TromboneChat

I am a Junior in college studying something completely unrelated, but have kept up trombone as much as I could. Categorically, I would place my self as a "decent college player, nothing special" especially for not having tons of time to practice amidst my studies. I have always been told I have a wonderful sound concept/tone, technique, and sense of musicality. However, ever since high school, I remember being chronically told to play out more. I'm not a timid player, but I feel like I am in general more of an inhibited type, in personality as well. This is something I would like to get better at. I am currently sitting lead in our Jazz Ensemble and feel like I am unable to compensate for our Bass Trombonist (very strong player) or properly sit on top of my section sometimes (same thing happened in high school...another very loud bass player). Even when I feel like I am really projecting, I can barely hear my self on any recording compared to the trumpet or sax sections.

Should I focus more on breathing/lung capacity? Just more practice at higher dynamics? Or is a lot of this just an attitude thing? I guess I am a bit of a perfectionist and get freaked out about messing things up or playing too loud. I don't want the bass player to have to back down...he's a very fine player and isn't by any means blasting. I just feel like I need to be doing my part better.

Sorry if I couldn't get my thoughts together better on this, it's hard to describe.

Attitude-wise:

Quote from: djlovell on Apr 30, 2017, 06:32PMI guess I am a bit of a perfectionist and get freaked out about messing things up or playing too loud.

This is something I've recently struggled with in one of my bands. I'm playing lead, and it's terrifying, and the consistent comment for the first year was that I didn't play out enough. I eventually chatted with the bandleaders about it.
"You always yell at the trombones for being too loud!" I pointed out. "I don't want to be part of the problem!"
"Not YOU," they replied. "We have never heard YOU playing too loud. If we hear you playing too loud, WE WILL LET YOU KNOW."

So I've doubled my volume this year, and to my surprise, everyone seems really happy about it.

The point of this story: if you have a history of underplaying, then don't worry about playing too loud. If you're too loud, THE DIRECTOR WILL LET YOU KNOW.



And one of those "isms" to keep in the back of your head:
If you make a mistake, make it LOUD!

A thing about trombones--Even if nobody can HEAR what you're playing, they can tell when you're screwing up based on what your slide is doing. So just play out--you're not fooling anyone anyway. 
And it's easier to hit the high notes when you've got more air moving through the horn!
Just play out!


Equipment-wise:

Quote from: djlovell on Apr 30, 2017, 06:32PMEven when I feel like I am really projecting, I can barely hear my self on any recording compared to the trumpet or sax sections.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a pretty common problem with big bands, and it's why small/bright/paint-peeling trombones are popular--you can cut through all the noise with minimal effort. I think shallower mouthpieces are supposed to help with this, too (?).

Trumpets will always win. Don't beat yourself up for losing to trumpets.

In these recordings, were you playing anywhere near a mic?


Practice-wise:

Quote from: djlovell on Apr 30, 2017, 06:32PMShould I focus more on breathing/lung capacity? Just more practice at higher dynamics?
Sure.

Hi. I've played in many different combo's over the years Just finished Legally Blonde and had to use an earplug in my left ear because of a loud Trumpet and I can tell you that Louder may get you heard first but it doesn't guarantee that you will play something worth hearing. I've had a couple of students ruined by trying to compete with a loud band. It was in a concert hall and it wasn't just loud it was devastating. Max

Bass players, especially college bass players,  have this tendency to think pp = pound plenty and mf  = Maynard Ferguson. If they are overbalancing the section, they are too loud. The section has to work together to make that voice come through. Each section has to work together to make music. Its not a competition.

The LEAD trombone has to be a leader, and lead primarily by example. I've seen technically inferior players do better on lead when they are more confident and interpret the music better. You need a smaller bore, bright sounding horn to play lead so everyone in the section can hear and follow you. Big horns make a lot of sound, but its all mush, comparatively. I've heard bands that are very loud, but there's no definition to the sound. There's more to playing in jazz band than just playing loud.

What brand of horn are you using?  I'd hope it wouldn't be an Olds.

I recall playing in an orchestra section with a second player who played everything super loud with absolutely zero musicality. Awful experience.

I see from you profile that you're got a Conn 24H and a Marcinkiewicz 12; is that what you're using for lead playing?

When listening to recordings of your group, when the entire ensemble is playing you will have problems picking out the middle voices, that doesn't mean you are underplaying or not contributing to the sound the middle voices get sucked into and blend with the ensemble.  How are the sections soli and your solo lines come through in the recordings?  Many younger inexperienced bass trombonists have a tendency to overplay and blast he may be playing too loud rather than you aren't playing loud enough, if he's playing so loud he is covering up the lead voice he's at fault.  Is the director happy with the volume you are producing?  If he's not asking you to play out more he probably is.  If in doubt ask the director if he's happy with the balance.  First step is to confirm whether or not you perception that you aren't playing loud enough is correct or not. 

Quote from: JohnL on Apr 30, 2017, 08:23PMI see from you profile that you're got a Conn 24H and a Marcinkiewicz 12; is that what you're using for lead playing?

Correct

Good new is that id could be you, your mouthpiece, or your horn and/or every permuation of those!

Who do you listen to? Can you identify a recording that you have listened to where you can say, "That's exactly what I'd like to sound like!"

Quote from: djlovell on May 01, 2017, 07:48AMQuote from: JohnL on Apr 30, 2017, 08:23PMI see from you profile that you're got a Conn 24H and a Marcinkiewicz 12; is that what you're using for lead playing?
Correct
Just wanted to make sure you weren't trying to play lead on the big horn. It's not as uncommon as you might think (and hope).

Let's work on making the weaknesses you describe into stronger points.

1.  Decent college player, nothing special. 
    There's a reason that you have first chair - you're good.  Don't forget that.
2.  Not a timid player, needs to play out more.
    A lot of your band members very well may respect the sound you have now.  When you
    describe play out more I'm not sure if that means play louder while rehearsing or hit
    the bar scene for gigs.
3.  I'm in general more of the inhibited type. 
    I remember Andre Agassi mentioning on t.v. that image is everything.  If you can better
    yourself in anyways image wise or anything else for that matter then by all means do it.     
    It just gets harder as you get older.
4.  Can't hear myself on recordings.
    I would work on this issue first.  Why go thru all the work if the final product won't
    be self gratifying.

How much listening to big band bone sections have you done?  Do you have any favorite lead bone players?

If the answers are no, then I'd respectfully submit that one place to start is by listening to the various great big bands, Kenton, Basie, Ellington, Herman, etc., and/or some of the modern bands like the Big Phat Band, and the military bands like the Airmen of Note and the Jazz Ambassadors.

Lead playing is an art that starts with the sound concept.  (Okay, I guess that pretty much describes everything we try to do with the trombone.  )  Articulation, style, phrasing, balance -- what's the french term? je ne sais quoi?  Take all of that into your section rehearsals and record for analysis later.  (You do get together periodically to work on things outside the ensemble rehearsal, right?)

Get the balance right in a section rehearsal and bring that back to the band.

--Andy in OKC

My suggestion is to call for a trombone sectional to "balance the section".
You need a listener with a good ear, like the band director, to help.
Pick music that the trombones are playing big "phat" chords.
The listener will say something like "more lead", "less bass" until the section is balanced.
Now you know how loud to play.

Other ideas:

Play as musically as you can. Beautiful phrases, lots of dynamics.
Over articulate until the section starts to follow.
Sit in the middle of the section.
Practice until you are confident, then play with confidence.
 

Who are you listening to?

Quote from: djlovell on Apr 30, 2017, 06:32PMI am currently sitting lead in our Jazz Ensemble and feel like I am unable to compensate for our Bass Trombonist (very strong player) or properly sit on top of my section sometimes (same thing happened in high school...another very loud bass player). Even when I feel like I am really projecting, I can barely hear my self on any recording compared to the trumpet or sax sections

I suggest first of all you have a section that does not listen and cannot follow you even if you lead well.

First no matter what they need to play so as to hear you. Else they are too loud.

Second they need to follow you.

Try running or swimming!

Try running or swimming!