TromboneChat

Those are awesome, thank you.  I've bookmarked them (well, "Watch later.")

Quote from: peteriley on Mar 17, 2017, 09:58AMGlad to see these two opposing viewpoints. This was a point that really intrigued me. The guy's thesis built on previous works/books published by famous trumpet players who had advocated this technique. The "wedge" or "yoga" breathing seemed interesting. I mentioned it to a couple of professional trombonists recently, and they just rolled their eyes. It seems like for the trombone you can get good-enough air support from deep breaths, pushing out the lower stomach. Perhaps the wedge breathing is for getting out that octave above the trombone range? I'm still working on getting the octave below that to sound nice

Lol. We bicker like siblings sometimes.

I gave that wedgie thingy a brief test. While I believe in good air column support as evidenced in doing arpeggio slurring exercises, I think putting it into hyper-drive is dangerous. It was waaaaay too easy for me to get all bunched up from head to toe. That ain't too good for my playing and I believe actually does more harm than good.

I give it a 50-50 mix of technique and strength/stamina. Maybe those of us who have been playing for so long forget what it took to get built up. I haven't been playing that long so I haven't forgotten. I'm MUCH stronger than I was a few years ago. Notes that used to tax to the max are now almost child's play. Why is that? Technique? Partly.

Even though I am trying to refine my technique for higher and higher playing, I also know I need to up my endurance game. And here's how I know. With my current level of strength and technique, I can play a given phrase up high found in the middle or end of a ballad pretty well. But can I start at the beginning of the ballad and still play that high part as well by the time I get there? No. Why? Did I forget my technique? No. I got tired. And that is the other side of the coin as to why we practice, practice, practice. We are building up our technique AND our strength. It takes both. Clearly.   

...Geezer

If you read the posts from Ralph Sauer in this forum you might get some hints. But there is no short way to anything ......you have to work for it.

Leif

I don't think that many people involved in this often repeated topic really understand the concept of "aperture". The way that I got it was to try and break my embouchure, in the the same way that one might take an item apart to see how it works. If you just fiddle around with something rather than digging deep, there's no real understanding to be had IMO.

Quote from: Pre59 on Mar 18, 2017, 02:13AMI don't think that many people involved in this often repeated topic really understand the concept of "aperture". The way that I got it was to try and break my embouchure, in the the same way that one might take an item apart to see how it works. If you just fiddle around with something rather than digging deep, there's no real understanding to be had IMO.

And of course, we need to have a renown surgeon's intimate knowledge of an aperture to understand the basic concept of how it works...

Keeping it real, I think we should not under-value sleep in a good training regimen. Yeah, I know; duh. But I've noticed that even though I get the exact same number of clock hours of rest between my morning and evening practice sessions as I do between my evening and morning practice sessions, I'm almost always better rested and capable of more easily hitting higher notes in the morning.

The OP is in high school, according to his profile. It's medically understood that guys his age naturally want to stay up late and sleep in late. But society has other ideas and forces him up early in the morning to bend to society's rules. Sleep deprivation can cause lower performance.

Soon to be released; my new book, "Eat, Sleep, Play". It will be a huge best seller.

...Geezer

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 18, 2017, 04:56AM

And of course, we need to have a renown surgeon's intimate knowledge of an aperture to understand the basic concept of how it works...

...Geezer


The fact that you can hold a pencil between your lips is all you kneed to know. The lips can be focused in and out, get it wrong and you've got either a pinched nasty tone, or a breathy unfocused one. Use the optimum balance of aperture and air for the desired register and volume and you have a result.

I've got a little trick to demonstrate aperture; I play a middle F and contract the lips until the tone gets pinched almost to the point of failure, then release slightly. Then holding this set, I play an upwards chromatic scale and as I get above top Bb the tone becomes better as I pass the F and beyond. This is extreme, but it makes a point IMO.

Quote from: Pre59 on Mar 18, 2017, 06:12AM

The fact that you can hold a pencil between your lips is all you kneed to know. The lips can be focused in and out, get it wrong and you've got either a pinched nasty tone, or a breathy unfocused one. Use the optimum balance of aperture and air for the desired register and volume and you have a result.

I've got a little trick to demonstrate aperture; I play a middle F and contract the lips until the tone gets pinched almost to the point of failure, then release slightly. Then holding this set, I play an upwards chromatic scale and as I get above top Bb the tone becomes better as I pass the F and beyond. This is extreme, but it makes a point IMO.


Okay. I got this.



Interesting little exercise! I totally get why you do it or show it to others to do. It re-enforces the concept of control over the size, shape, config of the aperture being probably the single biggest factor in hitting high notes. Shhhhh! This is a deep, dark secret around here. Don't tell anyone else. 

...Geezer

Remember it is an aperture shape not an orifice shape. 

Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 18, 2017, 09:05AMRemember it is an aperture shape not an orifice shape. 

It's both, actually.

But in my case, we won't talk about which orifice.   

...Geezer

...and conversely, play an absolutely normal feeling mid F and holding that shape, play chromatically downwards and listen to the tone. Make no adjustments to compensate for the thinning tone. Caveat, this may vary depending on the bore and mouthpiece size.
When I played a 3B as my main horn I found myself using a smaller aperture in the upper region, whereas now, playing a .480/88 it feels like I'm using a broader aperture to thicken the mid and low notes.

Check out page 6 of Trombonizms, by Bill Watrous/Alan Ralph for further info. And by the way, I wouldn't consider myself to be a "Mic" player..

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 18, 2017, 09:07AMIt's both, actually.

But in my case, we won't talk about which orifice.   

...Geezer

An aperture is a three dimensional tunnel.  An orifice is a two dimensional hole in a thin flat plate. 

Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 19, 2017, 09:02AMAn aperture is a three dimensional tunnel.  An orifice is a two dimensional hole in a thin flat plate. 

Maybe so, but the term "aperture" is used for the embouchure producing the sound.

And it's simply ludicrous to try playing high notes on a pedal tone oral cavity. So the size, shape, etc of the oral cavity must - of necessity - change, as does the aperture.

...Geezer

Quote from: BGuttman on Mar 19, 2017, 09:40AMMaybe so, but the term "aperture" is used for the embouchure producing the sound.

Yes, and that is correct.  The embouchure passage through which air passes is a three dimensional tunnel.  It's not a circle, it's a cylinder (or some variation on that shape.) 

And this pedantry is going where exactly?

That's what I want to know as well.

How is the OP being helped?

I don't mean this rhetorically. How IS the OP being helped with junk science?

...Geezer

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 19, 2017, 05:05PMThat's what I want to know as well.

How is the OP being helped?

I don't mean this rhetorically. How IS the OP being helped with junk science?

...Geezer

I don't think that you can help anybody do anything unless they're willing to get involved and engage in a dialogue..

Quote from: Pre59 on Mar 20, 2017, 03:16AMI don't think that you can help anybody do anything unless they're willing to get involved and engage in a dialogue..


Yeah. That's the other side of the coin. It's a discussion. And since we probably gave good responses some three pages ago, the OP isn't helped by the snarky comment Mr P. made; who never made any positive contributions to this thread in the first place.

Some of us may think higher notes are achieved by re-positioning the horn on the chops (or the chops on the horn - however you wish to think). While others of us may think that higher notes are achieved by concentrating on managing the air stream via the aperture, chops, oral cavity and perhaps even the stomach muscles. Another way may be to select the equipment best suited for playing high; i.e. a smaller-bore horn and possibly either a smaller and/or shallower cupped mouthpiece. Still others may employ a mixed combination of the above three concepts. I really don't know if there is even another way still. Probably, and perhaps that will surface.

...Geezer

Er, whats the value of free advice again?

Quote from: Pre59 on Mar 20, 2017, 07:43AMEr, whats the value of free advice again?

Depends...

If the so-called "advice" is given by an amateur - nil. If the exact same so-called "advice" is given by a pro - tons. It's human nature for people to want good ideas from "good" sources. Otherwise, they are skeptical, and probably rightly so.

How much value do you put on YOUR free advice?

May we return to topic?

...Geezer

I would not have described the aperture as a tunnel rather than a circle if I did not think it had some application to the topic.

I do still think that recommending an exercise, any exercise, without some details on how to do it does not help much. 

I also think that if the high range you're struggling with is F above the staff to high Bb, that may not be the same as struggling with high Bb to alt-F. 

There are those who struggle with alt-F to double F - they can post in some other thread. 

Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 20, 2017, 08:42AMI would not have described the aperture as a tunnel rather than a circle if I did not think it had some application to the topic.

I do still think that recommending an exercise, any exercise, without some details on how to do it does not help much. 

I also think that if the high range you're struggling with is F above the staff to high Bb, that may not be the same as struggling with high Bb to alt-F. 

There are those who struggle with alt-F to double F - they can post in some other thread. 

FWIW and for the purpose of your part in this discussion Tim, I agree with your assertions. Technically. I say, technically the aperture is 3-dimensional, unless the chops are the thickness or less of an electron and we (hopefully) all know they are not, hopefully. But truthfully, I have no clue as to what, if any value your concept has to the OP. It has none for me.

Apparently, the physics of a trombone (or maybe it's human physiology) is such that many of us can attain a good high C and no higher. There appears to be a break at that point and a high D is a whole 'nuther thing, as though there were a couple of rungs missing on the ladder upwards. But yes, I believe the OP's problems lie far below that point and it should be possible for him to correct and ascend rapidly.

...Geezer

Looking back over my posts on this topic I think that I've given some points worth considering, and I don't believe in long posts, I'd rather see how much genuine interest there is first.

As to whether the advice I attempt to give is as an amateur or pro, well, only a few hours ago I was in discussion with my accountant about winding my business up as the latter, and bring it on that's what I say.

But because we're not sat around in the same room with our hooters at the ready, it's all just "flim flam" anyway.

Enjoy your struggle..

Quote from: Pre59 on Mar 20, 2017, 10:09AMLooking back over my posts on this topic I think that I've given some points worth considering, and I don't believe in long posts, I'd rather see how much genuine interest there is first.

As to whether the advice I attempt to give is as an amateur or pro, well, only a few hours ago I was in discussion with my accountant about winding my business up as the latter, and bring it on that's what I say.

But because we're not sat around in the same room with our hooters at the ready, it's all just "flim flam" anyway.

Enjoy your struggle..

I'm never quite sure to whom you are directing all of your comments! You didn't quote me, but you posted directly underneath mine and with no direction as to whomever.  So   

It may have been a struggle for you, but it's growth for me and for - I hope - the OP as well! 

Hopefully we have muddied the waters enough that he will high-tail it to his instructor for guidance, which he should do anyway. 

...Geezer

The aperture is not like a tunnel or a circle. Its more like two roof tiles laid over one another. And depending on your under or overbite, the tiles might overlap a lot or a little bit. The air goes through it sort of like air going over a wing on a plane or through the cut in a flute. Changing the aperture changes how that airflow works.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Mar 21, 2017, 06:53AMThe aperture is not like a tunnel or a circle. Its more like two roof tiles laid over one another. And depending on your under or overbite, the tiles might overlap a lot or a little bit. The air goes through it sort of like air going over a wing on a plane or through the cut in a flute. Changing the aperture changes how that airflow works.

Do you see any narrowing of the width of those tiles (I like that) when ascending? Or does the aperture have one width through all ranges?

...Geezer

Just hit the damn notes, guys 

It's a whole entity with tongue position, jaw position etc IMHO. you can't just change one component, this is not a modular trombone 

Quote from: bonenick on Mar 21, 2017, 07:18AMJust hit the damn notes, guys 

It's a whole entity with tongue position, jaw position etc IMHO. you can't just change one component, this is not a modular trombone 

Lol. Really now. Don't you get  that if the OP and obviously some others could, they would !?! I don't think anyone analyzes what they can  do; they tend to over-analyze what they can't  do.

But yes, it seems to be just as highly coordinated as any other note is. It's just that we've had a LOT more time to establish it on the "other" notes. We've all played those "other" - lower - notes since childhood and have grown into them. We can grow into an upper range, but it always seems to take more time and effort. A real  high range doesn't seem like it's something that can be rushed or flipped on like a light switch.

IOW's, if was easy - everyone would be playing extremely high all day long.

...Geezer

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 21, 2017, 08:41AM A real  high range doesn't seem like it's something that can be rushed or flipped on like a light switch
Absolutely. I found that both on trumpet and trombone, soft playing of slurs and trills helps and forces (if the subject is not doing anything "funny" with his lips setting and mouthpiece placement) us to put everything in place as it should be. But it is not an overnight process. And often first, we get a squeak which eventually develops into a musical sound (note).

Quote from: bonenick on Mar 21, 2017, 08:58AMAbsolutely. I found that both on trumpet and trombone, soft playing of slurs and trills helps and forces (if the subject is not doing anything "funny" with his lips setting and mouthpiece placement) us to put everything in place as it should be. But it is not an overnight process. And often first, we get a squeak which eventually develops into a musical sound (note).

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but part of my problem developing a "professional high range" is the amount of practice time I do every day. This past winter, I have been putting in a solid 4 hours a day; divided more-or-less equally into two sessions - morning and evening. While I am advancing on pretty much all fronts rapidly (under expert instruction!), I am fighting fatigue of high range. Otherwise, I am getting chops of steel and so I guess it's just a matter of time...

Notice I put the term "professional high range" in quotes. Anticipating some of the sharp-shooters calling me on it, I define a "professional high range" as full use of high D for an entry-level tenor pro and advancement on up as the pro seasons. I know there are a number of pros who can not play above high C. But that doesn't change how I view it. YMMV!

...Geezer

Just a little light relief,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJ8tKRlW3E

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 21, 2017, 09:39AM

I can't speak for anyone else, but part of my problem developing a "professional high range" is the amount of practice time I do every day. This past winter, I have been putting in a solid 4 hours a day; divided more-or-less equally into two sessions - morning and evening. While I am advancing on pretty much all fronts rapidly (under expert instruction!), I am fighting fatigue of high range. Otherwise, I am getting chops of steel and so I guess it's just a matter of time...

Notice I put the term "professional high range" in quotes. Anticipating some of the sharp-shooters calling me on it, I define a "professional high range" as full use of high D for an entry-level tenor pro and advancement on up as the pro seasons. I know there are a number of pros who can not play above high C. But that doesn't change how I view it. YMMV!

...Geezer

The POINT is that the OP - if he is an industrious student - might be in the same boat. He may be practicing his butt off and wondering why his range is - in his opinion - lagging. It's a dilemma I have often chaffed about; the amount of time needed on the horn for technical gains vs the amount of rest time the chops need to build back up. They seem to interfere with each other. I don't see piano players lamenting about sore fingers, hand and wrists - or do they?

...Geezer

Many are the pianists who have been reduced to back, shoulder, neck, and carpal tunnel surgeries. The list goes on. Every instrument has some level of particular physical barrier.

Quote from: MrPillow on Mar 21, 2017, 11:23AMMany are the pianists who have been reduced to back, shoulder, neck, and carpal tunnel surgeries. The list goes on. Every instrument has some level of particular physical barrier.

This is why doing it right is so important, and speaks to having proper instruction. A small physical error in one's playing, carried over years of repetition, can do real harm. I'm self-taught on piano (learned it by accident writing big band charts) and was lucky enough to stumble into a way of playing that doesn't hurt my body. It doesn't hurt that I play half as many notes as a good player.

My friend, who's much better than I, has all kinds of hand problems and calls me for two-keyboard gigs as his 'right-hand man' when things are acting up.

I played Holiday Inns for years with a guitar player who started having physical problems. Turned out to be the way he was standing. When you do six-nighters, that stuff matters. He's older than I am, and is very careful how he stands, and still plays.

I would suggest anyone who plays a lot of hours should have professional instruction, because no instrument is worth crippling yourself over.

I found that frequent but short rests do a lot more good (at least to me) than long rest after long periods of playing with no rest.

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 17, 2017, 09:17AMPerhaps a good discussion on playing high ought to involve how we condition our bodies in general as well as our minds.
...Geezer

The main conditioning for high range should be in the biceps. If your teeth aren't moving, you're not using enough pressure.

I heard a story in my home country (Bulgaria) about a trumpet student/bodybuilder who was so stressed during an exam that he grabbed the valves of his trumpet so hard, that he broke the valve casing....

          

Eye-opening responses!

I guess it's all mind-over-matter. If your chops don't mind, it doesn't matter.

...Geezer

The OP hasn't been back, so there you go.

They'll be a similar topic around soon, it keeps the forum alive..

Quote from: Pre59 on Mar 21, 2017, 02:12PMThe OP hasn't been back, so there you go.

They'll be a similar topic around soon, it keeps the forum alive..

Yeah, but how do you hit high notes?

Seriously, someone told me that playing falset tones improves high register, and I think it works. Not sure why.

Have you tried helium?

Quote from: Piano man on Mar 21, 2017, 09:57PMYeah, but how do you hit high notes?

Piano man, if you want to have a discourse on this, and by that I mean an exchange of Q and A's, I'm more than happy to share my personal view how I build and maintain my range.

Actually "Hit" is a very poor choice of a word for that.

Hitting and banging notes in the high register in a high adrenalin fashion is going hardly to do develop anything besides tendinits or lip/muscle injuries.

Low adrenalin soft playing of slurs and trills in a well controled fashion with as little effort as possible with frequent and short rest is likely to develop the high register on any brass instrument.

Quote from: Pre59 on Mar 22, 2017, 03:59AMPiano man, if you want to have a discourse on this, and by that I mean an exchange of Q and A's, I'm more than happy to share my personal view how I build and maintain my range.

I was joking. I am a returning player (and barely that) and the one thing that wasn't a challenge for me after all those years was range. High range was actually easier for me right out of the gate than before I quit playing. Endurance, not so much. So now I'm a really lousy trombonist who can play high notes.

I was serious about false tones, though. Somebody told me that when I was in high school and it seems to help.

Quote from: Piano man on Mar 22, 2017, 11:35AMI was joking. I am a returning player (and barely that) and the one thing that wasn't a challenge for me after all those years was range. High range was actually easier for me right out of the gate than before I quit playing. Endurance, not so much. So now I'm a really lousy trombonist who can play high notes.

I was serious about false tones, though. Somebody told me that when I was in high school and it seems to help.

Fair enough. I guess focusing on mid range long tones etc is the way to go, but you may need to find a way to integrate your high range into the rest of your playing. For this, I use a form of lip flexibilities which are not so linear as the standard form. i.e. not going down the slide 1234567 etc. I break up the positions like, 1324357 or 14 25 36 with reverse directions, and flexing in different directions as well, which is musically more satisfying and useful.

Actually, I read about using falset tones in an exercise by the late Paul Tanner.  Sorry he's no longer here to defend himself but one of his students used to post messages from him on the Forum.

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but pardon me if I remain a skeptic about developing high range without playing high. Is it like "The art of fighting without fighting" - Bruce Lee in "Enter The Dragon". lol

...Geezer

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 22, 2017, 01:21PMThis isn't directed at anyone in particular, but pardon me if I remain a skeptic about developing high range without playing high. ...Geezer
My teacher, the late Lewis Van Haney, was the all about practicing in the registers, up and down, that you need to play in.  He insisted that that upper register was built on a combo of air support, and embrochure, and that the embrochure DID change somewhat is the registers of the notes went up and down.  He showed me, as did Phil Wilson, that  proper support would easily give you a high note, even with out loads of air.

Quote from: ssking2b on Mar 22, 2017, 01:33PMMy teacher, the late Lewis Van Haney, was the all about practicing in the registers, up and down, that you need to play in.  He insisted that that upper register was built on a combo of air support, and embrochure, and that the embrochure DID change somewhat is the registers of the notes went up and down.  He showed me, as did Phil Wilson, that  proper support would easily give you a high note, even with out loads of air.

Please define "proper support" b/c I am led to believe there are some here who erroneously feel there is no need for it.

...Geezer