TromboneChat

Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 27, 2016, 03:45AMI think you mean Deut 17, not 16? Your description matches chapter 17.


oops - fixed, thanks

QuoteDeuteronomy 18 text

Highlights

 - Help Levites as mandated
 - Some banned things
 - Succession of power

Summary

 - Reminder of the duties of the populace to support the priest class of Levites with gifts

just being pedantic - but Levites were the assistants to the priests.

Quote
 - Banned: sacrifice of one's children, divination, fortune-telling, interpreting omens, sorcery, charming, mediums, necromancy, "one who inquires of the dead". It is underlined that these are the vices of the neighbouring nations that they are to drive out.
 - A new prophet is foretold

Questions and Observations

1) This is all getting quite repetitive. I don't think we've read anything yet in Deuteronomy that wasn't already mentioned in one or the other of the previous three books. So what is the purpose of retaining Deuteronomy in the canon?

I guess it was in the Hebrew cannon because it was an important part of their history, and that's one reason why its in the christian canon.  Another reason would be that it is quoted by Jesus and in the NT.

I also think that a reason that there is so much redundancy in the bible is because its not a collection of isolated facts that can or should be normalised out of their context.  The bible is essentially told in story form and so a lot of the information of pieces of text is held in the context of those texts.

Quote2) What is the difference between a necromancer and "one who inquires of the dead"? They're listed separately, but mean the same thing in English.
I don't know.
Quote3) Moloch was apparently still popular...
4) What is meant by a "charmer"? I'm imagining someone selling objects held to be good luck.

Maybe John could answer those, I don't know.

Quote6) The new prophet is presumably Joshua, Moses's previously designated successor?

Actually, I'm not sure if the Jew's consider that Joshua was the Prophet referred to here.  I think religions generally think it refers to God's ultimate Prophet.  So the Jews see it as a reference to the Messiah. Christians tend to see it as a reference to Jesus (who we also see as the Messiah)  Tim may have other ideas here.  And of course Muslims reckon that it refers to Mohammed.

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 27, 2016, 04:23AMjust being pedantic - but Levites were the assistants to the priests.
So the picture that I have in my head is of a family-driven religious power structure, with Aaron's surviving sons at the centre directing things, with their relations the Levites maintaining it all, and the more distant relations that were outside the Levite group supporting them. "Priest class" seemed like a reasonable shorthand for that concept, but perhaps I should be more careful, though I can't immediately think of a better phrase.

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 27, 2016, 04:23AMI guess it was in the Hebrew cannon because it was an important part of their history, and that's one reason why its in the christian canon.  Another reason would be that it is quoted by Jesus and in the NT.
Sure. But the idea that these five books are a continuous narrative written down by Moses, which has already taken quite a knocking from the jumbliness of Genesis, is taking further knocks with each repeated chapter here. If we accept that someone later was putting the Israelite state history together from a variety of sources, then it becomes very reasonable to expect this sort of repetition.

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 27, 2016, 04:23AMActually, I'm not sure if the Jew's consider that Joshua was the Prophet referred to here.  I think religions generally think it refers to God's ultimate Prophet.  So the Jews see it as a reference to the Messiah. Christians tend to see it as a reference to Jesus (who we also see as the Messiah)  Tim may have other ideas here.  And of course Muslims reckon that it refers to Mohammed.

Funny how what seemed the immediately obvious narrative answer to me it turns out is foundationally opposed to the stances taken by the three religious traditions with an interest in proceedings! Reading back, it could mean anything or anyone, couldn't it? Very vague.

Deuteronomy 19 text

Highlights

 - Cities of refuge.
 - legal witnesses

Summary

 - nominate 3 cities of refuge evenly spaced for some who accidentally kills someone to seek refuge
 - if the kingdom grows larger then allocate 3 more cities
 - this don't probide refuge to deliberate murderers
 - two witnesses are required to convict someone accused of a crime or offence.

Questions and Observations

 1. I know that the topic of refuge cities and witnesses have already been covered , but there is new information here so its not completely redundant.  eg cities of refuge are introduced in Numbers 35, but there is some information given here that us not in Numbers and some in Numbers that is not here.

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 27, 2016, 02:04PM 1. I know that the topic of refuge cities and witnesses have already been covered , but there is new information here so its not completely redundant.  eg cities of refuge are introduced in Numbers 35, but there is some information given here that us not in Numbers and some in Numbers that is not here.

I think this is what I'm getting at - if one man was just putting this stuff down, why would he do all these things twice? Some details present in one, some in the other.

Deuteronomy 20 text

Highlights

 - Warfare laws

Summary

 - Be bold, Israelites. Don't be frightened of a larger force, your religion will protect you as a group. Though quite possibly not you as an individual.
 - Fighting men to be offered exemptions before the fight - new house, new vineyard, new woman, fearfulness.
 - When approaching a city belligerently, first offer peace terms: spared lives in return for indentured servitude.
 - If those terms are rejected, then besiege it.
 - When it is captured, kill all males, and take women, children, livestock, and all other contents as plunder.
 - But specific exception for cities in the promised land - there all must die, in order not to infect the thoughts of the Israelites with their foreign ways.
 - Do not fell food trees when besieging.

Questions and Observations

1) Going amongst the troops to seek out those who might not want to die in order to send them home... This seems likely to me to strike directly at the morale of the troops.
2) Women as things again.
3) This code is frightened of the thoughts of the Israelites being infected with the cultural practices of nearby tribes, but not frightened of the same from further-away tribes. I suppose the nearby practices would be more likely to be embraced as familiar.

Deuteronomy 21 text

Highlights

 - more laws

Summary

 - make atonement for unsolved murders
 - they can marry captive women but not humiliate them
 - don't favour the kids of your favourite wife for inheritance
 - a rebellious son must die
 - a hanged man is cursed

Questions and Observations

 1. unsolved murders: these seem to make the land and people unclean and need a sacrifice to atone for them because there isnt a perpetrator to punish
 2. rebellious sons: pretty rough, but it does have the effect of bringing the importance of keeping the covenant right down to the family level and not just something that can be left to those authorities
 3. "hanged on a tree" seems to refer to the public display of a dead body for shame.  This rule was referred to in the case of Jesus crucifiction.

Deuteronomy 22 text


Highlights

 - more laws

Summary

 - return stray animals to their owner, don't cross dress, don't kill mother birds, build houses with safe roofs don't sow your vineyard with 2 kinds of seeds
 - don't accuse your bride of not being a virgin if you don't like her
 - don't have sex with another man's wife
 - if a man has sex with a betrothed virgin inside the city then they shall both die, cause the virgin could have cired for help if she wanted.
 - if a man has sex with a betrothed virgin in the open country then only the man shall die
 - if a man has sex with an unbetrothed virgin then he shall pay dowry to her father, he may not divorce her.
 - don't have sex with your fathers wife.


Questions and Observations

 1. Moses is getting into more detail with these laws, covering explicit cases of situations that were general principles before.
 2. The context of the laws are different too: Deuteronomy is looking towards a society that lives in towns, and growing crops and herding cattle; Leviticus was written in the context of a nomadic society living in camps in the wilderness.

It was - but as we noted earlier, they had various 'wilderness laws' that seemed to be specifically aimed at settled dwelling, e.g. the reversion of property rights in jubilee years.

Also, the rape stuff here - always struck me as a really counter-intuitively odd way of doing things. I appreciate that this was a society with a different view of things - did they even recognise the concept of rape as we would recognise it? But even to these people - to stone a woman to death because she didn't feel able to scream while being sexually assaulted? That's not a good way to run things. Women as property once again is something of a refrain here.

Deuteronomy 23 text

Highlights

 - List of categories of people ineligible for "the assembly of the Lord"
 - Uncleanness in the camp
 - Some more miscellaneous laws

Summary

 - The following may not "enter the assembly of the Lord":
  - Men with crushed testicles
  - Men with removed penis
  - Children of a forbidden union for 10 generations
  - Ammonites or Moabites for 10 generations
  - Edomites and Egyptians for 3 generations
 - A man's wet dream incurs uncleanness for which he must spend the day outside the camp and wash
 - Pooing should be done at a personal designated spot outside the camp, and buried afterwards
 - It is a duty to harbour an escaped slave
 - "Cult prostitution" is forbidden to Israelites
 - Interest on loans to other Israelites (?) is forbidden. Interest on loans to foreigners is endorsed.
 - Fulfil vows to God promptly
 - Do not harvest another's property - but you can nibble

Questions and Observations

1) If a forbidden union had children, after 10 generations that could be an awfully large number of Israelites. Quite possibly pretty much the whole society.
2) Ditto Ammonites and Moabites. In fact, this one is maybe more likely to cause problems.
3) These specificities would have created a society of castes.
4) I doubt that many voluntarily underwent either of the described genital mutilations. Societies with eunuchs have tended to inflict the procedure on children rather than consenting adults. To bar those so abused seems to be a double iniquity.
5) Legislation about inadvertent sexual emission brings to my attention that I don't think we've seen the Bible say anything about masturbation, a topic that over the ages many Christians and Christian institutions have been extremely clear about their negative views on. This seems an odd 'emission omission', given later Christian views on it. Googling for insight shows that the lack of explicit guidance leads to general circumlocution and arguments from context.
6) The law on escaped slaves I find surprising - it seems inconsistent. Their code provided circumstances whereby a person could legally enter slavery - e.g. for inhabitants of a city that surrendered when threatened. And now it condones the undoing of that by the slave. The two don't seem to mesh. I sense some kind of pragmatic legal fudge.
7) It's not clear how wide the category of interest exemption for loans is. I think it means all Israelites, but I'm not sure.
8) The law on the fruits of someone else seems pleasantly phrased - don't steal, but having a little nibble isn't stealing. Would have been open to abuse though - large family all eating someone else's grapes from a small field every day for a week wouldn't have gone down well.

"I have wondered at times about what the Ten Commandments would have looked like if Moses had run them through the U.S. Congress." A Ronald Reagan quote that I love. 

Does anyone want to take a stab at it?

Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 29, 2016, 04:50AMDeuteronomy 23 text

Questions and Observations

1) If a forbidden union had children, after 10 generations that could be an awfully large number of Israelites. Quite possibly pretty much the whole society.
2) Ditto Ammonites and Moabites. In fact, this one is maybe more likely to cause problems.
3) These specificities would have created a society of castes.

I'd guess they wouldn't have been good marital prospects so would not have had the opportunity to spread their genes that much.

Quote4) I doubt that many voluntarily underwent either of the described genital mutilations. Societies with eunuchs have tended to inflict the procedure on children rather than consenting adults. To bar those so abused seems to be a double iniquity.

My commentary says that the mutilations were probably part of a pagan ritual, so would have been a consenting adult.

Quote5) Legislation about inadvertent sexual emission brings to my attention that I don't think we've seen the Bible say anything about masturbation, a topic that over the ages many Christians and Christian institutions have been extremely clear about their negative views on. This seems an odd 'emission omission', given later Christian views on it. Googling for insight shows that the lack of explicit guidance leads to general circumlocution and arguments from context.

Some Christians make up their own rules and claim that they have official support when there isn't.  I expect others do it too.

I catch myself doing this too, like deciding that the slave rules below applied to slaves of foreigners.

Quote6) The law on escaped slaves I find surprising - it seems inconsistent. Their code provided circumstances whereby a person could legally enter slavery - e.g. for inhabitants of a city that surrendered when threatened. And now it condones the undoing of that by the slave. The two don't seem to mesh. I sense some kind of pragmatic legal fudge.

Be nice to your slaves or else they will run off to another master.

There were a couple of different ways someone could become a slave to an Israelite.  You could sell yourself, ie become and indentured servant for 6 years.  I don't think that this rule covers that.  But have no evidence.  Or where Israel conquered a city, and enslaved the population.  Was this for life or 6 years too?

The rule may have been for slaves of non-Israelites - that's what my commentary says, but I can't see any evidence for it. 

Quote7) It's not clear how wide the category of interest exemption for loans is. I think it means all Israelites, but I'm not sure.
I think so too.

Its interesting that in medieval Europe, the church understood this to apply to loans between christians as it considered itself to have replaced Israel, and because most people in Europe considered themselves christians.  So they didn't loan money commercially, unless there were other considerations.  This was great for the Jews because they had no problems charging interest to Gentiles.  So some Jews went into banking and made huge amounts of money lending money to Gentiles.  Freakonomics at work.

Quote8) The law on the fruits of someone else seems pleasantly phrased - don't steal, but having a little nibble isn't stealing. Would have been open to abuse though - large family all eating someone else's grapes from a small field every day for a week wouldn't have gone down well.

I don't know what would have happened there, but don't expect it to have been appreciated either.

Deuteronomy 24 text


Highlights

 - misc laws

Summary

 - if you divorce a women, you can't marry her again.
 - misc laws
  - public servants get to take a 12 month honeymoon
  - don't take a millstone as a pledge for a loan
  - don't kidnap Israelites as slaves
  - be careful with leprosy
  - don't be impatient collecting loan pledges (possibly the guarantee)
  - treat hired workers fairly
  - don't punish a father or a son for the crimes of the other
  - don't pervert justice against migrants, orphans or widows: remember you were slaves in Egypt
  - leave some harvest for the migrants, orphans or widows to collect: remember you were slaves in Egypt


Questions and Observations

 1. marriage laws were not especially equitable
 2. apart from that the society was supposed to be fair and not exploit the disadvantaged.

Quote from: ddickerson on Mar 29, 2016, 07:38AM"I have wondered at times about what the Ten Commandments would have looked like if Moses had run them through the U.S. Congress." A Ronald Reagan quote that I love. 

Does anyone want to take a stab at it?

Would he have been allowed to support his requests with earthquakes, brimstone plagues and other signs of divine authority?

I think it would have depended on which era of congress was having its approval solicited. If God had a Democrat present his work, none of it would get through today, regardless of the high quality of the commandments. I think Reagan's era of Congress was a more mature thing, working more effectively?

Getting back to the topic (although its fun visualising Moses (a la Charleton Heston) striding into Congress with his booming voice offering them the choice of passing the 10C's as is or going through the 10 plagues routine first.)

Deuteronomy 25 text


Highlights

 - More rules

Summary

 - A guilty person can only receive forty lashes. Ouch.
 - An ox treading grain should be free to eat it and should not be muzzled. After all, it deserves something for the work it's doing.
 - If a man marries a woman and the man dies before they have a baby, the brother of the guy must marry the woman. Their firstborn child will count as the dead brother's child.  If the brother refuses, his brother's wife is supposed to spit in his face and take his sandal.
 - A woman who tries to help her husband in a fight and strikes another man below the belt will have her hand cut off.
 - Be honest. Don't use false weights.
 - Punish the Amalekites for attacking the weak among you in the wilderness. The Amalekites are the perpetual enemies of Israel. Several passages in the Bible speak of annihilating these guys (see Numbers 24:20, 1 Samuel 15, 1 Chronicles 4:42-43).


Questions and Observations

 1. Having to marry your brothers widow was was common in the ancient world and was designed to keep communities together (according to my commentary).  I think it also had the purpose of ensuring that the widow has a son to support her in her old age, which explains why she would have been keen for it. 

By the way, we're going to revisit this concept in Ruth, so don't forget it.

 2. So much for self-defense class.

 3. The Amalekites are the perpetual enemies of Israel. Several passages in the Bible speak of annihilating these guys (see Numbers 24:20, 1 Samuel 15, 1 Chronicles 4:42-43).

Thought that those of us who follow this thread might find this link interesting.

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/people-in-the-bible/50-people-in-the-bible-confirmed-archaeologically/

Yes indeed, thanks John. Notable that none of them are characters that we've yet met - it'll be satisfying when we encounter passages that we can tie in with independent corroboration. From my perspective, a moment when we can consider that we've moved into definably more solid history.

Deuteronomy 26 text

Highlights

 - Celebrating the harvest and giving to the poor

Summary

• [li] Give some of the First Fruits of your harvest back to God[/li][li]they had to recite a brief summary of the story of the history of Israel: Abraham, Egypt, Land[/li][li]this was a joyful celebration of Gods goodness to them[/li][li]when they have given their tithe on the third year to the poor, they shall recite a summary of the covenant between them and God.[/li][li]Moses tells them to be carefull to do the commands, that they have agreed that the Lord is their God and that they will walk in his ways, and that the Lord has declared that they are his treasured possesion and that he will make them above the other nations.[/li]

Questions and Observations

• [li]The Firstfruits celebration was part of the Feast of Weeks we have already read about.  I guess its got a special mention here because its talking about the first time it will be celebrated in the Land that was promised and that they have been looking to for so long.[/li][li]Its interesting that the tithe was more about looking after the poor than enriching the priests. (I'm assuming that the Levites were included in the poor)[/li]

Deuteronomy 27 text
Deuteronomy 28 text

Highlights

• [li]celebration,curses and blessings[/li]

Summary

• [li]Moses tells the people to keep the law,to build an alter with uncut stones on Mt Ebal when they cross over into the land, and to celebrate with burnt offerings and peace offerings[/li][li]Moses tells them to divide into 2 groups, and half stand on Mt Ebal and half on Mt Gerazim, and pronounce a number of curses and blessing on Israel.[/li][li]The curses will take effect if they do the following things:[/li][li]makes a carved or cast image[/li][li]dishonour their father or mother[/li][li]moves their neighbours property boundary maker[/li][li]misleads a blind mane[/li][li]perverts justice due to the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow[/li][li]lies with his fathers wife, an animal, his sister or his mother in law[/li][li]stike down their neighbour in secret[/li][li]takes a bribe to shed innocent bloods[/li][li]does not confirm to the words of this law[/li]

• [li]They would be blessed if the obeyed the voice of the Lord and faithfully obeyed his commandments[/li][li]The blessings were:[/li][li]they would be blessed in the city, the field, fertility, and all the time[/li][li]that their enemies would be defeated[/li][li]they will abound in prosperity[/li][li]But if they disobey they will suffer the following:[/li][li]
  • [li]they would be cursed in the city, the field, fertility, and all the time[/li][li]everything they do will be frustratedsd[/li][li]they will be defeated by their enemies[/li][li]they will be conquered and exiled into captivity[/li]
  • [li]all this will happen as a sign to you that you are doing wrong, you will be scattered among the nations, left few in number and worship other gods [/li]
  
  Questions and Observations
  
  • [li]these bullets aren't consistent.  How do you unindent?[/li]
  [/li]

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 01, 2016, 02:03PMthese bullets aren't consistent.  How do you unindent?

Pressing the list button produces text like this (I've added spaces so that TTF leaves the text as is - there might be a cleverer way to do that, but the way I thought might do that didn't):

[ list ]
[ li ][ /li ]
[ li ][ /li ]
[ /list ]

If you add another "[ list ]" inside an [ li ] [ /li ] tag pair, you get a second order list inside your list item, which is what happened in your post. If you don't terminate that 2nd order list inside that list item with a "[ /list ]", confusion results.

• [li]1st level
  • [li]2nd level
    • [li]3rd level
      • [li]4th level
        • [li]5th level[/li][li]Hmm...
          • [li]It seems like you can carry on doing this for quite some time...
            • [li]But only the 2nd level has a different bullet symbol?[/li]
            [/li]
          [/li]
        [/li][li]Still 4th level[/li]
      [/li][li]Still 3rd level[/li]
    [/li][li]Still 2nd level[/li]
  [/li][li]Still 1st level[/li]

Deuteronomy 29 text

Highlights

• [li]Keep the faith or else[/li]

Summary

• [li]Moses recounts the covenant to the Israelites and their guests
  • [li]Don't give up on the dream[/li][li]Don't forget past victories[/li]
  [/li][li]Else
  • [li]God will turn against them[/li][li]Overthrowing their cities like Sodom and Gomorrah[/li][li]Salting their land[/li]
  [/li]

Questions and Observations

1) Hmm, yes, these bullet lists have their place.
2) We've heard this talk before - do this and this else God will make things truly awful for you. Pretty much a straight repeat, this one.

Deuteronomy 30 text

Highlights

• [li]God will fogive them when they repent[/li][li]the choice they have[/li]

Summary

• [li]when they return to God he will forgive them, regather them into the land and bless them again[/li][li]they have to chose: obey and live or disobey and die[/li][li]Moses urges them to chose life[/li]

Questions and Observations

• [li]God and Moses expects them to fail, and allows for it with the promise of forgiveness when they return to God[/li][li]Moses would make a good salesman: here's the offer, here are the consequences, chose life.[/li]

Deuteronomy 31 text

Highlights

• [li]Moses hands over to Joshua[/li][li]Moses finishes writing down the law and hands it over to the priests[/li]

Summary

• [li]Moses announces his retirement and Joshua as his successor[/li][li]Moses hands the law over to the priests and tells them to read it to the People every 7 years[/li][li]God tells Moses that his time is up[/li][li]God says that he knows Israel will turn agains him so he is to write a song for them to sing as a witness against them[/li][li]Joshua is commissioned[/li][li]Moses gave the law in a book for the Levites to put by the ark so that it would be a witness against the People because he knew that they were rebellios[/li]

Questions and Observations

• [li]Moses is pretty pessimistic about them.[/li][li]This is the first instance of multimedia text, spoken work and song[/li]

You got there before I did! Never mind, let's have two chapter 31s.

Deuteronomy 31 text
Deuteronomy 32 text

Highlights

 - Starting to wrap up
 - A song by Moses
 - Moses ordered to make ready for death

Summary

 - Now finished with the recapitulation
 - We are reminded that Joshua is Moses's designated successor and that Moses did not cross the Jordan
 - Moses writes down the laws, gives them to the priests; they are stored in the Ark of the Covenant
 - They are to be read aloud to the masses every 7 years, at the Feast of Booths
 - Moses and Joshua go together to the Tent of Meeting, to commission Joshua as leader
 - Moses writes a song to teach the Israelites, to keep them keen on their particular religion
 - Moses is ordered to ascent Mount Nebo, in Moab.

Questions and Observations

1) Verse 9: "Then Moses wrote this law" - I presume that this is where the idea that these 5 books are the work of Moses comes from? Is it asserted more definitely than this elsewhere? This asserts that he wrote the precepts of Deuteronomy, but isn't obviously extended over the other books of the Torah.
2) "Jeshurun" (in the hymn) is apparently a poetic term for "Israel".
3) Moses is the latest to ascend a mountain to die. Why is this a thing? Getting closer to a sky god, maybe? I note that the Wikipedia page Yahweh is in its category Sky and Weather Gods, but further detail is a bit lacking. A little snippet.

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 03, 2016, 02:42PMYou got there before I did! Never mind, let's have two chapter 31s.

Deuteronomy 31 text
Deuteronomy 32 text

Highlights

 - Starting to wrap up
 - A song by Moses
 - Moses ordered to make ready for death

Summary

 - Now finished with the recapitulation
 - We are reminded that Joshua is Moses's designated successor and that Moses did not cross the Jordan
 - Moses writes down the laws, gives them to the priests; they are stored in the Ark of the Covenant
 - They are to be read aloud to the masses every 7 years, at the Feast of Booths
 - Moses and Joshua go together to the Tent of Meeting, to commission Joshua as leader
 - Moses writes a song to teach the Israelites, to keep them keen on their particular religion
 - Moses is ordered to ascent Mount Nebo, in Moab.

Questions and Observations

1) Verse 9: "Then Moses wrote this law" - I presume that this is where the idea that these 5 books are the work of Moses comes from? Is it asserted more definitely than this elsewhere? This asserts that he wrote the precepts of Deuteronomy, but isn't obviously extended over the other books of the Torah.

Here's a quick summary of biblical support for Moses "authorship" of the Pentateuch http://www.theopedia.com/mosaic-authorship-of-the-pentateuch

The way I see it, Moses wrote most of it, using his experience, and other sources where required.  Obviously there were a few additions and amendments but mostly it was his.

Quote3) Moses is the latest to ascend a mountain to die. Why is this a thing? Getting closer to a sky god, maybe? I note that the Wikipedia page Yahweh is in its category Sky and Weather Gods, but further detail is a bit lacking. A little snippet.

There's probably that sort of symbolism there.  I'm not sure how well developed the concept of eternal life in heaven was back then, probably not much.  I don't remember any details about it so far.

Deuteronomy 33 text

Highlights

• [li]Moses blesses Israel[/li][li]God protects Israel[/li]

Summary

• [li]Moses blesses Israel before his death[/li][li]He tells them how God came in glory and loved his people and became their king[/li][li]Moses blesses each of the tribes, except for one[/li][li]He tells them how God rides through the skys to protect Israel, so they can live in safety and comfort.[/li]

Questions and Observations

• [li]I'm keen to finish Deuteronomy and move on.  Too many laws.[/li][li]So why did Moses leave Simeon out of his blessings?  Here are some ideas: https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/pet/deuteronomy-33.html  It says that they had been too naughty to get blessed.[/li]

Deuteronomy 34 text

Highlights

• [li]Moses sees the Promised Land and dies[/li][li]Joshua takes over[/li]

Summary

• [li]Moses goes up to the top of Mt Nebo where God shows him the boundaries of all the Land that God had promised.[/li][li]And then Moses died, eyes undimmed and full of vigor[/li][li]Israel mourned Moses for 20 days[/li][li]Joshua took over from Moses[/li][li]there hasn't been a prophet like him since.[/li]

Questions and Observations

• [li]God's always getting Moses to climb mountains.[/li][li]Moses must have had good eyesight to see all the land.[/li][li]The actual Hebrew word that describes Moses at the last moment of his life translates to "moisture." What the text is saying is that Moses's moisture had not abated when he died. Academics disagree about whether this refers to sexual potency or skin wrinkles. Either way, it's a great opportunity to understand how the Hebrew language describes people. Languages all have certain feels, and this is a good one for Hebrew.[/li][li]The comment about there not having been a prophet like Moses since suggests a significant time passed between when that was written and Moses death.[/li][li]Here endeth the book of Deuteronomy and the writings of Moses aka the Pentateuch[/li]

So here's my summary of Deuteronomy.

There is lots of repitition of previous material but that's because its basically an applied history lesson. Moses
- reminds the People what God has done and said,
- and reminds them what happened when people obeyed or disobeyed him
- and told them what would happen in the future if they obey or disobey

Highlights

• I think the highlight quotes for me are:

• [li]6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one."[/li][li]30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live" [/li]

Favorite Command

• [li]No fossil hunting: Deuteronomy 2:19 says, “When you come to the Ammonites, do not harass them or provoke them to war, for I will not give you possession of any land belonging to the Ammonites.”[/li]

Character Analysis

• [li]God
  • [li]God can get pretty angry if people mess up[/li][li]He's jealous for his reputation and the loyalty of his people[/li][li]He's got superpowers[/li][li]He punishes people who disobey him or do things the he thinks is wrong[/li][li]The punishment is often death[/li][li]But he makes laws about taking care of widows and orphans and reminding the Israelites to be kind to strangers[/li][li]insists that people should be fair and judges should be just and not partial or corrupt[/li]
  [/li][li]Moses
  • [li]This time Moses is an orator rather than a man of action.  Ironic isn't it given that he originally told God that he couldn't speak in public[/li][li]He doesn't get to enter into the Promised Land because he disobeyed God.  That sucks a bit, especially when you see how sinfull the people that do get to go in are, but I can see the reason from the big picture point of view.[/li][li]Moses is the greatest prophet in Israel (at least in the OT)[/li]
  [/li][li]Israel
  • [li]They're pretty passive in Deuteronomy[/li][li]We read their history, which is mainly about what God did for them[/li][li]We're told that everything they've got and the fact that they're a nation is due to God choosing them[/li][li]We're told how they were afraid because they didn't trust God[/li][li]We're told of their sins and how they had to walk in the wilderness for 40 years[/li][li]We're told that they will sin again and be punished, and that God will forgive them when they repent[/li]
  [/li]

[/list]

I'll start on Joshua now, but feel free to still comment on Deuteronomy

Joshua 1 text

Highlights

• [li]God commissions Joshua[/li][li]The People accept his leadership[/li]

Summary

• [li]God tells Joshua that Moses has died and that he is to lead the people over the Jordan to take possesion of the land that he promised Moses[/li][li]God promises Joshua that no-one will be able to stand against him[/li][li]God says that he is to be strong and courageous and that he has to follow the law that Moses gave them[/li][li]And to be strong and courageous and not to be frightened[/li][li]Jopshua takes command and tells the People to get ready to cross the Jordan in 3 days[/li][li]He reminds the tribes with land on the east of the Jordan of their obligation to help the rest of the tribes[/li][li]And everyone said they would obey Joshua and told him to be strong and courageous[/li]

Questions and Observations

• [li]So do you reckon that Joshua had a problem with being strong and courageous?[/li]

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 05, 2016, 05:18PMI'll start on Joshua now, but feel free to still comment on Deuteronomy

Sorry for being slow again - this is a busy time for me! I do want to contribute my usual story summary for Deuteronomy when I get a moment.

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:46AMSorry for being slow again - this is a busy time for me! I do want to contribute my usual story summary for Deuteronomy when I get a moment.
I'll look forward to it, but in the meantime, I'll press on.

As an intro, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers:
Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 07, 2016, 07:28AMQuote from: MoominDave on Feb 10, 2016, 07:38AMQuote from: MoominDave on Jan 10, 2016, 01:03PMQuote from: MoominDave on Dec 05, 2015, 05:14AMHere we are - the story so far, Book of Genesis:

We start with big picture stuff.

Creation
 - Days of creation, the world and everything in it, Adam and Eve.
 - Tempting of Eve by the serpent; Eve and Adam eat the forbidden fruit.
 - The Fall; A&E expelled from the garden.
The first attempt at a human world
 - Cain murders Abel.
 - Humans spread. Some of them are bad people.
 - Many generations pass.
The flood
 - God becomes weary of human misbehaviour.
 - Noah told to build boat, gather family and animals.
 - Earth is flooded, everything else dies. [A point that we missed at the time occurs to me - if this is true, why do we have trees now? Did Noah take seeds as well?]
The second attempt at a human world
 - Many generations pass; listed lifespans decrease so rapidly that Noah's son Shem outlives all of them.
 - Language creation comes from the Tower of Babel story; Hebrew is specified as the earlier original language.

Now the narrative focusses in on more detail, dealing with the (mis)adventures of Abraham and his family.

Abraham
 - Abram starts out from Ur (modern-day Iraq), travelling extensively with family. He takes in Haran (modern-day Turkey), Canaan (modern-day Israel), the Negeb (desert region in the South of modern-day Israel) Egypt, where Abram and Sarai are evidently politically highly placed, Canaan again. He dwells by the Oaks of Mamre, and is buried in the Cave of Machpelah.
 - God promises Abram and Sarai lots of descendants, renames them Abraham and Sarah, demands circumcision. Isaac shows up late in life, a half-brother for Ishmael, who is banished along his mother Hagar, but also has lots of descendants.
 - Lot escapes Sodom, which Abraham pleads for.
 - Abraham gets out of sacrificing Isaac.
Isaac
 - Abraham's servant brings back Rebekah, a cousin-wife for Isaac.
 - They have twins, Esau and Jacob.
Jacob
 - Jacob subverts Esau's inheritance, and is banished. But Rebekah favours Jacob, and Isaac goes along with it.
 - Jacob is ostensibly sent away to find a cousin-wife. He ends up serving Laban for many years for this, but comes away with two wives (Leah and Rachel) and two concubines (Bilhah and Zilpah), eventually having various sons with all of them.
 - Jacob returns, fearful of Esau's reception. But Esau welcomes him.
 - He is renamed 'Israel'.
 - Jacob's sons create local trouble and he has to move.
Joseph
 - Joseph, Rachel's oldest son, is favoured by Jacob. His brothers resent this and sell him into slavery.
 - Sold to Egypt, he works for highly placed Potiphar, but his wife conspires to jail him.
 - He rises from jail through skill in interpreting dreams prophetically, becoming one of the foremost administrators of the land.
 - Having prepared for famine, Egypt fares well under his stewardship. His family, unknowingly, come to ask him for help.
 - After several turns, he then welcomes them to Egypt, where they take up residence. All live happily ever after...

Or do they...?

And then, Exodus:

Moses rises
 - Three generations have passed. The Israelites are now resented in Egypt and treated as a servant/slave class.
 - Pharaoh orders Israelite children killed. The baby Moses is placed on the Nile in a basket to escape this fate, and is rescued by Pharaoh's daughter.
 - Moses has a divine commission to extract the Israelites from Egypt.
 - A battle of wills is played, with plagues punishing Pharaoh.
 - The final plague is the death of the Egyptian firstborn, and is the explanation given for the Jewish festival of PAssover.
 - Eventually Moses gets his way; the Israelites all leave Egypt. Pharaoh rethinks, chasing them, but his troops are killed by the returning waters of the Red Sea.
The Wandering in the Desert, part 1
 - The Israelites begin their 40 years en route to their new home, moving between various places.
 - Moses is their acknowledged leader, but he faces a goodly portion of dissent.
 - When hungry, they are supplied with manna by God.
 - Joshua becomes a powerful figure in Israelite society, leading armed forces against the Amalekites.
 - Moses lays out secular laws, with help from Jethro, his father-in-law.
Mount Sinai
 - The Israelites reach the mountain.
 - Here Moses finds much to communicate with God about.
 - Divine covenants are regiven, and phrased more bloodily.
 - Sacred laws are given, and engraved on stone tablets.
 - God specifies to Moses over several days on the mountain how his portable temple ("tabernacle") is to be built by the Israelites.
 - While Moses is absent, Aaron mounts a coup, replacing God with a golden calf object.
 - When Moses returns, bloody reprisals are mounted to bring the Israelites back into line. The stone tablets are broken.
 - The command is given for the Israelites to prepare to move on from Mount Sinai.
 - The stone tablets are regiven.
 - The Israelites pull together to construct the tabernacle.

While Genesis and Exodus were largely a narration of historical events in sequence, Leviticus is different - essentially a legal code for this religious society, written down as if given to the Israelites as they sojourned at Mount Sinai. It is noteworthy that it seems agreed that this book was subject to modification over a long period - particularly so for those that are given to proclaiming this book as eternal and unchanging.

Miscellaneous laws
 - Laws about offerings to cover various categories of usage
 - Aaron and sons to be the priestly power, with their actions specified
 - Aaron's sons punished by death for deviating
 - Laws about cleanliness, using a concept rather akin to the Islamic haraam and halal
 - Designation of Yom Kippur as an annual festival to atone for the deeds of Aaron's sons
 - Laws about sacrifice
 - Laws about sex and relationships
 - Prescriptions for regular usage, and censure for those that don't follow
 - Laws for priests (stricter)
 - Laws about eligible animals for offerings
 - Specification of religious festivals
 - Laws about conflict
 - Laws about farming
 - Divine retribution for disobedience
 - Laws about vows

Numbers completes the task of Leviticus, and then narrates the remainder of the time of wandering

Final preparations for leaving Mt Sinai
 - Census, an exercise repeated much later in the chapter
 - Layout and cleanliness of the camp as they move
 - Levites as a priestly class with responsibilities, including the Tabernacle. Aaron's family to head.
 - Specification of the "Nazirite" vow - a monkish type of thing
 - Various laws, spread throughout the book - sacrifices, garments, cleanliness, inheritance, offerings, vows
The Wandering in the Desert, part 2
 - The people are restless; God punishes them bloodily, a pattern oft-repeated in this book
 - Miriam and Aaron mount an attempted coup but fail
 - Spies are sent to Canaan; they report back a land of immense strength, and the Israelites lose faith in the idea; God condemns them to more wandering for this; some Israelites attack but are repelled
 - Korah the Levite rebels against Moses; he and followers are killed
 - Moses 'demonstrates' God's power by having staffs of wood bud leaves; this settles the Israelites down
...40 years pass in between chapters...
 - Miriam and Aaron die
 - Conflicts arise between the Israelites and their new neighbours, which don't go well for the Israelites at first; Edom refuses them entry; Sihon refuses them entry and attacks them; Bashan does the same, but is defeated.
 - But the tide turns; Balak's Moabites decide not to fight them after Balaam and his donkey are flattering about the Israelites
 - The Midianite religion draws in lots of Israelites; it is suppressed with lots of killing and a divine command to kill more in a bit, which is honoured with graphic violence
 - Joshua is appointed successor to Moses when the time comes
 - Reuben and Gad settle in Gilead temporarily, after a spot of debate and violence
 - They are now across the river from their intended destination
Anticipation of The Promised Land
 - Layout and division of the land

Deuteronomy completes the Torah/Pentateuch. It is essentially a summary document, laying out Moses's career and future vision for his people.

Moses orates
 - Wandering in the desert resulted in them refusing the challenge to invade at the first attempt
 - Israelites built up their fighting prowess with smaller-scale military actions
 - Laws regiven - idols, commandments, obedience to God, take care of poor, festivals, sacrifices, support Levites, cities of refuge, how to wage war, sex rules, uncleanness, general misc stuff
 - Geeing up the troops - we're going to invade and God will see us good
 - The stick - if you disobey, God will have it in for you
 - Joshua to succeed Moses
Moses dies
 - He ascends Mount Nebo to die, looking over the Jordan

Joshua 2 text

Highlights

• [li]The Israelite's discover that the Canaanites are really scared of them and are panicking[/li]

Summary

• [li]Joshua sends 2 men to spy out Jericho. The stay at the house of Rahab the prostitute[/li][li]The King of Jericho hears that they are there so sends his squad to get them[/li][li]Rahab hides the spies and tells the kings men that they have gone[/li][li]Rahah tells the spies that she knows that God has given the land to Israel and how the hearts of the Canaanites "have melted".[/li][li]She asks for protection for her and her fathers family.  They agree and tell her what to do so that they will not be harmed.[/li][li]The spies escape and return to Joshua.  They tell him that the Lord has given the land into thier hands and that the inhabitants are scared of them.[/li]

Questions and Observations

• [li]God didn't mind using deception, sneakiness and visiting prostitutes.  I don't think they are supposed to be normal practice for christians.[/li][li]Spies staying at a prostitutes house! I don't think that they were there for sex, but its pretty suss.[/li][li]Rahab becomes an Israelite and one of King David's ancestors.[/li]

Let's summarise the summary of summaries now, it's getting a bit large to hold in mind...

Genesis

• [li]Big picture stuff
  • [li]Creation; Adam & Eve[/li][li]Humans, take 1; Cain & Abel, Noah[/li][li]The Flood; Wash everything away, start again[/li][li]Humans, take 2[/li]
  [/li][li]Abraham; extensive travels, original covenant, Lot, not sacrificing Isaac[/li][li]Jacob; conflict with twin Esau, banishment, wives, 12 sons[/li][li]Joseph; betrayal to Egypt, rise, saving of family, supposed origins of 12 tribes[/li]

Exodus

• [li]New scene, three generations on - Israelites now of low status in Egypt[/li][li]Moses grows up, fights battle of wills with Pharoah over plagues, leads Israelites to depart[/li][li]Wandering, take 1; through the desert to Mt. Sinai, where they make a long camp and...[/li]

Leviticus

• [li]...many laws are given[/li]

Numbers

• [li]Wandering, take 2; they reach their destination, but are too weak to attempt the task, and so...[/li][li]Wandering, take 3; more pootling around, building up military prowess over the years in the preparation for invasion; new leaders emerge, and they finish on the brink of their destination again[/li]

Deuteronomy

• [li]Moses orates; recap of terms and conditions, forward planning[/li][li]Moses dies[/li]

I've been looking forward to Joshua. The story up to Moses as recounted in the first five books is more well known than what follows (at least to me). From here there is more unknown territory.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 05, 2016, 05:19PMSo do you reckon that Joshua had a problem with being strong and courageous?

Poor chap, he'll get a complex.

Mind you, after Moses, anyone is going to look a bit weak.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 06, 2016, 02:11PMThe Israelite's discover that the Canaanites are really scared of them and are panicking

Things have changed, eh? 40 years of military training evidently served their fighting capacity and reputation well.

Joshua 3 text

Highlights

 - The moment arrives - the Israelites cross the Jordan

Summary

 - Israelites camp by the Jordan
 - Priests carry the Ark of the Covenant into the river, which obligingly parts for them, and the company crosses on the dry river bed

Questions and Observations

1) We've seen this manoeuvre before...

And with that, the number of chapters to go drops into triple figures...

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:58PMLet's summarise the summary of summaries now, it's getting a bit large to hold in mind...

I like your super summary, its good to have it all laid out in one concise chunk.

One thing that also stands out for me is how the story revolves around a place that God wants his people to live in.

  - God creates the Garden for Adam and Eve to live in
  - Adam and Eve sin and get evicted from the Garden
  - the earth is corrupted
  - God cleans the earth by the flood
  - God tells Abraham to leave the land where he lives and to move to a land that he will give them
  - but they will have to live in exile as slaves before they get it
  - Egypt ...
  - Moses leads Israel out of Egypt with the intention of leading them into the land that God had promised them.
  - Israel don't trust that God will really give them the land (there are scary giants there) so God makes them wander in the land until that generation dies out
  - they get to the border of the land again and Moses gives them his pep talk before they go into the land that was promised

And now the next group of books (up to 2 Chronicles) tell the story of Israel in the land.

And I definitely like that we only have 999 more chapters to go.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 06, 2016, 04:09PM  - they get to the border of the land again and Moses gives them his pep talk before they go into the land that was promised

And now the next group of books (up to 2 Chronicles) tell the story of Israel in the land.

And I definitely like that we only have 999 more chapters to go.


And again we'll see a story told twice, this time a longer version.  Joshua is the story of a brutal conquest of the promised land.  Judges retells the same story only with fewer battles, more alliances and cooperation with the local people. 

Quote from: timothy42b on Apr 06, 2016, 06:11PMAnd again we'll see a story told twice, this time a longer version.  Joshua is the story of a brutal conquest of the promised land.  Judges retells the same story only with fewer battles, more alliances and cooperation with the local people. 

I understand that there are some historical issues between the Joshua and Judges which should be interesting to discuss.

see for example http://www.crivoice.org/conquest.html

And don't forget the theological issues too.

Hope you'll be willing to provide some insight on your understanding.

I'll drop in here the comments that are available on Wikipedia about the composition of Joshua.

"The Book of Joshua is anonymous. The Babylonian Talmud, written in the 3rd to 5th centuries CE, was the first attempt to attach authors to the holy books: each book, according to the authors of the Talmud, was written by a prophet, and each prophet was an eyewitness of the events described, and Joshua himself wrote "the book that bears his name". This idea was rejected as untenable by John Calvin (1509–1564), and by the time of Thomas Hobbes (1588–1679) it was recognised that the book must have been written much later than the period it depicted.[14]

There is now general agreement that Joshua was composed as part of a larger work, the Deuteronomistic history, stretching from Deuteronomy to Kings.[15] In 1943 the German biblical scholar Martin Noth suggested that this history was composed by a single author/editor, living in the time of the Exile (6th century BCE).[16] A major modification to Noth's theory was made in 1973 by the American scholar Frank M. Cross, to the effect that two editions of the history could be distinguished, the first and more important from the court of King Josiah in the late 7th century, and the second Noth's 6th century Exilic history.[17] Later scholars have detected more authors or editors than either Noth or Cross allowed for.[18]

The prevailing scholarly view is that Joshua is not a factual account of historical events.[19] The apparent setting of Joshua is the 13th century BCE;[19] this was a time of widespread city-destruction, but with a few exceptions (Hazor, Lachish) the destroyed cities are not the ones the Bible associates with Joshua, and the ones it does associate with him show little or no sign of even being occupied at the time.[20]

Given its lack of historicity, Carolyn Pressler, in a recent commentary for the Westminster Bible Companion series, suggests that readers of Joshua should give priority to its theological message ("what passages teach about God") and be aware of what these would have meant to audiences in the 7th and 6th centuries BCE.[21] Richard Nelson explains: The needs of the centralised monarchy favoured a single story of origins combining old traditions of an exodus from Egypt, belief in a national god as "divine warrior," and explanations for ruined cities, social stratification and ethnic groups, and contemporary tribes."

It is interesting to me to learn that Deuteronomy is regarded by neutral scholarly opinion as having been written of a piece with what follows it rather than what precedes it, as the usual grouping suggests us to. I can see that - Numbers essentially concludes the Moses story, and then Deuteronomy is almost all recap, which makes more sense as an introduction to the history of Joshua onwards.

Joshua 4 text

Highlights

• [li]The People cross over the Jordan into The Land[/li]

Summary

• [li]The Lord tells Joshua to take 12 stones from the Jordan where the priests were standing to build a memorial on the other side[/li][li]Joshua also builds a memorial with 12 stones in the river where they stood.[/li][li]Everyone crossed the river in haste, including the 40,000 warriors[/li][li]The priests crossed the river and the water started to flow again[/li][li]The People set up the memorial stones at Gilgal[/li]

Questions and Observations

• [li]40,000 warriors is a lot less than the numbers we read about in the wilderness, Numbers 1 and 26.  My commentary makes a note that the word translated "thousand" "probably" means a troop of 5 to 14 men. [/li][li]The priests stood in the middle of the river while the people crossed over, this was probably the most dangerous spot to be.  Brave aren't they.  I guess Joshua was there too, so he was being brave too.[/li]

Joshua 5 text

Highlights

• [li]Preparation for War[/li]

Summary

• [li]The Amorite kings panic when they hear that the People have crossed the Jordan[/li][li]None of the People who were born in the Wilderness had been circumcised, so they are all done now.  Ouch![/li][li]They keep their first Passover in the Land at Gilgal.[/li][li]The next day they eat produce from the land, and then the next day the manna delivery stops.[/li][li]Joshua meets the Commanda of the Army of the Lord and worships him.[/li]

.
[/list]

Questions and Observations

• [li]Note the similarities between Moses and Joshua: struck fear into hearts of enemies, circumcising the people, celebrated passover[/li][li]Ok guys before we head off to conquer those nasty giants were goind to have a little team building exercise.  That would have gone down well.  But as well as portraying the unity of the people, it shows their dedication the Lord, the mission and would bind them together.[/li][li]Being circumcised would also have made them eligible to celebrate the passover[/li][li]The Commander of the Lords Army is interesting:  was he God or not?  God is sometimes calledthe Lord of Hosts(Armies) which sounds similar, and angels normally reject worship and this guy didn't. so its possible that the "angel" was The Lord.  I'm not sure.[/li][li]The Commander is not for or against the People in the sense that the question is the wrong way around:  it is always, are people on God's side or not./li]
  [/li]

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 09, 2016, 03:16PM

• [li]None of the People who were born in the Wilderness had been circumcised, so they are all done now.  Ouch![/li]

And you'll need a flint knife. Double ouch.

https://www.youtube.com/v/o5VIVRglMT0

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 07, 2016, 02:20PMJoshua 4 text

The Lord tells Joshua to take 12 stones from the Jordan where the priests were standing to build a memorial on the other side
Joshua also builds a memorial with 12 stones in the river where they stood.
I wonder if there are still 12 stones out there in position associated with this tradition. Googling doesn't turn up anything immediately very illuminating. It does turn up some collected commentaries, one of which asserts that the stones were not in the river, but on the edge of the river, and further points out that Joshua 3:15 tells us that the river was in spate, wider than it normally was, due to the season, moving the edge out from normal.

Incidentally, how deep and powerful is the flow of the Jordan here?

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 07, 2016, 02:20PMThe People set up the memorial stones at Gilgal

It appears to be unclear where this was. I note that some scholars derive the etymology of the name "Gilgal" as "Circle of standing stones" - which potentially raises questions like:
 - Was it named after the same stones being referenced here?
 - Did the name already exist during these events? In which case, presumably not named after these stones - but interesting that more stones would be arranged where a well-known stone arrangement already existed.
 - Given that the author is to the best of current knowledge writing about events some 700 years past, are they perhaps taking a known artificial (or geological?) stone formation and supplying it with a holy motive that fits their narrative out of their own imagination?

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 07, 2016, 02:20PM40,000 warriors is a lot less than the numbers we read about in the wilderness, Numbers 1 and 26.  My commentary makes a note that the word translated "thousand" "probably" means a troop of 5 to 14 men.
The commentary's note seems broadly consistent with what we talked about earlier - "thousand" being a mistranslation of "family group". But yes, there is an inconsistency here of population size of an order of magnitude. All I would do is shrug my shoulders and say that we are dealing with very old texts of uncertain provenance and transmission, so total accuracy would be a major surprise, but I appreciate that that isn't intuitively appealing to those that believe.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 07, 2016, 02:20PMThe priests stood in the middle of the river while the people crossed over, this was probably the most dangerous spot to be.  Brave aren't they.  I guess Joshua was there too, so he was being brave too.

Surely not dangerous - their God was holding the waters back! On the face of the story, they've performed a decades-long odyssey that was ultimately a demonstration of trust, and now is the start of the moment of fulfillment. If there's any time for them to feel confident, it's now - especially as they see the walls of water rear up unphysically - now that would be the kind of thing to inspire faith if one saw it.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 09, 2016, 03:16PMJoshua 5 text

None of the People who were born in the Wilderness had been circumcised, so they are all done now.  Ouch!
Ouchy ouch indeed. This really is some peculiar stuff to eyes that haven't been brought up to believe that circumcision is normal. Cutting off the foreskin? This seemed clearly 'What on Earth' behaviour when I first learned of it as a child.

Also it seems peculiar that they abandoned the practice in the desert. For 1) Hasn't it been repeatedly underlined how culturally/religiously important it was to them? For 2) One argument I've heard people make about how it arose was that the foreskin isn't a good combo with sandy environments (which frankly I thought sounded nonsense, but I shan't draw pictures) - so why stop it when in the sandy place? [Admittedly more rocky than sandy in some/much of it, but still...]

And then having got away from the practice, to return to it, forcing almost every adult to do it... I'd be out of there post haste myself.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 09, 2016, 03:16PMThe next day they eat produce from the land, and then the next day the manna delivery stops.

Manna had rather dropped out of my mind of late, but of course the promise was 40 years of it. I speculatively wonder if we might with secular eyes on read "manna" as "foraging/living off the land", as so many armies have done over the centuries?

Joshua 6 text

Highlights

 - Israelites take the city of Jericho

Summary

 - Israelites lay siege to Jericho.
 - They march around the city accompanied by ram's horns once a day for six days.
 - On the seventh day a long blast on the ram's horns cued them to all shout together. This caused the city walls to collapse.
 - Looting silver, gold, bronze, iron is given holy sanction, but not objects of other religions.
 - All in the city are murdered including animals, except Rahab and her family, who are extracted in advance by those who contacted her before.

Questions and Observations

1) First use of acoustic weapons...
2) They are very fond of doing things in 7s. Unusual number to have settled on - larger than the quantity of 5 that is the limit of our intuitive sense of number (try it - collect together objects of random number and look at them, deducing how many there are - up to 5, one just clicks and says "that's X", more than 5 one slows significantly, dividing into quantities 5 or fewer), and also a prime number, so doesn't divide up nicely.
3) Jericho is still a modern city - and had attracted habitation for thousands of years before the setting of the Joshua story - in fact, the first known inhabitants, some 12,000 years ago, were about 3 times more distant from the era of the Joshua story than we are today. There are apparently many springs round about, and the vegetation is lush by Middle Eastern standards - it's evidently always been a desirable location.
4) The story seems to order the extraction of Rahab and her family after the collapse of the wall - but Joshua 2:15 tells us that her house was in the wall, so presumably things couldn't have been that way round.
5) In a damaging blow to the reliability of the narrative, we learn from the above link that Jericho was not rebuilt between destruction by the Egyptians over a century before the setting of Joshua and the passing of 500 years after that destruction. Maybe there is some folk memory of what the Egyptians did to the apparently substantial Canaanite walls in this narrative?

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 10, 2016, 02:42AMI wonder if there are still 12 stones out there in position associated with this tradition. Googling doesn't turn up anything immediately very illuminating. It does turn up some collected commentaries, one of which asserts that the stones were not in the river, but on the edge of the river, and further points out that Joshua 3:15 tells us that the river was in spate, wider than it normally was, due to the season, moving the edge out from normal.

Incidentally, how deep and powerful is the flow of the Jordan here?

I'd heard that this happened at the time of the year when the river was highest, But I've got no idea what the flow rate is or whether it is the same as it used to be.

And I'd never heard the word "spate" used for a raised river, so looked it up:

Quotespate
speɪt/Submit
noun
1.
a large number of similar things coming in quick succession.
"a spate of attacks on holidaymakers"
synonyms:   series, succession, run, cluster, string, outbreak, rash, epidemic, explosion, plague, wave, flurry, rush, flood, deluge, torrent, outpouring
"a spate of burglaries"
2.
BRITISH
a sudden flood in a river.

That explains it, the Brits use spate to mean flood.  Interesting.  That can be my new word for the day.  I doubt that I'm going to get an opportunity to try it out though.

QuoteIt appears to be unclear where this was. I note that some scholars derive the etymology of the name "Gilgal" as "Circle of standing stones" - which potentially raises questions like:
 - Was it named after the same stones being referenced here?
 - Did the name already exist during these events? In which case, presumably not named after these stones - but interesting that more stones would be arranged where a well-known stone arrangement already existed.
 - Given that the author is to the best of current knowledge writing about events some 700 years past, are they perhaps taking a known artificial (or geological?) stone formation and supplying it with a holy motive that fits their narrative out of their own imagination?

I don't know about the naming, or whether it influenced the location of the memorial or the other way around.

QuoteThe commentary's note seems broadly consistent with what we talked about earlier - "thousand" being a mistranslation of "family group". But yes, there is an inconsistency here of population size of an order of magnitude. All I would do is shrug my shoulders and say that we are dealing with very old texts of uncertain provenance and transmission, so total accuracy would be a major surprise, but I appreciate that that isn't intuitively appealing to those that believe.

No.  Not the way I would have done it at all.  But that's what we have to work with.

QuoteSurely not dangerous - their God was holding the waters back! On the face of the story, they've performed a decades-long odyssey that was ultimately a demonstration of trust, and now is the start of the moment of fulfillment. If there's any time for them to feel confident, it's now - especially as they see the walls of water rear up unphysically - now that would be the kind of thing to inspire faith if one saw it.

You're getting better at picking up the theological implications than I am!  I was thinking more in terms of them being sitting targets for Amorite arrows, or even an army of amonites sneaking up on them through the mud.

QuoteAlso it seems peculiar that they abandoned the practice in the desert. For 1) Hasn't it been repeatedly underlined how culturally/religiously important it was to them? For 2) One argument I've heard people make about how it arose was that the foreskin isn't a good combo with sandy environments (which frankly I thought sounded nonsense, but I shan't draw pictures) - so why stop it when in the sandy place? [Admittedly more rocky than sandy in some/much of it, but still...]

And then having got away from the practice, to return to it, forcing almost every adult to do it... I'd be out of there post haste myself.

I was surprised when I read that they hadn't circumcised the boys in the wilderness, but in hindsight its not surprising:
- circumcision was a sign that the Israelites were in a covenant relationship with Israel and was also associated with the promise of the land to Abraham and his descendants (Gen 17)
- in Numbers 14 The People rebelled against God effectively breaking the covenant.  God said that that generation would not inherit the Land.
- So that generation was not in covenant relatioinship with God so they didn't circumcise their sons.
- So the Circumcision here (and the previous recounting of the Law in Deuteronomy) symbolised that the Covenant was being reinstated with that generation. Celebrating the passover probably had that significance too.

QuoteManna had rather dropped out of my mind of late, but of course the promise was 40 years of it. I speculatively wonder if we might with secular eyes on read "manna" as "foraging/living off the land", as so many armies have done over the centuries?

But the food that they would have eaten when the manna stopped would have been forage wouldn't it?  So I can't see the point of saying that they were going to replace manna with foraged food when they were the same thing, whether it happened literally or symbolically.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 10, 2016, 05:17PMI'd heard that this happened at the time of the year when the river was highest, But I've got no idea what the flow rate is or whether it is the same as it used to be.
I found the info that the flow is now less than it formerly was, due to agricultural uses, but not info about the general flow rate. There was also the info that there were quite a few fords on the river - I was just wondering what the general fordability would have been like.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 10, 2016, 05:17PMAnd I'd never heard the word "spate" used for a raised river, so looked it up:

That explains it, the Brits use spate to mean flood.  Interesting.  That can be my new word for the day.  I doubt that I'm going to get an opportunity to try it out though.
Oh, that's new to me too. I had no idea I was being parochial in using the word. Sorry!

I think the 'flooding' sense came first by some way; it instinctively feels like an old word in some way. Seems both senses have some antiquity, though. And happily, it seems to have come from the North of the country - so you could file it in your list of Scottishisms, if you like...

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 10, 2016, 05:17PMI was thinking more in terms of them being sitting targets for Amorite arrows, or even an army of amonites sneaking up on them through the mud.
These images of spiral fossils trooping in armed procession are really quite hard to dismiss... The internet doesn't immediately seem to contain any Israelite / spiral fossil cartoon mash-ups, which surprises me...

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 11, 2016, 03:17AMOh, that's new to me too. I had no idea I was being parochial in using the word. Sorry!

Feel free to introduce new words whenever you like, their a pleasure.

QuoteThese images of spiral fossils trooping in armed procession are really quite hard to dismiss... The internet doesn't immediately seem to contain any Israelite / spiral fossil cartoon mash-ups, which surprises me...

It seems an opportunity too good to miss.

Joshua 7 text

Highlights

 - Israelites defeated at Ai
 - Achan gets the blame

Summary

 - We start with a note that Achan took some forbidden devotional objects from the sack of Jericho
 - Joshua turns his attention to Ai, another city
 - Spies are sent there; they report that it may be taken by a smaller force than the full horde
 - Joshua sends a smaller force, but it is driven off, suffering casualties
 - A scapegoat is sought:
  - The tribes of Israel are paraded one by one, and Judah is selected
  - The clans of Judah are paraded one by one, and Zerah is selected
  - The families of Zerah are paraded one by one, and Zabdi is selected
  - The men of Zabdi are paraded one by one, and Achan is selected
 - Achan confesses to taking forbidden devotional objects from Jericho, hiding them in his tent
 - These are recovered
 - Achan is stoned and burned to death by the Israelites in judgement

Questions and Observations

1) 36 Israelite casualties are presented as a significant loss. In a group of 40,000, it wouldn't seem so. In the ~500 suggested by Martin's commentary, it would.
2) Would be pretty straightforward to finger a culprit in this way - there must have been many who took forbidden objects if they were as valuable as described.
3) Very effective team-building technique, turning the group against a 'traitor'.
4) Ai is thought to be around about here. This is about 10 miles NW of Jericho.
5) The name 'Ai' means 'heap of ruins' in Hebrew. This seems unlikely to have been the name before it was reduced to a heap of ruins - as so often in the Bible, we find ourselves reading what appear to be names, but are actually after-the-fact descriptions.
6) Bearing in mind the injunction in my quote above from the Wikipedia page on the origins of the Book of Joshua from a scholar, which asks us to bear in mind its apparent composition in an age where Judah had political ascendancy, it is perhaps interesting that the scapegoat was a member of the tribe of Judah.