TromboneChat

Even more so lately, I'm having a hard time getting a sound out the horn and even the mouthpiece alone.
 No matter what placement my lips are in, inside the mouthpiece, the same thing tends to happen .
 Things would work for a few days or sometimes a few minutes and then it's hard to play or get a sound out.  When this happens, I have to blow lots of air into the horn, to get notes out. It's a lot of work and not consistent.If I switch mouthpieces, my lips would feel fresh for a short amount of time and then the same thing keeps happening.  Sometimes it gets to the point when I can't even get a sound out the horn.  Switching mouthpieces, again things work for  a short amount of time and then it gets harder to play. This also happens when I change my Embouchure, things work for a short period of time and it gets harder to play.   The longer I settle on a mouthpiece, or even a embouchure the worst it gets.  There's no pain, and I don't feel tired. Things just stopped working. could it be nerve damage? Has anyone experienced anything similar?

Sorry to hear that you're having a hard time at the moment. You probably don't need any of us to tell you that frequently changing mouthpieces and embouchure is not a healthy, or effective solution and that you need to address the actual problem. I would think that if everything works, even for a short period of time, that it isn't nerve damage. I'm no expert on this by any means, but maybe try the Caruso method. There are youtube videos by Julie Landsman that are worth checking out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdSShjFHqDk&list=PLV1EZqzK8-OM7CZmKW9NFAauYZJTl5FXZ

If it doesn't help, it certainly won't hurt.

Best of luck

If I were you, I'd get in touch with Doug Elliott.  He is on the forum here.

Yes I've  already seen Doug about it.

Another resource might be David Vining.  He himself had embouchure problems you can read about here: https://davidvining.com/embouchure-help-2/embouchure-help/

May or may not be related at all to what you are experiencing.

1. Check for leaks in the horn.
2. Maybe possibly try tied whole note scales at 70 bpm, 60 bpm if you're younger than 50.

I'm scared for you by just reading what you typed.  I hope it's nothing serious. 

I know that you play really well when it's working.  I don't think I've actually seen you when it was bad.  And I haven't really seen you play enough to catch what you do when you're tired.

I had a student once who had a protruding top front tooth - the root caused a bump in the gum right under the mouthpiece rim, and caused a similar problem.  Everything would work for a while but then the pressure point would shut it down.  Is there any chance you have something like that?

 I just finished reading the article about David Vinning, very interesting. A lot of what he was going through I can relate to for the most part.
Hey Doug,  there's nothing protruding in my dental or gum structure.  Every time I came to see you and tried out the mouthpieces, it was always something about a new mouthpiece to my lips, and I was able to have some type of sensation when a new shape or form was introduced to my lips, but shortly after I literally could barely get a sound out. Just air would blow the horn. so the very few gigs that I actually get, I would have to overcompensate a lot with air  just to get some sound out the horn. for a while I thought it was my overuse of practice mutes, but I haven't used  one in the last couple of months. also if I change embouchure my , it's the same progress as if I am trying out a new mouthpiece, things just start working after a short period of time . This is getting worse actually, and it happens to me no matter which horn or a mouthpiece I use.

I think it's something that changes as you play more and get tired.  Maybe if I can watch you play longer sometime, long enough so I can see what's really going on.

"I don't feel tired. Things just stopped working"
That's a clue.  Some people don't feel tired even when their muscles are giving out.  I don't know your practice habits, but maybe you need to rest more often.  Or use less mouthpiece pressure.  Or use MORE mouthpiece pressure.  It really depends on what you're doing, and I've only seen you play a little bit.

 I can play pedal tones all day long perfectly oddly.

Yes, I have very similar problems to yours. So much so that I have very recently had to stand down from playing 1st Trombone in a couple of Big Bands. I kept thinking that I could solve the problem by modifying my technique somehow, but my playing was still declining and it just was not fair on the other players to think that I could continue to lead the section. Plus, I was always used to people saying I had a great tone and having my solos clapped, every time. That just was not happening over the last twelve months as things got worse.   

Unfortunately, I cannot give you any solutions, only to say that I think it is probably related to some medical condition and not a playing fault, since you seem to have tried all the things that Doug suggested. In my case I have several conditions that seem to impact; plus the effects of old age (I'm 79 BTW). My doctor knows nothing about embouchure and cannot say medically what is happening. I know several older brass players who have experienced the same thing and they typically refer to it as 'losing your lip'.

One difference between you and I  is that I do have some pain in my lip after playing for about an hour and a half. I lose my top range before the pain cuts in, so it could be that trying to correct that with more pressure, is what causes the pain. And since one of my medical conditions is soft bones, I have teeth that move and a trauma above my top front tooth. It aches after a long playing session. I have had an infusion to strengthen the bones but so far it has not produced any improvement.

I would have a good look at your medical conditions and see if any of those could be causing problems. In my case it may be a combination of various conditions, which include Cervical Spondylosis, Elevated Ferritin (causes joint problems), DISH, Osteoporosis, Sleep Apnea (improving) and Aging Skin Changes https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/004014.htm . I have these problems under treatment (except the old skin) and I have checked with my older friends and they all have similar lists. Like I said, the unfortunate thing is that my conditions are mostly related to age and seem to impact on my trombone playing. But I am not exactly sure which are the problem causers and one cannot get any positive medical advice. I still enjoy a fairly active life and get plenty of exercise each day with two long walks and some running and cycling.

I think there does come a time in life when you "loose your lip" but that does not mean I have given up. I still practice every day and I am addressing the various medical problems in the hope that I can get my lip back, or at least slow the process and find some way I can continue playing.

I do not know how old you are and maybe none of this applies. I do know the effects on my playing have been almost exactly as you described, even to the point of a change of mouthpieces causing an improvement for a while. A month or so back, I was taking four mouthpieces to a gig. Similarly with embouchure changes.

A couple of things you did not mention are: First, when I play a long note into my tuner the needle wavers sharp and flat. I just can't keep a note in tune. Second, I no longer have enough breath to play long phrases without taking a breath where you shouldn't.

Having given up the stressful and hard-on-your-lip 1st trom spot, I am now working on a list of tunes I can play with a small jazz group. I have changed the keys where necessary to avoid too much high range playing and have marked the spots where I can take a breath without spoiling the continuity.

Best of luck with your trying to solve the problem. Let us know if you have any success.

It is not uncommon at all to have some aspects of your "form" change over the course of a gig or practice session, as you go from "fresh" to "not so fresh." 
Or gradually over the course of a year or decade.

I have seen the OP (landok) only a few times, and I think only one was an actual lesson (or maybe two).  So I don't really feel like you could say he's "tried all the things that Doug suggested."

Quote from: landok on May 03, 2017, 03:31PM I can play pedal tones all day long perfectly oddly.

Problem solved!  Just play parts with only pedal tones

Seriously, have you changed medications recently?  Some blood pressure and diabetes medications can affect muscle control.

 

I did not know that Bruce. I did not have it on my list before but I also have Hypertension and take Karvezide. I have not changed medications however. Have been taking some new things so I will have a look at those a bit more closely.

I used to take Dyazide (triamterene/hydrochlorothiazide) and it didn't seem to affect my playing.  I think they are probably similar.  They took it out of my cocktail when my blood pressure went down a bit.

Some people react to beta blockers with reduced muscular control (never been a problem for me).

I used to take Dyazide (triamterene/hydrochlorothiazide) and it didn't seem to affect my playing.  I think they are probably similar.  They took it out of my cocktail when my blood pressure went down a bit.

Some people react to beta blockers with reduced muscular control (never been a problem for me).