Earl Williams Trombone

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Sun May 23, 2010 8:27 am

Quote from: dj kennedy on May 23, 2010, 08:18AMquinn got it

Probably wanted the end of the spectrum.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sun May 23, 2010 8:40 am

Quote from: dj kennedy on May 23, 2010, 08:18AMquinn got itIf that's the case, it's probably going into his personal collection. Probably best - keeps it out of circulation.

Us average schmoes have a chance of outbidding quinn on horns he's planning to flip, but something he wants for his personal collection? Just let him have it - he's gonna get it anyway.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Sun May 23, 2010 1:19 pm

Not surprising at all. Looks like the bell was cut in about the middle of the valve section. Maybe not and it can be salvaged sure hope so.

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Sun May 23, 2010 6:06 pm

Even if you were to solder that bell on another throat you would need some Earl tubes to make it a Williams-like Williams, would you not? Or in other words, wasn't it the whole package that makes these horns what they are? Wasn't what Earl's special talent making the tubes?

Without knowing what was the motivation from Matt/Quinn, my reasoning for him wanting it is that it makes a great conversation piece, but not much more than that. It would be nice for him to participate in the discussion here, but for some reason he chooses not to. I know some here actually spend time with him, and I wonder if they would mind asking him what his plans are for the "horn"??

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sun May 23, 2010 6:20 pm

Quote from: Dan Martin on May 23, 2010, 06:06PMEven if you were to solder that bell on another throat you would need some Earl tubes to make it a Williams-like Williams, would you not? Or in other words, wasn't it the whole package that makes these horns what they are? Wasn't what Earl's special talent making the tubes? But if one already has a WW with a trashed flare? To someone like that, this horn might be worth quite a bit. They could repair the damaged horn without having to destroy another.

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Sun May 23, 2010 6:31 pm

Quote from: JohnL on May 23, 2010, 06:20PMBut if one already has a WW with a trashed flare? To someone like that, this horn might be worth quite a bit. They could repair the damaged horn without having to destroy another.

Thats a good point.

I still think it makes the ultimate nut cracker for a Williams nut.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Sun May 23, 2010 8:01 pm

it also has a curve slide brace part
so it could be an earl experiment at bass trumpet
and mpc trumpet to larger shank
or somebody whacked up a ww to get a valve rush
-----------------
a mid throat part was sil plated
very interesting construction

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon May 24, 2010 4:19 am

Quote from: Dan Martin on May 23, 2010, 06:06PMEven if you were to solder that bell on another throat you would need some Earl tubes to make it a Williams-like Williams, would you not? Or in other words, wasn't it the whole package that makes these horns what they are? Wasn't what Earl's special talent making the tubes?

Without knowing what was the motivation from Matt/Quinn, my reasoning for him wanting it is that it makes a great conversation piece, but not much more than that. It would be nice for him to participate in the discussion here, but for some reason he chooses not to. I know some here actually spend time with him, and I wonder if they would mind asking him what his plans are for the "horn"??
There's been a few Williams slides spotted on Selmers and Bundys - finding a slide wouldn't be impossible. I know where 2 original Earl Williams slides are, but getting one of them is another story...

If you had a slide and that bell flare - basically all you would need is... a bell throat, tuning slide (depending if the slide was TIS or not), goose neck - and assembly. All something that could be accomplished by John Dudda, or any tech with the equipment and experience (John Dudda has access to some original parts, and has built some Williams horns - is one reason I mentioned him).

Then send it off, get it gold plated.

T.

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Mon May 24, 2010 6:33 am

Don't forget to ship it to Sherry to get the engraving touched up!

You would have to sell the one you got just to pay for all the work it needs.

Or you would blow through it when you got it from the seller, and all the wild turkeys would run out from under the brush and you would bag your limit every time you went out. Then you would be seen with it hanging around your neck on a string playing Ravels Bolero and a bag of turkeys slung over your shoulder. Forever becoming know as the pied piper of Lenoir.

But I digress.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon May 24, 2010 7:15 am

Quote from: Dan Martin on May 24, 2010, 06:33AM Don't forget to ship it to Sherry to get the engraving touched up!

You would have to sell the one you got just to pay for all the work it needs.

Or you would blow through it when you got it from the seller, and all the wild turkeys would run out from under the brush and you would bag your limit every time you went out. Then you would be seen with it hanging around your neck on a string playing Ravels Bolero and a bag of turkeys slung over your shoulder. Forever becoming know as the pied piper of Lenoir.

But I digress.
Turkey season just about kilt me this yr.... and no birds in the bag to show for it.

Yea, it may would need a trip to Sherry - depends on how it would polish out - but now the world will never know...

It should cost less, than if you got John Dudda to build a new one from scratch. I think Richard got one built from scratch - but with a slide, and flare in hand... it prolly would have been substantially less than a complete build. Just saying...

Come on Sept & Oct ! Big daddy needs some geese and ducks. Need to lay the smack down on 'em !

T.

ttf_Chris Fidler · Post by **ttf_Chris Fidler** » Mon May 24, 2010 7:17 am

You dudes are all nutters............

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon May 24, 2010 7:18 am

Quote from: Chris Fidler on May 24, 2010, 07:17AMYou dudes are all nutters............

T.

ttf_Chris Fidler · Post by **ttf_Chris Fidler** » Mon May 24, 2010 11:05 am

Kinda wish I'd hung on to my Williams I sold for $3000.
I'm sure I could have gotten double that amount after the 41 pages of hero worship on here.....

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon May 24, 2010 11:53 am

Quote from: Chris Fidler on May 24, 2010, 11:05AMKinda wish I'd hung on to my Williams I sold for $3000.
I'm sure I could have gotten double that amount after the 41 pages of hero worship on here.....

I'll sell ya mine for $8K USD.

Just kidding.

T.

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Mon May 24, 2010 12:38 pm

This is what is comming to me this week!! I don't know for sure what model it is,4, or 6 but I do know its mine and has been shipped. Better pictures will be up after it gets here!
7& 1/2 inch bell. Nickel slide. Made by Williams, no spike.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon May 24, 2010 12:40 pm

Friction fit?

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Mon May 24, 2010 12:46 pm

Friction fit, tuning in slide. !! Looks like its in fabulous shape.

ttf_Chris Fidler · Post by **ttf_Chris Fidler** » Mon May 24, 2010 1:23 pm

Is the mute friction fit too?

ttf_John Beers Jr. · Post by **ttf_John Beers Jr.** » Mon May 24, 2010 1:25 pm

Looks like a beautiful horn, Dan. I'm sure it'll clean up great.

One of these days I gotta find someone in the northeast who'll let me testdrive his/her Williams...

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Mon May 24, 2010 1:29 pm

Quote from: John Beers Jr. on May 24, 2010, 01:25PMLooks like a beautiful horn, Dan. I'm sure it'll clean up great.

One of these days I gotta find someone in the northeast who'll let me testdrive his/her Williams...

If you are ever in Washington State. By all means come on by.

Friction fit mute? Don't you just love it when they hit the floor. I think they should all be labeled lick and stick.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Mon May 24, 2010 4:08 pm

Dan you want a test drive get a hold of Chris Amemiya at Tula's Club on Sunday nights. Tell him I sent you.!

ttf_Trav1s · Post by **ttf_Trav1s** » Mon May 24, 2010 4:33 pm

Quote from: Dan Martin on May 24, 2010, 12:46PMFriction fit, tuning in slide. !! Looks like its in fabulous shape.

TIS = awesome

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Mon May 24, 2010 5:03 pm

Quote from: tsmart on May 24, 2010, 07:15AM
It should cost less, than if you got John Dudda to build a new one from scratch. I think Richard got one built from scratch - but with a slide, and flare in hand... it prolly would have been substantially less than a complete build. Just saying...

If you're talking about the Richard from Hawaii, John Duda made an 8 for me from scratch. The parts were leftover from when he still had the rights to the Williams name so I'm considering it a Williams even if it doesn't say so on the bell.

John Sandhagen put together a Frankenbone Williams 6 for me using a Donelson Williams bell, King 2B+ hand slide tubes, and all other parts from the Tulsa Williams shop. Great horn.

Aloha,
Richard

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon May 24, 2010 6:20 pm

Quote from: John Beers Jr. on May 24, 2010, 01:25PMLooks like a beautiful horn, Dan. I'm sure it'll clean up great.

One of these days I gotta find someone in the northeast who'll let me testdrive his/her Williams...

If you are ever in the South East... say Western NC - your welcome to test drive my Williams #3.
It blows big, like a .500 bore, but is a .480 bore.

Steve Frioux from the US Airforce Heritage band (a friend of DJ's) test drove my Williams - he was impressed.

You're welcome to try it anytime John, if ya happen get by this way.

Congrats on the horn Dan!!!

T.

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Mon May 24, 2010 7:13 pm

Quote from: jnoxon on May 24, 2010, 04:08PMDan you want a test drive get a hold of Chris Amemiya at Tula's Club on Sunday nights. Tell him I sent you.!

Funny you should mention Chris Amemiya. I was just talking with my brother who is up in Seattle and he was telling me about him yesterday. The name Amemiya is pretty well know in Honolulu. Which by the way is my home town. I think Chris was a Millikan grad from 76. Its a small world, and I would love to give him a test drive on either of the two Williams horns I have, or will have. As a relatively new player I have a limited amount of ability, but enough to know that these horns are very special, and very very good.

Seattle is an hour plus from my home but I think I just may do that John. Besides, I hear he is a talented musician. And I will indeed tell him you sent me.

ttf_octavposaune · Post by **ttf_octavposaune** » Mon May 24, 2010 8:39 pm

Hello Dan,

I am 95 percent certain that the horn you posted pictures of does not have TIS.

I can see the tuning slide bead rings and there is no mechanism on the slide to telescope the oversleeves,

Not trying to be too nickpicky, but you still got a Williams!

Benn

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Mon May 24, 2010 8:58 pm

Quote from: octavposaune on May 24, 2010, 08:39PMHello Dan,

I am 95 percent certain that the horn you posted pictures of does not have TIS.

I can see the tuning slide bead rings and there is no mechanism on the slide to telescope the oversleeves,

Not trying to be too nickpicky, but you still got a Williams!

Benn

Did I say it had tis? I didn't realize I had but your right it is a tuning in the bell.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue May 25, 2010 4:22 am

Quote from: Dan Martin on May 24, 2010, 08:58PMDid I say it had tis?
Yea, you did say it...

Quote from: Dan Martin on May 24, 2010, 12:46PMFriction fit, tuning in slide. !! Looks like its in fabulous shape.

Probably in just a moment of glee and excitement - slip of the tongue by mistake.

Probably just too excited with the find.

T.

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Tue May 25, 2010 5:52 am

Well I do have one of each

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu May 27, 2010 3:25 pm

Quote from: Dan Martin on May 24, 2010, 12:38PMThis is what is comming to me this week!! I don't know for sure what model it is,4, or 6 but I do know its mine and has been shipped. Better pictures will be up after it gets here!
7& 1/2 inch bell. Nickel slide. Made by Williams, no spike.

That is a thing of beauty Dan. I'd be happy to take it for a test spin.

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Thu May 27, 2010 5:07 pm

Yeah Baby!! Its a .522 71/2 inch bell, and I would be honored to let you take it for a test drive. Pictures are comming!

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Thu May 27, 2010 5:10 pm

ttf_Trav1s · Post by **ttf_Trav1s** » Thu May 27, 2010 5:20 pm

Quote from: Dan Martin on May 27, 2010, 05:07PMYeah Baby!! Its a .522 71/2 inch bell, and I would be honored to let you take it for a test drive. Pictures are comming!

[sarcasm]You gave up a 1960 78H for that? What were you thinking?!?!?![/sarcasm]

SO, how does it play??

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Thu May 27, 2010 5:24 pm

Nickel outers?

Quote from: Dan Martin on May 27, 2010, 05:07PMIts a .522 71/2 inch bellOdd combination of bell and bore; I'd have expected an 8" or 8.5" bell with a bore that size.

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Thu May 27, 2010 5:26 pm

So yes, this is a early model 8 as far as I can tell. With the calipers that I bought the numbers come back at .520 but with the collared stocking you cant really get the most accurate measurement. Almost positive its an 8.

The one thing I do notice is that the patent number has been buffed down to barely visible. The outer slide may have been worked on at some point. The tenon on the slide still has some lacquer on it. Bad friction. I'll fix that. If it was worked on they did a fantastic job. At least I think so. Maybe Earl did the work?? It does have nickle silver outer slide. It may be the original tubes, who knows??? Inners have some wear, but zero dents. Slide alignment is GREAT!!! The lacquer on the brass looks like its one of those awesome greenish gold H.N White jobs from the 30's! Just beautiful.

Now for the good part. It sounds and plays very very good. I will wait and let Chris give his impression of it. I can really only compare it to one of my 78h's, and my feeling is it blows it out of the water. Very responsive. Dark down low. Bright up high. Articulations seem very crisp. Oops, I guess I just gave my opinion.

A couple more pictures are to follow. I am one happy boy!

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Thu May 27, 2010 5:31 pm

Quote from: JohnL on May 27, 2010, 05:24PMNickel outers?
Odd combination of bell and bore; I'd have expected an 8" or 8.5" bell with a bore that size.

John, I have measured it 4 times and every time it comes up .520 .519

Small bell, loud, great projection.

Travis, I would trade both of the 78's for this one. I may never play my 1934 78H ever again. Maybe make a good camping and hiking horn out of it. Or put money in the coffers for bone shopping.

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Thu May 27, 2010 5:36 pm

Talking to John Noxon he said this may be a Williams Mouthpiece, anyone know who Zimmerman was? Perhaps Larry Zimmerman??

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Thu May 27, 2010 6:11 pm

After some searching I found my answer. Leo Zimmerman was a soloist with the Souza band. This is a great site to look for information on trombones.

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,39847.0.html

Now the question remains, Did Earl make this piece???

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Thu May 27, 2010 6:51 pm

Heres some pictures of the Lyre that came with it. Very well made. Could Earl have made this also? Better yet, did Earl Williams ever make a horn for Leo Zimmerman?? He died in 1935. About the time this horn was made perhaps.

My question is this. If a man walked in the shop in 1934 an asked Earl to make him a horn custom,to his specifications, and his name was Leo Zimmerman, would Earl have made it for him? Would it have looked like a Wallace because that the kind of parts he had? Would it have said Williams on it and not Wallace and Williams?

Another $250,000 dollar question. If this horn was made for Leo Zimmerman is it possible to find out? John Noxon, do you remember Earl ever telling you or anyone that he made a horn for Zimmerman? If he did and this is it I will crap my pants. Happily.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu May 27, 2010 6:58 pm

PM Slipmo and send him a pic of the mpc - Noah Gladstone - he can identify if it's an Earl Williams MPC.

I sent him a pic of my MPC that came with my Williams # 3 - he said it was a Williams MPC, one of only 2 or 3 he had ever seen.

NICE Dan, absolutely NICE!

T.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu May 27, 2010 7:11 pm

Pics of mine, looks alot like yours..

T.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu May 27, 2010 7:46 pm

Quote from: JohnL on May 27, 2010, 05:24PMOdd combination of bell and bore; I'd have expected an 8" or 8.5" bell with a bore that size.

Something I just thought of, off the top of my head.... about the bell size.....

Earl was making horns during this time (1938ish) in LA near the Olds Factory. My horn (only 11 serial numbers earlier than Dan's) is in the same case. Both of our cases are Olds Cases (like My 1931/32 Olds Military came in).

The Olds cases, couldn't handle a bigger bell than a 7.5 inch bell (at least I don't think it could). So maybe the available cases to Earl had something to do with the bell size during this period.

Kinda makes sense....

Just sayin...

T.

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Thu May 27, 2010 8:07 pm

Didn't Olds make any trombone with a larger bell back then? I would think that a hat maker wouldn't only make hats one size because he only had boxes that were size 7 ???
Earl must have had access to case that were bigger.

ttf_octavposaune · Post by **ttf_octavposaune** » Thu May 27, 2010 10:34 pm

Olds most certainly made cases for their Symphony trombones,

Mr Dempsters got a 9 1/4 Olds Symphony in its original case and I have a 8 1/4 symphony, which I am certain originally had a case(long gone).

Those that I have seen were all french style for the older sym. models,

And of Course Olds was making basses at this time as well,

Benn

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Fri May 28, 2010 4:38 am

Found the Zimmerman Mouthpiece!!

The one on the horn as well as the one on the table at the left.

This piece is VERY good. Small cup, huge bowl longer shank than a Bach. Perfect for this horn. I'll put this up for discussion in Mouthpieces later. With measurements. Still want to know who made it? I still think if this was custom piece as is mentioned in the roadshow article, if this was perhaps a Williams that was owned by Leo Zimmerman. That would be fantastic.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/200302A28.html

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri May 28, 2010 5:03 am

Quote from: octavposaune on May 27, 2010, 10:34PMOlds most certainly made cases for their Symphony trombones,
True, but all the Williams 38ish era horns I have seen, are in the small Olds Cases.

Maybe Olds wouldn't sell him the larger cases to hold bigger bells? Harder cases to get, maybe more expensive?

Hard to tell....

T.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Fri May 28, 2010 1:55 pm

Earl did not do the custom horn thing. He knew what he built was the best around and you took what he built. He would tweak a horn but never alter its design. He used to get PO'd at Milt Bernhart for changing lead pipes at Bert Herricks shop. But that is one of the things that was done in LA. If you wanted it "customized" you went to Bert or in later years Minnick. Milt brought his horn in one day with no lead pipe. Earl was upset that he thought the one Earl made was not good enough. But that was about the only modification I ever saw. He would build a few model 6's with 7.5" bells but that was about it.

I have seen a couple of horns of that vintage that had a name engraved on them. My silver plated Wallace has "R.F. Vasaravic" Engraved on the bell. I have always wondered who he was?

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Fri May 28, 2010 5:49 pm

My Williams (TIS, .520", 9" bell with f attachment) came in a case marked "BULWIN MFG. CO. LOS ANGELES". A quick google comes up a mention in Presto from June 1932 indicating the they were moving to larger quarters in Los Angeles, along with a bunch of stuff related to them making cases for Leo Fender; by that time, they had moved south to Orange County (Costa Mesa).

My case is French-style with a full-length flap over the slide, similar to contemporary King cases, but not quite the same. I've seen other Williams horns in similar cases.

So - did Olds make cases at all back then? Or did they buy them - maybe from the same company that Williams got his from?

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Fri May 28, 2010 6:33 pm

A lot of the Old's cases I have seen are the Bulwin Mfg Comp. I have a 44H in one right now. Most of the cases Earl used in the later years were from King. This seems to be 1948 forward or so? But the obvious connection is him working for Olds on and off for about a 35 year time frame. Drew's bass trumpet is obviously an "Olds" in many ways. A friend of mine has a Williams bass trumpet with an "F" attachment that appears to be kind an Olds too, including the case which is original.

Two of my Wallace cases are "King" looking. The old french style that the 2B used to come in. I would say whoever was cheapest at the moment is where they came from. Logistically I would think it would have been expensive to get cases from H. N. White in Ohio, to LA, in the late 40's to the 70's. Especially early on in the 40's. So maybe Bulwin made cases for King here in LA.

I have seen horns in the King Coffin Case that goes back to the late 40's. The red alligator looking leather, all the way to the black coffins of the 70's. I remember seeing a pile of them when I got my horn and they were all the black King Coffin cases, but they were all green lining. That is the only place I saw green, the King ones had blue lining and some were red. But Earl had green ones. So we are back to where we started who knows!!

Is Bulwin still around?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri May 28, 2010 7:19 pm

Quote from: jnoxon on May 28, 2010, 06:33PMI remember seeing a pile of them when I got my horn and they were all the black King Coffin cases, but they were all green lining. That is the only place I saw green, the King ones had blue lining and some were red. But Earl had green ones. So we are back to where we started who knows!!

A local buddy had a King 3B, and his case was a King Coffin case with green velvet. He sold the 3B (not the case), and he gave me the case - the inside was as green as it gets.

I sold a Holton Revelation, and let the case go with it (it was worse for wear).

So King did use some with green velvet inside too.

T.