Trombone pet peeves

[BGuttman]

Another one: (Contemporary) Music with trombone parts that don't even theoretically make sense on trombone. Impossible slurs, parts playing in extreme high or extreme low ranges, extreme especially soft dynamics that would better call for using a mute to reach the effect. All things that might even musically make sense, but don't consider feasibility. Especially if these pieces are being premiered by amateur organizations.

I have one of these coming up (subbing with an amateur orchestra). Will be interesting to see how it works out.

I think it makes a huge difference if you write that sort of thing for a specific group, a top pro orchestra or a specific soloist or if you write it just for a random orchestra.

It probably relates to composers using electronic sound libraries to preview their work. An electronic trombone sound is not constrained by the abilities of the instrument and thinks nothing of, for example, a gliss (portamento) from D3 to G3 (both of which occur only in 4th position separated by one partial).

A composer who studied the capabilities and characteristics of each instrument would avoid some of these inexcusable errors.

[mbarbier]

That whole "you have to warm up in a practice mute" thing is strictly LA, though. I never got that fear of being heard thing.

Totally - the logic of it still doesn't make any sense to me. I assume this is somehow a culture grown by harpist's so they can actually tune before work.

[atopper333]

That annoying player in front of me that won’t wear their glasses and has to keep moving their chair back into my space so they can get far enough away from their stand to see their music…I debate options for positive correction on that…

[hyperbolica]

That whole "you have to warm up in a practice mute" thing is strictly LA, though. I never got that fear of being heard thing.

I know a couple people here "back east" that do it. I did it last week. For me, it's so annoying to have trumpets warm up right in your ear at full volume. I don't want to be a jerk like that, so I bring a practice mute. You keep thinking they'll learn by example, or when I put in my industrial earplugs, but no.

Might as well contribute some other peeves...

Our big band had one trumpet player who thought he was a screech player (he was mistaken) trying to teach another player to be a screech player. Those were some miserable rehearsals. These were old guys who should know better, not testosterone laden PAKs.

Of course I got annoyed at myself for playing the same notes (on tbone) that the guys trying to screech were playing (on trumpet)

People who will use ANYTHING but a bucket mute.
Modern arrangers who think 4th bone in a big band is kind of a clean up batter who just plays any left over notes.
Trumpet players who insist on practicing licks when people are trying to discuss what should be happening with the music.
Ok, I can probably simplify things by just saying "trumpet players".
Trombone players who... won't play high, won't play low, won;t play tenor clef, won't play alto clef, won't play treble clef, but always want the melody or the solo.
Trombone players who insist on playing a large bore for everything. A large bore without a valve...

[harrisonreed]

That annoying player in front of me that won’t wear their glasses and has to keep moving their chair back into my space so they can get far enough away from their stand to see their music…I debate options for positive correction on that…

Just kick them, but in a positive way.

[tbdana]

That annoying player in front of me that won’t wear their glasses and has to keep moving their chair back into my space so they can get far enough away from their stand to see their music…I debate options for positive correction on that…

Just kick them, but in a positive way.

I've gently tapped more than one big band saxophone player in the back with the end of my slide. "Oops! Sorry!"

[atopper333]

yes, in a positive way…and I have thought about the slide check!

But then we can get into the debate…would the slide check be more meaningful with the end bumper on or off…which definitely can affect the amount of correction implied.

Maybe opening up another can with slide end bumpers.

[Posaunus]

For me, it's so annoying to have trumpets warm up right in your ear at full volume.

Indeed. I keep forgetting my ear plugs.

People who will use ANYTHING but a bucket mute.

Gotta disagree on that one. In our big band, all four of us use Softone neoprene mutes. It sounds just fine - we save our bells, and can insert and remove the mutes quickly, quietly, and safely.

[tbdana]

In our big band, all four of us use Softone neoprene mutes. It sounds just fine - we save our bells, and can insert and remove the mutes quickly, quietly, and safely.

Okay, my pet peeve is those Softone neoprene mutes. They don't sound good, they're not easy to get on and off, and if you don't get them positioned right they sound like a practice mute.

I prefer the Jo-Ral bucket mute. Easy on the bell, easy to get in and out, and sound fantastic. The only downside is they take up more room in the mute bag.

[hyperbolica]

Gotta disagree on that one. In our big band, all four of us use Softone neoprene mutes. It sounds just fine - we save our bells, and can insert and remove the mutes quickly, quietly, and safely.

https://www.theeazybucket.com/

Easy, no metal clips, light, doesn't damage your horn, in expensive, sounds like a bucket...

[Posaunus]

Gotta disagree on that one. In our big band, all four of us use Softone neoprene mutes. It sounds just fine - we save our bells, and can insert and remove the mutes quickly, quietly, and safely.

https://www.theeazybucket.com/
Easy, no metal clips, light, doesn't damage your horn, inexpensive, sounds like a bucket...

I like my Eazy Bucket. My bandmates don't. (They're also pretty large / space-consuming.) We want to sound unified, so we use Softones. Our audience surely doesn't care about the "authenticity" of our mute appearance or sound.

I also have a Jo-Ral "bucket." Doesn't quite sound like an H&B bucket to my ears, but that doesn't matter so much to us or our audience. I don't use my Jo-Ral in other situations either - too bulky and too heavy! Should put it up for sale.

[sf105]

Another one: (Contemporary) Music with trombone parts that don't even theoretically make sense on trombone. Impossible slurs, parts playing in extreme high or extreme low ranges, extreme especially soft dynamics that would better call for using a mute to reach the effect. All things that might even musically make sense, but don't consider feasibility. Especially if these pieces are being premiered by amateur organizations.

Had one of these a few seasons ago, repeated patters with nowhere to breath (probably sounded fine on Sibelius). When I tried to ask the composer, at first he didn't want to speak to me, then he said it didn't matter. If he didn't care, I don't see why I should.

[ghmerrill]

Our audience surely doesn't care about the "authenticity" of our mute appearance or sound.

https://s-mute.com/products/salt-shaker-mute

The others in my big band section are amazed at how this sounds like a bucket mute on my bass -- as they're clamping those massive cans onto their bells. To me, the only drawback of the Salt Shaker Mute is that since it's so light and I can't see it from behind the bell, I have a history of forgetting it's there when I go to put the horn on the stand. Partly, I think it's an old man thing. And at this point I think I have the problem beat (if only with the "TAKE THE MUTE OUT!!" comments inserted (in bold red) in my music.

[Posaunus]

https://www.theeazybucket.com/
Easy, no metal clips, light, doesn't damage your horn, inexpensive, sounds like a bucket...

I have (and like) an Eazy Bucket. My bandmates don't. (They're also pretty large / space-consuming.) We want to sound unified, so we use Softones. Our audience surely doesn't care about the "authenticity" of our mute appearance or sound.

I also have a Jo-Ral "bucket." Doesn't quite sound like an H&B bucket to my ears, but that doesn't matter so much to us or our audience. I don't use my Jo-Ral in other situations either - too bulky and too heavy! Should put it up for sale.

[Macbone1]

People that play with the main tuning slide out so far it looks like it's about to fall off. What is up with that? The relative pitch across the entire horn has got to be affected by that.

Whenever the trombone section is considered the default section for dragging tempos. I play in a community band where the trumpet section drags like crazy.

[hyperbolica]

People that play with the main tuning slide out so far it looks like it's about to fall off. What is up with that? The relative pitch across the entire horn has got to be affected by that.

I don't get it. Why do people care about anyone's tuning slide? I don't care if they leave it at home as long as they play in tune. Would you prefer them to ask you where it should go, and then play out of tune? Really don't get it.

[harrisonreed]

that's why it's called a pet peeve

[Macbone1]

People that play with the main tuning slide out so far it looks like it's about to fall off. What is up with that? The relative pitch across the entire horn has got to be affected by that.

I don't get it. Why do people care about anyone's tuning slide? I don't care if they leave it at home as long as they play in tune. Would you prefer them to ask you where it should go, and then play out of tune? Really don't get it.

There may be some brass techs and pedagogues on this string who can explain why it's not the optimum way to play the instrument. Try it yourself at home sometime and see if you don't like the feel of the horn.
If the instrument passed inspection at the factory (it did) then it's on the player to figure out why they play so sharp and correct it if possible.
If I'm all wet on this topic then by all means, catch me up.

[Macbone1]

that's why it's called a pet peeve

Bingo

[hyperbolica]

There may be some brass techs and pedagogues on this string who can explain why it's not the optimum way to play the instrument. Try it yourself at home sometime and see if you don't like the feel of the horn.
If the instrument passed inspection at the factory (it did) then it's on the player to figure out why they play so sharp and correct it if possible.
If I'm all wet on this topic then by all means, catch me up.

So all of your horns are TIS?

Here's a pet peeve: People who are pedantic, even hypocritically pedantic about trivial issues.

[TomInME]

How about big band players who think "jazz" is one single style and never play really short notes or really fast falls and just play medium-long on everything? It's like the difference between someone putting their hand on your face and pushing gently instead of a slap.

Worse: playing an off-beat eighth tied to an eighth like a full-value quarter note, even when it has rests on both sides. (I've had trumpet players say, "that's what's written"...)

We don't have recordings of Bach playing Bach, but we damn sure have Basie and Ellington. There are times to play fat, and times not to.

[ghmerrill]

I've had trumpet players say, "that's what's written"...

That's funny. In my experience in community bands, trumpet players generally can't play what's written -- as it's written. But most of them think they're accomplished "jazz players".

[harrisonreed]

"It is written!"

I often declare this during rehearsals, too.

[tbdana]

Here's a pet peeve I'm dealing with now. I play with such a wide range of musicians that issues really stick out. I play in professional big bands and a community big band. In the community big band the lead trumpet player constantly plays behind the beat and with big, fat notes. It drags the whole band down in tempo. The rhythm section slows to match the trumpets, and then the trumpets lay back on the beat to slow it down further, in a death spiral loop. I swear, if the tunes went on long enough they'd all come to dead stops.

I can't say anything about it, no matter how subtly or constructively, or I'm a jerk. And the thing is, they don't even hear it! They're completely mystified as to why everything slows down!

And I have no choice but to do my job and follow the lead trumpet player.

If someone had a magic solution, something I could say or do that would turn on their lights, I'd be eternally grateful. As it is, I just constantly remind myself that it's a privilege to be playing music and that the skill of those around me does not affect how privileged I am to be participating. I'm blessed, but dang, it would be nice to finish a tune within 20 bpm of where it started.






Also, I'm really enjoying Harry's drive-bys.

"It is written!"

I often declare this during rehearsals, too.

[TomInME]

"It is written" is the corrollary to composers who don't know how to notate what they want to hear.

[TomInME]

What about composers who play lines in with the quantization WAY too high and instead of staccato eighths have a 64th followed by a 32nd rest followed by a 16th rest followed by an eighth rest...

[ghmerrill]

In the community big band the lead trumpet player constantly plays behind the beat and with big, fat notes.

This sounds like you're complaining about how the guy performs and expresses his art!! Like you've got no soul.

But seriously ... I've come to believe that this is part of the job description for trumpet players in community (big, concert, whatever) bands. The only upside to it is in watching the drummer and bass (or guitar) players trying to anticipate when they should come in at the end of one of those artistically expressive trumpet passages: Now? .... No, not yet ... Here I comes ... Uh, no not yet ... Where did the beat go? ... Now for sure! ... No not quite ...

At least in community concert bands I played in, I did have some degree of control because I was the tuba and I would make the beat (the percussion was often a bunch of part-timers with no formal training or experience). Then at least the conductor can say "Listen to the tuba," although even that has its limitations that depend on the listener. Also, most of those people never play in smaller groups -- like quintets, etc. So they don't hear how much they're off in the bigger group. I've played (tuba) in a couple of really good brass quintets with very competent trumpet players. But in two cases I had to abandon small groups because the trumpets were just intolerable (including no sense of intonation). Most often, I think, this is closely correlated with the age of the player.

[JohnL]

The rhythm section slows to match the trumpets...

If you're got trumpets playing behind the beat (been there, done that, got the t-shirt. And the coffee mug. And the souvenir belt buckle.), the rhythm section is your only hope. If they hold the line, the trumpets will still be behind, but it won't get any worse.

I tried talking to the trumpet section leader about it and he was adamant that playing on the back side of the beat was stylistically correct for big band swing. I'm not sure where that came from. I hear it on solos a lot, but to do it on ensemble playing? I wish there was a facepalm smiley.

[Posaunus]

... in two cases I had to abandon small groups because the trumpets were just intolerable (including no sense of intonation). Most often, I think, this is closely correlated with the age of the player.

Yes I've noticed that too. My playing (including rhythm and intonation) is definitely improving as I get older!

[TomInME]

I can't say anything about it, no matter how subtly or constructively, or I'm a jerk.

There's a huge difference between saying "that's not happening, shut up" vs "I know and have been working on it" or even "really? I'll check that with a tuner/metronome".

[Macbone1]

So all of your horns are TIS?
Here's a pet peeve: People who are pedantic, even hypocritically pedantic about trivial issues.

I was hoping for open-minded discourse on this to include how it might be a red flag for other playing issues, depending on the individual. I don't put others down on this forum but I guess that's a little too much to expect from everyone.
I never owned a TIS instrument.

I served 26 years in Air Force bands and a brass player auditioning could certainly risk being turned down in favor of the next candidate if they showed up with a tuning slide about ready to fall off. Doesn’t sound so trivial now does it.

[harrisonreed]

[tbdana]

I tried talking to the trumpet section leader about it and he was adamant that playing on the back side of the beat was stylistically correct for big band swing. I'm not sure where that came from.

That reminds me of an embarrassing mistake I made. I was recording an album, and my longtime hero Sammy Nestico arranged all the charts. Nestico wrote for Basie, and when I was growing up, "Basie Straight Ahead" was one of my favorite albums, and all the tunes on that album were arranged by Sammy Nestico.

For some reason, I had the impression that the brass section laid back on the slower swing tunes, like "It's Oh, So Nice," and I thought I'd show Sammy how familiar I was with his style by really laying back on some section that sounded a lot like that Basie album. Bad decision. Nestico stopped the band and laid into "that trombone player who was playing behind," which of course was me playing the lead trombone part, and he went on about how "stupid" that was.

I was mortified and absolutely crushed. Here was my hero coming down on me in front of all these great players like Bill Liston, Bob McChesney, Wayne Bergeron, Dave Carpenter, Dan Higgins, and more. Ugh!

That day I learned a big lesson. I went home and started listening to those Basie recordings again only to realize that the laying back thing was a myth. They played all of it right in time, just with great musicality that made it feel laid back.

Big lessons are almost always difficult ones, but ones that really stay with you.

[tbdana]

I can't say anything about it, no matter how subtly or constructively, or I'm a jerk.

There's a huge difference between saying "that's not happening, shut up" vs "I know and have been working on it" or even "really? I'll check that with a tuner/metronome".

Thanks for the super helpful tips. You totally divined what I was saying.

[BrassSection]

Not against trombone players, but gripes in general in no particular order. Note: We are all volunteer players.

So called “musicians” that think a euphonium is a French horn or tuba. At least non-musical people ask “What instrument is that?”
Guitar players that think we enjoy hearing them play whatever they feel like when the leader is trying to tell us something.
Guitar players tuning their guitar during quiet periods.
Canned pads
Trumpet players that show up for an ensemble practice that haven’t even looked at the music they’ve had for 2 weeks.
Trumpet players that show up without valve oil.
Ensemble players that just plain don’t show up.

[hyperbolica]

I never owned a TIS instrument.

The only way to get past ~6-8 inches of cylindrical tubing in your conical bell is to have a TIS slide or no tuning slide whatsoever. But the whole "slam the tuning slide shut" contingent doesn't have either. Again, I don't get it.

The answer of course is that it makes little to no difference. If even TIS doesn't make much difference, then an extra inch or two on your existing tuning slide makes even less difference.

So remove the tuning slide parts from your horn or get a TIS. Or stop ridiculing people for using their tuning slide.

[JohnL]

Ensemble players that just plain don’t show up.

and don't tell anyone they're not going to be there.

[Macbone1]

I never owned a TIS instrument.

The only way to get past ~6-8 inches of cylindrical tubing in your conical bell is to have a TIS slide or no tuning slide whatsoever. But the whole "slam the tuning slide shut" contingent doesn't have either. Again, I don't get it.

The answer of course is that it makes little to no difference. If even TIS doesn't make much difference, then an extra inch or two on your existing tuning slide makes even less difference.

So remove the tuning slide parts from your horn or get a TIS. Or stop ridiculing people for using their tuning slide.

If you don't get it I can't help you here. I considered the subject to be generally familiar but apparently not. I agree that slamming a tuning slide shut to play is also not a good thing, but almost never seen in my 55 years of playing.
I won't post anymore on this, you exhausted the subject.

[harrisonreed]

There was a very good studio player I heard of that cut the outer tubes on his tuning slide (but not the inners) so that he could play pushed in all the way and not have people whining that he didn't use his tuning slide. It appeared like he had pulled it out a quarter inch.

This would be an example of a technique that some here would take unreasonable offense to. Even though having a longer cylindrical section in your bell actually will make the horn play generally worse than a shorter one. A pet peeve, so to speak.

[BrassSection]

Oh yeah, forgot one…wandering singers! More than once my slide hit a singer on the shoulder…STRONGLY resisted the head target after the first contact. And it wasn’t rare, almost weekly! Even a friendly spit valve demonstration with a warning to beware of the trombone players didn’t stop the problem.

[LeTromboniste]

Maybe my no. 1 pet peeve: "Play the dots on the page"

[timothy42b]

I can't say anything about it, no matter how subtly or constructively, or I'm a jerk. And the thing is, they don't even hear it! They're completely mystified as to why everything slows down!

And I have no choice but to do my job and follow the lead trumpet player.

Some years back I was playing in a band with intonation challenges. The center of pitch could be wildly different between sections, and depending on which section had the lead I was annoyed at having to adjust. And that's fatiguing for the chops.

I mentioned it to another section mate, and he said, "Tim, you're being part of the problem. Don't follow them, play it correctly."

While amateur groups often play out of tune, the ubiquitous $20 tuner, and the phone apps mean we're usually at least in reaching distance of 440. That's one thing that has improved over the years.

[ghmerrill]

the ubiquitous $20 tuner, and the phone apps mean we're usually at least in reaching distance of 440. That's one thing that has improved over the years.

My experience is that the way in which this technology is typically used in community bands actually contributes to the lack of intonation.

[timothy42b]

the ubiquitous $20 tuner, and the phone apps mean we're usually at least in reaching distance of 440. That's one thing that has improved over the years.

My experience is that the way in which this technology is typically used in community bands actually contributes to the lack of intonation.

That hasn't been my experience locally. Players with intonation difficulties here mostly lack the skillset to play a steady enough pitch; they aren't chasing a flashing light on the stand.

Any given person may not play at the ensemble's core pitch. But I really do think the tuners have caused that core pitch to stabilize in reaching distance of A440. If you're old enough, you remember not knowing what to expect, often a half step or more away from that.

Autotune in pop music on the radio may be a contributor too.

[ghmerrill]

But I really do think the tuners have caused that core pitch to stabilize in reaching distance of A440.

I guess I don't really understand this. There are several tuning/pitch issues here, I suppose, but "in reaching distance of" sounds like another kinder/gentler way of saying "not in tune." If you mean that tuners provide the average community band player at least with what seems to be a straightforward method (or at least part of one) to "reach" the ability to play in tune, I don't think I'd dispute that. At least over the past 20 years or so, I haven't seen any genuine convergence on good intonation in community bands. But there are a lot of "comorbidities" involved in poor community bands intonation (including age of players, experience and training of players, enforcement of standards by the conductor and band leadership, etc.). And some bands are much better than others. In general, I think you will find that a younger band (average under, say 65) led by an experienced and skilled conductor, comprised of people who have had some decent training in their school years, and in which standards of performance (and rehearsal regimen) are high will tend to play with much better intonation than most other community bands. I suppose that tuners may help in such circumstances.

[chouston3]

I rediscovered a pet peeve last night. I was sitting in a teaching orchestra with people of all skill levels. The trombonist next to me who isn't bad, just quiet, was holding his trombone in a super weird way. I showed him how to hold it but then he went back to his weird way. I asked to see his trombone and his slide was awful. The poor kid was using muscle to move his slide. The thing was making grinding noises as he was playing. I then asked what he used on the slide. He didn't know to lube his slide. He switched from baritone to trombone in the 10th grade and nobody clued him in on basic instrument maintenance. This will be fixed next week but it pisses me off when I see a kid who doesn't know the really basic things.

[ghmerrill]

He switched from baritone to trombone in the 10th grade and nobody clued him in on basic instrument maintenance.

So I wonder if he knew enough to lubricate his baritone valves and tuning slides? And he couldn't extend that idea to the trombone slide? And after he changed to trombone he never noticed any fellow trombone players lubricating their slides or talking about that? And neither his middle school (or junior high school) nor his high school director or instructor ever noticed a problem or provided any instruction on instrument maintenance? That does seem pretty amazing.

[brassmedic]

That whole "you have to warm up in a practice mute" thing is strictly LA, though. I never got that fear of being heard thing.

I know a couple people here "back east" that do it. I did it last week. For me, it's so annoying to have trumpets warm up right in your ear at full volume. I don't want to be a jerk like that, so I bring a practice mute. You keep thinking they'll learn by example, or when I put in my industrial earplugs, but no.

That's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about players who don't want anyone to hear them warming up. Not because they're afraid of hurting someone's ears, but because they're afraid they might be judged. If you did some gigs here you would understand. I don't notice it a lot in jazz settings, but on orchestra or recording jobs. I think it's considerate of you to not want to hurt people's ears, and I totally get that.

[timothy42b]

But I really do think the tuners have caused that core pitch to stabilize in reaching distance of A440.

I guess I don't really understand this. There are several tuning/pitch issues here, I suppose, but "in reaching distance of" sounds like another kinder/gentler way of saying "not in tune."

Yeah, I didn't explain well, and there are two different issues that are somewhat coupled.

What I mean is when you sub with a different group (I'm kind of thinking polka days in the upper midwest and my family's experiences) you might have to play in tune with a group that's at A=416 or A=465. The individuals in the group might or might not play in tune with that pitch depending on their skills. When your tuning slide is all the way in and you can't use first position at all, everything is alternates. Etc. That doesn't happen anymore, and I think the cheap tuner has something to do with that. I could be wrong, dunno. Might just be that the untunable accordion has fallen out of style.

[tbdana]

I know a couple people here "back east" that do it. I did it last week. For me, it's so annoying to have trumpets warm up right in your ear at full volume. I don't want to be a jerk like that, so I bring a practice mute. You keep thinking they'll learn by example, or when I put in my industrial earplugs, but no.

That's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about players who don't want anyone to hear them warming up. Not because they're afraid of hurting someone's ears, but because they're afraid they might be judged. If you did some gigs here you would understand. I don't notice it a lot in jazz settings, but on orchestra or recording jobs. I think it's considerate of you to not want to hurt people's ears, and I totally get that.

Is that seriously what they do in L.A. now? Imagine being a gigging musician and being afraid to let others hear you.