Improving tone (With example)

[imsevimse]

I looked into what causes undertones, and Wikipedia stated that on wind instruments, it’s caused by overblowing, which is how I reached that conclusion.

FYI: it pays to be careful about defining just what these terms "undertone", "overtone", and related things like "partials" and "harmonics" actually mean. Unfortunately, there isn't really a clear consensus in any of them, unless you seek out a fairly specific physics context - which musicians are generally terrible at.

I would advice anyone to only use the ears to find the good sound. That's the best tool. It can also help to record yourself because it's not uncommon to "miss the forrest for the trees".
Use the ears of a good experienced teacher is also a good thing. He can help you to listen for certain things you might not notice yourself, but you then need to hear and fix the problem yourself. Nothing beats your own ears if you want to get better. My best advice is you pay a professional for a couple of lessons, and make shure you tell you need to work on your sound. He should then demo his own sound if anything. Then you need to listen and compare your sound to his.

Until then; Op, can you do that video?

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

You know... From the sound I already know what it looks like. It's not hard to produce that sound. It's also not hard to produce a good sound if you know what to do.

And it's also difficult to discuss it without actually working with the person directly. Or starting from scratch. But if somebody is already playing like that, it's NOT starting from scratch, and involves changes to what's already there which can't really be simply talked about, it needs adjustments, immediate feedback and additional adjustments.

[timothy42b]

This forum - and actually, life itself - is full of people who don't take the only advice that can help them.
I have some relatives who have mastered that approach. But I probably do it too some of the time. Human nature.

When you have resources like Doug and Tom available, it would be at least worth trying what they suggest.

Some beginners never have that sound, and others learn much more quickly. It is my private theory that this is because some people learn the skill of hearing themselves more quickly, and this skill may be what produces the prodigy. But I digress.

I just tried to reproduce the cow sound. It took some experimenting but I think I got a good approximation. Here's what worked: play a phrase in the middle range (notes in the bass clef staff) but one position off, so some awful sounding false tones. That took very tight lips, a pucker, and the effort tightened the throat. Then it was hard to not get that sound for a while, so try this experiment with caution. <smiley>

[PiccoloTrombonist1]

I looked into what causes undertones, and Wikipedia stated that on wind instruments, it’s caused by overblowing, which is how I reached that conclusion.

FYI: it pays to be careful about defining just what these terms "undertone", "overtone", and related things like "partials" and "harmonics" actually mean. Unfortunately, there isn't really a clear consensus in any of them, unless you seek out a fairly specific physics context - which musicians are generally terrible at.

They way im music the words, and overtone is a note above the note that you’re playing that makes up part of the timbre. An undertone is a note under what you are playing that makes up part of the timbre (often in a bad way)

[AndrewMeronek]

They way im music the words, and overtone is a note above the note that you’re playing that makes up part of the timbre. An undertone is a note under what you are playing that makes up part of the timbre (often in a bad way)

From the examples you've posted, I haven't heard anything I'd consider an undertone . . . so yeah. I'm not even sure if a trombone is capable of this, maybe it's a synonym for "double-buzz"?

Here's a possibly related phenomenon that violinists call "subharmonics":

[slideandtraps]

I appreciate the OP's topic of tone and another by RustBeltBass in Teaching/Learning, "Instrument=Amplifier or resonator ?" as I'm at the beginning of understanding this my self on the trombone. My first day of learning was met with belief the instrument is amplifying lip vibration similar to a Victrola horn on a phonograph amplifying an airy scratchy record.

I recall a long ago high school science class in placing a tuning fork that is barely heard at arm's length and lowered near the opening of a glass cylinder. The system of glass cylinder of an appropriately tuned length and the air at room temperature and atmospheric pressure is excited to vibrate at a very loud intensity. Now students in the class cover their ears. Not that I pursue playing which begs for one to cover their ears, but I take this experiment to be witnessing a resonating system.

Yesterday and today in practicing where I'm listening to tone, I believe the trombone as a “resonator” was below my threshold of hearing and to my ears only amplifying an early embrasure. There is a nice post here and subsequent comments about increasing air that led to this realization.

I then found a moment of experimenting with relaxing lips and exploring softness of lips against the mouthpiece to hear one moment of a markedly louder and a more pleasing tone. Was that the trombone resonating enough to hear? Just for one moment. “Wait, what was that?” and continue to explore. I listen to Jack Jenney's Stardust or Tommy Dorsey's telecine video of I'm Getting Sentimental Over You on YouTube just prior to be thinking of softness.

For the OP, as suggested here and in other topics, I plan on reaching out to Doug (hello!) when I can play a decent scale to strengthen my form and avoid ingraining not so good form and ask about mouthpieces, to encourage that.

If I was much younger I might want to know who I would be speaking with to suggest this YouTube: "Interview with Mouthpiece Maker - Doug Elliott" by Vurl Bland.

[boneagain]

OP,
The trombone family was designed and in use before there was any understanding of the physics of them. In the last couple hundred years some trombone makers have employed whatever science was out there to improve the instruments.

I find the physics stuff interesting and helpful from a design and analysis perspective.

I think, though, that the acoustics are more likely to lead to problems in sound concept than solutions.

This site has some very good summarizations of fairly current thought on brasswind acoustics:
https://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html

I mention this site because it shows ONE "characteristic" spectrum for ONE trombone note. It also has a lot about how the horn functions.

The spectrum WILL change (as you can see and hear) with volume. It will also change with range. And it will change depending on how thoroughly you set up the vibrations inside the instrument.

None of this is, IMHO, very helpful toward your goal.

So, interesting stuff but I go along with the folks who recommend even one session with Doug!
This is no reflection on your regular teacher. NONE of my teachers (some very well known) had the kind of knowldedge Doug will share with you.

And it will be valuable for the entirety of your trombone-playing life!

[AtomicClock]

From the examples you've posted, I haven't heard anything I'd consider an undertone

I don't see any "undertones" in a frequency analysis of the sample.

[PiccoloTrombonist1]

After consulting in private lessons, my issues with tone actually happened to be due to my issues with intonation in general. I would slide into the wrong position, but then lip bend up or down to play the right note, completely subconsciously.

[harrisonreed]

After consulting in private lessons, my issues with tone actually happened to be due to my issues with intonation in general. I would slide into the wrong position, but then lip bend up or down to play the right note, completely subconsciously.

Don't forget, though, that you can't even start to learn where the "right" positions are until you can slot solid pitches into wherever the slide happens to be. If you're not slotting, and on top of that your slide is not in the right place for the note you want to play, then you will have the trouble that your recording is showing.

[Mr412]

I used to have the same tone problem as the OP, I think. My instructor caught it and helped me fix it. I was simply using too much tension (not to be confused with mpc pressure on the chops) in my embouchure when playing notes from Bb on the staff, down to the bottom. My lip buzz was way too "hard" and it caused my tone to have a "too much core" sound - buzzy, if you will. What worked well for the higher notes killed my lower notes. Simple mental concept to fix, but it took me three months to retrain my embouchure and not encounter split tones. I just had to softly work my way down, stopping when the sound "broke" and slowly building up my dynamic. Opened my sound up wonderfully in the end, not only on lower notes, but every where as well.

[timothy42b]

After consulting in private lessons, my issues with tone actually happened to be due to my issues with intonation in general. I would slide into the wrong position, but then lip bend up or down to play the right note, completely subconsciously.

Wait, my guess was correct? I didn't expect that.

But you're only halfway there. What about a lip bend makes a tone bad, and how do you not do that?

[PiccoloTrombonist1]

After consulting in private lessons, my issues with tone actually happened to be due to my issues with intonation in general. I would slide into the wrong position, but then lip bend up or down to play the right note, completely subconsciously.

Wait, my guess was correct? I didn't expect that.

But you're only halfway there. What about a lip bend makes a tone bad, and how do you not do that?

Lip bends make notes sound bad because you are arguing with what the brass wants to do. The way I’m working on that is by 1.) trying to play with good pitch, even when I’m out of tune (it’s surprisingly hard) and 2.) trying to work on my slide accuracy & confidence.

[harrisonreed]

Wait, my guess was correct? I didn't expect that.

But you're only halfway there. What about a lip bend makes a tone bad, and how do you not do that?

Lip bends make notes sound bad because you are arguing with what the brass wants to do. The way I’m working on that is by 1.) trying to play with good pitch, even when I’m out of tune (it’s surprisingly hard) and 2.) trying to work on my slide accuracy & confidence.

Bold phrase doesn't compute. You can't have good pitch (a term that means you play in tune) while being out of tune.

You need to work on slotting partials. That recording you sent is unfocused sound, and not slotted at all. Just work on getting a strong sound and don't worry about where the slide is, just slot something. Once you can do that, start glissing around, up and down, while keeping a strong, slotted sound. That is how you will find where the positions are.

You will be unable to find, accurately, where the slide needs to go if you aren't slotting any sound with where the horn wants to vibrate at first. This is a tough lesson to learn without someone guiding you through it, but you can save yourself a lot of hassle and wasted effort if you just forget about the slide at first, put the slide lock on, turn off your tuner, and just focus on getting the absolute best sound you can on the first few partials. Then when you can make a nice sound, slowly move on to starting the note in a given partial, and glissing down and back up while keeping it slotted and letting the horn dictate the pitch.

Trying to learn to slot notes and accurately place the slide at the same time when you are new is like learning to put a saddle on a horse while you are already riding it bareback, and simultaneously not knowing how to ride a horse to begin with. Somehow most of us trombonists learned eventually how to do it, but it would have been a lot easier of we were taught how to put the saddle on first and how to get up into it before riding around on the horse.

[imsevimse]

Trying to learn to slot notes and accurately place the slide at the same time when you are new is like learning to put a saddle on a horse while you are already riding it bareback, and simultaneously not knowing how to ride a horse to begin with. Somehow most of us trombonists learned eventually how to do it, but it would have been a lot easier of we were taught how to put the saddle on first and how to get up into it before riding around on the horse.

Good and fun analogy

/Tom

[Olofson]

Anybode can make the cow sound, just press the lips together and use a very high air pressure. To make a trombone sound, the lips should touch just very lightly, the air flow should be faster but with lower air pressure. I do know that this info is not enough to make the good sound happen, but a good part of it.

[Olofson]

Some semantics. Lip bends and false tones does not include pressing the lips together.

[timothy42b]

Some semantics. Lip bends and false tones does not include pressing the lips together.

They should not, not when done correctly.

But it sounded like he was doing it that way. That's why I said he had only half the problem.

[hyperbolica]

...i have bad sound mixed with red sound. My goal would be yellow sound though, so I’m trying to experiment with other embouchure shapes

It's stuff like this that gets you accused of being a simulation. You followed a metaphorical example too literally. "Color" sounds isn't a useful analogy. There is no set comparison for red or yellow to a particular type of sound. Brown of course just sounds like $#!+.

In the off chance that you're a real boy, your mouth is too closed up, which is why you can't get air through it. Lower the jaw slightly, flatten the tongue against the bottom of your mouth, don't puff the cheeks. Feel like the air is a solid tube that comes up from your lungs - open the airway to let it come through to press against the back of the embouchure.

[ghmerrill]

This is like trying to teach someone to whistle after listening to his attempt at whistling and then sending him letters giving advice in a language/jargon/terminology he doesn't understand or embrace while he insists on using his own vague and largely unintelligible jargon to describe his goal and how he hasn't achieved it.

So it's progressed exactly as should be expected, despite the best efforts of a number of people to be helpful. Meanwhile, it remains unclear why the aspiring whistler hasn't simply found someone who will sit with him for about 15 minutes and clear up the fairly simple problem he's having -- rather than continuing to use social media to get some magic textual description that he'll understand and be able to employ (which is what he seems to be continually requesting).

Perhaps this is merely a symptom of a reliance on the easy accessibility of social media in favor of direct interaction, and a belief of what can be accomplished there. It's not so much that the communication is taking place in text rather than voice (though that isn't helping in this case), but that there's no teaching/learning (including a try/correct loop) taking place -- and can't be under these circumstances. So I think that the futility of this exercise has been well demonstrated at this point, and I've totally lost interest (or hope) in seeing how it turns out. Way past the appropriate time for hitting the "unsubscribe" button.

[Doug Elliott]

Exactly

[imsevimse]

...i have bad sound mixed with red sound. My goal would be yellow sound though, so I’m trying to experiment with other embouchure shapes

It's stuff like this that gets you accused of being a simulation. You followed a metaphorical example too literally. "Color" sounds isn't a useful analogy. There is no set comparison for red or yellow to a particular type of sound. Brown of course just sounds like $#!+.

Yes, this is rather weird. After I've spent time to read what the OP has written in other theads I think I need to see that video.

/Tom

[WilliamLang]

There have been a few new users that all use the same too smart/too dumb writing style and syntax lately. Like wildly specific about some areas and technical terms but really off base on others that should go hand in hand. All looking for advice, all around the same age, but writing similarly to each other and differently than most any other young person I've talked with in the last few years.

[Posaunus]

Artificially unintelligent, perhaps.

[atopper333]

Well now, it keeps coming back to the same thing. As a beginner…don’t overcomplicate the crap out of it…find someone to learn from…and practice good habits when they have been learned.

Maybe I’m just a simpleton…or came from a different era, but I sure as heck wasn’t thinking about all this stuff when I started, I just wanted to get a good sound. So many people here have offered so much good advice, advice I would have loved to have had when I started. I think it’s time to just stop the analysis and get to the playing part.

Down to brass tacks though…the over complicated and under whelming language linked together does sound a bit suspicious. It just doesn’t seem to blend right. I think harrisonreed may have called it from the start…

[Olofson]

Try firm corners and gentle blowing through the lips.Listen to Urbie Green for more than one hour.