TromboneChat

Jnoxon wrote: ↑Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:52 pm

greenbean wrote: ↑Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:59 am It seems Jnoxon was talking about the valve not being Holton, and BellEnd was talking about the valve wrap clearing being Holton.

So.. the valve was a Meinlschmidt and the wrap was Holton. Yes? Thank for clarifying...

The valve was Meinlschmidt and the wrap is very similar to the Conn not Holton.

Things are getting confusing now that we have pictures of two Williams 10s in the thread haha.

OPs horn clearly has a Holton wrap while the second horn posted is from a Conn 70h or 72h.

Also, something interesting to bring up is that means some Williams 10s have different bores going through the valve attachment tubing. That's kind of neat!

bellend wrote: ↑Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:13 am Actually, if you'd taken the trouble to read my post properly you would have seen I never said it was a Holton valve, I just said it could be.

However, what I said about the wrap being from a Holton is not an opinion....... it is a simple fact!
Any tech worth his salt who works customizing trombones of this era would know this at a glance, in fact now I've looked again I would be very surprised if the main bell stay is not also a Holton part.

Your very emphatic statement in a earlier post "Adapted Valve Section? This is a Meinlschmidt (sp) valve that Earl Williams used when this horn was made. Nothing "Adapted" nothing Holton!" is just plain wrong .

So...... either you don't really know what you're talking about , or for some reason are trying to deliberately mislead people.

What Ever.....

BellEnd

I have been around Williams horns all of my life. It was a phenomenal experience to be around that shop. I learned a whole lot about trombones. I was not there when this horn was made. But I spent the better part of 2 years hanging around and working to pay off about 1/2 of my first model 6. I have owned probable well over 50 Williams horns over the years. From the Wallace era to the end of Earls life. I know that Earl and Larry Minick used many Conn parts. Earl had a great relationship with Conn and F E Olds. If you think its a Holton valve and wrap whatever you entitled to your opinion. I never saw anything from Holton in the shop or have I seen it on any horn I've owned. So I guess I amazingly stupid and don't know anything about them and I do delight in lying to people about Williams Horns....... Just saying! You are entitled to you opinion!

Could it be so simple that the Holton wrap has been added at a later point and subsequently is not the original one?.... I am sitting here with a Holton E185 as we speak and i find the wrap to be totally identical from what i can see from the pictures..

Trond

My main bass is a Holton 169, and both valve and wrap look identical to the Williams. I remember reading on another forum that DeKarske for some time in the mid 60's played a Holton 169. Williams may not originally have sourced or used Holton parts, but since DeKarske had access to the Holton parts on his own, maybe he had the Williams custom modified at a later time?

Alf

I am of the same opinion as the last posters. DeKarske most likely put, or had fitted, a Holton valve wrap. I doubt it left Williams like that and I especially doubt that Williams put a Holton main bell brace (or stay as we call it over here) on, for that is unquestionably what it is.
John, nobody doubts your honesty or expertise on this thread, it's just that many of us know Holtons inside out and see what we see. With the history of the horn it is not a big leap to arrive at the replacement theory.
I have a modern 62H with indy valves made up from Conn parts by Larry Minick.... he died before that model came out and I built the valves into that horn.... after I am gone, someone might claim it is an early prototype that Larry built.... that would be fundamentally wrong, but it could look like that to some young player in 20 years time.... I'd better leave a card in the case.
One of my frankenbones came up on eBay a while back,totally wrongly described. I got in touch with the seller telling exactly what he was selling, but he refused to believe me. He got less for the horn than just the Shires valve section was worth.... sad, but you can only try. Lots of odd things happen to trombones over the years and we can often not be totally sure what have. One thing is sure, with a restoration by the two Johns, this horn will play very well whatever it contains.

Chris

I have played two Williams bass trombones in my life. Both were single valve horns that were all original. Both had a stock Conn 70H bass trombone valve and wrap. Both bells had 10" bell flares. The horn for sale looks like a 9 1/2in. two piece bell flare. The Williams Bass Trombones I played were like no other horn I have ever played. The sound was teutonic. I was really impressed by the instrument. I have been playing Holton 169 and 185's for over 30 years and if I am not mistaken that is a stock 185 or 169 rotor and valve section. From the wrap to the bracing, valve cap, bumper plate and screw. It's all Holton. When I talked to Larry Minick about Earl Williams, he couldn't say enough about him. He felt that Williams knew more than anyone else about building horns. I don't recall if the Williams bass trombones I played had one or two piece bells, but they definitely had 10" bell flares.

"So I guess I amazingly stupid and don't know anything about them "

In this instance .... YES!

I would be the first to concede I'm no expert on Willams horns as we don't see many this side of the pond but I have many years experience working along side the UK's most well know trombone maker / customizer and know what I'm saying here is correct.

How many more people here have to tell you?? it's a Holton wrap.

Here's another 10 ( at least that's what it was listed as) that has certainly been altered since it left the maestro's hands

BellEnd

Slide pic

With a Model 10 for sale on this site, it spawned a lot of interesting conversation. I thank John Noxon for his fascinating first-person insights as the keeper of the Williams flame. It seems strange to have piled all that info on the seller's ad posting, so I thought I'd lob up a few pictures of a Williams 10 valve here.

This isn't the one for sale. Different horn, with the "later" wrap style that was part of the conversation on the listing.

More...

Thanks for posting these!
Always very intersting to see the work of the great man.

Any chance you could post a couple of pics of the whole horn?

Also, how does it blow?

Any comparisons you could make to other makes Or not???



Thanks

BellEnd

Everytime i hear about someone talking about having tried a Williams gives me the impression that it is something really special.. Allthough Earl 's expertise is lost, the design of the horn should be possible to copy(except maybe the bell flare?)... I for one would be interested.. Ray Premru was very attached to his 169 but said that the best horn he ever tried was a 10... That should mean something..

Btw, Bellend.. Where did that horn end up?.. I remember having talks with the owner before he decided to sell.. If only i knew he was considering selling it... And had the dough...

I find it a beautiful horn to play. Very flexible up and down the range. Decidedly not stuffy. Slide in great condition. Very short throw on that trigger. I'll grab more pics of the assembled instrument later on. I don't have a lot of bass experience to compare it to other horns.

Hot damn that’s a beautiful horn!

Tbarh wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:02 pm Btw, Bellend.. Where did that horn end up?.. I remember having talks with the owner before he decided to sell.. If only i knew he was considering selling it... And had the dough...

It was listed on eBay and sold. No idea who got it.

JackSchatz wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:34 am I have played two Williams bass trombones in my life. Both were single valve horns that were all original. Both had a stock Conn 70H bass trombone valve and wrap. Both bells had 10" bell flares. The horn for sale looks like a 9 1/2in. two piece bell flare. The Williams Bass Trombones I played were like no other horn I have ever played. The sound was teutonic. I was really impressed by the instrument. I have been playing Holton 169 and 185's for over 30 years and if I am not mistaken that is a stock 185 or 169 rotor and valve section. From the wrap to the bracing, valve cap, bumper plate and screw. It's all Holton. When I talked to Larry Minick about Earl Williams, he couldn't say enough about him. He felt that Williams knew more than anyone else about building horns. I don't recall if the Williams bass trombones I played had one or two piece bells, but they definitely had 10" bell flares.

Correct. The horn has a 9.5” bell.

Hi all,

After all this new discussion/ life to this thread, I have decided to hold on to the horn. Reading all these posts has really sparked my enthusiasm again and I would like to learn as much as possible regarding the basses Earl made, especially with this one. With that being said, I’d like to thank everyone who has contributed their incredible insight and knowledge regarding these horns. It’s all greatly appreciated and I look forward to continuing the discussion with all of you.

If possible, could a mod please combine this thread with the newly made Williams 10 thread in the instruments section? I think it would be a great wealth of info to combine the two.

Mahalo,
Drew

Anyone have information of the leadpipe ? Big /open ,or ofset tighter to compliment the wide taper? As i said in the other thread: it should be made as a replica for more players to enjoy !

Trond

Could one of the mods fix the thread cut? The threads got a bit jumbled...

One of the things I like about Earl's work is that he did things differently -- often because it was better, but nearly as often ... because he could.

The trigger return spring isn't a rotary spring. It's not a coil. In fact, it isn't a spring at all. It's a slender metal bar, like a toothpick. One end is fixed to the chassis, and the other to the moving arm of the actuator. When you throw the valve, it twists this little rod. Let go, and the torsion returns it to position. I love the simple madness.

In that picture, your thumb rests on the little white ball and pushes it forward to actuate the valve. The lever turns a shaft inside that little brass tube to which it is attached. The outer end of that tube holds the torsion bar in a fixed position while the valve end of the bar twists with the action of the rotor arm, providing about a 70-degree flex on it. Just the right amount of tension to the touch, and it snaps right back when released.

Torsion bars! For a long time, MOPAR used torsion bar suspension on their cars (50's-70's), and these had a reputation for handling much better than leaf-sprung or even coil-sprung competitors.

Many armored vehicles use torsion bar suspensions.

A coil spring is just a torsion bar wrapped around itself.

paulyg wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:13 am Torsion bars! For a long time, MOPAR used torsion bar suspension on their cars (50's-70's), and these had a reputation for handling much better than leaf-sprung or even coil-sprung competitors.

They were also adjustable. Loved that old '71 Barracuda.

Signature curved grip and fluted slide brace.

Wacky curved water key, guaranteed not to snag on a mic cord.

The whole.

Wow! i have never seen such a valve mechanism! That's really interesting!

My great-grandfather had a vintage trombone; a great old axe.
When he died, my grandfather inherited the horn, replaced the slide, and played it for many more years before passing it down my father, who replaced the damaged bell. The horn has passed to me now. I have replaced the old tuning slide and the leadpipe. I can't express feeling of joy I get from knowing that I am playing my great-grandfather's axe.

Tbarh wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:58 am Everytime i hear about someone talking about having tried a Williams gives me the impression that it is something really special.. Allthough Earl 's expertise is lost, the design of the horn should be possible to copy(except maybe the bell flare?)... I for one would be interested.. Ray Premru was very attached to his 169 but said that the best horn he ever tried was a 10... That should mean something..

Dimensions can be copied; in fact, some of Earl's tooling is still around (not sure if the 10 tooling is among it). If you're willing to spend enough money, you could even duplicate the chemistry of the brass Earl used. But duplicating Earl's process?

People have been trying to duplicate Earl's work for decades. Some of them have produced some very nice horns that play quite well - but they're not quite the same.

"you could even duplicate the chemistry of the brass Earl used"

And what exactly is that fabled to be?? ............... from the Harry Potter foundry ???........

Given that the largest component on the basses was actually fabricated by Conn ( bell) and on at least one so was the slide or did they use 'magic metal' as well.

Cartridge is brass is BRASS FOR CARTRIDGES........... what are modern shells made from......Cartridge brass

If he bought old stock it was probably because it was cheap

Sorry to be the voice of skepticism but people get carried away with all this B.S.

Several years back I submitted the following question to The Copper Development Agency to try and establish if there was any factual evidence for the various rumors and stories that abound .



Below is the response to Case No. 167158

Your question was: Dear Sir / Madam, I am trombonist who has also been involved in the manufacture of brass instruments. Over the years have been told anecdotally on numerous occasions that the composition of Cartridge Brass changed around the period of the second world war and that instruments produced before this supposed change took place are Superior in tone to ones made after. I was wondering whether you could shed any light on this and tell me whether there actually was any change in the composition and or manufacturing process for this alloy at any point during the last century?

Yours faithfully,

A. Hutchinson

Response: Andy,

I have been involved in the US copper and brass industry for 48 years and am not aware of such a change ever being made. The deep drawing properties of Cartridge Brass is a function of the composition and the processing
in particular the penultimate anneal.

It is possible that the nominal composition 70/30 Cu/Zn was pushed to the high side for zinc in an attempt to conserve copper which was a critical metal during the war. The US penny in 1943 was minted as a zinc coated steel coin to conserve copper.

There are several histories on copper and brass, one by a note US metallurgist, Cyril Stanley Smith comes to mind. You could also check with the CDA affiliate in the UK at:

Copper Development Association
5 Grovelands Business Centre
Boundary Way
Hemel Hempstead
Herts HP2 7TE
UK
Phone: +44 (1442) 275 705
Fax +44 (1442) 275 716
E-mail: [email protected]

Angela Vessey,
Director

I will continue to search for information and if I find anything I'll get back to you.

Regards,
Lou Lozano
Metallurgical Consultant, CDA



Interesting what Mr Louzano sais about the zinc content may be beeing pushed to the high side to preserve copper. However given that the tolerance range for the alloy is quite tight at:


Chemical Composition for C26000
(%max., unless shown as range or min.)

Cu Fe Pb Zn
Min./Max. 68.5-71.5 .05 .07 Rem.
Nominal 70.0 - - 30.0

Note: Cu + Sum of Named Elements, 99.7% min.

Having the zinc content at the top figure can't change the workability of the alloy too much otherwise it would have become unsuitable for it's primary purpose......making cartridges.


Just sayin'

BellEnd

bellend wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:30 pm "you could even duplicate the chemistry of the brass Earl used"

And what exactly is that fabled to be?? ............... from the Harry Potter foundry ???........

I included that for the people that subscribe to the "magic metal" theory (I don't). That legend has Earl buying a big batch of war surplus cartridge brass. Being war production, it supposedly had more and/or different trace elements (impurities, if you prefer) than modern, commercially-produced brass.

Even though I know first hand just how much trouble one can get into when dealing with different batches (heats) of alloy that all meet the spec (I've got a great story about drawn tube for bicycle parts and manganese content), I don't personally subscribe to the "magic metal" theory. Beyond any questions of metallurgy, there's the simple fact that Earl built horns before WWII, and they're just as awesome as the ones he built after the war.

I an some X-ay Fluoescence for one of our regulars (Benn? Eric?) of samples of older tubing and newer tubing. The XRF would find trace metals down to a few tenths of a percent. There was no difference between the tubes.

Caveat: I couldn't analyze light metals so Beryllium or Aluminum would not show up.

[quote=bellend post_id=79715 time=1551727800 user_id=82]
"you could even duplicate the chemistry of the brass Earl used"

And what exactly is that fabled to be?? ............... from the Harry Potter foundry ???........

Given that the largest component on the basses was actually fabricated by Conn ( bell) and on at least one so was the slide or did they use 'magic metal' as well.

Cartridge is brass is BRASS FOR CARTRIDGES........... what are modern shells made from......Cartridge brass

If he bought old stock it was probably because it was cheap

Sorry to be the voice of skepticism but people get carried away with all this B.S.

Several years back I submitted the following question to The Copper Development Agency to try and establish if there was any factual evidence for the various rumors and stories that abound .



Below is the response to Case No. 167158

Your question was: Dear Sir / Madam, I am trombonist who has also been involved in the manufacture of brass instruments. Over the years have been told anecdotally on numerous occasions that the composition of Cartridge Brass changed around the period of the second world war and that instruments produced before this supposed change took place are Superior in tone to ones made after. I was wondering whether you could shed any light on this and tell me whether there actually was any change in the composition and or manufacturing process for this alloy at any point during the last century?

Yours faithfully,

A. Hutchinson

Response: Andy,

I have been involved in the US copper and brass industry for 48 years and am not aware of such a change ever being made. The deep drawing properties of Cartridge Brass is a function of the composition and the processing
in particular the penultimate anneal.

It is possible that the nominal composition 70/30 Cu/Zn was pushed to the high side for zinc in an attempt to conserve copper which was a critical metal during the war. The US penny in 1943 was minted as a zinc coated steel coin to conserve copper.

There are several histories on copper and brass, one by a note US metallurgist, Cyril Stanley Smith comes to mind. You could also check with the CDA affiliate in the UK at:

Copper Development Association
5 Grovelands Business Centre
Boundary Way
Hemel Hempstead
Herts HP2 7TE
UK
Phone: +44 (1442) 275 705
Fax +44 (1442) 275 716
E-mail: [email protected]

Angela Vessey,
Director

I will continue to search for information and if I find anything I'll get back to you.

Regards,
Lou Lozano
Metallurgical Consultant, CDA



Interesting what Mr Louzano sais about the zinc content may be beeing pushed to the high side to preserve copper. However given that the tolerance range for the alloy is quite tight at:


Chemical Composition for C26000
(%max., unless shown as range or min.)

Cu Fe Pb Zn
Min./Max. 68.5-71.5 .05 .07 Rem.
Nominal 70.0 - - 30.0

Note: Cu + Sum of Named Elements, 99.7% min.

Having the zinc content at the top figure can't change the workability of the alloy too much otherwise it would have become unsuitable for it's primary purpose......making cartridges.


Just sayin'

BellEnd

Andy!.. You are talking about cartridge brass only, but a lot of discussions about old Conn bells is about whether or not they used cartridge brass or another variant of Yellow brass.. I have heared the terms "french brass" and also "Conn brass" in similar discussions before.. All i know is that the bell of a 1934 Conn 70 H i used to own had a darker colour than the rest which looked more like standard Yellow brass (cartridge brass?).. Why would they use darker brass for the bell than the rest of the horn..?...

Conn used a lot of rose or red brass for bells. I know they used red brass on the 88Hs for a long time; probably on the basses as well.

I am not talking about red or gold brass.. This metal is more Brown-ish in colour.. Clearly different than both standard Yellow and Bach-style Gold brass.. The branch and valve tubing had the standard Yellow brass colour.. I am pretty certain of this..

Hi Tbarh,

I am not denying that there were maybe some alloys about that are not available today, just that cartridge brass is....... well cartridge brass.

I have seen that colour variation on an older Conn from memory a 70H ? but without actually getting some analysed it would be difficult to say for sure what it actually is.

I have made some bells from an alloy that was 80% copper 20% zinc that was designated as 'Low Brass' it could be something along those lines?

I'll have a look through my old notes and see if there's any more info.

BellEnd

Bellend

"Low brass" was also mentioned, yes!
Btw! Egger, the swiss periode brass instrument maker has in cooperation with Ian Bousfield among others made some replicas of old Heckel and J. C. Penzel romantic trombones and found a chinese foundry that could make the formula closest to the original.. The colour and appearance are very close to original Yellow cartridge brass.. It was apparently a very hard material to work with. I can send links if i find..

Hi again,

Had a quick look for my old notes but they must be in the attic somewhere as can't seem to lay my hands on them.

The Low Brass I mentioned above was being used by a company to make radiator caps for cars which is why we managed to get our hands on some.

I know we analysed a Conn outer slide leg to see what their P-27 alloy actually was and from memory found it was 85/15 gilding metal with the addition of 2% tin which would have the effect of making it much stronger. As far as I can recall the main commercial application for this alloy that was listed was for making fountain pen nibs.

The rolling mill that we used said you could have any formula of an old alloy re-made but the minimum quantity required would make it not economically viable for a small company, or a big one come to that!

FWIW

BellEnd

bellend wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:52 pm The rolling mill that we used said you could have any formula of an old alloy re-made but the minimum quantity required would make it not economically viable for a small company, or a big one come to that!

Yeah, you're talking a LOT of metal in a heat.

If what you want meets a standard spec but needs to be on the high or low end of specific elements, a supplier might be willing to let you sift through the analyses of whatever they have on hand to see if any particular heat will meet your needs. That's what we finally ended up doing with that bicycle tubing; we needed the Mn to be toward the high end in order to make mechanical properties.

Leanit wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:38 pm The whole.


IMG_5944.jpg

This is absolutely gorgeous. I sent you a PM looking for some info. Thanks!

To piggy-back what Chris said. I was most surprised when I was overhauling my 1935 Conn 70H to find "Made in Germany" stamped on the valve knuckle. Bach was also using German valves in New York and into Mt Vernon, I believe.

Leanit wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:31 pm Wacky curved water key, guaranteed not to snag on a mic cord.


IMG_5942.jpg

=====

Maybe it's been mentioned, but the rounded nickel bow means it was built by Earl's son, Bob Williams. That is my understanding. My model 6 is a Bob Williams. Love it!

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TheSheriff wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:28 am

Leanit wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:31 pm Wacky curved water key, guaranteed not to snag on a mic cord.


IMG_5942.jpg

=====

Maybe it's been mentioned, but the rounded nickel bow means it was built by Earl's son, Bob Williams. That is my understanding. My model 6 is a Bob Williams. Love it!

-------

That’s my understanding as well. Bob used the single radius tuning slides and slide crook while earl used dual radius. 1xxx horns were made by Earl while 3xxx were Bob.

I bought one of Drew’s Williams horns almost two years ago, a model 7.

I love the instrument. I have been curious because the horn has a serial # indicating it was made by Earl, but has the Nickel slide crook characteristic of Bob’s horns.

While it also has the F Attachment, it doesn’t have the “J bend” tuning mechanism. Has a normal tuning slide with one Williams brace attached.

I wonder if it started its life as an earl made Burbank 6, and later on it was converted to a trigger horn and had the nickel crook added? There are no cosmetic signs of the modifications, it looks very clean and well done.

Also nickel doesn’t oxidize as fast as yellow brass but the crook definitely looks “newer” than the outer slide tubes which have a bit of corrosion but still perform wonderfully.

Don’t know if we will ever know, but these horns are works of art and decades ahead of their time! Would love to try a model 10 one day!

RJMason wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:42 pm I bought one of Drew’s Williams horns almost two years ago, a model 7.

I love the instrument. I have been curious because the horn has a serial # indicating it was made by Earl, but has the Nickel slide crook characteristic of Bob’s horns.

While it also has the F Attachment, it doesn’t have the “J bend” tuning mechanism. Has a normal tuning slide with one Williams brace attached.

I wonder if it started its life as an earl made Burbank 6, and later on it was converted to a trigger horn and had the nickel crook added? There are no cosmetic signs of the modifications, it looks very clean and well done.

Also nickel doesn’t oxidize as fast as yellow brass but the crook definitely looks “newer” than the outer slide tubes which have a bit of corrosion but still perform wonderfully.

Don’t know if we will ever know, but these horns are works of art and decades ahead of their time! Would love to try a model 10 one day!

You know, I always wondered why that 7 was the way it is. I had a Bob 7 at the same time as that one and the Bob did not have that tuning slide brace. I can’t recall if the Bob 7 had a J bend or not. I wish the old forum were still available to us as I had posted quite a bit of photos of them. This is the only photo I could find from my library. The two 7s are the horns to the right of the photo.

TheSheriff wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:28 am

Leanit wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:31 pm Wacky curved water key, guaranteed not to snag on a mic cord.


IMG_5942.jpg

=====

Maybe it's been mentioned, but the rounded nickel bow means it was built by Earl's son, Bob Williams. That is my understanding. My model 6 is a Bob Williams. Love it!

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It seems as though Leanit’s horn is definitely an Earl built 10 judging from his serial #11xx. The 7 that Ray has also has a 11xx serial # so perhaps Earl used both styles.