Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

ttf_Bassmentbone · Post by **ttf_Bassmentbone** » Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:48 pm

Quote from: Euphoni on Jun 02, 2015, 04:57PM
Something I've always wondered.. would a thicker gauge of red brass compensate at all for the amount/type of vibration that kind of metal gives off? (does that make sense?) Meaning, does it take more to get a little edge on a thicker red brass bell? or does it get that sizzle with the same ease, but a different sounding sizzle?

Btw, the accompanying set up would be

-2R
-Dual Bore Rotor (nickel rotor)
-TW47
-Gold TS
-1.5L leadpipe

From my limited experience, I'd say sure a thicker red brass bell will be less brilliant than a thinner red brass bell

BUT

That doesnt mean it will play as consistant as a yellow brass bell

AND

Thick red brass can be VERY dark and veiled in the quiets. Kind of a trade off.

ttf_Bassmentbone · Post by **ttf_Bassmentbone** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:36 pm

Let me throw a couple more questions at Ben.

Disclaimer: A person who knows very well what sound and feel they want with no preconceived notions will probably fair better than those who may have a bias. But, fact is, some of us do have a bias. So Ben...

1) What if someone had a particulat attatchment to Yellow brass. They just feel at home on it, yet, they are looking for a sound more readily found on gold or red brass. What would you do?

Also, do asthetics play a role in the process? Say someone really likes the look of a gold brass bell, but wants the sound readily found on yellow brass.

Thanks in advance

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:26 pm

Quote from: Bassmentbone on Jun 03, 2015, 05:36PMLet me throw a couple more questions at Ben.

Disclaimer: A person who knows very well what sound and feel they want with no preconceived notions will probably fair better than those who may have a bias. But, fact is, some of us do have a bias. So Ben...

1) What if someone had a particulat attatchment to Yellow brass. They just feel at home on it, yet, they are looking for a sound more readily found on gold or red brass. What would you do?

Also, do asthetics play a role in the process? Say someone really likes the look of a gold brass bell, but wants the sound readily found on yellow brass.

Thanks in advance

I'll give the most honest answer I can: you sell them whatever they want to buy.

ttf_Bassmentbone · Post by **ttf_Bassmentbone** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:40 am

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Jun 03, 2015, 08:26PMI'll give the most answer I can: you sell them whatever they want to buy.

Wow, what a statement.
Thanks Gabe!

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:44 am

Quote from: Bassmentbone on Jun 04, 2015, 02:40AMWow, what a statement.
Thanks Gabe!

Hopefully you will indulge me as I expand on this.

When an individual is purchasing and instrument for themselves they only need to satisfy one person. There can be all kinds of motivations and priorities for that person that may differ from yours or mine. That person will not be satisfied until that criteria are met.

I will always give my honest and most informed opinion to anyone; if I have concerns I will raise them. But I also take into account that the customer is buying the horn and lives with it from that day forth, not me.

So, yeah: whatever they want to buy.

Ben

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:21 am

Just a couple of small points:

There are a lot of factors in trombone design besides material choice that affect "bright" or "dark" tone. You really have to look at the whole package to make a choice.

Also, you will adapt your playing to the instrument you buy. A yellow brass horn does not force you to play bright nor does a red brass one force you to play dark. You can make a yellow brass horn play dark and a red brass horn play bright. What you want is something that helps you make the sounds you want. And if that's a beat up Bundy, have at it!

ttf_CRWV1987 · Post by **ttf_CRWV1987** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:44 am

"I'll take the B62-78nlw, CG, BII 7YHW 10.5"
"no. you'll have the B62N, BII 7Y mw or nothing"

see what I mean?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:51 am

If they don't happen to have the parts you asked for in stock, you will either have to take what they have or not (and wait for a special build if necessary).

I personally think pre-specifying a horn is a fool's errand since you don't really know what the result will sound like when you play it. Or maybe you are being pretentious and ordering something you really can't use just to be able to say "mine's bigger!". Not too many people still playing Bonezilla -- it's just too big to work.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:56 am

Quote from: CRWV1987 on Jun 04, 2015, 08:44AM"I'll take the B62-78nlw, CG, BII 7YHW 10.5"
"no. you'll have the B62N, BII 7Y mw or nothing"

see what I mean?

I'm sure this was exaggerated for the sake of example, but such things can sometimes influence impressionable minds.I want to comment, only because there have been several inquiries/requests for an instrument very similar to the first one listed lately...

I recommend speaking with someone from the factory, your teacher/colleagues, or similar professional before ordering a completely custom horn that you have not tried yet. We know how a certain collection of parts will react together for the majority of players out there. When something gets pretty far off the beaten path it sends a red flag up to us and we like to confirm that the customer knows what they're getting into with it.

Most of the time the desired instrument is very different than what is initially in one's mind.

Then again, if they sounded great on a BII 7RHW 10.5, I'd say go for it.

But that has yet to happen...

We have open minds, but they are also informed by many years of experience, doing this everyday.

ttf_Bassmentbone · Post by **ttf_Bassmentbone** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:21 am

Quote from: griffinben on Jun 04, 2015, 06:44AMHopefully you will indulge me as I expand on this.

When an individual is purchasing and instrument for themselves they only need to satisfy one person. There can be all kinds of motivations and priorities for that person that may differ from yours or mine. That person will not be satisfied until that criteria are met.

I will always give my honest and most informed opinion to anyone; if I have concerns I will raise them. But I also take into account that the customer is buying the horn and lives with it from that day forth, not me.

So, yeah: whatever they want to buy.

Ben

Many thanks Ben.

ttf_Euphoni · Post by **ttf_Euphoni** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:27 am

Quote from: Bassmentbone on Jun 03, 2015, 05:36PMLet me throw a couple more questions at Ben.

Disclaimer: A person who knows very well what sound and feel they want with no preconceived notions will probably fair better than those who may have a bias. But, fact is, some of us do have a bias. So Ben...

1) What if someone had a particulat attatchment to Yellow brass. They just feel at home on it, yet, they are looking for a sound more readily found on gold or red brass. What would you do?

Also, do asthetics play a role in the process? Say someone really likes the look of a gold brass bell, but wants the sound readily found on yellow brass.

Thanks in advance

I was actually very interested in this question too and was hoping for a more specific answer.

I know every horn is particular to the parts and player, but there are definitely some commonalities with the way different parts work with the higher coppered bells, right?

If one wants (or already owns) a gold or red bell in their set up because they like the look or love the sound, but they also like some of the present/responsive/bright characteristics of a yellow bell, without putting a yellow bell on the horn, which parts, with which metals, would make the biggest difference in sound so your red or gold brass bell might sound more like a yellow bell?

Lead pipes and tuning slides immediately come to my mind. Is this where a sterling silver or long lead pipe would come in handy?

Thanks guys.

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:48 am

Look...I'm going to be a little less politic than Ben because I don't work there anymore...

Aesthetics are not unimportant, but if your first concern is that you like the color, then that's a clear indication of what your priorities are.

That's not a bad thing or a good thing, it's just a thing. And as Ben says, you work with every customer to find the instrument that reflects his or her priorities.

When I was working there we had a long-time customer bring in his friend, who was an amateur jazz trombonist. He tried a few things, liked the basic way the instruments played, and then said to me: "I want a big red bell."

The 8 inch small bore bell he'd been playing on a .500 slide was not nearly big enough, so we went to an 8.5 inch large bore tenor bell with a .508-.525 gold brass slide that had been kicking around the showroom for a while. That was closer, but he still wanted something bigger. So we found a gooseneck to make a straight bass trombone and put a big red bass trombone bell on the .508-.525 gold brass slide.

He was thrilled. And you know what? It sounded pretty damn cool. Not like any other trombone I'd ever heard, not like any trombone anybody he might play with would have, but pretty damn cool. And he walked away completely happy.

So...to answer your question...a yellow bell is a yellow bell is a yellow bell, and it has response characteristics that you simply will not get with a gold or red brass bell. You can balance things with nickel and yellow brass elsewhere in the horn to get close, but you always have that big sheet of higher copper material at the end of the system that will simply behave the way it behaves.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:28 am

I hope this is an OK place to ask this question! In order to beat anyone who remembers it to the post - I did in fact make waves in the past by suggesting that not every college student would benefit from going out and buying a boutique horn while they were just beginning their studies (and I did it in a not so savvy way). So, sorry about being un-savvy. I still stand by what I had said, and yes, I'm planning on checking out the Shires product line.

I am planning on going to the Boston area specifically to check out Shires trombones after a tour in Korea - so, perhaps in the summer of 2017. I want to walk away with a horn that can surpass my aging (ie, wearing out from a decade of heavy use) Conn 88HTCL. I guess it'd be cool to know the etiquette for visiting the shop. Should I go in with a preconception of what I want, or is the Shires crew better suited to just show me what they have and make suggestions?

My preconception: I think that I would love a Shires set up with a 2RVET7 bell, either a T47 or TW47 (not Bach/Bass crook) slide, and the Tru-Bore valve (I'm already a CL2000 fan, and they're sort of similar...?). The other details (tuning slide, slide material, etc) I'd leave up to the crew to suggest. I realize that it's not going to be an 88H. I'm hoping that it'll blow my 88H out of the water. I've played on several Shires when I've had the chance and I've loved all of them for different reasons. I also think that the VE leadpipe would be great, along with whatever the most common medium leadpipe is that Shires sells and the 3GL (I heard it's like the Alessi leadpipe).

Now, the real reason for this post: Should I go in with this preconception? Should I already count out the Bach-style slide based on my prejudices against very wide handslides? I was thinking that going in with my preconception above as a starting point and testing that against my 88H, and other "common-setup" models at the factory would get me close to where I want to be in a day.

How many days does the average customer take to play-test? I'm assuming I'll have only 2 or 3 days in the area to get it right. Is this realistic? Too much time?

I'd be perfectly happy to go in expecting to walk out with a 2RVET7 - T47 - TRUBORE and wind up falling in love with some other completely different set up that plays perfectly instead. I just want a good strategy to maximize my time and make the most of the Shires crew's time.

summary of questions:
1. What do I do when I get to Boston - what's the etiquette?
2. Preconception as a starting point, or let the brains show me the way?
3. Playtest preconception "dream-model" against my current horn AND the common models that shires sells?
4. How long should I take to try stuff out?
5. Do you get any three leadpipes that you want with a full horn purchase, or just the standard 1, 2, 3?
5. Any tips on a strategy for making the most of my visit?

Thanks!

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:29 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jun 04, 2015, 10:28AMI hope this is an OK place to ask this question! In order to beat anyone who remembers it to the post - I did in fact make waves in the past by suggesting that not every college student would benefit from going out and buying a boutique horn while they were just beginning their studies (and I did it in a not so savvy way). So, sorry about being un-savvy. I still stand by what I had said, and yes, I'm planning on checking out the Shires product line.

I am planning on going to the Boston area specifically to check out Shires trombones after a tour in Korea - so, perhaps in the summer of 2017. I want to walk away with a horn that can surpass my aging (ie, wearing out from a decade of heavy use) Conn 88HTCL. I guess it'd be cool to know the etiquette for visiting the shop. Should I go in with a preconception of what I want, or is the Shires crew better suited to just show me what they have and make suggestions?

My preconception: I think that I would love a Shires set up with a 2RVET7 bell, either a T47 or TW47 (not Bach/Bass crook) slide, and the Tru-Bore valve (I'm already a CL2000 fan, and they're sort of similar...?). The other details (tuning slide, slide material, etc) I'd leave up to the crew to suggest. I realize that it's not going to be an 88H. I'm hoping that it'll blow my 88H out of the water. I've played on several Shires when I've had the chance and I've loved all of them for different reasons. I also think that the VE leadpipe would be great, along with whatever the most common medium leadpipe is that Shires sells and the 3GL (I heard it's like the Alessi leadpipe).

Now, the real reason for this post: Should I go in with this preconception? Should I already count out the Bach-style slide based on my prejudices against very wide handslides? I was thinking that going in with my preconception above as a starting point and testing that against my 88H, and other "common-setup" models at the factory would get me close to where I want to be in a day.

How many days does the average customer take to play-test? I'm assuming I'll have only 2 or 3 days in the area to get it right. Is this realistic? Too much time?

I'd be perfectly happy to go in expecting to walk out with a 2RVET7 - T47 - TRUBORE and wind up falling in love with some other completely different set up that plays perfectly instead. I just want a good strategy to maximize my time and make the most of the Shires crew's time.

summary of questions:
1. What do I do when I get to Boston - what's the etiquette?
2. Preconception as a starting point, or let the brains show me the way?
3. Playtest preconception "dream-model" against my current horn AND the common models that shires sells?
4. How long should I take to try stuff out?
5. Do you get any three leadpipes that you want with a full horn purchase, or just the standard 1, 2, 3?
5. Any tips on a strategy for making the most of my visit?

Thanks!

This is absolutely an okay place to put these questions, and they are very good questions, indeed.

First of all, you'll want to make an appointment with us at the factory for a given day and time. This will guaranty that we'll have the right resources to suit the needs of your appointment and/or be able to advise you if we do not. Bring your current instrument and mouthpiece (I'm not joking, I've regularly had appointments that a customer did not bring his/her mouthpiece. Having your current instrument gives a basis of comparison. It's the "control" instrument).

I've adopted the practice of not telling anyone what parts I'm swapping in and out and I don't tell them why I'm doing it. (I let the customer know this before we start). The only real feedback I'm looking for is how does it sound and feel. We'll continue in this manner until we hit upon the right combination, which we'll probably move away from and back to a couple of times to be extra sure. When it's all over, I'll review everything we did and why. If there are any questions (then or later) I'll answer them. If we didn't hit a specific combination the customer wanted to try, I'll put it together for them if I can. 99% they have no doubt the other horn we picked out is the one.

Where we start is based on a variety of factors: what you currently play, what feedback you give me about what you want, what you sound like on your current set-up. The important thing to remember is that it is only a starting point, no matter how good or bad it feels. All of the feedback from back and forth gives me the information I need to guide you down the path.

Generally the process takes 1-2 hours. Much depends on the consistency of the player. Both perception and performance.

The most important notion one should be armed with is a general (or specific) idea of what sort of sound and feel they are looking for. NOT specific components. (Unless, as mentioned before, one will only be satisfied with those components regardless of other factors. At which point, it's a much shorter appointment). Specifics will matter more to the professional working in specific environments than to people wanting a generally good trombone, but a generic idea will help everyone. Bigger/smaller/more open/more focused feel than their current horn. Brighter/darker/warmer/more brilliant/more articulate/fuzzier/etc./etc.etc. You don't necessarily need words to describe it, but have a general sonic idea in your head. People without this idea will generally spend the bulk of their energies trying to decide that during the process, which can get pretty confusing in the middle of everything, not to mention spend brain cells and chops in the process.

An open mind goes a long way to achieving a sonic goal.

Our trombone slides come with three leadpipes in either yellow brass, gold brass, or nickel. Be prepared that 95% of folks opt for yellow brass. Sterling pipes can be ordered as a separate item. I will generally have recommendations based on the appointment results.

How to make the most of your visit to Shires? As mentioned above: Come in good playing shape. Have a good idea of what you want to sound like and an open mind as to what components might help you get there. Bring your horn and mouthpiece to act as a control group. And have fun!

How to enjoy Boston? I recommend a trip to Fenway park.

I hope that helps.

Ben

ttf_BassBoneFL · Post by **ttf_BassBoneFL** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:47 am

Quote from: griffinben on Jun 04, 2015, 11:29AMHow to enjoy Boston? I recommend a Strip to Fenway park.

Dr Freud, your 12 o'clock appt is here.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:51 am

Quote from: griffinben on Jun 04, 2015, 11:29AM...
How to enjoy Boston? I recommend a trip to Fenway park.

I hope that helps.

Ben

Especially when the Red Sox aren't there

(they've been AWFUL this year).

There's lots more to do in Boston, depending on what you are interested in, though. Great museums, great music (at Symphony and Jordan Halls for starters; or the Berklee Jazz Center). In September we have the Patriots and through the winter we have the Celtics and the Bruins.

Post a note in the Chit-Chat when you are ready to come and we can look around for you.

Ben, that's a great suggestion on getting the most from a visit to Shires (or to anywhere to test trombones, for that matter). If you don't know what you need from the new horn, how can you figure out it's better?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:11 pm

Quote from: BassBoneFL on Jun 04, 2015, 11:47AMDr Freud, your 12 o'clock appt is here.

Modified for the protection of others.

I'll be staying away from Fenway while you're up here, Harold. You may visit with no fear...

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:02 pm

Thanks for the fast reply! I figured as much for most of the answers, but it's nice to see it from the guy who knows. Seems like it takes a lot less time than I thought. I'm thinking that the Brad Edwards lip slur book, my favorite solo, and the standard maintenance studies I do every day are the materials that would help the most when doing comparisons?

I'm a Belchertown, MA native so I know all about Boston. Probably will visit the aquarium haha!!

As for leadpipes: I get that silver costs more (probably don't want that anyway), but does a full trombone purchase include ANY 3 leadpipes (in normal materials) or do I only get a 1, 2, and 3 in yellow brass? Say, for example, I want a 2, a VE, and a 3GL (hypothetical)

ttf_jennconducts · Post by **ttf_jennconducts** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:10 pm

Thank you, Ben, for doing this. It's a great service. I love your instruments very much.

I have what I'm sure is a silly question: Do the tenor valve sections fit on the bass bells, thereby, when paired with a bass slide, creating a single valve bass trombone?

Thanks in advance!

ttf_Bassmentbone · Post by **ttf_Bassmentbone** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:32 am

I feel like I have my thoughts in order and am willing to put this down here even though there is a chance I'll get the "high schooler" speach. (To just play anything and not get a Shires)

Ben, while we spoke via email you recommended to me a BII 7Y A5 bell as my first choice and a 7G as a second.

I recently got together with some people I know and we tried each others horns (and I think some of those people borrowed horns from people they know...generous world)

With a set of Shires Axials, my Bach 50 slide with press fit MV50 leadpipe and a BYC tuning slide, I played around with different bells. With my sound concepts in mind, here is what I found:

Gold brass and red brass did not work for me. I was not biased against them until I played several of each (7G, 1G, 1GT7, 7GM, 7GLW, 1R, 2R, 2RLW)

They were great at the mezzos, but too dark in the softs and too bright in the louds AND they lacked the clarity and crisp pure sound I love from yellow bells...generally speaking.

As far as weights went, for me the worst bells were the LW. Easy response? NO! Much too much work to hit the note right and way too responsive. M were ok, but didnt have it in the louds.

I did get a chance to try a BII 7Y A5. I must say, it was very nice. I also tried a 7Y, but liked the A5 better.

The best bell I played that day was a 1YHW. I should mention I played all the bells without knowing what they were.

At first, I wasnt a huge fan. But as I kept playing, it did a very nice job for me and my sound characteristics. However, I prefered the blending, articulation and additional colour I got from any 7 bell and was really happy with the A5.

(No one is going to believe me here) With my thoughts on those bells, would my friends idealistic set up maybe actually be my ticket? BII 7YHW A5?

ttf_elmsandr · Post by **ttf_elmsandr** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:29 am

Quote from: jennconducts on Jun 04, 2015, 02:10PMThank you, Ben, for doing this. It's a great service. I love your instruments very much.

I have what I'm sure is a silly question: Do the tenor valve sections fit on the bass bells, thereby, when paired with a bass slide, creating a single valve bass trombone?

Thanks in advance!
No.

A tenor valve and a bass valve are different things. For amusement, look at the trubore sections, the tenor and bass are wrapped slightly differently. And yes, they do have single basses, I have a very nice single trubore section. Now I just need to get a double on that. (Anybody have a dependent trubore section they don't want?)

Cheers,
Andy

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:50 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jun 04, 2015, 01:02PMThanks for the fast reply! I figured as much for most of the answers, but it's nice to see it from the guy who knows. Seems like it takes a lot less time than I thought. I'm thinking that the Brad Edwards lip slur book, my favorite solo, and the standard maintenance studies I do every day are the materials that would help the most when doing comparisons?

I'm a Belchertown, MA native so I know all about Boston. Probably will visit the aquarium haha!!

As for leadpipes: I get that silver costs more (probably don't want that anyway), but does a full trombone purchase include ANY 3 leadpipes (in normal materials) or do I only get a 1, 2, and 3 in yellow brass? Say, for example, I want a 2, a VE, and a 3GL (hypothetical)

You are the best judge of what materials (music) you would like to use to test an instrument. These are materials that will tell you a lot (hopefully). I usually like to hear things that include different ranges, articulations, and dynamics. I may ask for something more specific based on what I feel I need to hear for the situation/equipment combo.

Yes, you can get any three leadpipes from standard materials you like. We'll probably have some guidance on that.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:59 am

Quote from: jennconducts on Jun 04, 2015, 02:10PMThank you, Ben, for doing this. It's a great service. I love your instruments very much.

I have what I'm sure is a silly question: Do the tenor valve sections fit on the bass bells, thereby, when paired with a bass slide, creating a single valve bass trombone?

Thanks in advance!

The valve will fit but the tuning slide will not.

The spacing between bass an tuning slides are different (i.e. between the neckpipe and bell top) and the bore sizes of the bass and tenor neckpipes and bell top are very different. We've experimented with tenor to bass tuning slides based on existing materials but the results yielded...interesting... harmonic alignment. To truly do it right we would need a bespoke design and there has not been enough demand to warrant the expense of development.

I should note that we do offer a single valve bass option in any of our valves.

-Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:11 am

Quote from: Bassmentbone on Jun 05, 2015, 03:32AMI feel like I have my thoughts in order and am willing to put this down here even though there is a chance I'll get the "high schooler" speach. (To just play anything and not get a Shires)

Ben, while we spoke via email you recommended to me a BII 7Y A5 bell as my first choice and a 7G as a second.

I recently got together with some people I know and we tried each others horns (and I think some of those people borrowed horns from people they know...generous world)

With a set of Shires Axials, my Bach 50 slide with press fit MV50 leadpipe and a BYC tuning slide, I played around with different bells. With my sound concepts in mind, here is what I found:

Gold brass and red brass did not work for me. I was not biased against them until I played several of each (7G, 1G, 1GT7, 7GM, 7GLW, 1R, 2R, 2RLW)

They were great at the mezzos, but too dark in the softs and too bright in the louds AND they lacked the clarity and crisp pure sound I love from yellow bells...generally speaking.

As far as weights went, for me the worst bells were the LW. Easy response? NO! Much too much work to hit the note right and way too responsive. M were ok, but didnt have it in the louds.

I did get a chance to try a BII 7Y A5. I must say, it was very nice. I also tried a 7Y, but liked the A5 better.

The best bell I played that day was a 1YHW. I should mention I played all the bells without knowing what they were.

At first, I wasnt a huge fan. But as I kept playing, it did a very nice job for me and my sound characteristics. However, I prefered the blending, articulation and additional colour I got from any 7 bell and was really happy with the A5.

(No one is going to believe me here) With my thoughts on those bells, would my friends idealistic set up maybe actually be my ticket? BII 7YHW A5?

What I read here is that there are there are a lot of variables that are different than we would explore in an appointment. I would continue to recommend a more "middle of the road" instrument for you if you were looking to purchase while you are still in high school (I consider the BII 1Y A5 more middle of the road than the BII 1YHW).

If you are looking at buying a complete trombone, I would also recommend either getting to the factory or a festival where you could try a variety of components. The cost of a plane ticket & hotel pale in comparison to the price of the instrument. And you would have the benefit of exploring all options in a guided environment.

I hope that helps,

Ben

ttf_Bassmentbone · Post by **ttf_Bassmentbone** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:50 am

Quote from: griffinben on Jun 05, 2015, 07:11AMWhat I read here is that there are there are a lot of variables that are different than we would explore in an appointment. I would continue to recommend a more "middle of the road" instrument for you if you were looking to purchase while you are still in high school (I consider the BII 1Y A5 more middle of the road than the BII 1YHW).

If you are looking at buying a complete trombone, I would also recommend either getting to the factory or a festival where you could try a variety of components. The cost of a plane ticket & hotel pale in comparison to the price of the instrument. And you would have the benefit of exploring all options in a guided environment.

I hope that helps,

Ben

Thank you sir!

Tuning slides have a component name such as BYC if I am correct. What would the name/number be for the bollinger tuning slide?

ttf_trombone addict · Post by **ttf_trombone addict** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:12 am

Any plans for a rotary bass trumpet in the distant future?

ttf_Euphoni · Post by **ttf_Euphoni** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:57 am

Any idea what the "R" engraved on the inside and outside of my dual bore rotor means?

Thanks.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:11 am

Quote from: trombone addict on Jun 05, 2015, 09:12AMAny plans for a rotary bass trumpet in the distant future?

Distant plans remain beyond our realm of sight.

As fun as it would be to make one, I wouldn't wait for it.

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:12 am

Quote from: Euphoni on Jun 05, 2015, 09:57AMAny idea what the "R" engraved on the inside and outside of my dual bore rotor means?

Thanks.

Could you send me a picture?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:12 am

Quote from: Bassmentbone on Jun 05, 2015, 07:50AMThank you sir!

Tuning slides have a component name such as BYC if I am correct. What would the name/number be for the bollinger tuning slide?

They are stamped BB ("B"lair "B"ollinger). If you say Bollinger tuning slide everyone will know what you are talking about.

ttf_Bassmentbone · Post by **ttf_Bassmentbone** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:32 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Jun 05, 2015, 11:12AMThey are stamped BB ("B"lair "B"ollinger). If you say Bollinger tuning slide everyone will know what you are talking about.

Is it availible in gold brass...custom of course?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:42 pm

Hi

What is the closest Shires Horn to an Olds Super?

I am looking for something nickel silver with a red brass bell.

.485/.500 bore hand slide

Does shires make something similar to the tone ring found on the Olds?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:18 am

Quote from: slidemasterc on Jun 05, 2015, 08:42PMHi

What is the closest Shires Horn to an Olds Super?

I am looking for something nickel silver with a red brass bell.

.485/.500 bore hand slide

Does shires make something similar to the tone ring found on the Olds?

Before I get into spec'ing this out, I should note that even the closest Shires et-up will be very different than the Olds. There's just SO MUCH that goes into it beyond bore and bell size and materials. The braces, the width, the tapers, what techniques they used in manufacturing....not to mention: Which Olds Super? There's a lot of variation. I'll approach this as a Shires that would best capture the spirit of the Olds.

Bell: S1GM 7.5 w/nickel neckpipe
Tuning Slide: SY 1.5
Slide: T85-95NLWYC

You'll note the specs are a bit different, particularly the slide and the bell. I think 7.5 is a good bell diameter. Red brass on small bores can get tricky (I know, I had one specially made for me). I think the gold brass is closer to what Olds used on the super and will sound and respond more like it. For the slide, our stuff generally sounds and feels broader than what bore size would indicate, so I stuck with a smaller size for the second bore. I also think standard weight nickel slides on small bores can feel rigid and inflexible on our horns, lightweight is definitely the way to go. The yellow crook balances the nickel neckpipe.

I don't think we make an instrument that will ever be as compact sounding and feeling as the Super so I went with something similar in spirit that I think would sound and feel really good. Part of this is just knowing what combinations of parts work from lots of experience dealing with these horns. This would be a custom horn.

I hope that helps.

Ben

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:50 pm

I wanted to wait until Ben had answered the question before I weighed in on this....

Asking Shires to "build me a horn like a Super" is like asking Ford to "build me a car like a '71 Barracuda". Ford builds new Mustangs, not old Barracudas. If you really want a '71 Barracuda, that's what you'll have to buy - and live with issues of driving a car that's over 40 years old. If, on the other hand, you want a modern car that gives you a lot of the same feelings (Ben used the term "spirit") you'd get from the 'Cuda, then a Mustang might be just the ticket.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:17 pm

Quote from: JohnL on Jun 08, 2015, 12:50PMI wanted to wait until Ben had answered the question before I weighed in on this....

Asking Shires to "build me a horn like a Super" is like asking Ford to "build me a car like a '71 Barracuda". Ford builds new Mustangs, not old Barracudas. If you really want a '71 Barracuda, that's what you'll have to buy - and live with issues of driving a car that's over 40 years old. If, on the other hand, you want a modern car that gives you a lot of the same feelings (Ben used the term "spirit") you'd get from the 'Cuda, then a Mustang might be just the ticket.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:12 am

I'm looking to buy a shires somewhere this or next week. I'll be going to musik Bertram in Freiburg to try them out.
Can anyone recommend me some good setups? I'm looking for something medium/light, good for solo play. Definitely a red/gold brass bell.
I imagine my tone color as a rosé wine, so I'm looking for something with a warm sound.

ttf_Bassmentbone · Post by **ttf_Bassmentbone** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:12 am

Quote from: Cvixx on Jun 09, 2015, 02:12AMI'm looking to buy a shires somewhere this or next week. I'll be going to musik Bertram in Freiburg to try them out.
Can anyone recommend me some good setups? I'm looking for something medium/light, good for solo play. Definitely a red/gold brass bell.
I imagine my tone color as a rosé wine, so I'm looking for something with a warm sound.

Do you play tenor or bass?

ttf_Cvixx · Post by **ttf_Cvixx** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:27 am

Tenor. My current trombone is a Bach 42G.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:23 am

Quote from: Cvixx on Jun 09, 2015, 02:12AMI'm looking to buy a shires somewhere this or next week. I'll be going to musik Bertram in Freiburg to try them out.
Can anyone recommend me some good setups? I'm looking for something medium/light, good for solo play. Definitely a red/gold brass bell.
I imagine my tone color as a rosé wine, so I'm looking for something with a warm sound.

Musik Bertram is one of the best stocked dealers in the world with a terrific staff. They will more than adequately be able to guide you through the process. We can give many recommendations here, but there is no substitute for trying many set-ups in person with a knowledgeable staff.

I would concentrate on trying to define your ideal tone color both in your mind's ear and in less subjective terms. This will keep you focused on what sound you are after as well as being able to better communicate your wants in words to the staff.

Enjoy the process, I look forward to hearing what you come up with.

Ben

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:21 am

Quote from: griffinben on Jun 09, 2015, 07:23AM
---snip---

I would concentrate on trying to define your ideal tone color both in your mind's ear and in less subjective terms. This will keep you focused on what sound you are after as well as being able to better communicate your wants in words to the staff.

---snip---
Ben is right on the money. Timbre is the key. Find the basic sound that you want...which is mostly a matter of bell alloy/weight/size and slide alloy/weight/bore...and then fine tune the attacks, resistances, articulation, projection, flexibility, focus etc. w/leadpipes, crooks and valves systems if applicable. That's what I have learned from assembling 5 Shires horns for particular uses.

Also...beware the "practice room" syndrome. The only way that I have really finalized any of these horns has been playing music in the situations for which I put them together. If you can afford it and/or the music store will give you a couple of weeks to decide, go home with at least several leadpipes and tuning slides. A couple of bells wouldn't hurt either. The proof is in the performance.

Good luck...

S.

P.S. When in doubt, choose the equipment that makes you want to play most musically. Also...do blindfold tests. Fool yourself into the real deal. The mind can play funny tricks. I cannot tell you how many times I have thought something like "Definitely a red/gold brass bell"...or any other preconception...only to realize through blindfold tests that another choice gave me what I wanted.

ttf_Tromborinha · Post by **ttf_Tromborinha** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:48 am

Quote from: Cvixx on Jun 09, 2015, 02:12AMI'm looking to buy a shires somewhere this or next week. I'll be going to musik Bertram in Freiburg to try them out.
Can anyone recommend me some good setups? I'm looking for something medium/light, good for solo play. Definitely a red/gold brass bell.
I imagine my tone color as a rosé wine, so I'm looking for something with a warm sound.

Hi Cvixx,
Ben's right, last summer I went for 2 days to Musik Bertram to assemble my new Shires. I changed from a Bach LT42BG and the people there know very much about the specs of the different Shires Parts and can give very good tips. There you have enough time and a wide choice to try what's your favorite horn. My new trombone is very different from the perceptions I had, but I like it very much! Trust them and take time enough to hear what's suitable to you. Enjoy!

ttf_ntap · Post by **ttf_ntap** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:04 am

Quote from: sabutin on Jun 09, 2015, 08:21AMBen is right on the money. Timbre is the key. Find the basic sound that you want...which is mostly a matter of bell alloy/weight/size and slide alloy/weight/bore...and then fine tune the attacks, resistances, articulation, projection, flexibility, focus etc. w/leadpipes, crooks and valves systems if applicable. That's what I have learned from assembling 5 Shires horns for particular uses.

Also...beware the "practice room" syndrome. The only way that I have really finalized any of these horns has been playing music in the situations for which I put them together. If you can afford it and/or the music store will give you a couple of weeks to decide, go home with at least several leadpipes and tuning slides. A couple of bells wouldn't hurt either. The proof is in the performance.

Good luck...

S.

P.S. When in doubt, choose the equipment that makes you want to play most musically. Also...do blindfold tests. Fool yourself into the real deal. The mind can play funny tricks. I cannot tell you how many times I have thought something like "Definitely a red/gold brass bell"...or any other preconception...only to realize through blindfold tests that another choice gave me what I wanted.

A bit off topic from this Shires-centered post, but beneficial to the larger conversation, maybe:
When choosing new equipment, I have heard that it's best to stick with something for 3+ months (I was told through students of Laurie Frink that she said if you make an equipment change, be prepared to keep it that way for 6 months). However, I also feel I'll know within a few days or a week of practicing/playing gigs if I like something or not. I think I tend to make changes in equipment a little too quickly if I feel something isn't going to work, but essentially when trying out a horn, you only have a few days, maybe weeks (maybe only hours!) to know if something's going to work out for (hopefully) a lifetime.

Would love to hear opinions....Ben and Sam? Great discussion.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:53 am

Quote from: ntap on Jun 09, 2015, 09:04AM
A bit off topic from this Shires-centered post, but beneficial to the larger conversation, maybe:
When choosing new equipment, I have heard that it's best to stick with something for 3+ months (I was told through students of Laurie Frink that she said if you make an equipment change, be prepared to keep it that way for 6 months). However, I also feel I'll know within a few days or a week of practicing/playing gigs if I like something or not. I think I tend to make changes in equipment a little too quickly if I feel something isn't going to work, but essentially when trying out a horn, you only have a few days, maybe weeks (maybe only hours!) to know if something's going to work out for (hopefully) a lifetime.

Would love to hear opinions....Ben and Sam? Great discussion.

Two points, one of which I won't spend a lot of time with because it's what Sam and I have been discussing at length regarding having a sound in your "mind's ear". Sam is right on the money about it being right for performance. Too often we get horns that sound great in the practice room and not on the gig. The gig is where you work.

The second point is what do you do when your "mind's ear" leads you to something different than what you are comfortable with. This is a harder mental game.

This can lead us to dismiss equipment quickly, often based on comfort and feel. Sometimes we need to do something different behind the bell to achieve the desired results. This can be a result of playing different equipment (equipment that forces us to play it a certain way) or can drive equipment choices (I'm now doing this different and need something to facilitate this).

I believe this is closer to the "you have to play it for 6 months" idea and ideal. So you can really get into both the physical and aesthetic qualities of what you are trying to achieve. Which may be different than anything you've done before. This can be frustrating, to put it mildly, but if it ultimately yields the results you want, then there you jolly well are.

Some instruments are immediately comfortable. This usually falls into the camp where someone has a clear idea of sound and physical approach and they are simply refining that idea. Or they just want a generally "good sound" and "good feel" and are less worried about specific nuances. These are easy appointments, and easy to find a horn/mouthpiece that suits the player.

Hopefully you/we can make this distinction prior to trying out equipment.

Ben

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:24 pm

Quote from: ntap on Jun 09, 2015, 09:04AM
A bit off topic from this Shires-centered post, but beneficial to the larger conversation, maybe:
When choosing new equipment, I have heard that it's best to stick with something for 3+ months (I was told through students of Laurie Frink that she said if you make an equipment change, be prepared to keep it that way for 6 months). However, I also feel I'll know within a few days or a week of practicing/playing gigs if I like something or not. I think I tend to make changes in equipment a little too quickly if I feel something isn't going to work, but essentially when trying out a horn, you only have a few days, maybe weeks (maybe only hours!) to know if something's going to work out for (hopefully) a lifetime.

Would love to hear opinions....Ben and Sam? Great discussion.

Economics enter here. And time as well because as they say, time is money. Given total freedom to experiment I suppose that all talented players could come up "the perfect" equipment. But there is no total freedom. Even the richest trombonist in the world has to buckle down and prove the pudding in performance. If it fails...especially if his various attempts continue to fail...eventually that player is going to be replaced by someone whose choices are overall more successful.

So it goes.

Y'pays yer money and y'takes yer chances. Take too long? You lose. Rush it and fail? You lose again. Juuuusssst right? With any luck...you win.

Life on the free market.

Bet on it.

S.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:23 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Jul 17, 2014, 07:39AM

For what its worth, you can order a Morandini with a standard wrap axial valve too, which is similar but not exactly the same as the set-up listed above.

-Ben

On the flip side, can you build a custom horn around the Morandini axial?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:49 pm

Quote from: CSO on Jun 10, 2015, 12:23PMOn the flip side, can you build a custom horn around the Morandini axial?

You can build a custom horn with the Morandini wrap on an valve. However I would advise against it unless you have tried one and made sure it fits your hand.

Ben

ttf_Cvixx · Post by **ttf_Cvixx** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:37 pm

Wow guys, you were right on point with your answers. Those are actually the answers i was looking for. I opened a thread a few days ago, about buying a new trombone, and I asked for advice on, how to pick the right combination, but I didn't get any sufficient answers regarding that question. You guys told me exactly that, without me even asking

I will go to musik Bertram next week, and I'll tell you when I pick something. I do not have the finances to change horns often, but at least I know exactly what I'm looking for, so hopefully I'll find a horn that suits me, at least for the next 4 years, until I get my masters degree at the music academy

ttf_Duffle · Post by **ttf_Duffle** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:36 am

Ben, can you tell us a little about the Shires 'London Model'. Specs, how it came about, is it available everywhere and why is it not on the website? Thanks...........

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:55 am

Quote from: Duffle on Jun 23, 2015, 02:36AMBen, can you tell us a little about the Shires 'London Model'. Specs, how it came about, is it available everywhere and why is it not on the website? Thanks...........

"London Model" is not an official model (yet?) but easy shorthand for us to be able to identify it quickly and easily in house. It was/essential our take on an Elkhart 88H, based on their popularity in the UK: 2RVE bell, Dual bore valve, T47 slide, TY tuning slide and...here's the kicker...fixed bell. I think it plays great.

The fixed bell actually does some great things. Response is a bit more immediate and the sound is a bit more free. I've noticed the same thing with out small bore trombones, which is why all of our small bores are fixed bell unless custom ordered otherwise.

We will do a fixed bell large or medium horn by special order, but it becomes a custom, non-returnable horn.

-Ben

ttf_BassBoneFL · Post by **ttf_BassBoneFL** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:18 pm

Hey Ben

Sorry I missed you yesterday at the factory. Steve, Sam and Jim were most hospitable in your absence. Was a fun visit. Valves are working like new, found a great leadpipe for my commercial set up, drove Sam crazy practicing all day, Gabe stopped by for some duets and Steve gave me some great beers for the trip home. All in all a great day.

Hope our paths cross soon.

H