TromboneChat

Has anyone done a rotary valve conversion on any Holton bass trombone? I'm not interested in Hagmann or Thayer valve conversions. I'm specifically interested in the Rotax valve as I play a Rath R9 with dependent Rotax valves.

Hi Bill - I put an Instrument Innovations valve on my E185, for the main F trigger. Pretty good results, though I do miss a few things about the smaller rotor. You're welcome to try it anytime.

Thanks Nick. Yes I know anytime you put a bigger valve on it definitely changes aspects of the instrument. I need to do some research but I'd be curious as how the valve ports on the Instrument Innovations valves compare to the Rotax and other Rotary valves on the market. Part of the smaller valve design is key to the sound and response of the instrument.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:15 am Thanks Nick. Yes I know anytime you put a bigger valve on it definitely changes aspects of the instrument. I need to do some research but I'd be curious as how the valve ports on the Instrument Innovations valves compare to the Rotax and other Rotary valves on the market. Part of the smaller valve design is key to the sound and response of the instrument.

I would contact Instrument Innovations with questions about the rotor ports. They're knowledgeable and can put you in the right direction. I also know Eric Edwards and John Sandhagen have done a number of conversions with the Olsen rotors.

I had my Minick converted about a year back. I really like them!

They are "large" rotors but they aren't wide sounding like Hagmanns or Trubores. Nice and rotor like. I'm not sure I'd spring for the conversion if your valve is in good shape. Those Holton rotors blow nice!

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:10 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:15 am Thanks Nick. Yes I know anytime you put a bigger valve on it definitely changes aspects of the instrument. I need to do some research but I'd be curious as how the valve ports on the Instrument Innovations valves compare to the Rotax and other Rotary valves on the market. Part of the smaller valve design is key to the sound and response of the instrument.

I would contact Instrument Innovations with questions about the rotor ports. They're knowledgeable and can put you in the right direction. I also know Eric Edwards and John Sandhagen have done a number of conversions with the Olsen rotors.

I had my Minick converted about a year back. I really like them!

They are "large" rotors but they aren't wide sounding like Hagmanns or Trubores. Nice and rotor like. I'm not sure I'd spring for the conversion if your valve is in good shape. Those Holton rotors blow nice!

I will do some research but I'm not sure those particular valves are what I'd need. Everyone is looking for OPEN. I'm very accostumed to the Holton valves and would probably never change them out. However the 180 I use at my show is one of the very early ones with a 9 and 1/2 inch bell-the valves have seen a to of action. I'm having the horn completely taken apart and put back together very soon. Just thinking.

flotrb wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:08 pm I have an 1962 original Holton 169 Bb/F rose brass bass trombone
(serial # 355xxx) that I bought from Dorothy Ziegler (1st trombone St. Louis Symphony) in 1965 and have been playing since then. I pondered adding a second valve, but since the original 2nd valve attachment and noisy linkage were no longer available, I asked my local repairman, Joe Sellmansberger (also great tuba player) for a consultation.

Here is a link to my repairman's web posting:
<http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35346>
which explains the procedure. The modification works fantastically (I especially like the security in knowing that the low B is going to solidly be there).

Would love to see some pictures of your conversion. The link does not provide them.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:13 am Has anyone done a rotary valve conversion on any Holton bass trombone? I'm not interested in Hagmann or Thayer valve conversions. I'm specifically interested in the Rotax valve as I play a Rath R9 with dependent Rotax valves.

I did some research and the the closest thing I could find was a tr 181 with a combo Rotax/Meinlschmidt conversion:

https://www.thebrass-exchange.com/conte ... ent-valves

Thanks for sharing! Very interesting. I wonder how it plays and I wonder why the 2 different valves??

Mods I've added to my 181 since last posting:
Ergo-bone support
Custom porting of valves (DIY!)
I'll add de-bracing here because it was DIY!!
Shortened my D slide tubes because it was too flat - DIY!!
Brass ark MV50 leadpipe in bronze
Added a accessory compartment to my DIY modified screwbell case

I am getting braver with this self modifications thing. It's a lot of fun!

Backbone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:25 pm Mods I've added to my 181 since last posting:
Ergo-bone support
Custom porting of valves (DIY!)
I'll add de-bracing here because it was DIY!!
Shortened my D slide tubes because it was too flat - DIY!!
Brass ark MV50 leadpipe in bronze
Added a accessory compartment to my DIY modified screwbell case

I am getting braver with this self modifications thing. It's a lot of fun!

This makes me miss my 181. I think it’s such a cool looking horn.

Resurrecting this old thread to show off my modded 180. It's not all that fancy or modern, but dang, I still like its sound better than any other bass I've tried. So dark and velvety rich without getting too heavy.

Split triggers and custom D slide by Gary Dafler of Hauer Music in Dayton Ohio. He also worked some miracles on general restoration for this horn - it belonged to a local high school before it came to me and got absolutely trashed in their marching band.

One entertaining quirk is that in the course of restoration Gary had to replace the ruined slide receiver (the original was completely stripped) and since that's where the model and serial numbers are listed, it's labeled as an early 2000s Holton 281. Someone is going to be confused one day if this instrument ever passes out of my hands.

Question: is the stock glantz bar nickel plated?

Elow wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:11 pm Question: is the stock glantz bar nickel plated?

Chrome plated, like the handslide grip.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:38 pm ....
One entertaining quirk is that in the course of restoration Gary had to replace the ruined slide receiver (the original was completely stripped) and since that's where the model and serial numbers are listed, it's labeled as an early 2000s Holton 281. Someone is going to be confused one day if this instrument ever passes out of my hands.
....

Hey, we already had a whole thread on a horn like that before. That was an adventure.

Cheers,
Andy

Oh really? Do you have a link handy?

I have a 1972 180 slide and it’s nickel sleeves nickel outers and gold crook, there’s a nice 181 up on facebook and it has yellow outers nickel sleeves and nickel crook. I thought the slides were the same, are they different between the 180 and 181?

Elow wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:37 pm I have a 1972 180 slide and it’s nickel sleeves nickel outers and gold crook, there’s a nice 181 up on facebook and it has yellow outers nickel sleeves and nickel crook. I thought the slides were the same, are they different between the 180 and 181?

181 (pre-Elkhart) should be the same slide as 180. Even post consolidation of all Conn-Selmer trombone manufacturing the 181 still has nickel outers and yellow crook. Yellow outer tubes and nickel crook mean it's not the original slide for that horn.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:51 pm

Elow wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:37 pm I have a 1972 180 slide and it’s nickel sleeves nickel outers and gold crook, there’s a nice 181 up on facebook and it has yellow outers nickel sleeves and nickel crook. I thought the slides were the same, are they different between the 180 and 181?

181 (pre-Elkhart) should be the same slide as 180. Even post consolidation of all Conn-Selmer trombone manufacturing the 181 still has nickel outers and yellow crook. Yellow outer tubes and nickel crook mean it's not the original slide for that horn.

Almost! There was one or two years of early TR181 production where they made them with Yellow slides. I suspect this is one of those instruments. Note there is no Holton medallion in the valve section. Slide looks stock to me.

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:46 pm

spencercarran wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:51 pm

181 (pre-Elkhart) should be the same slide as 180. Even post consolidation of all Conn-Selmer trombone manufacturing the 181 still has nickel outers and yellow crook. Yellow outer tubes and nickel crook mean it's not the original slide for that horn.

Almost! There was one or two years of early TR181 production where they made them with Yellow slides. I suspect this is one of those instruments. Note there is no Holton medallion in the valve section. Slide looks stock to me.

This is correct. There was a time when early 181s with those slides were sought after.

Chris

Elow wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:37 pm I have a 1972 180 slide and it’s nickel sleeves nickel outers and gold crook, there’s a nice 181 up on facebook and it has yellow outers nickel sleeves and nickel crook. I thought the slides were the same, are they different between the 180 and 181?

It's not a "gold" crook. It's yellow brass.

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:53 am

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:46 pm
Almost! There was one or two years of early TR181 production where they made them with Yellow slides. I suspect this is one of those instruments. Note there is no Holton medallion in the valve section. Slide looks stock to me.

This is correct. There was a time when early 181s with those slides were sought after.

Chris

Interesting, I didn't know this! Found that 181, looks amazingly pristine.

Does anyone know what the reasoning was for introducing yellow tubes and nickel crook in the early 181, or for switching back to the more distinctively Holton pattern of nickel tubes and yellow crook?

probably nobody alive now to answer that. I've seen brass outers, but still with a brass bottom bow.. Only ever seen one nickel bottom bow, and I presumed it was Bach....however, the bow guard and water key were Holton....and it's on the end of one of my slides, so I've got time to ponder....

Chris

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:17 am

Elow wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:37 pm I have a 1972 180 slide and it’s nickel sleeves nickel outers and gold crook, there’s a nice 181 up on facebook and it has yellow outers nickel sleeves and nickel crook. I thought the slides were the same, are they different between the 180 and 181?

It's not a "gold" crook. It's yellow brass.

What material is the valve wrap? They both look good to me, but there’s also a nice patina on my example

Elow wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:22 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:17 am
It's not a "gold" crook. It's yellow brass.

What material is the valve wrap? They both look good to me, but there’s also a nice patina on my example

Yellow brass. As far as I know, Holton never used Gold Brass on their valve tubing but with Holton you never truly know lol

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:03 pm

Elow wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:22 pm

What material is the valve wrap? They both look good to me, but there’s also a nice patina on my example

Yellow brass. As far as I know, Holton never used Gold Brass on their valve tubing but with Holton you never truly know lol

Mr. Deacon is correct.

The 185 is basically complete!

Split triggers by Benn Hansson, D slide by John Sandhagen. Luckily John had a TR-158 valve section sitting around the shop for the donor .585 valve tubing.

Still need to move the levers a bit, and the spring on the 2nd valve needs a bit of stiffening- it's moving a lot of mass!

Looks cool as heck. Is the second valve still (easily) removable, or are you missing a suitable tuning slide to make it single-valve?

Here's a Holton that I converted for a prominent player in NY. He says it "has become his daily driver"!

M&W valve section in F and Gb, with original Holton levers slightly modified to suit.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:59 am Looks cool as heck. Is the second valve still (easily) removable, or are you missing a suitable tuning slide to make it single-valve?

The valve and lever can be taken off, but I don't have an F slide. I don't have a use for one!

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:16 am Here's a Holton that I converted for a prominent player in NY. He says it "has become his daily driver"!

M&W valve section in F and Gb, with original Holton levers slightly modified to suit.

That is stunning! Is that a 169? Beautiful!

I might just have to reach out and convert my Minick with you guys...

I might just have to reach out and convert my Minick with you guys...
[/quote]

This started life as a 185, similar to the horn Aidan posted immediately above.

Francisco Palacios' (bass trombone player of the "Banda Municipal de Barcelona") Holton TR-183, the 2nd valve was assembled at Sonas S.C. workshop in Seville, Spain.

Very similar to what we (M&W) did for Max Seigel a few years ago.

..everything old is new again. Dave Chamberlain, on the right, bought his plug-in valve from me - it was made by Terry Pierce for a 183 I had. The lower photos are from a Bach - the section allowed for single valve in F, bE, double valve in Eb or D.

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:03 pm

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:16 am Here's a Holton that I converted for a prominent player in NY. He says it "has become his daily driver"!

M&W valve section in F and Gb, with original Holton levers slightly modified to suit.

That is stunning! Is that a 169? Beautiful!

I might just have to reach out and convert my Minick with you guys...

185!

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 12:57 pm The 185 is basically complete!

Split triggers by Benn Hansson, D slide by John Sandhagen. Luckily John had a TR-158 valve section sitting around the shop for the donor .585 valve tubing.

Still need to move the levers a bit, and the spring on the 2nd valve needs a bit of stiffening- it's moving a lot of mass!

What vintage is this?

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:49 am
What vintage is this?

I actually don't know! The new 2nd valve saddle is soldered directly onto the first number of the serial. I did look it up before it was modified and I remember getting 1967 as a result, but I'm not entirely sure since the serials repeat soon after that.

I'm actually not sure of 185 production years, I'm sure someone knows better than I!

If it's #57xxx that would be about right I think.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:46 am If it's #57xxx that would be about right I think.

That's that it is. Sweet.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:38 am

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:46 am If it's #57xxx that would be about right I think.

That's that it is. Sweet.

I have 2 TR 180s from the 457xxx period with 9 and 1/2 inch flares.

Here is my 1974 TR180 that I've had modernized over the last year, bought for the use as a doubler in pit orchestras. A bit of a beater when I first got her, she still had her Glanz bar and original valves, was stuffy in the low register, wouldn't play low C or B and was generally out of tune and unpredictable. However, the horn had promise. She really resonated on a concert A, and the slide was excellent for its age.

I took it to a well known and busy repair shop in NYC. Those who are familiar with the city will know who I'm talking about. New valves and linkage from Instrument Innovations were put on, the original leadpipe was pulled and the lacquer take off the bell. The shop had done exactly what I asked and the work looked great, but I would later find out that a few important faults had been overlooked.

After getting the horn back I found that the leadpipe had begun to disintegrate, so I replaced it with a Shires #2. The new valves were much more predictable and centered but still playing very flat, so much so that even with the tuning slides pushed all the way in, first position low F and D were 25 cents under where they needed to be. In addition, low C and B still had issues and the horn still felt stiff and lacked resonance throughout the range of the instrument. That A still made the bell ring, but the rest of the horn felt like it had a straight jacket on.

Back in my hometown to ride out the pandemic, I was able to spend some time with an old private instructor who recommended Graham Middleton in Salem, OR. Graham turned out to be a great guy and excellent tech. He found and repaired three failures on the horn that had been missed during the first round of work; a broken ferrule on the valve section, a slide lock that didn't lock properly and a freaking hole in the handslide crook! The D valve linkage was modified with an adjustable arm. He then cut 3/4" off of both the F and D tubes and fine tuned the valve bracing, completely removing one of the braces and moving the rest around to loosen up the response.

The result is a horn that is in tune and much, much livelier. The lower register has really come alive and the horn has a ton of character up and down its range. It really feels like a modern horn. I may continue to fiddle a bit with leadpipe and mouthpiece options, but the horn is now a great player.

If you are thinking of getting one of these old Holtons worked on, I highly recommend finding a technician who is very detailed and who is going to play the horn for more than a few notes to get a feel for what it needs. You can tell them what you'd like to have done, but this horn had issues and really needed some fine tuning to get it playing up to its potential. Graham really spent time on the horn and was a great resource, offering a few mouthpiece and pipe options to try out as well.

One last thing I wanted to mention: this slide is surprisingly light. I'd have to weigh it to be sure, but I'm almost positive its lighter than my Shires NLW .525. The combo of the lightweight nickle slide and rose brass bell is a great pairing.

More pics:

Some interesting comments from the previous poster.

Those instrument innovation valves look great in that setup!

SwissTbone wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:20 am Those instrument innovation valves look great in that setup!

They DO look great but I've heard mixed reviews, especially when used with Holtons.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:43 pm

SwissTbone wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:20 am Those instrument innovation valves look great in that setup!

They DO look great but I've heard mixed reviews, especially when used with Holtons.

I've heard mixed reviews too. Notably from one if the best trombone builders in the US who thought they leaked too easily. But I had no problems with the few examples I have played.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:43 pm

SwissTbone wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:20 am Those instrument innovation valves look great in that setup!

They DO look great but I've heard mixed reviews, especially when used with Holtons.

They play well on this horn, nicely centered but open enough for the low stuff. My only real complaint so far is that the throw on the D valve is quite long. Makes some legato movements difficult.

SwissTbone wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:38 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:43 pm

They DO look great but I've heard mixed reviews, especially when used with Holtons.

I've heard mixed reviews too. Notably from one if the best trombone builders in the US who thought they leaked too easily. But I had no problems with the few examples I have played.

I just had some installed on my tenor and my bass. See here: https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20873

They actually seem quite tight/close tolerance. No problems with compression or leaking so far.

What valve swaps/replacements have worked well on Holtons?

This is a great thread! I own a 1990 TR-181 in perfect shape that I always thought was over-braced. Now, I know its true.
Thanks
CarlVicVogel