TromboneChat

I remember when Kenton and Ferguson did jazz arrangements of pop tunes in the 70's,
critics labelled it as "Bad Jazz". (as in sub par)

Quote from: cb56 on Mar 05, 2017, 06:03AMI remember when Kenton and Ferguson did jazz arrangements of pop tunes in the 70's,
critics labelled it as "Bad Jazz". (as in sub par)

Yes. See! It has that stigma. I blame the eggheads. lol

So far, almost no one has the "right" (my) concept of pop music performed in a jazz format. The closest on this thread is NO BS, Lucky Chops and the Palermo Band. Almost everyone - in their attempt to argue my point - has validated my point by showing examples of other music being played in a jazz format and trying to pass it off as pop music being played in a jazz format!

I mean, I appreciate all the input, though!!!!! It made for some interesting interludes during practice session rest breaks.

...Geezer

Quote from: cb56 on Mar 05, 2017, 06:03AMI remember when Kenton and Ferguson did jazz arrangements of pop tunes in the 70's,
critics labelled it as "Bad Jazz". (as in sub par)

Even badder...

https://www.youtube.com/v/41v0eWL5L4I

"Too Marvelous For Words".

...Geezer

I'm chiming in as much to have this in my feed as to add much of substance. I think it was Glen Miller who said, "There is no such thing as a bad song, only bad arrangements". Not sure I can get totally behind the sentiment, but I have actually heard versions of "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" and "After the Lovin'" that were not horrible, so.......

Is Dave Gibson's arrangement of "Here Comes the Sun" off his latest album along the lines of what you are seeking?

I'm kinda with you on a lot of what you're saying. I am constantly looking for charts for my septet book that are not the standard "GAS" repertoire. Because the instrumental septet isn't done much anymore, it is largely a futile search. When I do find something a bit more "up to date" it is something like "Red Clay" or "Footprints". Wish I had the arranging chops to try to do some Bruno Mars or Michael Franti.

I guess it's up to the jazz musician(s).  There are lots of pop songs out there that could be turned into jazz studies.

Here is a simple Big Band arrangement of one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfmCEAXgX_o

That particular arrangement is rather, well, simple/easy/dull.  Far more could be done with that melody in the right hands.  We played a concert band arrangement that was really quite nice.

Where there's a will there's a way.

Quote from: Russ White on Mar 05, 2017, 07:23AMI'm chiming in as much to have this in my feed as to add much of substance. I think it was Glen Miller who said, "There is no such thing as a bad song, only bad arrangements". Not sure I can get totally behind the sentiment, but I have actually heard versions of "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" and "After the Lovin'" that were not horrible, so.......

Is Dave Gibson's arrangement of "Here Comes the Sun" off his latest album along the lines of what you are seeking?

I'm kinda with you on a lot of what you're saying. I am constantly looking for charts for my septet book that are not the standard "GAS" repertoire. Because the instrumental septet isn't done much anymore, it is largely a futile search. When I do find something a bit more "up to date" it is something like "Red Clay" or "Footprints". Wish I had the arranging chops to try to do some Bruno Mars or Michael Franti.


YEP!

I'll take a listen to Dave's arrangement a bit later; in a practice session right now.

Have you tried "Blue Bayou", "My Blue Heaven", or "Every Breath You Take"? They aren't the most current anymore, but they are still pretty cool tunes and I think there is some wiggle room in them for improv & such. I kinda like Jim Croce's "I've Got A Name" as well. But jack the temp way up to like 180 bpm. I actually think a talented trombone player could do some pretty cool legato double-tonguing on the chorus of this song. Simple tune but maybe has some potential and is very easily recognized by almost any audience. Trouble is with some of these "classic" pop tunes is that they get beaten to death in supermarkets and discount department stores.

P.S. Maybe try "You Are So Beautiful"? The trick on this short and repeated chorus is to change it up every time. Vocalists have the drop on us that way 'cuz the lyrics change.

P.P.S. I also think a variety of mutes is so essential as to be absolutely required. And FWIW, I also believe that a more delicate approach trumps a heavy beefcake approach on playing contemporary pop tunes.

P.P.P.S. I don't think I found the right Gibson recording, as the one I found was pretty straight.

P.P.P.P.S. I personally think a jazz arrangement of Aerosmith's "Dream On" would be fantastic, but you will have to find a brass virtuoso who could handle that immense octave jump near the end, which is one of the hooks in that song!!!!!!

...Geezer

Quote from: BillO on Mar 05, 2017, 07:25AMI guess it's up to the jazz musician(s).  There are lots of pop songs out there that could be turned into jazz studies.

Here is a simple Big Band arrangement of one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfmCEAXgX_o

That particular arrangement is rather, well, simple/easy/dull.  Far more could be done with that melody in the right hands.  We played a concert band arrangement that was really quite nice.

Where there's a will there's a way.

That's nice and it's pretty much how we play it in street band. I think our's is the Paul Murtha arrangement. Great seasonal pop tune and that's what I'm kinda talking about - but I would like a more jazz arrangement featuring improvs and such - as you mentioned.

...Geezer

I'm going to guess that source material like "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" and "Here Comes the Sun" do not evoke the smoky, film noir mood that most jazz artists are aiming for.

Quote from: robcat2075 on Mar 05, 2017, 09:21AMI'm going to guess that source material like "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" and "Here Comes the Sun" do not evoke the smoky, film noir mood that most jazz artists are aiming for.


Prob'ly not. But then again, that smoky nightclub atmosphere doesn't necessarily have to be the poster-child for jazz either. Jazz can be cool at high noon as well - if it's done right. I put away my turtleneck sweater, martini glass and cigarette a LONG time ago 'cuz I don't want to be stuck in the past.

...Geezer

Quote from: robcat2075 on Mar 05, 2017, 09:21AMI'm going to guess that source material like "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" and "Here Comes the Sun" do not evoke the smoky, film noir mood that most jazz artists are aiming for.


Funny you should mention "Tie A Yellow Ribbon". Certainly not smoky mood but it was quite popular in the 60s hot jazz genre that most folks would call Dixieland. My favourite hot band Alex Welsh recorded it - as did Kenny Ball and Joe "Fingers" Webster. I have them all in my CD collection. The Joe "Fingers" Webster & The Swing Fever Big Band version is a bit 'jazzy pop' but at least it has a trombone-stated melody and it is a swing rhythm. Not deep film noir jazz however:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV7cs3zbV_E

Quote from: Graham Martin on Mar 05, 2017, 03:40PMFunny you should mention "Tie A Yellow Ribbon". Certainly not smoky mood but it was quite popular in the 60s hot jazz genre that most folks would call Dixieland. My favourite hot band Alex Welsh recorded it - as did Kenny Ball and Joe "Fingers" Webster. I have them all in my CD collection. The Joe "Fingers" Webster & The Swing Fever Big Band version is a bit 'jazzy pop' but at least it has a trombone-stated melody and it is a swing rhythm. Not deep film noir jazz however:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV7cs3zbV_E

Well good morning! I've been waiting for your input and you did not disappoint!

Dang it! See! I've always thought that a talented group/performer could take the corniest song of all time and make it sound like a million bucks! BRAVO! BRAVO! Okay, I know the jazz style may be a bit dated, but he made his point and so have you.

...Geezer

I don't think it is accurate to say that jazz artists play the same old stuff. Some? Sure

Maybe you aren't listening to a wider range of recordings. Are you talking local players? Jam sessions?

Quote from: slide advantage on Mar 05, 2017, 04:03PMI don't think it is accurate to say that jazz artists play the same old stuff. Some? Sure

Maybe you aren't listening to a wider range of recordings. Are you talking local players? Jam sessions?


It's a global impression I have. It may - admittedly - be faulty. But I think there has been a lot of merit in this discussion never-the-less.

...Geezer

I'm afraid I am a little late to this thread but...

Geezer, I completely respect your point, but I disagree where you say that new music should be made, and we should not rely so heavily on the oldies.  

New music is a necessity, and it is always being made, but in jazz particularly, the old songs are truly what jazz is.

To me personally, jazz is much more than a type of music, is is a culture and feeling, and that feeling is best captured by the eras that truly defined the genre.  So the old tunes might be overused at some points, but they are often the tunes that really define and show what jazz is.

I believe that you cannot play music, especially jazz, if you do not understand and appreciate it's history. (This sounds like I am pointing fingers, but I am not, as I am high school age and some of the people on this forum are amazing musicians...)

But jazz is a culture, much more than music, and I do not think that you can truly play jazz unless you are fully part of the culture, and you can feel the music.  

This, of course, stretches across all eras of the music, but I think it is in the older tunes, the classics, that jazz is truly formed and where it is best felt.

I'm sure someone understands what I am trying to say, but I find that you cannot describe it with words.


Thanks,

T

Quote from: TomBone4 on Mar 05, 2017, 04:07PMI'm afraid I am a little late to this thread but...

Geezer, I completely respect your point, but I disagree where you say that new music should be made, and we should not rely so heavily on the oldies.  

New music is a necessity, and it is always being made, but in jazz particularly, the old songs are truly what jazz is.

To me personally, jazz is much more than a type of music, is is a culture and feeling, and that feeling is best captured by the eras that truly defined the genre.  So the old tunes might be overused at some points, but they are often the tunes that really define and show what jazz is.

I believe that you cannot play music, especially jazz, if you do not understand and appreciate it's history. (This sounds like I am pointing fingers, but I am not, as I am high school age and some of the people on this forum are amazing musicians...)

But jazz is a culture, much more than music, and I do not think that you can truly play jazz unless you are fully part of the culture, and you can feel the music.  

This, of course, stretches across all eras of the music, but I think it is in the older tunes, the classics, that jazz is truly formed and where it is best felt.

I'm sure someone understands what I am trying to say, but I find that you cannot describe it with words.


Thanks,

T

No, that's fine. You're making a solid point. I get it. I just want to hear more contemporary pop tunes played in a jazz format. I'm hungry for that and I think it's a market that is overlooked in favor of the more traditional stuff. And when I state "pop", I mean what's hot on Billboard Top 100. Others have a different definition of "pop" and I guess that's due to what the Boston Pops Orchestra and their like play. To me, that's "classical pop" - of the Gershwin ilk. Nice stuff. Not what I mean, though.

...Geezer

Lester Bowie's Brass Fantasy: Avant Pop

Forgot about that one. Includes a few reinterpretations of well-known pop songs. Steve Turre and Bob Stewart play on this one. I'll have to dig out my copy for a listen tomorrow. Completely irrelevant story... I once had a fourth grade student who mentioned that he lived in Bowie's old house in Brooklyn. He knew that I had an interest in brass-playing jazz musicians and was excited that I was one of the few people he encountered who was familiar with Bowie.

Quote from: vito on Mar 05, 2017, 04:20PMLester Bowie's Brass Fantasy: Avant Pop

Forgot about that one. Includes a few reinterpretations of well-known pop songs. Steve Turre and Bob Stewart play on this one. I'll have to dig out my copy for a listen tomorrow. Completely irrelevant story... I once had a fourth grade student who mentioned that he lived in Bowie's old house in Brooklyn. He knew that I had an interest in brass-playing jazz musicians and was excited that I was one of the few people he encountered who was familiar with Bowie.

I did a quick sample of Lester; I'm in a practice session right now. I think there is a lot of merit for a deep listen a little later.

Thanks!

...Geezer

on jazzing things up... there's a CD out there somewhere of jazz-harmony accompaniments to the Bordogni vocalises. Same melodies, new harmonies.

The one sample I heard was effective. The original Bordogni accomps tend to be pretty ordinary stuff... four chords, maybe five. So maybe it would be feasible to take ordinary pop and do something with it if you had to.

Quote from: robcat2075 on Mar 05, 2017, 04:39PMon jazzing things up... there's a CD out there somewhere of jazz-harmony accompaniments to the Bordogni vocalises. Same melodies, new harmonies.

The one sample I heard was effective. The original Bordogni accomps tend to be pretty ordinary stuff... four chords, maybe five. So maybe it would be feasible to take ordinary pop and do something with it if you had to.


I mean, yeah. So what it has only four chords. "Little Bitty Pretty One" only has one chord - F. Try doing THAT one in a jazz combo. It could be done, but I believe the approach should be for the combo to come out of their mold and do some hand-jiving and acapella singing for at least part of the accompaniment, while they take turns wailing away on the melody line.

...Geezer

Modal pop?

In my band, I play maybe 75% or more originals of my own originals. But I treasure jazz standards. Timeless songs are worthy or reinterpretation (and respect).

Of course there are a lot of standards that have almost become hackneyed and trite because they are overplayed.

But I view it as a challenge to make the old tunes fresh. Reframe them via arrangement. Change the meter, even use mixed meters on some. Change the groove, etc. I like to use latin grooves on standards for instance. Nothing ground breaking I know, but it does liven tunes up and sets them apart.

Listen to how JJ interpreted standards for instance. Imagination goes a long way.

Quote from: growlerbox on Mar 05, 2017, 05:33PMModal pop?

I prefer soda pop!

Quote from: slide advantage on Mar 05, 2017, 06:00PMIn my band, I play maybe 75% or more originals of my own originals. But I treasure jazz standards. Timeless songs are worthy or reinterpretation (and respect).

Of course there are a lot of standards that have almost become hackneyed and trite because they are overplayed.

But I view it as a challenge to make the old tunes fresh. Reframe them via arrangement. Change the meter, even use mixed meters on some. Change the groove, etc. I like to use latin grooves on standards for instance. Nothing ground breaking I know, but it does liven tunes up and sets them apart.

Listen to how JJ interpreted standards for instance. Imagination goes a long way.

I understand the challenge. I've heard artists do fresh takes of older stuff. I think Bob Dylan did it at a recent event with an older song and he did a bang-up job. But I think it takes a giant of an artist to do it well and gain national respect. In the world of brass players, who would that currently be?

...Geezer

Hey Geez - Check out some of the stuff Nils Landgren does. His duo albums with guitars has some great stuff, as does the album he did with Joe Sample.....

https://www.discogs.com/Nils-Landgren-Joe-Sample-Creole-Love-Call/release/651276

Or, maybe..............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH3jMBfZixA

Quote from: Russ White on Mar 05, 2017, 06:46PMHey Geez - Check out some of the stuff Nils Landgren does. His duo albums with guitars has some great stuff, as does the album he did with Joe Sample.....

https://www.discogs.com/Nils-Landgren-Joe-Sample-Creole-Love-Call/release/651276

Or, maybe..............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH3jMBfZixA

Some pretty nice stuff. I'll want to hear more brass, but I can't argue with the arrangements. Bookmark-worthy!

As I listen to more of his work, I'm delighted to find beautiful trombone solos embedded in a lot of selections.

When I come across a trombone solo gem in one of the selections, I'm very pleased to hear what I refer to as an "alternate melody" being played through the chord progression. It's an "alternate melody" that is every bit as beautiful or even more so than the original melody and is something that would never occur to me. That's inspiring!

...Geezer

One of the nice things I see going on in this thread, are contributions from members I haven't seen contributions from on any of the other threads I gawk at. 

...Geezer

Quote from: Russ White on Mar 05, 2017, 06:46PMHey Geez - Check out some of the stuff Nils Landgren does. His duo albums with guitars has some great stuff, as does the album he did with Joe Sample.....

https://www.discogs.com/Nils-Landgren-Joe-Sample-Creole-Love-Call/release/651276

Or, maybe..............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH3jMBfZixA

Yeah! I am a big Nils Landgren fan and have been for quite a few years. I've posted a few of his videos in YouTube Trombonists.

Quote from: Graham Martin on Dec 21, 2012, 06:22AMWhenever I do any kind of a search on the internet for anything about jazz and trombones, I get bombarded with Nils Landgren YouTubes. But, you know, he grows on you and I find myself selecting more and more of the tunes he does and playing them in a similar style. I even like his tone, although I think it is sometimes spoiled by the electronics he hangs of the back of his trombone.

Then there are his vocals...... But, to tell the truth, they also get you in after a while. I guess I have become a bit of a fan:

"Sentimental Journey":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgcP-4orhgk

"One Day I'll Fly Away", with Joe Sample who wrote it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCItZ0RJmmc

"Killing Me Softly":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35lyTYabAZo&playnext=1&list=AL94UKMTqg-9Baq3vBbIS4GcJCawOJ8vt-

"Oh, You Crazy Moon":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4cIG_VnRxw&list=AL94UKMTqg-9Baq3vBbIS4GcJCawOJ8vt-

"There Goes My Heart":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vzEYGyxL4g&list=AL94UKMTqg-9Baq3vBbIS4GcJCawOJ8vt-

"Moon River":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rw0Uea0oJk&list=AL94UKMTqg-9Baq3vBbIS4GcJCawOJ8vt-

I am not too keen on the funk unit and the jump suit, however.



Most of the time these days he fronts a Funk Unit which is legitimate crossover pop and jazz. But the ones he does on his own, or with his female vocalist (wife?) are fine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWA6XSRD80Q

Nice discussion.
I'd second listening to Esperanza Spalding- also Kamisai Washington and Thundercat. Wonderful modern jazz (but few trombones).
Most of the "standards" that jazz players messed with were old songs- they played them because they were well known and had interesting chords, among other things. I'm not sure they were ever "pop" songs.
A couple of people have mentioned Radiohead- their stuff seems very promising for "jazz" treatment. I think there is even a Hal Leonard (?) book with arrangements that could be "jazzed" very easily.
Modern popular music is not "known" in the same way that, say, Cole Porter songs or Beatles songs were. Most older people I know have never heard of Drake for example but he is wildly popular as a streaming artist (and fabulous as well...).
My votes for modern pop music suitable for jazz treatment would be Adele's "21" album and more recently Beyonce's "Lemonade". Both full of songs that are  interesting, catchy and well known.

Rob.

If anyone can track down that Bordogni CD I'd love a copy.....

Quote from: RobCrowdy on Mar 06, 2017, 01:37AMNice discussion.
I'd second listening to Esperanza Spalding- also Kamisai Washington and Thundercat. Wonderful modern jazz (but few trombones).
Most of the "standards" that jazz players messed with were old songs- they played them because they were well known and had interesting chords, among other things. I'm not sure they were ever "pop" songs.
A couple of people have mentioned Radiohead- their stuff seems very promising for "jazz" treatment. I think there is even a Hal Leonard (?) book with arrangements that could be "jazzed" very easily.
Modern popular music is not "known" in the same way that, say, Cole Porter songs or Beatles songs were. Most older people I know have never heard of Drake for example but he is wildly popular as a streaming artist (and fabulous as well...).
My votes for modern pop music suitable for jazz treatment would be Adele's "21" album and more recently Beyonce's "Lemonade". Both full of songs that are  interesting, catchy and well known.

Rob.


Hmmmmmmmmmm. I personally think a little Adele goes a long way, but sounds like you are suggesting "Deep Tracks Pop"! Those albums sell by the zillions to ipodists, so you are definitely appealing to a very young crowd. But would that young crowd tolerate their music morphing to a jazz format? 

...Geezer

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 06, 2017, 05:34AMHmmmmmmmmmm. I personally think a little Adele goes a long way, but sounds like you are suggesting "Deep Tracks Pop"! Those albums sell by the zillions to ipodists, so you are definitely appealing to a very young crowd. But would that young crowd tolerate their music morphing to a jazz format? 

...Geezer

One way to find out.

Quote from: Russ White on Mar 06, 2017, 05:46AMOne way to find out.


YES!

I'm also wondering if anyone (other than my little pathetic efforts) has explored Doo-Wop in a jazz format. The tunes are dated to the 50's, but seem to still be popular sometimes at wedding receptions, in small doses.

...Geezer

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 04, 2017, 07:10AMIf it's what you like exclusively...

If your group is out there playing for an older population - then, yeah, by all means play what the audience wants to hear! Would you play those tunes exclusively at a wedding reception for a young bride & groom? Maybe a given one if they are doing a retro thing. But otherwise, I think you better have some newer stuff ready.

...Geezer
Unfortunately most young Brides and Grooms aren't hiring live musicians anymore.  Without computer backing tracks and other tricks you would have a hard time producing a lot of today's popular music in a live setting.  Most of the weddings (which are few and far between) we get are for much older couples.  Yes we need a few 50's 60's rock tunes but if you're a jazz combo or big band you're probably not playing a lot of weddings these days. Most of our paying jobs these days are senior centers and nursing homes and they want to hear what they heard when they were younger.  They want the standards!! 

There are plenty of jazz musicians who are recording more contemporary music, and using pop tunes to improvise on.  Most of us learned to play jazz by doing the standards the challenge was to take that old tune and chord progression and try to do something new and fresh with it.  A lot of it depends on your market.  If you are in NY City or LA there is probably a market that is much more accepting of jazz musicians reaching out doing something new.  Even in the rock world unless you are a very well established band if you want to get one of the few paying jobs out there you have to do primarily covers or you won't get numbers in the seats (which typically means you won't get paid).  I went to hear a friend not to long ago who put together a Jazz group that was very talented, great improvisers, top notch players, and they were doing all original stuff there venue (a large coffee shop that routinely has live music) did a great job of advertising it, they all put it on facebook, and other social media, there was 20 people who stayed to listed all friends and family of the band. If you want to make money playing you are limited by your market and what they are willing to pay for.     

This doesn't happen just in jazz. I have a friend who has had season tickets to the Seattle Opera for 10+ years and she has complained about the company doing the same few operas over and over. Ask a symphony player how many times they have done Shaherazade.

Yesterday I was in a Walmart parking lot and heard a trombone player wailing away.

Turned out he was a college kid taking advantage of the flow of traffic to make a few bucks.  He was playing simple melodies by ear with a little bit of Dixieland style embellishment, nothing fancy (nothing high or fiddly, as RHM used to say).  He was doing Saints as I was loading my car. 

I walked over and put a couple dollars in the case and chatted briefly, seemed like a nice kid.  As I left I said hey, give me Basin Street on the way out.  He said what's that? 

Geezer would have been proud.

Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 06, 2017, 07:33AMYesterday I was in a Walmart parking lot and heard a trombone player wailing away.

Turned out he was a college kid taking advantage of the flow of traffic to make a few bucks.  He was playing simple melodies by ear with a little bit of Dixieland style embellishment, nothing fancy (nothing high or fiddly, as RHM used to say).  He was doing Saints as I was loading my car. 

I walked over and put a couple dollars in the case and chatted briefly, seemed like a nice kid.  As I left I said hey, give me Basin Street on the way out.  He said what's that? 

Geezer would have been proud.

Cool! I always stop to put a few bucks into the case, even if it's a trumpet player. 

...Geezer pride. 

Quote from: Radar on Mar 06, 2017, 06:30AMUnfortunately most young Brides and Grooms aren't hiring live musicians anymore.  Without computer backing tracks and other tricks you would have a hard time producing a lot of today's popular music in a live setting.  Most of the weddings (which are few and far between) we get are for much older couples.  Yes we need a few 50's 60's rock tunes but if you're a jazz combo or big band you're probably not playing a lot of weddings these days. Most of our paying jobs these days are senior centers and nursing homes and they want to hear what they heard when they were younger.  They want the standards!! 

There are plenty of jazz musicians who are recording more contemporary music, and using pop tunes to improvise on.  Most of us learned to play jazz by doing the standards the challenge was to take that old tune and chord progression and try to do something new and fresh with it.  A lot of it depends on your market.  If you are in NY City or LA there is probably a market that is much more accepting of jazz musicians reaching out doing something new.  Even in the rock world unless you are a very well established band if you want to get one of the few paying jobs out there you have to do primarily covers or you won't get numbers in the seats (which typically means you won't get paid).  I went to hear a friend not to long ago who put together a Jazz group that was very talented, great improvisers, top notch players, and they were doing all original stuff there venue (a large coffee shop that routinely has live music) did a great job of advertising it, they all put it on facebook, and other social media, there was 20 people who stayed to listed all friends and family of the band. If you want to make money playing you are limited by your market and what they are willing to pay for.     

I'm always looking for input from those who do this thing or something like it or know someone who does. Yes, NY & LA are probably more accommodating. Otherwise, it's probably best to stay with the safe approach, even if it's not what you really want to do.

But I just can't get the notion out of my head, though that a mixed audience of today would like to see artists performing jazz that is more within the age group of said audience. The older folk are leaving us. The young folk don't really care for their parents' music. How many of us rolled our eyes at our parents' worshiping of Lawrence Welk? I sure did. It was a huge turn-off for me and still is, even though I would run out of my room to the TV set when I heard Bob Havens play.

...Geezer   

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 06, 2017, 07:40AMCool! I always stop to put a few bucks into the case, even if it's a trumpet player. 

...Geezer pride. 

Seriously, though, a trombone player who never heard of Basin Street?  I should have taken dollars OUT of his case!

the common  jazz tunes  go back  maybe to 1900??????
---------------
many come  from broadway musicals --there  is something  to the lyrics -and melody lines
  a more modern flow  of melodies  is  coming  from  movie writing   //disney  especially
a revived genre is  the  new orleans [original based  bands or clones]
  there are current  melodies  --dont forget country and western for source  material
if you  have a jazz  band and  manage to draw a crowd
   go ahead and crank up the amps  and go WAY --OUT   OFF THE  PAGE  let the guitarist  keyboard
tenor stretch out on freeform  non structured  explorations
     dont blame me ---if  everybody splits
i dont get around much anymore ---------too much you tube--
    once  in awhile ---you might  like  three notes
tall paul--is  not  the only innovater
 ============
bobby   brookmeyer  did  a lot in  europe ///erling kroner
afro cuban////latin  forms  -------WHAT IS JAZZ ?????????????????
-------------------
   a  girl came  to the studio  to check out  a 3b
she reads fantastically  --her intrepretation is SQUARE   --we played some hal leonard duets
 i dug up jj transcriptions  ///the  miles   book //couldnt  find bird book //
put  JAZZ  FRAGMENT  studies up ///
  well  there  were lots of old  moldies  she didnt  know
------------
  as a player of limits  it is  way more enjoyable  to play  moldy standards
when sitting in    than attempting  to follow  an esoteric set of changes  composed  by an alto player
 ///the explorers are  still  writing  exploring  --
go ahead  --hit a bonerama  gig 
 mike dease ---david gibson   clark gayton-
lx isles  andy martin paul nowell
   so is  jazz   more  modern   in a  big band  setting 
   or  a  combo   trio  or single  act
i had guitarist  friends  who  had written hundreds   of songs
   a  piano  player    or percussionist
where  are  the  boundaries ??????????????????????
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while  in college  i did some jazz combos
 a very talented classical  guitaarist and first chair violinists trmpt sax bass drum
a stuck up snotty  punk alto  player too good to come  to rehearsals
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 and a room mate guitarist/composer
 composing very unique music  with unguessable chord progressions
at that  time -it was-new wave new age-and the schoolie combo  seemed  very very stale
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  accoustic guitar///conn valve 5g section a bell fittedw  mellophone flare
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 the horn style --a flowing melodic played as improvisational classic-with a melodic [head] fold formed and  forged    in pattern welded   crystalline  detents
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    western swing  anybody  ??????????????????????????????????
   



Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 06, 2017, 07:33AMYesterday I was in a Walmart parking lot and heard a trombone player wailing away.

Turned out he was a college kid taking advantage of the flow of traffic to make a few bucks.  He was playing simple melodies by ear with a little bit of Dixieland style embellishment, nothing fancy (nothing high or fiddly, as RHM used to say).  He was doing Saints as I was loading my car. 

I walked over and put a couple dollars in the case and chatted briefly, seemed like a nice kid.  As I left I said hey, give me Basin Street on the way out.  He said what's that? 

Geezer would have been proud.

Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 06, 2017, 08:24AMSeriously, though, a trombone player who never heard of Basin Street?  I should have taken dollars OUT of his case!

It didn't raise my eyebrows. Why should a youngster know that moldy-oldy. There is so much competition for a young mind's attention that only those things getting hyped the most are going to break through the haze. Who is hyping BSB? Now if Adele did a rendition... But don't get your hopes up. She won't. She would sing at a cat fight, but she won't sing THAT.

...Geezer

The assumption that contemporary jazz artists are rehashing old tunes is plain wrong. Take a sample of any of the jazz released in the past ten years and you will find the majority of it is new original music, or at the least a new arrangement of a standard. It's really important to check out the older music because it's really good, but if you don't like it, of course you can do whatever you want. Who cares what a teacher thinks of your music if you are truly committed to it. Take the band Kneebody, for example. They have said their band was made as an offshoot of having to learn old tunes; a rebellion from it. They are very successful and in my opinion have created an entirely new sound.

Jazz is really the only music that is constantly changing and pushing itself forward; it's written into its DNA. Of course you should learn the lineage, but to have your own voice and to be your own musician is paramount.  There are certain people who will say otherwise, and I for one absolutely love someone who can emulate styles of yesteryear, I practice that constantly, but there will always be a big push for jazz musicians to change the music.

Quote from: ntap on Mar 06, 2017, 10:21AMThe assumption that contemporary jazz artists are rehashing old tunes is plain wrong. Take a sample of any of the jazz released in the past ten years and you will find the majority of it is new original music, or at the least a new arrangement of a standard. It's really important to check out the older music because it's really good, but if you don't like it, of course you can do whatever you want. Who cares what a teacher thinks of your music if you are truly committed to it. Take the band Kneebody, for example. They have said their band was made as an offshoot of having to learn old tunes; a rebellion from it. They are very successful and in my opinion have created an entirely new sound.

Jazz is really the only music that is constantly changing and pushing itself forward; it's written into its DNA. Of course you should learn the lineage, but to have your own voice and to be your own musician is paramount.  There are certain people who will say otherwise, and I for one absolutely love someone who can emulate styles of yesteryear, I practice that constantly, but there will always be a big push for jazz musicians to change the music.

With all due respect, what I highlighted in red seems contradictory.

I understand the need for a serious student to study the classics. That pedagogy crosses lines in many, many disciplines. But then apply the learned stylistic playing to contemporary stuff for a contemporary non-schooled audience.

The future is in the youth of today. That's a meme. But it seems a no-brainer to me that artists should be playing to them and not to each other. Or why not both. I can still envision room for the artist to perform in such a way that I can appreciate the depth of what said artist might be doing while the more schooled of us is regarding what he is actually playing as superficial stuff. And what I discovered yesterday is that Nils Langren's playing seems to fill both needs.

In Tim's anecdote in a post above, my eyebrows were more raised that he would ask the young man to play something so from the past and I wonder if it may be because Tim wasn't up to speed on more contemporary music. Who is at fault there, the young man for not knowing a "classic" or Tim for possibly not knowing anything other than that?

...Geezer

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 06, 2017, 09:36AM
Who is hyping BSB?

...Geezer

Not hyping it, but I played it on a gig last night with a really good fee, plus a £20 tip and the best steak meal that I've had in a long time. That's one of the reasons why..

I just played a gig with a big band behind Conrad Herwig. No old stuff there and we had a full house who ate it up.

Quote from: ntap on Mar 06, 2017, 10:21AMThe assumption that contemporary jazz artists are rehashing old tunes is plain wrong. Take a sample of any of the jazz released in the past ten years and you will find the majority of it is new original music, or at the least a new arrangement of a standard...

But note that in that 10 years jazz music recording sales have declined to lower numbers than even... classical music.

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 06, 2017, 11:11AMWith all due respect, what I highlighted in red seems contradictory.

I understand the need for a serious student to study the classics. That pedagogy crosses lines in many, many disciplines. But then apply the learned stylistic playing to contemporary stuff for a contemporary non-schooled audience.

The future is in the youth of today. That's a meme. But it seems a no-brainer to me that artists should be playing to them and not to each other. Or why not both. I can still envision room for the artist to perform in such a way that I can appreciate the depth of what said artist might be doing while the more schooled of us is regarding what he is actually playing as superficial stuff. And what I discovered yesterday is that Nils Langren's playing seems to fill both needs.

I might be missing something - are you saying you wish jazz musicians would draw on contemporary popular music more, or create entirely new, original music? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your premise, but to me, both of those things are happening quite a bit. .

On a side note, anyone got a decent backing track for the tune "Little Wing"? I'd start a thread, but I'm not sure where to put it.

Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 06, 2017, 07:33AM
I walked over and put a couple dollars in the case and chatted briefly, seemed like a nice kid.  As I left I said hey, give me Basin Street on the way out.  He said what's that? 


I did the same thing on a piano gig about 40 years ago.  The band leader called 'After You've Gone'. I told him I didn't know the tune. The band members looked at each other and laughed. They started playing the tune without me and I recognized it. I joined in and finished the tune with them. Even took a solo! 

At that age, you know what you know and not much else!

Quote from: ntap on Mar 06, 2017, 02:16PMI might be missing something - are you saying you wish jazz musicians would draw on contemporary popular music more, or create entirely new, original music? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your premise, but to me, both of those things are happening quite a bit. .

It may be happening, but it isn't the common standard yet. I believe the commonly thought-of standard is still an old standard, pretty much stuck in an era where jazz became popular - 20's & 30's. I believe as the torch gets passed on, there will be many more instances where "Basin Street Blues" and "After You've Gone" will become more and more obscure, to be performed by period performers keeping it alive and taught by college profs in classrooms as part of their music history and/or theory lesson.

Disclaimer: I am not astutely studied in jazz as some of you are. My opinions and impressions are more man-in-the-street and I would wager they aren't too far off from the typical man-in-the-street.

Jazz itself as an art form will probably outlive the old standards that gave birth to it. Who really knows. But here-and-now, I believe if you ask anyone from the general populace what jazz is - if they can even muster a definition - it will be defined by the old music that spawned it. That, or some discordant (to them) new stuff. But not pop music. How many times in the past 30 years has a jazz chart reached the Billboard Top 10? "Popsicle Toes", anyone?

So what outcome are you playing for: wallpaper, polite golf-clapping, hearty enthusiasm or spontaneous dancing and celebration? I know which outcome I prefer!

...Geezer 

Quote from: Radar on Mar 06, 2017, 06:30AMUnfortunately most young Brides and Grooms aren't hiring live musicians anymore.  Without computer backing tracks and other tricks you would have a hard time producing a lot of today's popular music in a live setting.  Most of the weddings (which are few and far between) we get are for much older couples.  Yes we need a few 50's 60's rock tunes but if you're a jazz combo or big band you're probably not playing a lot of weddings these days. Most of our paying jobs these days are senior centers and nursing homes and they want to hear what they heard when they were younger.  They want the standards!! 

snip.     

Very true! Last wedding I played was about 6 years back with my Dixieland band. But the bride and groom were jazz fans anyway.

Senior centres, villages etc. are certainly the main sources of gigs for big bands and jazz bands here in Queensland, Australia. But they do not pay enough to employ pro bands. Good for we semi pros, community big bands, however. 

The community big band I play for gets the best audiences by putting on its own dances. For those you can play a lot of oldies but also arrangements of pop and rock tunes which have mainly been written for stage bands. Of course most of these are selected by the arrangers to attract the kids in high school stage bands. This is one written by Ed Wilson who is an ex big band leader who now concentrates on arranging. MacArthur Park played by the Generations in Jazz Academy Band 2011. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDDOUohc518

A bit of a steal from the Maynard Ferguson band, I feel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC6ykRiQcvA

When Ed was co-leader of the Daley Wilson Big Band they used to say it was not at swing band but a big Rock & Roll Band.   Actually it was the best big band I ever heard in Australia but that was way back in the 1970s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A-drTsSeHI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqJ8PeinnCg

These days Ed writes some great arrangements, a lot based on pop tunes.