Embouchure mechanics certificates?

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AndrewMeronek
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by AndrewMeronek »

Wilktone wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:20 pm Andrew, have you figured out what I'm driving at yet?
I've watched the whole set of videos (and, if memory serves, remember the original wasn't broken up), and I've gotten two lessons from Doug which included me grilling him a bit on these mechanics. Not enough, I know, but way better than nothing.

I'm not clear on a step further: how to predict if someone might be an upstream or downstream (or even better, type I, II, or III) player before seeing them play. Seeing if someone has an overbite or an underbite seems to be a place to start, but it seems to me to be not that in general, as I know very good upstream players who don't have an underbite. Relative sizes and lengths of the lips? Curves formed by relative angles of teeth and/or jawbones to each other? Other stuff? I don't really know how to break that down reliably.

Edit:

Speaking of that playing sample from the tuba student, I have no idea if this observation applies to his past experiences, but it's a pretty common concept in a lot of mistaken brass instruction that the airstream goes straight down the mouthpiece, which for some people may explain why some people try to play with the mouthpiece very centered when they may be better off otherwise. It's pretty obvious for this tubist once you see the lips flipping the direction of the airstream mid-phrase. Not so much if you don't expect that.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Redthunder »

AndrewMeronek wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:58 pm
Wilktone wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:20 pm Andrew, have you figured out what I'm driving at yet?

I'm not clear on a step further: how to predict if someone might be an upstream or downstream (or even better, type I, II, or III) player before seeing them play. Seeing if someone has an overbite or an underbite seems to be a place to start, but it seems to me to be not that in general, as I know very good upstream players who don't have an underbite. Relative sizes and lengths of the lips? Curves formed by relative angles of teeth and/or jawbones to each other? Other stuff? I don't really know how to break that down reliably.
I've also been trying to observe and predict what someone's embouchure type maybe before seeing them play based on their anatomy. There's an assumption though with this that whatever way they play is already correct for their face, so there's lots of room for error, if they happen to have anatomy suited to one type but play with a different type (like this tubist).

One good clue that I've learned from Doug about a classic sign of anatomy suited to upstream players is the length of a players top lip relative to their bottom, specifically a shorter top lip than the bottom lip. But even with that information it's more just for my own amusement to guess peoples embouchure function without really watching them play.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Basbasun »

imsevimse wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:33 pm The placement of the mouthpiece is obviously different. You could suspect the first player to be upstream and the second to be downstream, but I would not be 100% sure
Their placement suggest this, that's all I can say. The tubist has a centered mouthpiece placement. It might be easier for his overall change if he moved his mouthpiece slightly either down or up. Since he has not much room above (because there is his nose) he could try to move the mouthpiece down slightly. In that case the advice would be to play downstream but since it is only a slight change I would not suggest this (downstream). I think I would leave that to the student to decide since a tuba mouthpiece is so big. I'm not sure this has to be done but it might help make a change come easier.

/Tom
The placement of the mouthpiece can be more upperlip or more lower lip, sometimes it is hard to judge because the placement is so close to centerd. The airstream leaves the embouchure hitting the upper part of the mouthpiece if the mouthpiece placed low, less upperlip more lower lip, the airstream goes up. More upper lip less lower lip the stream goes down. The tuba players placement is almost centerd, but to me it look like more upper lip.
I would say that his corners are very lose when he is playing low. If he will keep studying tuba he may have to find a way to keep the corners more firm, the tuba has to go much lower than that. His lower lip does prodrud and make him look like an "uppstream", i think is just to loose. He does play good, he might fix that problem himself if nobody help. Would be nice to see a more resent wideo?
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by marccromme »

imsevimse wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:33 pm The placement of the mouthpiece is obviously different. You could suspect the first player to be upstream and the second to be downstream, but I would not be 100% sure
Their placement suggest this, that's all I can say.
.... except that logic dictates it's the other way around: If you play with more of the upper lip than the lower lip - high MP placement - than the upper lip is more easily pushed outwards by the ait pressure from inside (larger lip areal), so the air stream would be directed downwards (cause the lower lip is more on the inside of the opening).
.. that is at least how I play with high mouthpiece placement.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Basbasun »

The edinburgh university and the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm has mady studys of brass embouchure, and made mechanic embouchure. Even though the results are interesting, I don´t think they are any help to most brass teachers.
I got my brassteachers paper 1966. I did teach in the public school very little, I had lots playing gigs. 1983 I started to teach at the only music gymnasium in Sweden at that time. Nobody asked for my papers. I worked at two universitys for 25 years, nobody asked for my papers.
As teachers i admire Dennis Wick, Arnold Jacobs and many more. Of course there is a very important phsycologic side of making music on trombone like other instruments. You cant play with just the right mpc placement.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Wilktone »

You cant play with just the right mpc placement.
Of course, but no one has argued otherwise. But if the mouthpiece placement you've been taught by your teachers is wrong for you, what is a serious student to do? You don't need to be an embouchure expert to follow what's going on with the tubist I'm using as an example. See more below.
The placement of the mouthpiece is obviously different. You could suspect the first player to be upstream and the second to be downstream, but I would not be 100% sure
Reverse your description and you've got it (top photo with more upper lip inside is downstream, lower photo with more lower lip inside is upstream).
It might be easier for his overall change if he moved his mouthpiece slightly either down or up.
Now you're on the right track.
I'm not clear on a step further: how to predict if someone might be an upstream or downstream (or even better, type I, II, or III) player before seeing them play.
For now, I wouldn't dwell on trying to predict how someone will play based on anatomy.
There's an assumption though with this that whatever way they play is already correct for their face, so there's lots of room for error, if they happen to have anatomy suited to one type but play with a different type (like this tubist).
Yes, I think it's best to work with a student based on what you see and hear while they are playing. Sometimes this involves trying out some different things and seeing what and how it works.

Let's continue with this tubist. Here are a couple of other clips that happened as I asked him to demonstrate playing some octave slurs that took him to the very top of his range. Note his verbal responses to my questions. Listen closely to the intonation on the two high E's he plays in the second clip in this video. Which one sounds flatter than the other?



Now what would you recommend for this tubist? A higher mouthpiece placement or a lower one?

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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by imsevimse »

marccromme wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:09 pm
imsevimse wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:33 pm The placement of the mouthpiece is obviously different. You could suspect the first player to be upstream and the second to be downstream, but I would not be 100% sure
Their placement suggest this, that's all I can say.
.... except that logic dictates it's the other way around: If you play with more of the upper lip than the lower lip - high MP placement - than the upper lip is more easily pushed outwards by the ait pressure from inside (larger lip areal), so the air stream would be directed downwards (cause the lower lip is more on the inside of the opening).
.. that is at least how I play with high mouthpiece placement.
Yes, that makes more sense when I think of it.
Let's continue with this tubist. Here are a couple of other clips that happened as I asked him to demonstrate playing some octave slurs that took him to the very top of his range. Note his verbal responses to my questions. Listen closely to the intonation on the two high E's he plays in the second clip in this video. Which one sounds flatter than the other
What I can see and hear is he has easier to play high when his mouthpiece placement is low and his upper lip is very close to the rim and since he then has more bottom lip he is then probably playing upstream (hope I got that right now :wink: ). I find it very difficult to give the advice to place the mouthpiece that low. It does not look right to me but the way the lips work when he is playing high and has his mouthpiece placement in the middle does not look right either. That looks a bit like a "smile" to me. Not a terrible smile but his mouth corners are back and it almost causes a leak. Actually I am not sure about what to give for practice to correct that at all. He needs to put more focus to the center of his lips and push the corners forward.

I think I would advice the student to move the mouthpiece a little lower to make a very slight change because it needs to feel different or else there will be no change, then I would advice him to push his mouth corners forward, they must be more firm when he plays over all. I still think he should start high and play from top to bottom and do chromatics to fix the firm corners. He should stop whenever the switch happens because it will happen many times as he relerns. He should only do chromatics from high to low. That's what I give him to play for a week.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:40 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Bach5G »

Here’s a few random bits of advice that I’ve received over the past couple of years that are rattling around in my brain these days:

1. R Sauer talked about aiming for a point in your mpc. Low = nearly straight down the throat; high = downward, just inside the rim

2. D Elliot (I was a downstream med high / placement) talked about the embouchure being in essence a single not a double reed instrument (cf S Burtis/C Caruso saloon door analogy).

Also, in an interview, Dick Nash talked about rolling his lower lip inwards to play high.

All of this has me tightening my corners and reducing the aperture, and arching the back of the tongue in the high register. I don’t know if this makes any sense. It seems to be working a bit.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

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imsevimse wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:05 pm I find it very difficult to give the advice to place the mouthpiece that low. It does not look right to me but the way the lips work when he is playing high and has his mouthpiece placement in the middle does not look right either to me. That looks a bit like a "smile" to me. Not a terrible smile but his mouth corners are back and it almost causes a leak. Actually I am not sure about has to correct that at all.
Very low placement is uncommon but not unheard of at the highest levels; in of itself it's not necessarily wrong. Two fairly famous players with very low placements I can think of are Walter White on trumpet:



and Dick Nash on trombone. Unfortunately, I had trouble finding clips of him playing where the camera angle actually shows his setup; most of the clips picked bad angles.

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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Doug Elliott »

I like the direction this discussion is going. Thanks Dave for selecting some good examples.

There are usually multiple choices in how to go about fixing problems, and they don't necessarily leave the player unable to sound good... but sometimes that's a necessary part of the process.

To me the tubist looks like when playing upstream, everything just falls nicely into place. What did he end up doing, or is it too early to tell?
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

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What I can see and hear is he has easier to play high when his mouthpiece placement is low and since he then has more bottom lip he is then probably playing upstream (hope I got that right now :wink: ).
Yep, you're following.

Here are some clips of some early experiments with playing his entire range on an upstream embouchure. Note that he is able to play from high to low and back up with an upstream embouchure placement. This setting has eliminated his break and also his high range cap.


That looks a bit like a "smile" to me. Not a terrible smile but his mouth corners are back and it almost causes a leak. Actually I am not sure about what to give for practice to correct that at all. He needs to put more focus to the center of his lips and push the corners forward.
And it is more obvious in the above video. But now that we have a pretty good idea what embouchure type this tubist should be playing on, we could make those corrections and not have the air stream flip get in his way.
To me the tubist looks like when playing upstream, everything just falls nicely into place. What did he end up doing, or is it too early to tell?
For what it's worth, at the time this student came to me (about 10 years ago) he was continuing to play tuba for his scholarship, but he had chosen jazz piano as his major.

He was initially very reluctant to make this change and I didn't press him on it. After a while he reconsidered, started to make more of an effort with it and did make some good improvements, but he then left school and was planning to go somewhere else for a degree in piano in a year or two. I've lost touch with him, so I can't follow up.
I find it very difficult to give the advice to place the mouthpiece that low.
Most teachers do. Upstream players are in the minority, mostly because of the rarer anatomical features that make it correct for a player, but also because it is actively and incorrectly discouraged by teachers who should know better. I can go into more detail on this, but I want to poke around my video clips for a different example to show a different embouchure characteristic.

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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Wilktone »

Here are three short clips of a trumpet player who came to me looking for help with his upper register. His embouchure issue is more subtle than the tubist's, so I'll give you some clues.

First, his air stream direction isn't his issue. Some of this video has him playing into a transparent mouthpiece, so I'll ask everyone to let me know if you think it's a downstream or upstream embouchure. Do you think you could now have a reasonable guess at which without needing to use a transparent mouthpiece, based on his lip ratio alone?

Second, for now ignore his overall embouchure stability (mouth corners, jaw moving around a bit, etc.). Those are some things that could be worked on here, but it's not what's ultimately making him work so hard for his upper register.

For your last clue, focus your attention on the space between the mouthpiece and nose as he plays these octave slurs. Can you see what he's doing (or maybe not doing) that makes the high Cs difficult and flat?

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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by AndrewMeronek »

I wonder why the clear mouthpieces retain the weird outer shape that typical mouthpieces have, because that adds distortion we have to try to look around to see what's happening inside the cup. Why not have a clear mouthpiece where the outer shape is more like the Lindberg mouthpieces, so there's less visual distortion?

I can't really tell what direction he's blowing.

Although, from what I can tell, I can see the upper lip moving up to go down and moving down to go up - which isn't typical for a high placement downstream player as far as I know.

There's also a clue in how moisture droplets seem to be more 'stable' on top of the mouthpiece but due to how that mouthpiece outer shape around the rim is, I can't really see for sure.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

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I wonder why the clear mouthpieces retain the weird outer shape that typical mouthpieces have, because that adds distortion we have to try to look around to see what's happening inside the cup. Why not have a clear mouthpiece where the outer shape is more like the Lindberg mouthpieces, so there's less visual distortion?
Reinhardt made some. Doug makes his own. The ones I'm showing in these videos were made by Kelly Mouthpieces, and I think they are made from a mold. They weren't designed to be used as embouchure aids, but were designed to be able to made from different colored plexiglass. While it take some more effort to get a close look at the lips inside with the Kelly Mouthpieces, they make up for it with how cheap they are. The transparent mouthpieces develop small cracks in them over time which make it necessary to replace them once in a while. Furthermore, while conducting this embouchure research I was required by the Institutional Review Board protocols for using human subjects to use a bleach/water substance to disinfect the mouthpieces between uses for different players. That gets them cloudy much faster.
I can't really tell what direction he's blowing.
Can you tell which lip is predominant inside the mouthpiece? You guessed a downstream embouchure type.
Although, from what I can tell, I can see the upper lip moving up to go down and moving down to go up - which isn't typical for a high placement downstream player as far as I know.
You're on the right "track" (that's a pun, for folks in the know), but I want to catch up the other folks first. Here is a video of two other trumpet players. Both are professional musicians with good range. Again, ignore their air stream direction for now (they are both downstream players, for the record). Instead, look at how they push and pull their lips up and down as they ascend and descend. Can you see the difference between the two?

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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by imsevimse »

These trumpet players sound good. I can see the first aim to his right when he reach for the higher octave. I have no problem with that

All three "tew" a little between the octave leaps. That could be worked on.

The mouthcornes are not as firm as they could be. They could be more forward and down instead of back. I would not call this as smile at all but there are movements that draw the lips back when they play high. This could be worked on.

It looks like the second player plays downstream when he plays the upper octave and more straight when he is playing low. That is not a problem but the movements he does whith his jaw could be smaller, after all this is not either very low of very high. It looks like he increase the distance between his teeth when he goes high and close to go low. This will cause tewing. That could be worked on.

I think what we heard was okay and then it is difficult to have a clue what correct. I would leave it with no comments if there wasn't any particular issue they brought up.

If it sounds good and it is not obviously wrong then I would not suggest any changes. Why did they seek your help?

/Tom
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Doug Elliott »

You're not seeing the exact things that define an embouchure type, and that is the key to understanding how to improve playing or fix problems.

The first video's player is using strength alone to play the top octave and relaxing to play the bottom octave. The sound is thin on the top octave, and the octaves are out of tune. What Dave and I see are the things he's NOT doing.

The second video's 1st player is using the mechanical advantage of his correct Pivot or motion to reach the top and bottom octaves. Watch the upward motion for the top octave and the downward motion for the bottom octave.

Both of those players are the same embouchure type that I call Very High Placement (Reinhardt's IIIA). But they are functioning very differently. The first is working hard and the second is hardly working.

The player at the end of the 2nd video is also using his correct pivot and you can see and hear how easy it is for him - but he's the other downstream embouchure type that I call medium-high placement (Reinhardt's IIIB)

That's a very basic lesson in the two common downstream embouchure types.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Basbasun »

About Tuba embouchure 2. " Listen closely to the intonation on the two high E's he plays in the second clip in this video. Which one sounds flatter than the other?"
I listened. I though isn´t that E played with low placement embouchure sharp? Then I messured with cleartone and found that to be true.
(there is an old joke in Swedish wind orchestras "It is better to sharp the to be out of tune)
The tubaist has embouchure problems both with high and low placement. I think Tom should be able to suggest some remedy.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

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I listened. I though isn´t that E played with low placement embouchure sharp? Then I messured with cleartone and found that to be true.
(there is an old joke in Swedish wind orchestras "It is better to sharp the to be out of tune)
You're right, when I used a tuner to check those pitches low placement E is quite a bit sharp, but then again the higher placement E is also sharp, just not as much. The real question is where the intonation is relative to each other and the rest of the instrument at that moment.

Even though I'm emphasizing the physical embouchure characteristics, don't neglect what you're hearing. Listen for tone (which is tough on these videos, the mic on the camera isn't meant for music, plus who knows what speakers you might be using to listen to them) and listen for intonation. Intonation is another objective clue into whether what that player is doing might be working for them. In the case of the tubist playing his highest possible notes, the usual placement (high register downstream) sounds flatter (lower) than the low placement (upstream) setting. This suggests two possibilities to consider, both of which give us some clues to help us figure out what's going to work best.

1. His normal setting is flat because he's playing the very top of his range and he can't quite get his lips to vibrate fast enough to get the note in tune.

2. His upstream setting is sharp because it's now easier for him to play (which he verbally stated) and also suggests that perhaps he can more easily get the lips to vibrate for those high notes.

In and of itself, I wouldn't say these are definitive clues, but teachers working with a student's embouchure can use intonation as a clue to discover which direction to go.
The tubaist has embouchure problems both with high and low placement.
Yes, but the bulk of those problems are the same, regardless of which placement he uses. The major two noted problems (the high range cap and the flip of air stream right in the middle of his range) are only present on the higher mouthpiece placement. Furthermore, I don't think that anything other than a lower placement will actually get rid of those two major embouchure issues.

In my opinion, fixing the air stream direction is the first step. Then make the other corrections.

But it should go without saying, the best solution for this tubist would have been if he had been taught this much earlier. It would have saved his struggles in a high pressured academic situation and probably made it easier for him to develop good embouchure form much faster. He wouldn't have needed to replace years of physical habit.
I think what we heard was okay and then it is difficult to have a clue what correct. I would leave it with no comments if there wasn't any particular issue they brought up.

If it sounds good and it is not obviously wrong then I would not suggest any changes. Why did they seek your help?
Tom, you're making assumptions and that's making you miss what I was hoping you'd note. Sure, the overall embouchure stability you pointed out is an important part of a player's embouchure technique, but let's leave that discussion aside until later.

The two trumpet players in the second video didn't actually come to me for help, I went to them to video record them. Pretty much all of the videos and photos I have of brass players' embouchures come from one of two research projects I conducted. The photos from the first page of this topic were taken in the late 90s as I was collecting data for my dissertation research ("The correlation between Doug Elliott's embouchure types and selected physical and playing characteristics"). The videos are from 2008-2010 and was a general project to record as many different brass players' embouchures to present a workshop on brass embouchures at the North Carolina Music Educators Conference in 2010.

The players in both of these studies range widely in age and playing experience. The time I spent with each also varies from regular lessons for years to a quick 10 minutes.
You're not seeing the exact things that define an embouchure type, and that is the key to understanding how to improve playing or fix problems.
Doug, of course, knows exactly where I was going with this.

If you're still confused (or even just for extra practice) go back and watch the 2nd trumpet video with the two players. The first player is pushing his mouthpiece and lips together up to ascend and down to descend. He does this consistently throughout his range. The second trumpet player is doing the reverse, pulling down to ascend and pushing up to descend.

This motion is an important part of a brass musician's embouchure, yet the vast majority of players don't even know it exists. I have yet to be able to closely observe a brass player of any experience level who doesn't use an embouchure motion. It really appears to be a universal feature, like the upstream and downstream types.

Now go back and look closely at the first trumpet player with the high range struggles. Can you see a consistent embouchure motion? From about the G on top of the staff and below he looks to be pushing up to ascend and pulling down to descend (much like the 1st trumpet player in the second video). But when he gets above the staff he begins to reverse this motion and starts pulling down to ascend. And he works really hard to play up there and has a limited high range.

I'll follow up in a bit after I can find the appropriate video clips.

Dave
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Wilktone »

In helping the trumpet player with high range issues I had a guess from the beginning what he might need to do. Like Doug, my initial though was that he should be continuing to push up to ascend and try to make his embouchure function more like the the first player in the 2nd video. Some of the lesson was me testing some things out to see if that inclination was correct. Much of the lesson was "convincing" the trumpet player that this was correct.

I really didn't have to do much verbal convincing, he was open to the ideas and receptive to trying things out (not everyone always is). But what we had to do was fight against decades of habit with him to give him a chance of success. Once he was able to click with it, he both felt and heard what it was like to play with his correct embouchure motion. The next step after that is to put in the work to make the embouchure motion work correctly without conscious thought.

The following video represents some different experiments I had him try both to help me determine what would be correct for him and also to help him experience success with playing correctly for his embouchure type. I've labeled them according to what I was asking him to try out so that you can see and hear what some of this looks like.



Some things I want to point out that were either left out of the video above or may not be obvious:

1. I had him spend some time playing his descending embouchure motion to his low range. If things aren't working well for a student in the upper register, looking at what works well in the middle and lower register (and what doesn't) may help you figure out what that student should be doing in the upper register.

2. Notice that I also experimented with the embouchure motion not going in a straight up and down motion, but angled off to the side. This sort of angle deviation from the straight up and down embouchure motion is fairly common, but the "track" of the embouchure motion should probably always be a straight line. For this trumpet player, we ended up with a track of pushing up and to his right side to ascend and pulling down and to his left side to descend.

3. Listen for tone and intonation as he tries these different ways of playing. He isn't always successful with what we ended up with as being correct throughout these experiments, but I think you'll see and hear the general trend in the clips.

4. Over the time trying out different things I also ended up helping him tweak his mouthpiece placement a bit (a little higher and little more to his right side). Some of the success he was getting at the later clips in the video happened after we found this spot to help open up his sound and make his playing feel easier.

5. I left in a couple of his verbal reactions. The evening after this lesson he called me up to tell me that he had been continuing to work on this and took it all the way to G above high C, a note he had never come close to before.

This trumpet player hadn't reached a terrible breakdown in his playing at this stage, he was just complaining about working very hard to play high and wanted to improve his upper register. But there are some players with very similar reversals in embouchure type that play at a very high level - until they reach a point where a demanding schedule/equipment change/or some other factor is too much and things start to break down. When it gets to this stage it can be much more difficult for the musician to make these changes and it can threaten or end a player's career.

Don't you think brass pedagogy would better serve everyone if more people had this information at their disposal?

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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by baileyman »

When he smiles at the end, it's all top teeth showing. Did he have a clear path for the air between the teeth, between the lips or were the gaps misaligned?
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Doug Elliott »

If it works, there must be "a clear path for the air between the teeth." Air doesn't have to travel in a straight line. And when you're creating a vibration there may be advantages to having it travel in a different path.

I have found, as Reinhardt also did, that the physical appearance - teeth or gums showing in a smile, or apparent jaw alignment, or thick or thin lips, or relative lengths of the teeth or lips - none of those are accurate predictors of embouchure type. It's a combination of the whole package that produces one configuration or another that works. Everybody's face is built differently, and for success you have to figure out what works best and go with it. It's not always easy.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by imsevimse »

I have found that it helps my emboushure to blow in an angle down to the right when I play low. It is more of a feel than something that actually can be noticed.Then I have also found it helps to "push up" when I go real high. If "push up" to ascend means raise the horn angle slightly and to have a slight more pressure on the top lip. My absolute highest note at the moment is the B natural above the five ledger f (a squeak B) and I use that "push up" above the five ledger f. I think I have slightly more top lip than bottom lip in the mouthpiece. Doug diagnosed me as a Very High Placement, or Reinhardt's IIIA the 30:th of July 2017 after I had videotaped my self and put up in a thread at the old forum.
https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic. ... 492#p27613

I do believe these things work but to me I've come to what works through a lot of experiments, just a lot of trial and errors. What happens if I try this, or if I try that?

Isn't it so that if you have never questioned yourself then you have never experimented for real.

If we take a path and do not know where we are or where we are going then it doesn't really matter what direction we go. I think this is often how we just go on and on as students if we are not lead by a competent teacher. Often the teachers do the same and can not see there are different paths for a student to try.

I had to be awakened by my new teacher to even consider to do things differently.

What I think is; A change is good for a student at any level if they have not questioned themselves before. In that last movie the student is really encouraged to experiment with his playing, I think that is wonderful.

/Tom
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by AndrewMeronek »

Wilktone wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:37 am Don't you think brass pedagogy would better serve everyone if more people had this information at their disposal?

Dave
I think that brass pedagogy, especially pertaining to getting people a good jump-start in their first two years of playing, is extremely well-served if more instructors had this information. That's way before people start to build the mental blocks instructors sometimes have to deal with as people get more experienced.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by AndrewMeronek »

Wilktone wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:03 pm Here is a video of two other trumpet players. Both are professional musicians with good range. Again, ignore their air stream direction for now (they are both downstream players, for the record). Instead, look at how they push and pull their lips up and down as they ascend and descend. Can you see the difference between the two?
The first pushes up to go high; the second pushes down to go high. I understand this is the basic difference (for downstream players) between type III and type II embouchures - is this the case with this video?

I'm not sure if I have my head wrapped around how that second embouchure works, even though it clearly does. It seems as if the lower lip is still the dominant lip in terms of controlling the aperture even though it's behind the upper.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Wilktone »

Andrew, you're getting Reinhardt's embouchure types a bit mixed up, but I think you have the idea now. I prefer to use the three basic types Doug uses:

1. "Very High Placement" - Downstream/more upper lip inside, embouchure motion up to ascend and down to descend

2. "Medium High Placement" - Downstream/more upper lip inside, embouchure motion down to ascend and up to descend

3. "Low Placement" - Upstream/more lower lip inside, embouchure motion down to ascend and up to descend

All brass musicians will fit within one of these basic patterns, unless they are type switching (of which you can see some of the results in the two players I used as examples above).

Players belonging to the same of the three above embouchure types will usually have other features in common. For example, "Very High Placement" types usually have the mouthpiece with more upper lip inside compared with "Medium High Placement," but the placement descriptions can be deceptive. The main distinguishing feature between "Very High" and "Medium High" is the direction of the embouchure motion.



Now if you go back to the videos of the players with issues you can look at them within the context of these three basic embouchure types. When you see a student with issues, what is that student's embouchure type? Is it the correct type for that student or are they playing on the wrong embouchure type for some reason? Is the student type switching or otherwise not following the basic embouchure mechanics for their embouchure type?

Answers to those questions can sometimes be easy and often hard. But honest, objective answers to how to best address embouchure technique with a student really can't be done unless you have a basic understanding of what to look for. Anything else is a shot in the dark and you might just be putting a band-aid on an issue that's going to be harder to fix the longer it goes on.

The more familiar you are with looking for the basic brass embouchure types (and hopefully getting feedback from someone who has more experience with your answers) the more easily you will spot what the issues like in the tubist and trumpet player I posted earlier. Sometimes you'll spot problems before they begin to develop.

I know a certain segment of brass teachers and players have already tuned out, but does this make sense to everyone? Does anyone have any specific questions about the basic embouchure characteristics and these three basic types?

Homework is to look closely at the brass players around you and see if you can type them. You don't need a transparent mouthpiece, just use your best guess based on mouthpiece placement. Octave slurs going two or more octaves help you spot the embouchure motion. Be careful to not confuse the embouchure motion based on what their horn angle does or whether or not they drop the jaw to descend (jaw drop can obscure the embouchure motion when it happens, so ask them to play in a range where they don't if you can't tell).

If you have followed this discussion and can assimilate the information you will know more about brass embouchure technique than most professional brass players and teachers.

If people are still getting something out of this I'll pull out some random video from my data and we can play guess the embouchure type.

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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by imsevimse »

Wilktone wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:44 am If people are still getting something out of this I'll pull out some random video from my data and we can play guess the embouchure type.
Yes, absolutely.

That last video as a summary was very good! I can spot signs in several of those last excerpts that help me categorize them according to the three categories described.

Today I have investigated my own playing based on the things I saw and heard in those videos. I have discovered that I do "push up" as I ascend much earlier than I thought I did. The reason I have not noticed this is probably because it is not much force and it is never something that I get tired from. In the extreme register it is different. Over five ledger f there is a lot of force on the top lip, and the force on the squeak B natural is tiring. So, yes I "push up" to ascend, but it has been off my mind. What I do know is I aim down to the right as I descend in the low register. That is something I do deliberately.

About this topic
A very important part of any persons development in any field is to challenge their beliefs as well as try everything and use what works. Teaching is no different. A person who is only open-minded to ideas he/she already believe in might be very skilld in his/her field but will not evolve as much as a person compared to one who choose to sit back, participate and listen. It would be interesting to see where this thread is going. So far so good 👍

/Tom
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by torobone »

Is it possible to achieve a focused, centred sound with a very high or low placement?
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Doug Elliott »

I'm not sure why you would even ask that question. "Is it possible to achieve a focused, centred sound with a very high or low placement?"

The majority of players have what I call a very high placement. Some higher than others.

Dick Nash is the best example of a very low placement. Do you think he does not have a focused, centred sound?
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Redthunder »

torobone wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:18 pm Is it possible to achieve a focused, centred sound with a very high or low placement?
Yes. I play with a lower placement than every other low placement trombone player I’ve seen in person, with the exception of Dave Wilken.

I get complimented on my focused, centered sound more than any other aspect of my playing, but only when everything is working correctly.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Wilktone »

I figured it would be time to show some trombone embouchures, but this trumpet player was one of the next players I happened to go to. Perhaps my choice of this player reflects some unconscious bias on my part, and that might be a clue for what embouchure type this player belongs to.



No transparent mouthpiece needed to type this player. What's your guess?
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by AndrewMeronek »

Wilktone wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:44 am Andrew, you're getting Reinhardt's embouchure types a bit mixed up, but I think you have the idea now. I prefer to use the three basic types Doug uses:

1. "Very High Placement" - Downstream/more upper lip inside, embouchure motion up to ascend and down to descend

2. "Medium High Placement" - Downstream/more upper lip inside, embouchure motion down to ascend and up to descend

3. "Low Placement" - Upstream/more lower lip inside, embouchure motion down to ascend and up to descend
Right. I went back to refresh my memory via my copy of Reinhardt's encyclopedia, and his are pretty different. I guess it's important to be more specific about where these labels are coming from so I don't get myself confused.

The video immediately above is the low placement type.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by imsevimse »

More bottom lip than top lip makes him a "Low placement" and probably upstream. "Push down" to ascend and up to descend. To me the last phrase was more evident.

/Tom
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Wilktone »

Andrew and Tom, you are correct, that trumpet player fits Doug's "low placement" embouchure type. If you want to specify you could say he is a "low placement" embouchure type who aligns his teeth and has a horn angle close to straight out.

The clip I posted of that trumpet player was when I was setting up the camera. I asked him to just do his usual warm up while I got everything in place. It's a pretty good example of the "low placement" type. He had a pretty strong upper register when I recorded this video. He was very solid to E above high C and played some pretty good Gs above that for me.

This next one may be tougher to guess.



I had forgotten about this trombonist. He was a college student who continued to take lessons through his freshman year, but by this point was playing in the school ensembles for fun. Watching the video I took of him I found some things that some of you might find interesting after you guess his embouchure type.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by BurckhardtS »

To me, he looks like he is pivoting like a medium or low placement, but I'm not sure if that's totally right for him. Watching the space between the rim and nose seems like it's really kind of all over the place or not totally consistent or obvious. His placement looks pretty much 50/50 and that moving away from that, whichever direction is correct, would probably really help him. Am I in the ballpark?
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Doug Elliott »

He's clearly a Mash and Blow type.
Or maybe Pinch, Mash, amd Blow.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Savio »

The last one was difficult to see what direction the movement is. But I think he have more over lip inside the mouthpiece.
So either IIIA or IIIB. He had trouble with the high notes.
One question; I had a little (9 years old) student yesterday with some problems. I think he is IIIA like me but I see he have the underlip sticking foreward into the mouthpiece. He sounds very pincht, thin. I told him to roll the underlip in and the sound got bigger. Hope I did some right? Lets see next week. A little knowledge is dangerous but I have to try something with this little boy. The placement is clearly more overlip but he stick the underlip out. (not the jaw)

Else I can tell for the higher education in my place of the world, they dont take inside any players with obvious problems. Its a high level to get inside, and they focus to make them become musicians. But I really dont know much about that enviroment since I mostly teach children in my own work.

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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Doug Elliott »

With some guidance that last one might end up IIIA but he's not doing it now.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Wilktone »

Yes, that last trombonist is harder to type than the other players. Here is some more video of him playing, this time into a transparent mouthpiece (btw, Andrew, this mouthpiece is one of Reinhardt's design).



The last clip in this video was after we had been at it for a bit. I kept turning the camera off to make it easier to edit the video, but now I don't exactly recall what we had been talking about in between.

The very last part of the video happened towards the end of our session. I think that we had found a mouthpiece placement more to his right side helped him some as well as a couple of other things that might work well with some practice.

Now seeing that, what embouchure type do you suspect would be the best place to start with for him?

At this point in our discussion, three things come to mind:

1. If you've followed this far you now know more about brass embouchures than the vast majority of players and teachers (at least in the U.S.), including most at the top of those professions.

2. It takes some study and practice to apply this information in your teaching, but it's not all that hard to understand. There are plenty of examples that we can look at to show how this knowledge is useful. This goes at all levels, from beginners to professionals.

3. This discussion has spun off from its original intent, albeit a topical one. I wonder if moving this discussion into a separate topic with a more descriptive title would help more folks who would be interested find it.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by AndrewMeronek »

I can't really tell for sure if that last trombonist ascends or descends to go higher in pitch. Both the camera and he is moving around a lot which makes it hard to tell. Taking a stab I'd say he lowers the mouthpiece to ascend and raises it to descend.

He has a fairly centered placement.

He is angling the horn downward relative to his chops to ascend and upward to descend, but is this always matching how the embouchure moves?

I guess my observations put him in the 'medium high placement' category. It looks like it's not working that well for him - his sound is pretty pinched. But, if he was just playing in ensembles for fun, he may not really be in any kind of shape, so the pinched sound could be from that in addition to (or instead of) embouchure problems.

I also noticed that he plays to the right of center, and that he seems to be using a perfectly vertical occlusion. Left of center is perfectly normal, but having a perfectly vertical occlusion while doing so seems to me to be unusual.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by torobone »

Doug Elliott wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:13 pm I'm not sure why you would even ask that question. "Is it possible to achieve a focused, centred sound with a very high or low placement?"

The majority of players have what I call a very high placement. Some higher than others.

Dick Nash is the best example of a very low placement. Do you think he does not have a focused, centred sound?
Thanks, I just wanted to know the answer.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by AndrewMeronek »

Ah, I wanted to get my response from the first video of that last student out, and it took me a bit to think through what I was seeing.

For the second video, I see that his first notes are clearly downstream.

That mouthpiece is definitely easier to see things in. :)

That motion to have the lower lip moving out and in instead of up and down seems to me to be unusual. Is that uncommon? I'm thinking that may be what's happening for some people who feel their lip 'rolling'. Seeing him do that motion in the mouthpiece does explain why it's so hard to see if he's moving the mouthpiece up or down. He isn't.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by timothy42b »

Now I'm confused. My immediate impression was IIIA by the way, not sure why. Maybe because it sounded a bit like some of my attempts.

But why I'm confused is when he does the octave slur down at :28, I thought I saw a splash of air on the top of the mouthpiece. Is he playing upstream at that point, or am I just not seeing it?
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by imsevimse »

I have been busy at work and came late to this one. I have not looked at the answers after that first tromboneplayer-video. I wanted to see if I could sort him out.

So my answer without consideration to any other answer is it looks like he is a "Low placement player" but it also seems like he is playing downstream and another thing is he "push down" to ascend and up to descend. The three different things to look for (placement, airstream and pivot) does not sum up to fit any of the three types.

Now I will look at your answers.

/Tom
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by imsevimse »

After have seen that second video of the tromboneplayer he is definitely a downstream player. I guess to make him a "Medium high placement" player could help him. The other choice would be to suggest an upstream emboushure to go with that low placement, but I would not suggest this. That plastic mouthpiece is a great tool :-)

I think he should continue to experiment with downstream emboushure. Maybe he could try to move the mouthpiece up a bit and change the pivot and try the reverse (Push up to ascend and down to descend). As I see it he needs to experiment with this a lot. It's great to let him try alternatives.

He must focus his lips more to the centre, from the sides. Neither of the lips does proper work inside the mouthpiece. It looks like he press the mouthpiece straight at the lips to get into his high register. His sound is also very pinched.

/Tom
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Doug Elliott »

Exactly. What he's doing is really not working well and it's time to look at alternate scenarios. This one is not a matter for small adjustments. His 50/50 placement is just wrong.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Basbasun »

This last players biggest problem is that he is compressing his lips to much and is not using his air.
To much lip power to weak air-flow, well there is no air-flow really. The mouthpiece placement is hard to do anything
about as long as he does not blow his horn, I would have him to sing, yes sing with his voice to feel the air-flow.
Sing wath is gonna be played, listen for a good sound, play the horn the same way. Eventually he may find his personal best mouthpiece placement.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Wilktone »

This last players biggest problem is that he is compressing his lips to much and is not using his air.
To much lip power to weak air-flow, well there is no air-flow really. The mouthpiece placement is hard to do anything
about as long as he does not blow his horn, I would have him to sing, yes sing with his voice to feel the air-flow.
Sing wath is gonna be played, listen for a good sound, play the horn the same way. Eventually he may find his personal best mouthpiece placement.
I think you're missing the point. Sure, if you've got nothing else to go on you're better off helping with something, but address the problem, not the symptom.

I don't want you to get the impression that I don't think it would be helpful for this trombonist to improve breathing and work on singing. Those are useful and would probably make for improvements in his playing. But I see no way that breathing and singing are going to have any noticeable effect on any player's mouthpiece placement. That's ignoring this trombonist's problem and hoping it goes away if you work on something else. It didn't work with the tubist or the trumpet player I posted earlier, why do you think it should work with this trombonist?

Now I will concede that it may be useful to prioritize and work on something else for a time, particularly since it's not clear yet how this trombonist would play best. In fact, I think the most important thing this trombonist should have been doing for his playing is pick up his horn more than 2-3 times a week for a rehearsal. If he was playing more regularly we would probably be able to better determine his correct embouchure type.

But the essential point is that you return to diagnosing the problem later when it makes more sense to address it, not ignore it and hope that it fixes itself. Not addressing it for real is exactly what sometimes causes good players to suffer breakdowns later. It also makes for uninformed students who go on to become uninformed teachers and perpetuate the culture of ignorance.
Exactly. What he's doing is really not working well and it's time to look at alternate scenarios. This one is not a matter for small adjustments. His 50/50 placement is just wrong.
For what it's worth, I did experiment with that trombonist more, including asking him to play with both a "very high placement" and "low placement" embouchure types. I really can't post anything that I think definitively points to any particular type, but my best guess is that he would settle in as a "medium high placement." Again, that presumes that he decided to be more serious about practicing. If a student isn't all that interested, then you might as well just help him have fun and let it be.

Here's a different trombonist. What's his type? There are also some inconsistencies in his player that could make for overall improvements. What do you see that you might try?



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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Savio »

He is downstream, IIIA? He have a lot of movement down to the pedal. Maybe try to put his mouthpiece a tiny bit down? And not move the jaw forward on the higher notes? By the way his corners could be more stable, maybe frebuzz would help? His low register sounds good but the high is a little thin. So maybe move mouthpiece a little down on his face?

Interesting topic, I do not know so I have to guess. He should be glad I am not his teacher....

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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by Wilktone »

He have a lot of movement down to the pedal.
Yes. That's pretty common.
Maybe try to put his mouthpiece a tiny bit down?
I see you're not sure about this. Why do you suspect a mouthpiece placement lower would be better?
And not move the jaw forward on the higher notes?
What do you think the role of the jaw should be?
By the way his corners could be more stable, maybe frebuzz would help?
Yes.
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Re: Embouchure mechanics certificates?

Post by AndrewMeronek »

With that last one, I'd start with addressing how he's doing slurs and make sure he's doing them without that air hitch and to do them as lip glisses. I see lots of players add that air 'hitch' to slurs (where they momentarily back off on the air in the middle of the slur) as a way to try to make the slurs 'cleaner'. It's not just the embouchure motion that's the clue for that, but how there's motion in his neck as well.

Very high placement type, and it's pretty clear he's consistently moving the mouthpiece up to ascend and down to descend.

I can hear the pitch lower a bit as he holds and releases middle B-flat.
Last edited by AndrewMeronek on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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