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Hey guys, just some help needed here

So, I am a sophmore high school jazz trombonist, but I face some challenges when it comes to notes to NOT hit. For example, if playing in the Cmi7 chord in a piece, what notes should I not hit. I've been hearing to not hit 4ths or natural 7ths, but I don't know what those are. Am I missing basic theory or...

Anyways, thats my issue. Please give me your two cents on it

Don't hit the "brown note" (this is the note that causes everybody to lose all bodily function control)

You will hear that a note is bad as you play it.  If you keep a "list" you will hit fewer and fewer of them.

You will never hit a bad note if you never play

Quote from: Baridude on Today at 05:02 AM For example, if playing in the Cmi7 chord in a piece, what notes should I not hit. I've been hearing to not hit 4ths or natural 7ths, but I don't know what those are.

In a C chord, the 4th would be F.   

C... D... E... F

"natural 7th" is a new term to me. 

Perhaps they mean "major 7" which would be B, which is a dissonant half step off of the minor 7th, Bb, which is what you'd normally expect to hear in a C minor 7th chord.

If it's just one measure of Cmi7 you could try ascending using C major notes and descend using C minor to the next different lettered chord. 

Try F in the staff for your first note then g,a,b nat. and/or flat, c,d e and descend with e flat, d, c and A flat, g and f.   Try a high g and a, if possible.  See if you can keep the notes in groups of three - one triplet per beat, if not 8th's will work but ma throw off timing. 
  There's nothing wrong with playing the same notes over and over again.  I mention that because you may simply run out of ideas.  Take some of the notes from the melody for solo use trying to stay away from the octaves of the chord, if possible. 
 

Quote from: Baridude on Today at 05:02 AMI've been hearing to not hit 4ths or natural 7ths, but I don't know what those are. Am I missing basic theory or...

Yes, you are missing basic music theory, but don't get alarmed, because it is not an intimidating task to learn some basics. You can probably find some websites that offer simple and basic music theory for free.

"There are no wrong notes, just poor choices."

That being said, some note choices are "wrong-er" than others.  If you do play a note that seems "wrong", lean on it!  Play it three or four times!  Create some tension!  Then just move a half-step either way and you'll be the coolest cat in the room.

Seriously.  Playing jazz isn't like learning to swim.  It's more like learning to play chess, or maybe poker.  Even the geniuses know when to bluff their way through sometimes.

Would I be correct in assuming (given that this is May 8th) you have a concert coming up, a solo to play, and mild panic is setting in?  There's no quick-and-easy answer for you, I'm afraid, but there's a little bit of information that can help you.  Start out by learning about the chords in the piece you're playing.  Write them out (your band director can help you with this) and write out the corresponding scale.  Play them through, up and down, and learn how they sound.  Learn the difference between a Major (MA) and minor (mi) chord.  Then learn the difference between a Major seventh (MA7) and a dominant seventh (7) chord.  Believe it or not, that little bit of relatively simple music theory will go a long way.

It's not against the law to write down a few little "licks" or phrases to help yourself along.  Don't write down an entire solo, unless that's the only way you feel you're going to get through it.  Your audience would rather hear something simple that "fits" than a pyrotechnic display that sounds a lot like someone stepped on a cat's tail.

There are a ton of online resources to help you.  Maybe you could make this your summer project.  Go to YouTube and LISTEN to as much big band and small group jazz as you can.  Start off by searching for JJ Johnson and see where that leads you.  Don't limit yourself to trombonists, either.  You can find numerous recordings where the transcribed solo is included, and you can watch the music go by as you listen.  Here are a couple to get you started.

http://trombone.org/jfb/library/jfb-beginimprov.asp

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jj+johnson+transcribed+solos

It's important to remember that learning to improvise is a life-long process.  You're not going to be able to improvise overnight.  I'm 56 years old and am still learning.  

Good luck!

Along with a short list of "bad" notes, maybe make up a short list of "safe" notes on given pieces. If you are really stuck, try making an interesting and sustained rhythm pattern on just a couple of "safe" notes, then end on one of your "safe" notes up an octave if possible.

Also, I don't think it is ever wrong to just play the melody line in as nice a tone as possible, maybe simply making some variations on articulations and rhythm patterns. Especially if you go after some others who have jigged all around - the audience might appreciate someone such as you standing up and re-stating the melody line sweetly.

...Geezer

 Here is a quick primer on learning some scales and arpeggios.
#1 - learn your 12 major scales  ascending and descending. The major arpeggio would  use scale steps  1 3 5 8 (octave above scale step 1) 5 3 1.  On paper these look like C, D, etc.
#2 - same scale with a flatted scale step 7. The scale now is played scale step 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, flat 7th, 8.  These are your dominant scales. The arpeggios would use scale steps 1, 3, 5, flat 7, 8, flat 7, 5, 3, 1. On paper these chords look like C7, D7, etc.
#3 - same scale as #2 above and add a flatted scale step 3. The scale now is played scale step 1, 2, flat 3, 4, 5, 6, flat 7, 8. These are your minor 7th cords.  The arpeggios would you scale steps 1, flat 3, 5, flat 7, 8. flat 7, 5, flat 3, 1. On paper these chords like Cm7, Dm7, etc.

If you do this, and it will take time, you will have a lot of ammo in your belt when it comes to improvisation.

There are some variations to the writing of chord symbols. See your teacher about that.

Bottom line - use your ears to determine the "right" notes! The other bottom line - have fun!

Quote from: Baridude on Today at 05:02 AMHey guys, just some help needed here

So, I am a sophmore high school jazz trombonist, but I face some challenges when it comes to notes to NOT hit. For example, if playing in the Cmi7 chord in a piece, what notes should I not hit. I've been hearing to not hit 4ths or natural 7ths, but I don't know what those are. Am I missing basic theory or...

Anyways, thats my issue. Please give me your two cents on it


Unless you're playing something modal, where you're hanging out on C-7 for an extended period of time, there is probably a broader context to what you're doing.  So, for example, a C-7 is commonly used in a pattern "C-7 | F7 | Bb" (ii-V7-I). In which case the 4th (F) in the key of C-7 is not only fine, but actually technically in the key because it is tonicizing Bb.  However, you'd usually want to stick to notes "in the chord" because they lead somewhere. A very simplistic example using C-7 | F7 | Bb again... you may play one note over each chord Bb(7th) -> C(5th) -> D(3rd). Then as you get better at identifying things you can embellish.  Bb,C  -> F,Eb -> C#,D.

You may also see patterns such as C-7 F7 | D-7 G7 etc. In which case, you are actually in the key of Bb  major and then C major. 

This is rather hard to explain over text so you may want to study at least briefly with someone who can tell you how pop chords work and give you feedback on how to make something intelligent over it! Its a skill I wish I would have learned much sooner in my development because in reality, its not that hard but its hard to pickup without someone explaining it to you in the moment.

Because different methods work better for different people, here's an alternative:

Don't bother with the theory right now - save that for later. Instead, get a recording of the specific passage you are going to be playing with, and play along with it. In particular, play *one* specific melody with it and master that one melody in that section. After you have that one melody mastered, make one alteration to it and master that, then see which version you prefer. Take your favorite, alter one more thing. Repeat the process a lot.

This drives your ears very strongly to figure out how the music works, and it kind of teaches you the music theory from the "other end". A very practical way to learn how music works. And, FYI, many of the jazz greats in history learned primarily via this method, not by diving into theory first.

Who are you listening to?

Don't play notes that sound bad.

How do you learn that? Play your horn!

Sometimes non-chord tones sound right. Sometimes chord tones sound wrong. Anything sounds right when it's played right. Anything sounds wrong when it's played wrong.

Listen.

This introductory video is interesting. https://www.youtube.com/user/JazzEveryone

If you play a note that sounds bad immediately take it up or down a half step.   
Salvation is but a half step away. 

Definitely learn the notes of the chords, as everybody has suggested. I am a freshman in high school, and I learned improv in the summer. On May 4th this year, I found out 10 minutes before a performance that I would be playing the first improv solo in the first song of the night, which was mostly (if not completely) Bb7, Eb7, and F7, with 4/4 time quarter=220, and not blues. I wrote notes that worked in all three chords on a little post it note and stuck it on my bell, and if began to start getting lost as to what notes I should play in order to fit the chords, I'd look at it and play those notes.
When you do hit a "wrong" note, which will almost certainly happen every time, don't make it sound wrong. Go somewhere with it. Play a half step up or down, as somebody already suggested, to "resolve" it. Or, gliss it up or down and land on a right note. "Wrong" notes will happen less when you learn more theory and play more improv solos.
Hope it helps!

Some notes sound wrong if you don´t resolv them. som notes allways sound ok or good. Play som "wrong" note and make them sound good going to a good resolving note. On C min7 the F does sound good anyway, on C Maj 7 the F does need some movemet, maybe down a half step to E. Good.

I 1985 Bill Watrous demonstrated that all note on all chords are possible if you can resolv them, going to a god resting note.

Quote from: svenlarsson on May 10, 2017, 06:54AMSome notes sound wrong if you don´t resolv them. som notes allways sound ok or good. Play som "wrong" note and make them sound good going to a good resolving note. On C min7 the F does sound good anyway, on C Maj 7 the F does need some movemet, maybe down a half step to E. Good.

I 1985 Bill Watrous demonstrated that all note on all chords are possible if you can resolv them, going to a god resting note.

Amen!

...Geezer

I think you should never focus on what not to do, because that is just a waste of energy. You can analyze your playing afterwords if you record. If you do that you might hear some things you like and some things you don't like. Always try to focus on what made it sound good. This way you will probably build your own style.

If you think of what you want things to be then you have a vision. If you think of what you DON'T want it to be then you lack a vision. It effects the overall playing enormously. For me 

So if you focus on that f in C-minor you will play it, and since you are not forbidden to play anything else the vision is: "I will play something with an f in it". The result will be the note f and what ever you think fits after the note.

If you focus on not hitting the f in C-major because it is no-no in a C-major chord, then there is NO vision of what to do instead.

One solution is to experiment with pentatonic scales. On the C-major you could aim for a C-penta or G-penta or any other pentatonic scale you decide and see what happens.

It is a material you can experiment with on several chords. Use a small fragment of the scale, no need for a complete scale. Learn the "sound"of the pentatonic scale, and then learn to start on any note. Think sound rather than notes.

Eaven though you limit yourself to only use a few notes of a pentatonic scale and it is a limitation  it means to focus on what to do, insted of what NOT to do. This is to have a vision while playing.

/Tom

Thanks y'all! This stuff really helped me. Look's like I have my work cut out for me.

I second the motion on pentatonics as a starting point.   Learn all the relative major and minor pentatonics.  If you already know all your major scales then just leave out the 4th and 7th notes.    The major pentatonic is 1-2-3-5-6-8.  Start it on 6 and you have the relative minor pentatonic. 
As an example, when playing a basic 12 bar blues solo in the key of F every note of the F major pentatonic will sound ok on every chord.   The F minor pentatonic (Ab major relative) will also sound ok on every chord.  Mixing them together gives you even more vocabulary to choose from.

Quote from: svenlarsson on May 10, 2017, 06:54AMSome notes sound wrong if you don´t resolv them. som notes allways sound ok or good. Play som "wrong" note and make them sound good going to a good resolving note. On C min7 the F does sound good anyway, on C Maj 7 the F does need some movemet, maybe down a half step to E. Good.

I 1985 Bill Watrous demonstrated that all note on all chords are possible if you can resolv them, going to a god resting note.

While this is literally true, in my experience it is not the most valuable way to start improvising, to flail around and try to see if some notes sound better than others. Problem is, beginners don't really have the in-ear vocabulary to easily tell at first. Hence my suggestion to first learn a melody that clearly fits the entirety of the improvised section, and learning to figure out how the form works by changing the melody slowly and deciding what changes work better than others. It gives beginners a stronger framework from which to work, and it forces them to figure out the musical phrase first, which is really the most important. Finding which notes are better than others really is secondary to simply knowing how the phrase works, large-scale.

The other problem with "move up or down a half-step and there's always a good note there" is that it's not true, given that a phrase is always evolving over time. A good note one beat ago may not be a good note now.

Don't hit any of these notes:

http://www.andreaconti.it/audio/allofme1.mp3

Quote from: Baridude on May 11, 2017, 04:56AMThanks y'all! This stuff really helped me. Look's like I have my work cut out for me.

I think the suggested starting point as per the topic name is probably not the right one and you should read the three really good topics on improvisation that were on the forum recently. Most of the jazz experts on this forum contributed valuable information:

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,99032.0.html

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,96083.0.html

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,99638.0.html

Frankly, there are no short cuts to being able to improvise and you do have to absorb the jazz language and learn the theory. I suggest the main considerations are:

Listen to a lot of jazz in the style you wish to play.
Learn your chord structures and play lots of arpeggios in your daily practice.
Learn your scales and play them in your daily practice.
Learn the melodies of the tunes you wish to play and start off by modifying these melodies for your solos.

Quote from: Baridude on May 11, 2017, 04:56AMThanks y'all! This stuff really helped me. Look's like I have my work cut out for me.

I think the suggested starting point as per the topic name is probably not the right one and you should read the three really good topics on improvisation that were on the forum recently. Most of the jazz experts on this forum contributed valuable information:

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,99032.0.html

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,96083.0.html

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,99638.0.html

Frankly, there are no short cuts to being able to improvise and you do have to absorb the jazz language and learn the theory. I suggest the main considerations are:

Listen to a lot of jazz in the style you wish to play.
Learn your chord structures and play lots of arpeggios in your daily practice.
Learn your scales and play them in your daily practice.
Learn the melodies of the tunes you wish to play and start off by modifying these melodies for your solos.