Valves

[TromboneSam]

So I’m most a jazz/commercial player and typically don’t have any use for a valve. As a result I own only straight horns, alto, small, medium, and large bore tenors. I’ve been thinking about adding a valve to my large bore (1969 8h) so I can play it in more classical settings without the scoffing. I’ve been playing a 36bo for the last few years with the army band but want something with a little more meat behind it.

Firstly, where do I start in terms of what kind of valve to look for? I’m aware of traditional, Hagmann, Thayer/axial flow, bach’s infinity valve, Christian Lindberg’s valve, the controversial bach K valve, and the shires trubore.

What valve would work easily alongside an old 8h? Is there a specific wrap shape I should look for?

In terms of wraps I know next to nothing about their nuances and tendencies. I know of the open Thayer wraps that are wide, like the Edwards alessi models, the standard open wrap like bach 42’s and 88hcl, closed wraps like the 42b & 88h, closed wraps like the old yamaha horns, the wide open wrap like the getzen eterna and standard shires rotor, and I’m sure there are a myriad of other shapes used throughout different makers. What characteristics are they known for and which might blend well with my horn?

As far as linkages, I remember my very first professional horn; my Bach 42b from the 70’s sounded like an old roller coaster climbing to the top of a slope, and my buddy’s benge 165f was nearly silent by comparison. I’ve heard that mechanical linkages used often by shires, bach, and edwards have gotten a lot more quiet and reliable over the years, but know of some people who stand by their sting linkages. I’m not looking for the shortest throw, but definitely don’t want a lot of movement in the thumb. Which one would honestly give me the least amount of noise?

When thinking about bore size, I’ve heard so many sides of the coin (more like cube?) that I don’t know where to begin. Would .547 for the wrap/tubing serve me okay?

Bracing is another issue that I’m sure is a consideration, and I’m sure is also dependent on which wrap/valve I choose, but are there wraps/bracings that are less invasive than others? Does it really affect the nodes/antinodes of the bell that much?

I’m also concerned with weight. The 8h is already much heavier than my other horns, but isn’t unbearable, and the last thing I’d want is a heavy horn making me tired too soon. Yes I know there are bass trombonists whose horns probably weigh 3 times what each of mine do, but that doesn’t mean I should necessarily deal with playing a heavy horn. Is there a valve/wrap type I should try to shy away from to avoid excess weight?

I suppose most importantly is the sound of the valve with the horn, with how it feels in my hand. If nothing else, does anybody have any recommendations or thoughts about where to begin with all this information? Is there already a compilation of this info somewhere that I’ve overlooked?

Any and all thoughts and wisdom are greatly appreciated!

- Sam

[hyperbolica]

You're going to spend more money putting a valve on than you will spend on a nice old 88h. Just get an additional horn, forget the surgery.

[Burgerbob]

Or even just a bell section if you can find one. Plenty of 88Hs out there.

[tbonesullivan]

As others have said, I would look for something used that already has a valve. There are lots of used horns out there, with string and mechanical linkages. I think there's a used Yamaha 682G at Dillon music right now. I checked it out, and it's NICE. String linkage and everything. They also have used 88Hs, both more modern, and elkhart.

[BGuttman]

A 682G should not have a string linkage. A 448 might, I'm not sure. My 682 linkage is absolutely silent.

There is a lot of mythology about valves, wraps, etc. Here are a couple of things I have actually verified:

1. Bach 42 rotor valves are unusually tight because the ports are undersize. This is not true of Conn, Holton, King, Yamaha, etc.

2. Axial (Thayer) valves are so open some people don't like them. But if you like it you won't be satisfied with anything else. Thayers must have an open wap.

3. Hagmanns are intermediate between a good rotor and an Axial. Again, they must be used with an open wrap.

4. Axials and Hagmanns MUST have direct linkages; strings don't work with them.

I'm sure everybody will have their particular slant on this. You really need to try everything to see what you prefer.

[Matt K]

Weird question... does the Conn slide fit in the Bach 36? I seem to remember some odd pairing that you wouldn't imagine would work but does for some odd reason.

Short of that, I'd find a tech and have them make the recommendation they're comfortable with. The most important thing is that it get put together well. Anything beyond that is going to be relatively marginal. But you can also just get another bell section like others are suggesting. Parts + labor is going to be north of $1000 if you go new, no matter what.

[tbonesullivan]

A 682G should not have a string linkage. A 448 might, I'm not sure. My 682 linkage is absolutely silent.

AH! You're right. It was completely silent though, and it's in great shape. If I was in the market, I would have left with it. https://www.dillonmusic.com/used-yamaha ... mbone.html

Weird question... does the Conn slide fit in the Bach 36? I seem to remember some odd pairing that you wouldn't imagine would work but does for some odd reason.

I think it may have been some Yamaha horns. The bach horns use the same nut for all of their tenons, even on the alto trombones, but the actual tenon internal size changes.

[Matt K]

Interesting. I ask because I had a Shires that had a small Bach connector on it, probably for a Bach 36, and it worked well with a Conn 88 bell section but that was custom and probably not a Bach part.

[TromboneSam]

Thanks for the replies guys!

As far as the 88h's go, I wasn't sure what sound I wanted exactly. I've owned an 88h in the past, but it's possible it was a dud. I'm a firm believer that there are amazing ones out there but was mainly looking for an exploration and explanation of different options with valves.

As it turns out my father-in-law had an early 70's Yamaha YSL-648 that he very graciously ended up giving me today. It plays really well! I even tried friction-fit swapping out the bells and slides between it and my 8h and both combinations were almost the same. The Yamaha bell may have had a tiny bit more "pop" on the articulations, but as far as timbre they're almost identical (listening from behind the horn). As far as the 648 plays, to me it's basically an 88h copy but with a yellow brass bell. I'm actually surprised how similar it is to the 88h I had in the past, string linkage and all.

For all intents and purposes, my quest for modification has reached an end for now. However, I'd still like some info about the about subjects relating to valves if anyone has any insight, regardless of the 8h. What factors really affect the valve's playability, blend, and characteristics? Thanks!

[Matt K]

For all intents and purposes, my quest for modification has reached an end for now. However, I'd still like some info about the about subjects relating to valves if anyone has any insight, regardless of the 8h. What factors really affect the valve's playability, blend, and characteristics? Thanks!

Really in my experience the most important is whether or not it's built and installed well. If it isn't, the horn probably isn't going to play well. That can include substantial leaks, huge burrs, misaligned rotors, etc.

After that, the differences become much more subtle. Seems like the more 'open' valves work well for me on heavier horns and more 'efficient valves work better for me on lighter horns. I had a Shires TB4762, Thayer, 1Y bell from the 10xx serials, so this was an older horn. I compared it to my T47/Rotor/2RVET7 and when I swapped the valves, both horns were not very happy with the change though to be honest it's been so long that I can't remember exactly why that was the case. I didn't have many other components at the time so I didn't investigate further. I suspect that if I had tried out several leadpipes and mouthpiece combinations I could have made the other work.

The real issue to me is that the horn is the sum of its parts and you can't make a blanket statement about how something will play because how much of an influence and in what direction it influences the playing depends on so many other variables. It isn't nearly as simple as "if you want a more open horn, put a Thayer on it". Though you'll see that as a common answer historically as well as anecdotally with some great players. I think that is a combination of the fact that the Bach 42(B) was one of the most commonly played horns around the time Thayers were introduced. On a Bach 42 body, the Thayer valve does tend to work quit well between the 1 piece bell, which at the time it was popular to be heavyweight, as well as the bass crook and relatively tight leadpipe. However, I can think of perhaps 5 Conn 88s that I've seen with a Thayer on it, which also is influenced by its design choice to have a narrower slide which makes it physiologically difficult to hold a Conn 88 with a Thayer and partially because that combination of parts doesn't tend to play as well with the Thayer. (Note that this setup is similar to the 'lighter' Shires setup I mentioned above.)

With all that said, and I'm paraphrasing Ben Griffin the former sales rep at Shires because I think it helps to think of them in this fashion, that rotors tend to be articulate at the expense of some broadness. Thayers tend to be more broad at the expense of some articulation. Neckpipes and Trubores (and I would put Hagmanns and maybe the Lindberg style rotors) are closer to splitting the middle. Perhaps the Trubores lean a little bit towards the broadness. But so much of that depends on the rest of the set up, preferences, and all sorts of stuff we have no idea how work.

[whitbey]

I have the Edwards CR valve. I like it. It is not a lot of mass, so it has less imprint on my playing. The bracing is done well so that there is less stress too. They have a Ian Bousfield Getzen version that probably got him to set down his 88.
I play a straight horn often myself. My preference in a valve is less dead mass rather then fancy valves. Just to give you an idea of where I am thinking.
Also, more toys is more fun.