TromboneChat

The video is Ray Charles Soul in the Holy Land. And sure enough he is playing a Williams model 9.

http://tv.jazzcorner.com/view_video.php?viewkey=c756c961c5a6d6c01a46&page=1&viewtype=&category=mr

Quote from: jnoxon on Oct 26, 2009, 10:23AMThe video is Ray Charles Soul in the Holy Land. And sure enough he is playing a Williams model 9.

http://tv.jazzcorner.com/view_video.php?viewkey=c756c961c5a6d6c01a46&page=1&viewtype=&category=mr

Oooo...  I wonder where that 9 is?!!!  I wonder if he wants to sell it?!!!   

hum    i might be  able  to shake some trees 

Quote from: dj kennedy on Oct 27, 2009, 07:12AMhum    i might be  able  to shake some trees 

Hmmm...  It can't be too expensive.  I just spent a ton of $$$$$.   

you  mean like  8  grand  for  a 4  !!!!!!!!!!!!!! ha ha  !!!!!


Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Oct 27, 2009, 11:07AMHmmm...  It can't be too expensive.  I just spent a ton of $$$$$.   

Quote from: dj kennedy on Oct 27, 2009, 11:36AMyou  mean like  8  grand  for  a 4  !!!!!!!!!!!!!! ha ha  !!!!!

Quote from: dj kennedy on Oct 27, 2009, 11:36AMyou  mean like  8  grand  for  a 4  !!!!!!!!!!!!!! ha ha  !!!!!


Well...  You see...  The thing is I have yet another trombone coming pretty soon, hopefully in the next couple of weeks.  My financial resources will be completely drained at that point and it'll take some time to build it up again.  I wish I had a huge supply of money so I could jump at these opportunities as they come up.   

8 grand for a 4, huh?  Phew!!!  Too rich for my blood. 

I'll post pictures when I get the new horn.   

 
 


Quote from: Bach42BOS on Oct 27, 2009, 11:52AM

By the way, since I've been thanking everybody for their part in my new 6, I should also mention Ferguson Music (aka Horn Guys) for picking up the horn from Kanstul and shipping it to me in the Tank that they were holding for me.  Thanks to Steve and the gang.   

Aloha to all,
Richard

So Drew got that 9 from Alhambra CA last night. Rudy Gsrcia went to check it out yesterday. He sez it is like new. Been in the closet for a long time 12 - 15 years something like that. According to Rudy showroom condition. After 15 years in the closet the slide was even good, did not put a thing on it and it played great! Nickel crook, round crook, not dual radius on the hand slide, and 11XX serial number about  35 or 40 higher than my nine. Does not even need to be cleaned, just beautiful like new condition. Burbank, Earl Williams Custom MAde on the bell stem.

So Congrats Drew another fine horn for the collection!

Wow!!!  I would say lucky guy, and there's some of that too, but I have to admit that he makes his opportunities happen and is ready when the opportunities come.  Great purchase.  It looks like I'll have to fly over to his island to check it out!!!   

Congratulations, Drew.   

I'm sure it's been asked, but does anyone have an idea of how mant williams trombones were manufactured?

Thanks, Dan

Let's see, the numbers I know -- there are four known model 4's, twelve known model 10 bass bones, and one bass trumpet.  The other models were 6, 7 (6 with an f-attachment), 8, and 9 (8 with an f-attachment).  Earl also built Wallace Williams bones prior to making Earl Williams Custom Trombones.  Maybe John Noxon can fill in those numbers.

To the best of my knowledge a total of about 850 to 900 Wallace Williams based on serial numbers. The Los Angeles horn prior to Burbank around 1100 or so. The Burbank years go to around 3500 to 4000. Each location had its own serial number run. And a couple of hundred built by Bob after Earls death. The highest of the 3xxx serial numbers, of Bob's, I have seen was around 3200. There was also a number of horns built after WWII and before he got to the Los Angeles address, unknown number of these. The largest concentration being LA and Burbank. Near as I can tell in Burbank each model (4 and 5) (6 and 7) (8 and 9) had there own run of numbers. So about 1300 4's about 1500 6's and 7's, about 1200 8's and 9's and the model 10's all 12 of them. So Burbank comes up to a total of around 4000 plus?

This is really speculation on my part. There are no serial number records or books that were kept by Earl or anyone else. So knowing how he numbered the horns and going by the highest serial numbers I have seen is how arrived at these figures.

I would like to hear from anyone who has a serial number and a specific date it was purchased. First hand knowledge is always very helpful to have. I would also like to hear from the high serial numbers in each group. Maybe there were more than I thought or know of!

Hope this helps bit!

Quote from: jnoxon on Nov 20, 2009, 12:25PM...So about 1300 4's about 1500 6's and 7's, about 1200 8's and 9's and the model 10's all 12 of them. So Burbank comes up to a total of around 4000 plus?

This is really speculation on my part. There are no serial number records or books that were kept by Earl or anyone else.


Hmmm...  That many 4's, huh?  Obviously I was underestimating them by a ton.  I'll have to watch out for one.   

In 35 years I have seen 3 for sale. One from Best Music in about 1985, the one I got from Billy and Bryant Byers, and the one Dick Dreiwitz, sold to Bjorn and is now owned by the "Hawaii Trombone Mafia" LOL. I bought the other 2. So if they are around they are well hidden. I only know of 4 more than mine.

Quote from: jnoxon on Nov 20, 2009, 05:30PMIn 35 years I have seen 3 for sale. One from Best Music in about 1985, the one I got from Billy and Bryant Byers, and the one Dick Dreiwitz, sold to Bjorn and is now owned by the "Hawaii Trombone Mafia" LOL. I bought the other 2. So if they are around they are well hidden. I only know of 4 more than mine.

LOL!  Yeah, I'm still working on my collection.  I'm hoping to get my 8 in the next couple of weeks but I've been thinking that for the last three months!!!   

Seriously, though, I'm surprised that there aren't a thousand 4's out there, considering that it's such a great jazz horn!  I hope to find one someday but I'm not going to hold my breath.   

Aloha,
Richard

Thats pretty interesting stuff John. Could you walk into the shop in Burbank say, and just buy one out of the store, if they had one done? Could rich travelers to California go buy them and scatter them across the world?

Also I was looking at some dudes profile here on the forum and I noticed he listed 3 Williams in his collection. He was in Washington.

I would think that there are probably hundreds of these horns sitting around gathering dust in attics all over the U.S and abroad.  Or just tucked away as prised items.  They way I see it dude buys it in the 40's when he was 20 something and keeps it till he dies. The kids know its special so they hold onto it. It's the grandkids that have no use for the stuff and they sell it. I guess my question is are these trombones rare or just hard to find because people hoard them, or collect them?  Same like the 78H. I don't think that is a rare horn.  Conn must have made thousands of them, but people hold on to them because they like them. Now that the greatest generation is dieing off, or being put in assisted living situation, their stuff, and their trombones are being found and sold on EBay. More Williams' to come, thats my bet.

Now, tell me what model Williams was most like the 78H?  I'm going to manifest it's existence in my life by thinking positive thoughts, but I need the model number. I don't think the cosmic forces that exist will allow me to be vague.


Dan

Quote from: Dan Martin on Nov 20, 2009, 06:38PMNow, tell me what model Williams was most like the 78H?  I'm going to manifest it's existence in my life by thinking positive thoughts, but I need the model number. I don't think the cosmic forces that exist will allow me to be vague.
Model 8 is closest to the 78H

Quote from: Dan Martin on Nov 20, 2009, 06:38PM
Also I was looking at some dudes profile here on the forum and I noticed he listed 3 Williams in his collection. He was in Washington.


I don't know about the Washingtonian to whom you're referring, but I was in college in Washington and, at that time (1969-73), the principal trombonist of the Seattle Symphony, Ken Cloud, was playing a Williams 9 (I believe -- never got to see it up close).  I was looking for a new horn and my trombone teacher, who was a friend of Cloud, suggested that I check out a Williams and got the contact information for me.  I called ahead, then flew down to Burbank and played two horns that Bob (Earl's son -- Earl wasn't in that day) had ready to go, a 6 and an 8.  I loved the 8 and wanted to buy it but Bob, having by this time heard that I played in jazz band, concert band, and orchestra, recommended that I get a 6 because it was a more "versatile" (his word) horn and it would fit in everything.  He was right and I've never regretted buying the 6, but I still wish I had an 8 so I'm working on it.   

Quote from: Dan Martin on Nov 20, 2009, 06:38PM
Could you walk into the shop in Burbank say, and just buy one out of the store, if they had one done? Could rich travelers to California go buy them and scatter them across the world?


Well, something like that.  I walked into the Burbank shop and could have walked out with the 6 but, unfortunately, I only had my checkbook with me and Bob would only accept cash or a cashier's check.  I was leaving to go back to school the next day so I mailed him a cashiers check once I got back.  My 6 arrived in a very timely manner and I've been playing it ever since -- March 1971. 

Quote from: Dan Martin on Nov 20, 2009, 06:38PM
I would think that there are probably hundreds of these horns sitting around gathering dust in attics all over the U.S and abroad.  Or just tucked away as prised items.  They way I see it dude buys it in the 40's when he was 20 something and keeps it till he dies. The kids know its special so they hold onto it. It's the grandkids that have no use for the stuff and they sell it. I guess my question is are these trombones rare or just hard to find because people hoard them, or collect them?  Same like the 78H. I don't think that is a rare horn.  Conn must have made thousands of them, but people hold on to them because they like them. Now that the greatest generation is dieing off, or being put in assisted living situation, their stuff, and their trombones are being found and sold on EBay. More Williams' to come, thats my bet.


This is a really interesting idea!  I think I'll place my bet with you.  More Williams' to come.  That's a very nice thought!   

Quote from: jnoxon on Nov 19, 2009, 04:18PMSo Drew got that 9 from Alhambra CA last night. Rudy Gsrcia went to check it out yesterday. He sez it is like new. Been in the closet for a long time 12 - 15 years something like that. According to Rudy showroom condition. After 15 years in the closet the slide was even good, did not put a thing on it and it played great! Nickel crook, round crook, not dual radius on the hand slide, and 11XX serial number about  35 or 40 higher than my nine. Does not even need to be cleaned, just beautiful like new condition. Burbank, Earl Williams Custom MAde on the bell stem.

So Congrats Drew another fine horn for the collection!
thanks John! i can't wait to receive it!
Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Nov 19, 2009, 05:25PMWow!!!  I would say lucky guy, and there's some of that too, but I have to admit that he makes his opportunities happen and is ready when the opportunities come.  Great purchase.  It looks like I'll have to fly over to his island to check it out!!!   

Congratulations, Drew.   
first off, i have to thank my friend and fellow trombonist Clyde Y. for alerting me about the horn. and i'm also glad that this horn came on the market now, and not when i bought my Rath contra cause i wouldn't have been able to afford it.

does anyone have pics of a model 5 and 7?

A 5 is a model 4 with an "F" attachment. A 7 would be a 6 with an "F" attachment. Look exactly like a model 9, just a different bore size. The 4 is a .40 and the 6 is a .500

Dan you are probably right, about them being in attics, garages etc. Very few who own a Williams part with them. Any one could walk in and buy one. There were always horns available. The 4, 6, 7, 8 , and 9s were always around. The 4 is .490, 6 is .500, 8 is .522. The odd number 5, 7, 9 just indicated an "F" attachment.

The shop was behind Earl's house in Burbank. Milt Bernhart was just down the street, and almost a daily visitor. He and Earl worked on all kind of funky things together. In the 60 and 70's everyone in LA played these horns. They were just every where. I remember being amazed at Milt he bought a 6 with 3 slides. Because he was playing so much he would wear on out in about 2 or 3 years. And that way there was a spare when it was in the shop. I can not imagine playing that much. I don't think I could wear out a horn in a lifetime! Prices were not bad in the 70's. I will see if I can attach a price list.

More of these will turn up for sure. If you are ever in LA get a hold of me and you can play a 8 or a 9 or whatever you would like to play!

To add on to my story of the purchase of my 6, when Bob told me that he wanted cash or a cashier's check, he probably saw the disappointment on my face and understood that I wanted to pick out my own horn and he said something like, "You probably wanted to picke out your own horn."   Then he added, "I tell you what.  Milt Berhardt lives up the street and when I get your money I'll have Milt come over and pick one out for you."  Now that I think about it, that was probably a good thing because I was a sophomore in college and what did I know about picking out a great horn back then?  The 6 I got had obviously been played, judging from the cold cream that was on the slide, and it was a fabulous horn so I've always assumed that Milt did, indeed, pick out my horn, and I'm absolutely positive that he did a far better job than I could have.   

Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Nov 21, 2009, 05:41PMTo add on to my story of the purchase of my 6, when Bob told me that he wanted cash or a cashier's check, he probably saw the disappointment on my face and understood that I wanted to pick out my own horn and he said something like, "You probably wanted to picke out your own horn."   Then he added, "I tell you what.  Milt Berhardt lives up the street and when I get your money I'll have Milt come over and pick one out for you."  Now that I think about it, that was probably a good thing because I was a sophomore in college and what did I know about picking out a great horn back then?  The 6 I got had obviously been played, judging from the cold cream that was on the slide, and it was a fabulous horn so I've always assumed that Milt did, indeed, pick out my horn, and I'm absolutely positive that he did a far better job than I could have.   


That brings up an interesting question. Were there Williams "duds"? I would assume that with a handbuilt horn you'd get a very consistent level of quality, but a lot of different shades of perfect, depending on the player who is judging the horn. If a horn is perfect for Milt Bernhardt, does that mean it's perfect for other players as well?

Over the years I have played a few Williams. I have never found a horn as originally built by Earl that was "bad". Some better than others but not a dud. The level of consistency was amazing for hand built horns. No CNC machines in those days either. They all vary a little bit but not far.

Quote from: jnoxon on Nov 20, 2009, 05:30PMIn 35 years I have seen 3 for sale. One from Best Music in about 1985, the one I got from Billy and Bryant Byers, and the one Dick Dreiwitz, sold to Bjorn and is now owned by the "Hawaii Trombone Mafia" LOL. I bought the other 2. So if they are around they are well hidden. I only know of 4 more than mine.
Do you think us younger generation folks will ever see 4's available on the market? In 35 years you've only seen three come on the market, it kinda makes me wonder what the future has in store for us younger folks.

If I knew where they were I could answer that! I think Williams in general will keep showing up. Look at how many horns Conn made. Stuff still keeps showing up from the 1890's to the 1940's. Look how few horns Williams made compared to Conn, amazing that as many turn up as they do. Talk to my wife when I am gone! But remember the good die young, so I SHOULD be eternal!LOL

Quote from: jnoxon on Nov 21, 2009, 09:01PMIf I knew where they were I could answer that! I think Williams in general will keep showing up. Look at how many horns Conn made. Stuff still keeps showing up from the 1890's to the 1940's. Look how few horns Williams made compared to Conn, amazing that as many turn up as they do. Talk to my wife when I am gone! But remember the good die young, so I SHOULD be eternal!LOL
I sure do hope horns keep showing up in the years to come! If I ever get married and have kids and they end up playing trombone, they're gonna inherit some nice stuff lol!!

Quote from: jnoxon on Nov 21, 2009, 09:01PMTalk to my wife when I am gone! But remember the good die young, so I SHOULD be eternal!Heck, just sell 'em now with a contract for them to be delivered after you go to the big gig in the sky.

compliments of Bjorn Samuelsson

You guys have probably already seen this, but I was checking the Trombone Forum Classifieds to be sure there weren't any new spam ads and came across this:

http://classifieds.tromboneforum.org/detail.php?id=5554

Hi Alea,

Thanks for the heads-up on the 6.  I'm thinking about it.   

Aloha,
Richard

Dont think to long......

The only reason I'm thinking is because I don't really think I can afford it AND the 8 that should be coming "any day now," somthing that I've been saying for a couple of months.  Maybe the other Hawaiian Williams fanatic can pick it up.  We can never have enough Williams trombones in Hawaii!!!   

The reason I'm even thinking about it is because, from all evidence, my '71 Burbank 6 has design elements (single radius tuning slide, single radius slide crook) implemented but Earl's son Bob, and I've been wondering what it's like to play an "standard" Earl Williams.  I'm more curious than anything else.  Of course, a "standard" Williams 6 would be nice to have along with my (what is probably) early prototype of the 6 that Bob built after Earl's passing.

Come to think of it, does anyone out there have a '72 or '73 Burbank 6?  I'd be really interested in seeing pictures of it.  Does it have the dual radius tuning slide and slide crook like the earlier Burbank 6's or the single radius crooks like my '71?


 

How much did the last 6 sell for?  How much for the 8?  Kaimuki High School grad. Keiki o' Ka' Aina special?

I even know Oahu Tadaki's. 

Hi Dan,

My recent Frankenbone Williams 6 ended up costing pretty close to $3K.  The 8 will also cost about $3K.  At this point, I really want to get the 8 so I should probably pass on the Burbank 6 in the classifieds right now.

I'm related to all of the Tadakis on Oahu.  Some are first cousins, others are second cousins, but we're all pretty closely related.  However, I've never met some of them.  I think some of them went to Kaimuki High School, too!   

Aloha,
Richard

joel  felberg   has  a  6
  it  was with  a  6h
parts had been  swapped around
aaron put it bach  !!!!!!!!!!!!

Ah, The sharks can smell the blood in the water!

You know how people send pictures of their loved ones to friends at the holidays, right?  Well here's my attempt at that tradition: 

I call this one "The Williams Brothers" 



Burbank Williams 6 on the left.
Burbank Williams 8 on the right.

Someday I'll take some great pictures of my horns...

lovely!!!!!!!

Sweet!!!  Lucky guy!!!   

Quote from: onetrombone on Nov 27, 2009, 08:37PMYou know how people send pictures of their loved ones to friends at the holidays, right?  Well here's my attempt at that tradition: 

I call this one "The Williams Brothers" 



Burbank Williams 6 on the left.
Burbank Williams 8 on the right.

Someday I'll take some great pictures of my horns...

which one is Andy and which one is Bernie?

Very cool! Which do you play the most? When did you get them and what is the back story on getting them? Have you seen www.myspace.com/williamstrombones yet?

j
Check the progile for a couple of pictures of my William herd.

Pretty!  I love the angles of some of the photos and the wrap on the bell section. Just a nice looking horn.  

  I'm enjoying the heck out of these pictures.    

Yes.  As tbone62 said, great pictures.    Beautiful horn too.   

Do you fancy buying mine too? Besson Sovereign BE944!  How are they regarded in the trombone world?  I'm not too clued up nowadays!?

might want to post that on the "Re: Besson Trombone"  page.