern setting.

You are right about old basses with TIS. They seem to work in big band settings even today I have an old TIS Conn 70h from 1952. It plays very well. I used it last week in a big band and will do the gig that's coming up on that horn. It fits the section sound perfectly. My problem is the old small TIS tenors. They do not fit anywhere. Does someone have the same experience? If so, what's the theory?

/Tom

Oh I don't think they just fit big band. To me they sound perfectly fine for orchestra, symphonic wind band etc. I didn't use them yet in a british brass band style setting as I fear the high volume needed will let them sound overly bright. But one of these days I'll try it in a rehearsal.

I have a Conn No.1, Gold plated with engraving all the way up the bell, and a bathing beauty on there. Pretty sure its 100 years old now. I'm contacting the local trombone professionals to see if the want to try it out. If they like the sound they might be interested in buying it. I was originally owned by a professional Jazz player from the 20's. It is an excellent solo instrument with a very unique mellow sound.

Conn was the dominant manufacturer of band instruments for decades. When things got tough, they were sold to Macmillan (so they could combine school band music and instruments) who made some spectacularly bad decisions and crashed the company (including its archive). For a long time, there weren't many real alternatives but that bred a cohort of independent makers some of whom turned into proper companies.
During the war, they switched to munitions. My theory is that they learned some manufacturing shortcuts which is why pre-war horns feel more like modern bespoke horns than their post-war horns.
For me, Conn horns have a certain colour to them that suits me. YMMV.

My 1929 78H Plays just like a modern horn imo.

There's a limit to the practicality of trombones from the 1920s and earlier. Pitch went through a transition about then and Conn was delivering high and low pitch instruments. Another aspect of the practicality was that the average trombone bore was much smaller than it is today.

I had a 1920s 24h which was a beautiful instrument and played great. You cant play these iall musical situations. I currently have a '30s 32h, and it's tough to find a place to play it. Some old horn designs can make the jump and some can't.

One of the things about small horns, particularly the 24h, was that it played bigger than most people today think it should.

Models like the 70h, 78h and the 8h existed in the 20s and continue to be playable horns. It took until the 50s and 60s to put a trigger on the 8h (88h) , 78h (79h) and double triggers like the 62h or 73h.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 3:05 pm ... You can't play these in all musical situations. I currently have a '30s 32h, and it's tough to find a place to play it. Some old horn designs can make the jump and some can't.

This week I played my 1936 Conn 30H "Burkle" (0.494"/0.507" dual bore, 7" bell) with my "trad jazz" group. As far as I know. it fit in just fine with the ensemble. I continue to be impressed by its versatility, its sound (quite big if you want it to be), dynamic range, and pitch range - very low to very high (for me) - with a plain ole Conn 3 mouthpiece!

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 3:40 pm
This week I played my 1936 Conn 30H "Burkle" (0.494"/0.507" dual bore, 7" bell) with my "trad jazz" group. As far as I know. it fit in just fine with the ensemble. I continue to be impressed by its versatility, its sound (quite big if you want it to be), dynamic range, and pitch range - very low to very high (for me) - with a plain ole Conn 3 mouthpiece!

Yeah, that's a great application for that horn. I had one of those for a while, and I just couldn't make peace with it. It's too "in between" for the sound I try to get. Cool horns, though.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 3:49 pm

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 3:40 pm
This week I played my 1936 Conn 30H "Burkle" (0.494"/0.507" dual bore, 7" bell) with my "trad jazz" group. As far as I know. it fit in just fine with the ensemble. I continue to be impressed by its versatility, its sound (quite big if you want it to be), dynamic range, and pitch range - very low to very high (for me) - with a plain ole Conn 3 mouthpiece!

Yeah, that's a great application for that horn. I had one of those for a while, and I just couldn't make peace with it. It's too "in between" for the sound I try to get. Cool horns, though.

I think Jake Burkle may have had me in mind (long before I was born) when he designed the 30H.
It creates just the sound that I imagine and aspire to.

I'm grateful to John Sandhagen for rescuing this crumpled relic from the discard pile.
It may look like the bell was severely wrinkled (it was), and the lacquer isn't perfect, but the slide is now smooth - and it plays like a dream!

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:32 pm Conn started using the model numbers with letters in 1919. H was slide trombones, G was valve trombones, A was cornets, B was trumpets, D was French Horns. Naturally there were other letters for other instruments. It's all there in the Margaret Downey Banks' "History of the Conn Company".

I thought that the currently model Numbers came between 20/21.
I have a 1920 Conn large bore with no 8H sign anywhere..The Horn has all the shapes and parts in common with a newer 8H except that the bell throat is much bigger(but 8 1/2" wide)and it us all red brass..is This a special made one maybe..It is also marked L-Symph ..

What are you trying to fit into? My TIS horns play great. I do have an 18H Tait model, and it plays larger than it is. I don't use it because I am not a .500 guy. Otherwise, 70, 82, 18, 62, 35 all play great.