It should be here by Thursday/Friday.
T.
Earl Williams Trombone
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ttf_anonymous
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- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Earl Williams Trombone
My niece took it to my sister, who shipped it today.
It should be here by Thursday/Friday.
T.
It should be here by Thursday/Friday.
T.
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ttf_dj kennedy
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Earl Williams Trombone
latest sale a model 6 takes wings from ground [??????] !!!!!!!!!
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ttf_anonymous
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- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Earl Williams Trombone
Quote from: dj kennedy on Jan 18, 2010, 11:50AMlatest sale a model 6 takes wings from ground [??????] !!!!!!!!!
Dj is da brokerman, with the plan!
T.
Dj is da brokerman, with the plan!
T.
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ttf_anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Earl Williams Trombone
My Willams 4 arrived today. My neice and sister really took care of me, and helped me get this horn. The buyer didn't want to ship, so having relatives in Fla was just GREAT.
(Dan - tuns out, it's not a Wallace And Williams. It's a very early Williams from all indications.)
Info....
On the bell, it reads....
Made By
Williams
Los Angeles
Calif
It is tuning in slide, no slide lock on slide - which points more toward pre-WWII. Maybe a 1938ish??
Remarkably, I can only find 3 places on the bell secion - which are VERY small. I think 2 would be considered minor dings, and 1 a minor dent - not in bad shape at all!!
The slide moves OK, and the tubes look good. One tube shows minimal wear (very minimal). No hang ups - should be great once I clean and re-lube with SOM.
The mouthpiece, only says "2". Might be a Williams, might not be - don't know...
The only thing, is the finish. The finish is poor. Not sure if it's gold plate, or lacquer. Needs to be stipped and re-finished (IMHO). But for the price, I'm in Heaven (greatest find I'll ever get). I plan to play this jewel in the rough, for many years.
Oh, the serial number is.... 687. Just above the serial number, is an "M".
The case, is the same as my 1930 Olds Military. Another pointing toward a late 1930's birth of this horn.
Pics to come, as I get them uploaded to photobucket.
T.
(Dan - tuns out, it's not a Wallace And Williams. It's a very early Williams from all indications.)
Info....
On the bell, it reads....
Made By
Williams
Los Angeles
Calif
It is tuning in slide, no slide lock on slide - which points more toward pre-WWII. Maybe a 1938ish??
Remarkably, I can only find 3 places on the bell secion - which are VERY small. I think 2 would be considered minor dings, and 1 a minor dent - not in bad shape at all!!
The slide moves OK, and the tubes look good. One tube shows minimal wear (very minimal). No hang ups - should be great once I clean and re-lube with SOM.
The mouthpiece, only says "2". Might be a Williams, might not be - don't know...
The only thing, is the finish. The finish is poor. Not sure if it's gold plate, or lacquer. Needs to be stipped and re-finished (IMHO). But for the price, I'm in Heaven (greatest find I'll ever get). I plan to play this jewel in the rough, for many years.
Oh, the serial number is.... 687. Just above the serial number, is an "M".
The case, is the same as my 1930 Olds Military. Another pointing toward a late 1930's birth of this horn.
Pics to come, as I get them uploaded to photobucket.
T.
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ttf_anonymous
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- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Earl Williams Trombone
Pics....
Like I said, it needs a re-finish job.
Bell:
TIS (in)
TIS (out)
Hand Grip
MPC
Spit Valve
Assembled
Thoughts?
Early Williams? 1938ish?
Bore - not sure yet.
T.
Like I said, it needs a re-finish job.
Bell:
TIS (in)
TIS (out)
Hand Grip
MPC
Spit Valve
Assembled
Thoughts?
Early Williams? 1938ish?
Bore - not sure yet.
T.
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ttf_sly fox
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Earl Williams Trombone
"I know nothing, I know nothing"
to quote "Sgt. Schultz" but do you want a vingtage trombone to look like it just came off the shelf, possibly like a counterfiet?, or would you want it to have some interesting "age" marks? I would look at how to stop the deteriation and make sure anything that needs to be done to make it playable is done - repair dents - but I'm not sure I want it looking "factory fresh". At the very least, you lose the original laquer so is it a "Williams" horn or something else???
"I know nothing, I know nothing"
to quote "Sgt. Schultz"
what do the Williams collectors say???
to quote "Sgt. Schultz" but do you want a vingtage trombone to look like it just came off the shelf, possibly like a counterfiet?, or would you want it to have some interesting "age" marks? I would look at how to stop the deteriation and make sure anything that needs to be done to make it playable is done - repair dents - but I'm not sure I want it looking "factory fresh". At the very least, you lose the original laquer so is it a "Williams" horn or something else???
"I know nothing, I know nothing"
to quote "Sgt. Schultz"
what do the Williams collectors say???
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ttf_anonymous
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- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Earl Williams Trombone
Quote from: sly fox on Jan 20, 2010, 09:45AMwhat do the Williams collectors say???
Hoping to get some input from a few of them.
First step, is measure the bore (one of the garage guys at work, has a nice caliper at home - he uses when he works for NASCAR or weekends). Will measure Bore in the morning..
Step 2 - take to get it chem cleaned, by my local brass tech - drop off tomorrow at lunch.
Step 3 - play for a while, until i decide what to do (from opinions I gather here, after the chem clean - if it makes the finish any better, but doubt it'll help much).
Value "like is"? No idea
Value "re-finished"? No idea
Prolly don't matter. I have no intent to sell it.
Playing it in my local Jzz Band Value - priceless.
But I have heard anywhere from $1,000-$8,000 (depending on demand).
If someone offers me $10K - might think about it. Could buy a new duck boat, and a new browning (or Benelli) shot gun for that.
T.
Hoping to get some input from a few of them.
First step, is measure the bore (one of the garage guys at work, has a nice caliper at home - he uses when he works for NASCAR or weekends). Will measure Bore in the morning..
Step 2 - take to get it chem cleaned, by my local brass tech - drop off tomorrow at lunch.
Step 3 - play for a while, until i decide what to do (from opinions I gather here, after the chem clean - if it makes the finish any better, but doubt it'll help much).
Value "like is"? No idea
Value "re-finished"? No idea
Prolly don't matter. I have no intent to sell it.
Playing it in my local Jzz Band Value - priceless.
But I have heard anywhere from $1,000-$8,000 (depending on demand).
If someone offers me $10K - might think about it. Could buy a new duck boat, and a new browning (or Benelli) shot gun for that.
T.
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ttf_anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Earl Williams Trombone
Forgot to mention -
Bell size...
7 & 1/2 inches....
T.
Bell size...
7 & 1/2 inches....
T.
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ttf_jnoxon
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Earl Williams Trombone
Congratulations! Great find! Looks like a very early Williams, with lots of design left overs from the Wallace era. A most excellent horn. Very similar except for the engraving, of the Silver Wallace Williams I have. The tuning in the slide on mine is on the bottom. counterweight, spit valve, etc all the same as my Wallace. So it is a very authentic horn! I would hesitate to call it a model 4 just yet, or at least until you measure the bore. A model 4 would be a .491 bore, a 6 would be a .500, and an 8 would be a .522 bore.
Hard to tell in the photos whether it is Gold plate, or lacquer. But looks to be in fantastic shape. Earl used King cases on about 90% of his horns, and a few Olds cases. This would be from the time frame he and Earl Strickler worked at Olds in Los Angeles Ca. So that may be where some of the Olds cases came from. I am sure he used the engravers from Olds to do that work. Most of his horns from that era were very ornate like this one, or very plain. Does not seem to be much in between on engraving.
I think the mouthpiece might be a Bert Herrick, or a Williams mouthpiece, Earl made a few MP's over the years. Robb Stewart has one with an Ivory rim that Earl did. You might check with Noah Gladstone on the MP he is more famiiar with that than I am. He owns many Herrick MP's and has seen a few Williams MP's and I have only seen one. The 7.5" bell is not necessarily a 4 either, that was pretty average in its day for Earl. His larger bore horns seem to have mostly 8" bells, a few 7.5" bells on .500 bores in that time. It will be interesting to see what the bore size is.
Congratulations are in order, what a great find and a tremendous horn you have there!!!
j
Thanks for calling this morning also.
Hard to tell in the photos whether it is Gold plate, or lacquer. But looks to be in fantastic shape. Earl used King cases on about 90% of his horns, and a few Olds cases. This would be from the time frame he and Earl Strickler worked at Olds in Los Angeles Ca. So that may be where some of the Olds cases came from. I am sure he used the engravers from Olds to do that work. Most of his horns from that era were very ornate like this one, or very plain. Does not seem to be much in between on engraving.
I think the mouthpiece might be a Bert Herrick, or a Williams mouthpiece, Earl made a few MP's over the years. Robb Stewart has one with an Ivory rim that Earl did. You might check with Noah Gladstone on the MP he is more famiiar with that than I am. He owns many Herrick MP's and has seen a few Williams MP's and I have only seen one. The 7.5" bell is not necessarily a 4 either, that was pretty average in its day for Earl. His larger bore horns seem to have mostly 8" bells, a few 7.5" bells on .500 bores in that time. It will be interesting to see what the bore size is.
Congratulations are in order, what a great find and a tremendous horn you have there!!!
j
Thanks for calling this morning also.
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ttf_bonesmarsh
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Earl Williams Trombone
Attention TTF members--
You may be a WINNER if you had the following words, to appear in a single post, in the TTF office pool:
1.duck boat
2.shotgun
3, NASCAR
There would have been a BONUS payment of $1,000,000 in the office pool had the following lucky word appeared as well:
4. Confederate
( the board would have accepted "Rebel" for "confederate" as well )
*****
The winning Canadian pool words today would have been "doughnut" or "brewski".
You may be a WINNER if you had the following words, to appear in a single post, in the TTF office pool:
1.duck boat
2.shotgun
3, NASCAR
There would have been a BONUS payment of $1,000,000 in the office pool had the following lucky word appeared as well:
4. Confederate
( the board would have accepted "Rebel" for "confederate" as well )
*****
The winning Canadian pool words today would have been "doughnut" or "brewski".
-
ttf_JohnL
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Earl Williams Trombone
Pre-WWII, post Williams & Wallace; late 1930's, I'd guess.
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ttf_anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Earl Williams Trombone
Quote from: jnoxon on Jan 20, 2010, 12:36PMCongratulations! Great find! Looks like a very early Williams, with lots of design left overs from the Wallace era. A most excellent horn. Very similar except for the engraving, of the Silver Wallace Williams I have. The tuning in the slide on mine is on the bottom. counterweight, spit valve, etc all the same as my Wallace. So it is a very authentic horn! I would hesitate to call it a model 4 just yet, or at least until you measure the bore. A model 4 would be a .491 bore, a 6 would be a .500, and an 8 would be a .522 bore.
Hard to tell in the photos whether it is Gold plate, or lacquer. But looks to be in fantastic shape. Earl used King cases on about 90% of his horns, and a few Olds cases. This would be from the time frame he and Earl Strickler worked at Olds in Los Angeles Ca. So that may be where some of the Olds cases came from. I am sure he used the engravers from Olds to do that work. Most of his horns from that era were very ornate like this one, or very plain. Does not seem to be much in between on engraving.
I think the mouthpiece might be a Bert Herrick, or a Williams mouthpiece, Earl made a few MP's over the years. Robb Stewart has one with an Ivory rim that Earl did. You might check with Noah Gladstone on the MP he is more famiiar with that than I am. He owns many Herrick MP's and has seen a few Williams MP's and I have only seen one. The 7.5" bell is not necessarily a 4 either, that was pretty average in its day for Earl. His larger bore horns seem to have mostly 8" bells, a few 7.5" bells on .500 bores in that time. It will be interesting to see what the bore size is.
Congratulations are in order, what a great find and a tremendous horn you have there!!!
j
Thanks for calling this morning also.
WOW! Thanks John! That's a ton of info to absorb, and GREAT to know.
OK, so the model number is on hold, till my buddy from our garage (who works for Nascar on weekends - and with the Earnhardt Family on a frequent occasion ) brings his caliber down to my office to measure the bore.
I gave the slide a good clean last night, and found a little more wear on the inners... but once I lubed, the slide moves well. Not a 10, but it moves well. No catches/hang ups, just a slight drag. Felt like too much lube in the drag spot, but removed lube - still drag a little (but still VERY playable).
It slotted GREAT, and had a nice full tone. Notes seemed to pop out pretty easily - I was impressed. I'll drop it off for a chem clean today, after the bore is measured - to determine the model.
Any suggesting from y'all (John N, JohnL, DJ, anyone else) about the finish?? Of course this depends on how things look after the Chem Clean....
Quote from: bonesmarsh on Jan 20, 2010, 01:27PMAttention TTF members--
You may be a WINNER if you had the following words, to appear in a single post, in the TTF office pool:
1.duck boat
2.shotgun
3, NASCAR
There would have been a BONUS payment of $1,000,000 in the office pool had the following lucky word appeared as well:
4. Confederate
( the board would have accepted "Rebel" for "confederate" as well )
*****
The winning Canadian pool words today would have been "doughnut" or "brewski".
^ Now that's funny!
Other key words...
Sundrop, Cheerwine, Fat Back, grits, Livermush, White Lightning.
T.
Hard to tell in the photos whether it is Gold plate, or lacquer. But looks to be in fantastic shape. Earl used King cases on about 90% of his horns, and a few Olds cases. This would be from the time frame he and Earl Strickler worked at Olds in Los Angeles Ca. So that may be where some of the Olds cases came from. I am sure he used the engravers from Olds to do that work. Most of his horns from that era were very ornate like this one, or very plain. Does not seem to be much in between on engraving.
I think the mouthpiece might be a Bert Herrick, or a Williams mouthpiece, Earl made a few MP's over the years. Robb Stewart has one with an Ivory rim that Earl did. You might check with Noah Gladstone on the MP he is more famiiar with that than I am. He owns many Herrick MP's and has seen a few Williams MP's and I have only seen one. The 7.5" bell is not necessarily a 4 either, that was pretty average in its day for Earl. His larger bore horns seem to have mostly 8" bells, a few 7.5" bells on .500 bores in that time. It will be interesting to see what the bore size is.
Congratulations are in order, what a great find and a tremendous horn you have there!!!
j
Thanks for calling this morning also.
WOW! Thanks John! That's a ton of info to absorb, and GREAT to know.
OK, so the model number is on hold, till my buddy from our garage (who works for Nascar on weekends - and with the Earnhardt Family on a frequent occasion
) brings his caliber down to my office to measure the bore.I gave the slide a good clean last night, and found a little more wear on the inners... but once I lubed, the slide moves well. Not a 10, but it moves well. No catches/hang ups, just a slight drag. Felt like too much lube in the drag spot, but removed lube - still drag a little (but still VERY playable).
It slotted GREAT, and had a nice full tone. Notes seemed to pop out pretty easily - I was impressed. I'll drop it off for a chem clean today, after the bore is measured - to determine the model.
Any suggesting from y'all (John N, JohnL, DJ, anyone else) about the finish?? Of course this depends on how things look after the Chem Clean....
Quote from: bonesmarsh on Jan 20, 2010, 01:27PMAttention TTF members--
You may be a WINNER if you had the following words, to appear in a single post, in the TTF office pool:
1.duck boat
2.shotgun
3, NASCAR
There would have been a BONUS payment of $1,000,000 in the office pool had the following lucky word appeared as well:
4. Confederate
( the board would have accepted "Rebel" for "confederate" as well )
*****
The winning Canadian pool words today would have been "doughnut" or "brewski".
^ Now that's funny!
Other key words...
Sundrop, Cheerwine, Fat Back, grits, Livermush, White Lightning.
T.
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ttf_Chris Fidler
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:41 pm
Earl Williams Trombone
Play the horn for a good while and if you REALLY love it, have it carefully restored and Gold plated!!!!
How much did you pay for it????....... We ALL want to know!!!!
How much did you pay for it????....... We ALL want to know!!!!
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ttf_anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Earl Williams Trombone
Quote from: Chris Fidler on Jan 21, 2010, 07:00AMPlay the horn for a good while and if you REALLY love it, have it carefully restored and Gold plated!!!!
How much did you pay for it????....... We ALL want to know!!!!
Much less than DJ had in his....
Quote from: bachbone on Mar 31, 2009, 12:42PMWhen DJ bought his for the low XXX amount. It will most likely never happen again and the name will come back.
Prolly a lot more though, once I get done with it.
T.
How much did you pay for it????....... We ALL want to know!!!!
Much less than DJ had in his....
Quote from: bachbone on Mar 31, 2009, 12:42PMWhen DJ bought his for the low XXX amount. It will most likely never happen again and the name will come back.
Prolly a lot more though, once I get done with it.
T.
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ttf_anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Earl Williams Trombone
Well, the caliber was dropped off to me. Having never used one before, here's my lame attempt. I will however, check the slide against some Olds I have at home - for comparison - and to make sure.
All indications, if this caliber reads correct - around a .500 bore (little more like .500+
Pics of Caliper on Zero....
Inner Tube
Measurement
Outer Tube
Measurement
Now... last time, I had my brass tech use his caliper (digital), it did not read my Olds Military right. It showed my military as a .500, which it's not. The largest tube on my Military is like .495 (the other tube is much smaller - he measured both at over .500).
Allbeit, this time I used a manual caliber - so maybe it's right this time?
Still gonna compare my Williams to an Olds Super tubes (.495/5.10 dual bore).
It is evident though, the Williams in NOT a dual bore (can flip the slide).
Looking like an Early Williams..... ?6?
It plays very open, even with the small diameter MPC...
T.
All indications, if this caliber reads correct - around a .500 bore (little more like .500+
Pics of Caliper on Zero....
Inner Tube
Measurement
Outer Tube
Measurement
Now... last time, I had my brass tech use his caliper (digital), it did not read my Olds Military right. It showed my military as a .500, which it's not. The largest tube on my Military is like .495 (the other tube is much smaller - he measured both at over .500).
Allbeit, this time I used a manual caliber - so maybe it's right this time?
Still gonna compare my Williams to an Olds Super tubes (.495/5.10 dual bore).
It is evident though, the Williams in NOT a dual bore (can flip the slide).
Looking like an Early Williams..... ?6?
It plays very open, even with the small diameter MPC...
T.
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ttf_john sandhagen
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Earl Williams Trombone
Troy, you'll need to measure inside the inner tubes.
I believe the inners will be about .015 thick... so minus .03 would make it around .470...
Frequently there is a lip on the end of the inners, so measure in as far as possible...and of course not in the leadpipe.
On Drew's 8 after the bath I was very happy that there was no resulting lacquer loss...yours is older and much more loss already...YVMV.
I believe the inners will be about .015 thick... so minus .03 would make it around .470...
Frequently there is a lip on the end of the inners, so measure in as far as possible...and of course not in the leadpipe.
On Drew's 8 after the bath I was very happy that there was no resulting lacquer loss...yours is older and much more loss already...YVMV.
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ttf_anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Earl Williams Trombone
Quote from: john sandhagen on Jan 21, 2010, 09:32AMTroy, you'll need to measure inside the inner tubes.
Yep, just found that out. Like I mentioned.... "my first lame attempt".
Sorry.
Here's the new reading
Now that I know that (measure inside the inner tube), I'll check it this afternoon at my Brass Techs with his digital caliber to get a better reading.
And get JohnL a better reading on my Military also.
Quote from: john sandhagen on Jan 21, 2010, 09:32AMYVMV.
Can you dumb it down for me please.
Not sure what that means (prolly somthing simple) like.. yours very much vintage?
So I'm thinking.... Model 4? maybe 3?
2 .465
3 .480
4 .491
T.
Yep, just found that out. Like I mentioned.... "my first lame attempt".
Sorry.
Here's the new reading
Now that I know that (measure inside the inner tube), I'll check it this afternoon at my Brass Techs with his digital caliber to get a better reading.
And get JohnL a better reading on my Military also.
Quote from: john sandhagen on Jan 21, 2010, 09:32AMYVMV.
Can you dumb it down for me please.
Not sure what that means (prolly somthing simple) like.. yours very much vintage?
So I'm thinking.... Model 4? maybe 3?
2 .465
3 .480
4 .491
T.
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ttf_john sandhagen
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Earl Williams Trombone
Your value may vary...
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ttf_sly fox
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Earl Williams Trombone
IMHO = in my humble opinion
YMMV = your mileage may vary (your opinion/experience could be different, taken from EPA gas estimates
http://onlineslangdictionary.com/definition+of/your+mileage+may+vary
what the Tea Bag group should have checked before choosing their name
YMMV = your mileage may vary (your opinion/experience could be different, taken from EPA gas estimates
http://onlineslangdictionary.com/definition+of/your+mileage+may+vary
what the Tea Bag group should have checked before choosing their name
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ttf_anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Earl Williams Trombone
Quote from: john sandhagen on Jan 21, 2010, 10:01AMYour value may vary...
Ahh, OK.
Still not sure on Value yet. John Noxon gave me a wide range of ball park ideas though.
Had a couple "suggested" offers. NFS (Not for sale)
Pretty sure this one's a keeper.
More info to come, as I get the "digital correct reading"....
Jury still out on whether it's Lacquered or Gold plating.....
T.
Ahh, OK.
Still not sure on Value yet. John Noxon gave me a wide range of ball park ideas though.
Had a couple "suggested" offers. NFS (Not for sale)
Pretty sure this one's a keeper.
More info to come, as I get the "digital correct reading"....
Jury still out on whether it's Lacquered or Gold plating.....
T.
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ttf_dj kennedy
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Earl Williams Trombone
dont chem clean or dip it
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ttf_Dan Martin
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
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ttf_anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Earl Williams Trombone
Quote from: Dan Martin on Jan 21, 2010, 10:52AMwhy?
x2?
Got some crud around the edge of bell/bell wire area. Needs to come off.
Just polish??
T.
x2?
Got some crud around the edge of bell/bell wire area. Needs to come off.
Just polish??
T.
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ttf_dj kennedy
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Earl Williams Trombone
dipping it in a bg tank will knd of bleach it out
changing the patina that developed over years
-----
gold plate is over silver w/o any lacquer there will be places//traces of sil plate
laq --well you know what that looks like in 30s horns
-----
wash it carefully w not real hot water
-----
to measure bore --you use a thing that has little rounded piston things that are retracted
you place it inside up in inner tube then release //lock remove and measure w micrometer
------
like measuring bore of your deer gettin rifle
changing the patina that developed over years
-----
gold plate is over silver w/o any lacquer there will be places//traces of sil plate
laq --well you know what that looks like in 30s horns
-----
wash it carefully w not real hot water
-----
to measure bore --you use a thing that has little rounded piston things that are retracted
you place it inside up in inner tube then release //lock remove and measure w micrometer
------
like measuring bore of your deer gettin rifle
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ttf_dj kennedy
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Earl Williams Trombone
slide is laq 4 sure
if you dip it --look out !!!!!
if you dip it --look out !!!!!
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ttf_anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Earl Williams Trombone
Quote from: dj kennedy on Jan 21, 2010, 11:17AM------
like measuring bore of your deer gettin rifle
Don't have to measure bore of it.
It's a 7MM Mag - says so on side of barrel.
T.
like measuring bore of your deer gettin rifle
Don't have to measure bore of it.
It's a 7MM Mag - says so on side of barrel.
T.
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ttf_Slipmo
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
Earl Williams Trombone
Quote from: jnoxon on Jan 20, 2010, 12:36PMCongratulations! Great find! Looks like a very early Williams, with lots of design left overs from the Wallace era. A most excellent horn. Very similar except for the engraving, of the Silver Wallace Williams I have. The tuning in the slide on mine is on the bottom. counterweight, spit valve, etc all the same as my Wallace. So it is a very authentic horn! I would hesitate to call it a model 4 just yet, or at least until you measure the bore. A model 4 would be a .491 bore, a 6 would be a .500, and an 8 would be a .522 bore.
Hard to tell in the photos whether it is Gold plate, or lacquer. But looks to be in fantastic shape. Earl used King cases on about 90% of his horns, and a few Olds cases. This would be from the time frame he and Earl Strickler worked at Olds in Los Angeles Ca. So that may be where some of the Olds cases came from. I am sure he used the engravers from Olds to do that work. Most of his horns from that era were very ornate like this one, or very plain. Does not seem to be much in between on engraving.
I think the mouthpiece might be a Bert Herrick, or a Williams mouthpiece, Earl made a few MP's over the years. Robb Stewart has one with an Ivory rim that Earl did. You might check with Noah Gladstone on the MP he is more famiiar with that than I am. He owns many Herrick MP's and has seen a few Williams MP's and I have only seen one. The 7.5" bell is not necessarily a 4 either, that was pretty average in its day for Earl. His larger bore horns seem to have mostly 8" bells, a few 7.5" bells on .500 bores in that time. It will be interesting to see what the bore size is.
Congratulations are in order, what a great find and a tremendous horn you have there!!!
j
Thanks for calling this morning also.
Yep, this piece appears to be an original Earl Williams mouthpiece. Nice find
Noah
Hard to tell in the photos whether it is Gold plate, or lacquer. But looks to be in fantastic shape. Earl used King cases on about 90% of his horns, and a few Olds cases. This would be from the time frame he and Earl Strickler worked at Olds in Los Angeles Ca. So that may be where some of the Olds cases came from. I am sure he used the engravers from Olds to do that work. Most of his horns from that era were very ornate like this one, or very plain. Does not seem to be much in between on engraving.
I think the mouthpiece might be a Bert Herrick, or a Williams mouthpiece, Earl made a few MP's over the years. Robb Stewart has one with an Ivory rim that Earl did. You might check with Noah Gladstone on the MP he is more famiiar with that than I am. He owns many Herrick MP's and has seen a few Williams MP's and I have only seen one. The 7.5" bell is not necessarily a 4 either, that was pretty average in its day for Earl. His larger bore horns seem to have mostly 8" bells, a few 7.5" bells on .500 bores in that time. It will be interesting to see what the bore size is.
Congratulations are in order, what a great find and a tremendous horn you have there!!!
j
Thanks for calling this morning also.
Yep, this piece appears to be an original Earl Williams mouthpiece. Nice find
Noah
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ttf_anonymous
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Earl Williams Trombone
Quote from: john sandhagen on Jan 21, 2010, 09:32AMI believe the inners will be about .015 thick... so minus .03 would make it around .470...
Close.
From what I can tell - it's a .480.... but it plays so open, like a .500(+).
Williams Medium Bore
Maybe John N will elaborate with info he shared with me on the phone (transition horn...).
T.
Close.
From what I can tell - it's a .480.... but it plays so open, like a .500(+).
Williams Medium Bore
Maybe John N will elaborate with info he shared with me on the phone (transition horn...).
T.
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ttf_jnoxon
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Earl Williams Trombone
This looks like a horn right at the transition point from Wallace-Williams to Williams on his own without Spike Wallace. The horn has a lot of features of Wallace Williams horns with only Williams as the brand. The tuning in the slide mechanism had a patent applied for but none granted that I can find. The balancer and bell are Wallace style, the slide is definately a Williams slide because it has the patent for the curved grip om it. The numbers are correct for that, the spit valve looks like the ones on my Wallace-Williams horns. The mouthpiece is a Williams. I thought it was but was not certain, so I told Tsmart to contact Noah Gladstone to confirm that fact. And he did.
This is unique horn. It is the earliest Earl Williams horn I have ever seen. The one prior to this is a horn in Chicago the gentleman bought from Earl in 1946 right after the war. So this is the first I have seen that has still has Wallace feature but has only Williams on the bell. The .480 bore and a 7.5 inch bell are not unusual for that era. So it seems to be a very unique horn. The "M" in the bore is a medium bore. And the serial number places it after the end of Wallace horns. Great horn!
This is unique horn. It is the earliest Earl Williams horn I have ever seen. The one prior to this is a horn in Chicago the gentleman bought from Earl in 1946 right after the war. So this is the first I have seen that has still has Wallace feature but has only Williams on the bell. The .480 bore and a 7.5 inch bell are not unusual for that era. So it seems to be a very unique horn. The "M" in the bore is a medium bore. And the serial number places it after the end of Wallace horns. Great horn!
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ttf_dj kennedy
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Earl Williams Trombone
could be first WILLIAMS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!w/o w/w !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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ttf_JohnL
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Earl Williams Trombone
Here's a couple shots of my Williams from the gallery:
Same engraving as tsmart's, same water key design, but a very different TIS system.
I know of three patents issued to Earl Williams:
Slide Trombone
Patent number: 1661147
Filing date: Dec 29, 1925
Issue date: Feb 28, 1928
(this is Williams' configuration for bracing and adjustment mechanism for tuning-in-slide trombones)
Hand-Adapted Trombone Brace
Patent number: 1782452
Filing date: Jan 4, 1928
Issue date: Nov 25, 1930
(this is the trademark Williams curved brace)
Water Key For Brass Musical Instruments
Patent Number: 2439997
Filing date: Sep 10, 1945
Issue date: Apr 20, 1948
(this is the the wrap-around water key design)
I doubt if it would have been possible to patent the squeeze clamp TIS design; too similar to previous work.
A question for John Noxon - do you know if Earl made any non-Wallace horns before WWII? When did Earl and Spike part ways?
Same engraving as tsmart's, same water key design, but a very different TIS system.
I know of three patents issued to Earl Williams:
Slide Trombone
Patent number: 1661147
Filing date: Dec 29, 1925
Issue date: Feb 28, 1928
(this is Williams' configuration for bracing and adjustment mechanism for tuning-in-slide trombones)
Hand-Adapted Trombone Brace
Patent number: 1782452
Filing date: Jan 4, 1928
Issue date: Nov 25, 1930
(this is the trademark Williams curved brace)
Water Key For Brass Musical Instruments
Patent Number: 2439997
Filing date: Sep 10, 1945
Issue date: Apr 20, 1948
(this is the the wrap-around water key design)
I doubt if it would have been possible to patent the squeeze clamp TIS design; too similar to previous work.
A question for John Noxon - do you know if Earl made any non-Wallace horns before WWII? When did Earl and Spike part ways?
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ttf_anonymous
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Earl Williams Trombone
JohnL - beautiful horn!!!!
T.
T.
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ttf_Bach42BOS
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Earl Williams Trombone
Holy smokes!!!! That's sickkkk!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: tsmart on Jan 20, 2010, 09:30AMPics....
Like I said, it needs a re-finish job.
Bell:
TIS (in)
TIS (out)
Hand Grip
MPC
Spit Valve
Assembled
Thoughts?
Early Williams? 1938ish?
Bore - not sure yet.
T.
Quote from: tsmart on Jan 20, 2010, 09:30AMPics....
Like I said, it needs a re-finish job.
Bell:
TIS (in)
TIS (out)
Hand Grip
MPC
Spit Valve
Assembled
Thoughts?
Early Williams? 1938ish?
Bore - not sure yet.
T.
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ttf_octavposaune
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Earl Williams Trombone
Hey 42BOS,
didn't you end up with that W@W with the gold plate and heavy engraving?
I think you also have a holy smokes horn, why don't you post some better pictures?
Benn
didn't you end up with that W@W with the gold plate and heavy engraving?
I think you also have a holy smokes horn, why don't you post some better pictures?
Benn
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ttf_lingon
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Earl Williams Trombone
Anyone seen a Selmer Williams? This, http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290394278006&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT , looks like one.
Was there any connection between Earl and Selmer or is this instrument just a coincidence?!
Was there any connection between Earl and Selmer or is this instrument just a coincidence?!
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ttf_john sandhagen
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Earl Williams Trombone
That is a interesting bell choice for such a cool slide. Like putting a Lamborghini hood on an Edsel.
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ttf_Dan Martin
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Earl Williams Trombone
Thats a Williams slide on a Selmer horn I'm guessing.
Edit: Missed that it was a completed auction.
Edit: Missed that it was a completed auction.
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ttf_Alex McMahon
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Earl Williams Trombone
Ha! I have one of those too! Selmer Signet bell on a Williams slide. I'd equate it more to a MG (bell) and Cadillac (slide). Not a bad price to get a Williams slide. This is at least the 3rd Selmer Signet bell and Williams slide combo I've seen. Makes me wonder if there were bells to these slides, or if the slides were overstock for a while and got unloaded somewhere.
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ttf_Bach42BOS
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Earl Williams Trombone
Quote from: octavposaune on Jan 27, 2010, 09:13PMHey 42BOS,
didn't you end up with that W@W with the gold plate and heavy engraving?
I think you also have a holy smokes horn, why don't you post some better pictures?
Benn
sure did, but my schedule is really hectic at the moment so it may be awhile before i can take some pics of it.
didn't you end up with that W@W with the gold plate and heavy engraving?
I think you also have a holy smokes horn, why don't you post some better pictures?
Benn
sure did, but my schedule is really hectic at the moment so it may be awhile before i can take some pics of it.
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ttf_anonymous
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- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Earl Williams Trombone
Quote from: lingon on Jan 29, 2010, 01:59PMAnyone seen a Selmer Williams? This, http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290394278006&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT , looks like one.
Was there any connection between Earl and Selmer or is this instrument just a coincidence?!
I had the top bid on that horn, until the last couple seconds.
Would have loved to got it. Just curious what the bore was........
Hate I lost it.
T.
Was there any connection between Earl and Selmer or is this instrument just a coincidence?!
I had the top bid on that horn, until the last couple seconds.
Would have loved to got it. Just curious what the bore was........
Hate I lost it.
T.
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ttf_Bach42BOS
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Earl Williams Trombone
Quote from: dj kennedy on Jan 07, 2010, 06:09PM
the 1946 4 that is surfing now ------WOW WOW WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it wishes it were out surfing! heck, i can't even swim!!
Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Jan 07, 2010, 09:03PMHuh? What?!!! What 1946 4?!!! Where?!!!
lol
Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Jan 07, 2010, 11:08PMNo, I'm afraid I don't. Does he have a 4 for sale? I'm curious as to how much he wants for it, even though I probably can't afford it since I just bought two new trombones in the last couple of months.
it's the one i bought.
Quote from: dj kennedy on Jan 08, 2010, 09:33AMa 4 sold for 4000 ////////////then 8000
save your nickles !!!!!!!!
gotta pay to play i guess?
Quote from: Ronobone on Jan 08, 2010, 10:47AM
Nice thread!
I'm the owner of a #4 and a #6,
the #4 is in good shape, the #6 in fantastic shape, looks like it's made yesterday . . .
The #4 is my main axe, just love this horn, never played anything like it.
The #4 has sn 84* (I should have a look, don't know for sure)
The #6 . . . . . should get it out of the basement . . .
Therefore I'm thinking of selling the #6, this horn is just to good not to be played . . . .
==============
I remember a Williams Bass trumpet sold on eBay a few years ago, (now that is something else!)
anybody information on that one?
Thanks!
Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Jan 08, 2010, 03:30PMDo you mean $8000.00?!!!! Holy smokes!!!! I guess I'll pass. I'll just play my 6.
Lucky guy! I know the guy who has the Williams bass trumpet. He's a lucky guy too.
I'll get a 4 one of these days. They must be around in someone's attic or closet!
Aloha,
Richard
yeah it was quite the pretty penny, but worth it IMO.
Quote from: john sandhagen on Jan 21, 2010, 09:32AMTroy, you'll need to measure inside the inner tubes.
I believe the inners will be about .015 thick... so minus .03 would make it around .470...
Frequently there is a lip on the end of the inners, so measure in as far as possible...and of course not in the leadpipe.
On Drew's 8 after the bath I was very happy that there was no resulting lacquer loss...yours is older and much more loss already...YVMV.
yup, thanks again John for the excellent work you did on my 9! it looks like a jewel!
the 1946 4 that is surfing now ------WOW WOW WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it wishes it were out surfing! heck, i can't even swim!!
Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Jan 07, 2010, 09:03PMHuh? What?!!! What 1946 4?!!! Where?!!!
lol
Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Jan 07, 2010, 11:08PMNo, I'm afraid I don't. Does he have a 4 for sale? I'm curious as to how much he wants for it, even though I probably can't afford it since I just bought two new trombones in the last couple of months.
it's the one i bought.
Quote from: dj kennedy on Jan 08, 2010, 09:33AMa 4 sold for 4000 ////////////then 8000
save your nickles !!!!!!!!
gotta pay to play i guess?
Quote from: Ronobone on Jan 08, 2010, 10:47AM
Nice thread!
I'm the owner of a #4 and a #6,
the #4 is in good shape, the #6 in fantastic shape, looks like it's made yesterday . . .
The #4 is my main axe, just love this horn, never played anything like it.
The #4 has sn 84* (I should have a look, don't know for sure)
The #6 . . . . . should get it out of the basement . . .
Therefore I'm thinking of selling the #6, this horn is just to good not to be played . . . .
==============
I remember a Williams Bass trumpet sold on eBay a few years ago, (now that is something else!)
anybody information on that one?
Thanks!
Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Jan 08, 2010, 03:30PMDo you mean $8000.00?!!!! Holy smokes!!!! I guess I'll pass. I'll just play my 6.
Lucky guy! I know the guy who has the Williams bass trumpet. He's a lucky guy too.
I'll get a 4 one of these days. They must be around in someone's attic or closet!
Aloha,
Richard
yeah it was quite the pretty penny, but worth it IMO.
Quote from: john sandhagen on Jan 21, 2010, 09:32AMTroy, you'll need to measure inside the inner tubes.
I believe the inners will be about .015 thick... so minus .03 would make it around .470...
Frequently there is a lip on the end of the inners, so measure in as far as possible...and of course not in the leadpipe.
On Drew's 8 after the bath I was very happy that there was no resulting lacquer loss...yours is older and much more loss already...YVMV.
yup, thanks again John for the excellent work you did on my 9! it looks like a jewel!
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ttf_dj kennedy
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Earl Williams Trombone
saw one before -it might be the same one --recycling !!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Alex McMahon on Jan 29, 2010, 05:46PMHa! I have one of those too! Selmer Signet bell on a Williams slide. I'd equate it more to a MG (bell) and Cadillac (slide). Not a bad price to get a Williams slide. This is at least the 3rd Selmer Signet bell and Williams slide combo I've seen. Makes me wonder if there were bells to these slides, or if the slides were overstock for a while and got unloaded somewhere.
Quote from: Alex McMahon on Jan 29, 2010, 05:46PMHa! I have one of those too! Selmer Signet bell on a Williams slide. I'd equate it more to a MG (bell) and Cadillac (slide). Not a bad price to get a Williams slide. This is at least the 3rd Selmer Signet bell and Williams slide combo I've seen. Makes me wonder if there were bells to these slides, or if the slides were overstock for a while and got unloaded somewhere.
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ttf_anonymous
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Earl Williams Trombone
Before
After
Lighting a little different @ work vs at home.
T.
After
Lighting a little different @ work vs at home.
T.
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ttf_Bach42BOS
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Earl Williams Trombone
Quote from: octavposaune on Jan 27, 2010, 09:13PMHey 42BOS,
didn't you end up with that W@W with the gold plate and heavy engraving?
I think you also have a holy smokes horn, why don't you post some better pictures?
Benn
i think the greyhound looking dog is pretty darn cool in the engraving!
didn't you end up with that W@W with the gold plate and heavy engraving?
I think you also have a holy smokes horn, why don't you post some better pictures?
Benn
i think the greyhound looking dog is pretty darn cool in the engraving!
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ttf_Richard Tadaki
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Earl Williams Trombone
Holy smokes!!! Awesome!!!
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ttf_JohnL
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Earl Williams Trombone
D*mn!
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ttf_lingon
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Earl Williams Trombone
Fantastic!!
Does it play too?!
Does it play too?!
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ttf_Bach42BOS
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Earl Williams Trombone
Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Feb 07, 2010, 10:01AMHoly smokes!!! Awesome!!!
Quote from: JohnL on Feb 07, 2010, 10:20AMD*mn!
exact same word that came out of my mouth when i opened up the case.
Quote from: lingon on Feb 07, 2010, 10:53AMFantastic!!
Does it play too?!
haha, yes and no. reason being is that i found four small little holes on the upper inner slide tube right between 2nd and 3rd position. so yes, it does play... but only notes that can be played in 1st and 2nd lol! i'm gonna send it off to John Sandhagen in the near future along with my other WW.
Quote from: JohnL on Feb 07, 2010, 10:20AMD*mn!
exact same word that came out of my mouth when i opened up the case.
Quote from: lingon on Feb 07, 2010, 10:53AMFantastic!!
Does it play too?!
haha, yes and no. reason being is that i found four small little holes on the upper inner slide tube right between 2nd and 3rd position. so yes, it does play... but only notes that can be played in 1st and 2nd lol! i'm gonna send it off to John Sandhagen in the near future along with my other WW.
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ttf_Exzaclee
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Earl Williams Trombone
nothing a little JB cold weld won't fix
i've had to patch holes like this before, but never on such a nice horn...
i've had to patch holes like this before, but never on such a nice horn...
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ttf_Richard Tadaki
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Earl Williams Trombone
Hi All,
Compared to Drew's Wallace Williams, you might find this picture uninteresting but it's probably still a pretty rare sight. It shows my friend Stephen (on the left) playing his Calicchio Williams 6, which I believe was the last 6 that John Duda made under the Williams name, and me playing my Calicchio 8 with the Maui Pops Orchestra. I feel justified in showing this picture in a Williams thread because almost all of the parts of my 8 were made when John still had the rights to use the Williams name. John messed up with one of the outer slide tubes and had to pull another one, so that's the only part that wasn't made when he was still making Williams trombones.
Those of you with sharp eyes might notice that the bell of my 8 isn't 8 1/2" in diameter. Unfortunately John cut the bell too small to 8 1/8" so he is in the process of making an 8 1/2" bell for me, which I hope to get soon.
Personally, I wish we could get Drew over here to play bass trombone for us. Imagine, a 6 on 1st, an 8 on 2nd, and a 10 on 3rd. Oooooo...
Aloha,
Richard
Oops, almost forgot the picture.
Compared to Drew's Wallace Williams, you might find this picture uninteresting but it's probably still a pretty rare sight. It shows my friend Stephen (on the left) playing his Calicchio Williams 6, which I believe was the last 6 that John Duda made under the Williams name, and me playing my Calicchio 8 with the Maui Pops Orchestra. I feel justified in showing this picture in a Williams thread because almost all of the parts of my 8 were made when John still had the rights to use the Williams name. John messed up with one of the outer slide tubes and had to pull another one, so that's the only part that wasn't made when he was still making Williams trombones.
Those of you with sharp eyes might notice that the bell of my 8 isn't 8 1/2" in diameter. Unfortunately John cut the bell too small to 8 1/8" so he is in the process of making an 8 1/2" bell for me, which I hope to get soon.
Personally, I wish we could get Drew over here to play bass trombone for us. Imagine, a 6 on 1st, an 8 on 2nd, and a 10 on 3rd. Oooooo...
Aloha,
Richard
Oops, almost forgot the picture.