TromboneChat

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 11:10 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:49 am

There's plenty more to that discrimination than the POWs or internment camps. Boycotting of Italian owned businessnes, slurs thrown, the list goes on. None of that affected the countries of the Axis in the slightest.

Who’s advocating for harassment of American citizens? Russian tourists though? Why should they stroll through Belgravia or along the Champs d’Elysee while Ukr hide in bomb shelters or die in Ru torture chambers?

I stand by my point.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 11:10 am Who’s advocating for harassment of American citizens? Russian tourists though? Why should they stroll through Belgravia or along the Champs d’Elysee while Ukr hide in bomb shelters or die in Ru torture chambers?

Wow, I dunno man, you got a bad case of Russian bigotry. This is like the way innocent Muslims were treated because of Al Qaeda. It's irrational, man. Step back, take a breath. You've lost the thread of reason, here. Russian tourists are no more responsible for or reflective of Russia's bad acts than Americans are for America's bad acts.

Surely you realize that the U.S. is perhaps the worst offender in the world, and has killed more civilians than any other country, invaded lots of countries (e.g. Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc.), committed more genocidal acts (Native Americans, American Blacks, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Iraqis, Vietnamese, etc.) and waged more war than any other country in the world. So stop and think how you'd like your own words reflected back to you about Americans.

IMHO, you're getting a little 'round the bend here and you could use a glass of wine and a bong hit.

i'm 100% with Aidan on this.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:34 am This smacks to me of the German/Italian/Japanese discrimination in WWII United States, or the widespread anti-Muslim sentiments after 9/11. A knee-jerk, useless, and self-destructive exercise.

Canceling a country's music because of a war is the ultimate in modern day virtue signaling. It accomplishes nothing while allowing the practitioner FEEL better about themselves.

"I have tickets to see Leonid & Freinds, but I'm not going. THAT'LL show Putin I mean business!".

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:28 am

EriKon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 3:19 am Absolutely not, never said that. It's just something that people keep forgetting to view a topic from a historic perspective. And as I also said: It's a huge difference from just sharing a socially accepted position to being an active author initiating and actively proclaiming anti-Semitism.

I think it’s pretty clear that Wagner was more the latter.

Just to avoid any miscommunication which can occur with online exchanges, I am definitely not suggesting that EriKon is some sort of Nazi sympatizer and appreciate his point of view that you also have to think about the historical context.

Fully agree with you. And I think your intentions are pretty clear, no worries. FWIW, I'm actually quite the opposite of a Nazi sympathizer. Not in an extremists way but in my political opinions and the parties that I sympathize with. Actually I always feel like music (especially jazz where I'm mostly into) is such an overall including matter that I'm always a little surprised if musicians have very conservative, not to say antiquated, opinions in terms of social acceptance for everyone, no matter which gender, colour, love interest or whatsoever.

“Wow, I dunno man, you got a bad case of Russian bigotry.”

Yep. Totally agree. I am very anti-Ru these days. But I think demonstrably not irrational.

“Surely you realize that the U.S. is perhaps the worst offender in the world …”

I’m skeptical about that assertion. There have been some really bad actors in the 20th and early 21st centuries. But I see no reason to go there in this discussion.

I will say that I am grateful the US and other NATO members continue to provide weapons to Ukr.

This war is not even that popular among the Russians. Look how many young men left the country to avoid the draft (some are even fighting for the Ukrainians). And Putin dares not call it a war, only a "special action" (sounds to me like the words used to describe Korea 1950-53).

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:50 pm This war is not even that popular among the Russians. Look how many young men left the country to avoid the draft (some are even fighting for the Ukrainians). And Putin dares not call it a war, only a "special action" (sounds to me like the words used to describe Korea 1950-53).

The men who left the country did that because they do not want to risk their lives for Putin but for what I've heard 80% of the Russians living there still support the war and a lot of the rest do not like the war but many of them still belive in Putin. The figures was before the Wagner riot so it could have changed, but chances are a new leader who replace Putin will be even worse. Not much heard from all those russians who fled the country, at least they could criticize Putin from abroad. Maybe they then are afraid what will happen to their relatives still in Russia? Anyone know more about this? Why are they silent? I believe our news do their research properly when they came up with the 80% support for the war. Most russians who before the war started already were living in Europe do not support the war and the war has therefore divided families. If they phone home to Russia the relatives living there don't even accept the fact that Russia has invaded Ukraine, they think all the civil casualties and destroyed infrastructure and cities in Ukraine is fake news, because of this many of these families avoid to talk about the war or they do not get along with their siblings or parents. Russian regime totally have a grip on media now and people belive what they hear and read there. No free press, no freedom of speach and Putin is surrounded by people who want to get at Ukraine even harder. I'm usually not commenting politics but in this case I'm really worried and do an exception. Sorry could not help.

When it comes to Russian music I can still accept to hear the great composers for reasons stated earlier in the thread, but if it happens at a public concert it is appropriate to also comment the war, if not I would probably feel awkward.

/Tom

I'll be more blunt than I was in my initial response.

Famously-dead Russian composers have nothing to do with the war, and the repertoire choices of a Canadian community orchestra are of significant consequence to precisely no one. I'm not sure removing Rachmaninoff even rises to the level of so-called virtue signalling, unless the conductor plans to turn to the audience and ask "guess what we're not playing tonight?". Furthermore, I disagree with many of Bach5G's surrounding statements, either by degree or categorically.

But certain responses here would seem to oversimplify the politics of any sort of cultural boycott. I agree that we need to remain very mindful of the extent to which the rhetorical climate can easily encourage street-level wrongs of the sort Maximilien has mentioned. In that context, eliminating Russian music is roughly at the "freedom fries" level of dumb, and should not be pursued.

But nor do I think every public choice is potentially a first step on the path to internment camps. There's a wide and complex gray area in between, and there is some value to gesture. The parallels with taking the knee are interesting. The NFL is not, fundamentally, the town square; it's a branch of the entertainment industry in which individual behavior can be contractually defined as an employer sees fit. But many of us, me included, would nonetheless defend the right of the individual to undertake symbolic actions, and recognize those actions as having some overarching communicative value even if they "achieve nothing" momentarily.

So, play the Rach. But, in your role as a festival director, would you invite a Russian orchestra to play it? Probably not, even though every member thereof may not support the war. In competitive athletics, do you (justifiably) view individual contestants as potentially blameless victims of circumstance, or do you (justifiably) recognize that these contests are overarchingly national and political in nature, and that you're not dealing with individual "discus artists" so much as the staff of a state-sponsored soft power enterprise? Do you invite the contestants, but not play the anthem at medal ceremonies? If the latter, are you not playing the anthem because of your own views on its symbolism, or are you not playing it so that the individual medalist doesn't have to stand there while it gets booed by the crowd? Either might apply. It's not simple.

I would also remind our US participants that - for better or worse - feelings on this topic are rather less abstract in countries with relevant borders and/or substantial Ukrainian refugee populations.

Not playing Rachmaninoff because of a war in 2022-present is similar to removing the Mona Lisa or the Statue of David from a museum because of WWII.

The greatest works of art of all time stand alone.

View or listen to them as art in their own right so we can preserve the good things humanity has done. Next thing you know you'll be watering the garden with Gatorade.

I'm reminded of the Taliban blowing up the Buddhas.

No Harrison. It would be more like the Buddha blowing up the Taliban.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:13 pm No Harrison. It would be more like the Buddha blowing up the Taliban.

What are you talking about? Those statues predated Islam, when the region was Buddhist. Then someone 1400 years later decided that the statues posed a threat to civil society and blew them up.

The statues had nothing to do with anything.

“The statues had nothing to do with anything”

Agreed. I don’t know why you brought them up.

A better example might be ISIS pillaging museums and destroying priceless antiquities and artifacts. Destroying the past:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructi ... amic_State

Similar in a sense to Ru destroying museums, art galleries and libraries in Ukr. They want to destroy the Ukr identity and culture. And terrorize the Ukr civilian population. They went after Odessa, a UNESCO world heritage site recently. Also a port city from which grain is shipped to Africa.

I doubt boycotting Ru music would have any effect on people who would starve millions in Africa and fire missiles into maternity hospitals.

For what it’s worth, public option polls in Russia provide basically no insight into what people there actually think.

We boycotted the Russian Olympics in 1980. It did nothing except destroy the dreams of elite American athletes who worked their entire lives to make it there. The Russians boycotted the 1984 U.S. Olympics. It did nothing but destroy the dreams of elite Russian athletes who worked their entire lives to make it there.

And yet, at the height of the Cold War the Soviets and Americans managed to do a joint space mission.

Art is art. Politics should not enter into it. Boy would I be pissed if my compositions were banned because of something Trump or Biden did. Not playing music by dead Russian composers is the ultimate cutting off your nose to spite your face, IMHO. And it accomplishes exactly nothing, except to destroy someone's concert.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:35 pm

I doubt boycotting Ru music would have any effect on people who would starve millions in Africa and fire missiles into maternity hospitals.

Then... what does it do?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 7:43 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:35 pm

I doubt boycotting Ru music would have any effect on people who would starve millions in Africa and fire missiles into maternity hospitals.

Then... what does it do?

Well, for example, in the US at least, when a prominent politician suggests something like this:

“The developments came as former President Donald Trump called for a temporary halt in U.S. military support.” (USA Today this morning)

it reminds us of what is at stake, of which side of history we want to be on.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:49 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 7:43 pm

Then... what does it do?

Well, for example, in the US at least, when a prominent politician suggests something like this:

“The developments came as former President Donald Trump called for a temporary halt in U.S. military support.” (USA Today this morning)

it reminds us of what is at stake, of which side of history we want to be on.

What does boycotting Russian music do in this case?

.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:08 pm It reminds us of what is at stake, of which side of history we want to be on.

Hm. You believe we need to be reminded? Boycotting Russian music reminds us of something we already know. But, you know, you don't want to boycott it for yourself, which you are more than welcome to do. You want to boycott it for everyone else, who might not need to be reminded, and who might enjoy the music. You want to boycott it for the musician that might get that gig specifically because of the piece(s) being played. You essentially want to ban Russian music for me. I'm not sure I'm down with that. I really don't need any reminding, so I'm not going to get a benefit from this ban. It's only a detriment to me, because I don't share your views on banning the music of a long dead dude.

You're that serious about this? You would ban it for us all, rather than simply choose not to take the gig or something? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Matt K wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 6:19 pm For what it’s worth, public option polls in Russia provide basically no insight into what people there actually think.

Yes, if the russian public state or regime asks but not if you also have other channels. As beeing so close to russia I thnk we have channels how to get closer to the truth. The information suggest a lot of russians did believe in Putin at least before the Wagner riot.

/Tom

imsevimse wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 5:15 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 6:19 pm For what it’s worth, public option polls in Russia provide basically no insight into what people there actually think.

Yes, if the russian public state or regime asks but not if you also have other channels. As beeing so close to russia I thnk we have channels how to get closer to the truth. The information suggest a lot of russians did believe in Putin at least before the Wagner riot.

/Tom

If you pick up the phone and someone claims to be "Definitely not Putin, LLC" what are the odds you answer truthfully?

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 5:46 am

imsevimse wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 5:15 am
Yes, if the russian public state or regime asks but not if you also have other channels. As beeing so close to russia I thnk we have channels how to get closer to the truth. The information suggest a lot of russians did believe in Putin at least before the Wagner riot.

/Tom

If you pick up the phone and someone claims to be "Definitely not Putin, LLC" what are the odds you answer truthfully?

That doesn't work. It has to be trust, and I know there isn't much trust, but if you consider other ways to collect information such as getting infirmation from russians living in Europe who have relatives still in Russia and base the information of what they tell then you can come more close to the truth. A poll in Russia naturally doesn't work to get the truth. The media here has considered this. Families here who have relatives back in Russia are devided because the ones who live in Europe see one truth and the relatives and friends back in Russia see another. Families that are spread on both sides of the borders often can not even discuss the situation because they in Russia still belive there is no war, and they still believe in Putin and what he does for the country. They also think Ukraine is full of Nazi's and needs to be libirated and that the west is attacking Russia through Ukraine. They support Putin and belives he is doing what needs to be done. Many russians has got a much better living standard during the years of Putin, this is why he is popular. Information through relatives and friends is what immigrants report. This might have changed after the Wagner riot, but we don't know that yet. It's not Putins war, there are others worse than Putin like Prigozhin who want to get harder at Ukraine.

/Tom

Bach5G wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:08 am I belong to a community orchestra. I see our first concert of the upcoming season features a Rachmaninov symphony. I do not think we should be performing Russian music while Russia continues to occupy Ukraine.

The Kyiv Conservatory was founded on 3 November 1913 at the Kyiv campus of the Music College of the Russian Musical Society. The organization of the conservatory was spearheaded by Sergei Rachmaninoff and Alexander Glazunov.

Over a decade after he left the Soviet Union as a political refuge, living in the United States, Rachmaninoff wrote to the New York Times:

“At no time, and in no country,” the letter read, “has there ever existed a government responsible for so many cruelties, wholesale murders and common-law crimes in general as those perpetrated by the Bolsheviki. Is it really possible that, with all his love for humanity, wisdom and philosophy, he could not find words of sympathy and pity for the Russian nation?” He was of course, speaking of a Russia distinct from the USSR, and naturally distinct from Putin's Russian Federation, which did not exist yet.

Rachmaninoff was born a citizen of Imperial Russia and died a citizen of the USA. His third piano concerto, which became very popular in the US, was composed specifically for his tour of America.

Rachmaninoff belongs to Ukraine and the US as much as Russia. He has nothing to do with this war. Boycotting him would be ignorant to the extreme.

That doesn't work. It has to be trust, and I know there isn't much trust, but if you consider other ways to collect information such as getting infirmation from russians living in Europe who have relatives still in Russia and base the information of what they tell then you can come more close to the truth.

And what I'm saying is that there should be no basis for such trust, much less something claimed to have a favorability rating of 80%. You can't even get 80% of Americans to agree that we landed on the moon. I see no evidence that community orchestras avoiding music by composers who have Russian last names will affect either the approval for the current conflict amongst the general populace or that it would sway current leadership at all. And even if it DID, as Harrison has pointed out more eloquently than I, many of the people we would be canceling are not even Russians in any meaningful sense.

“Ignorant”? Harrison? Rather harsh words don’t you think?

Here is part of the Wikipedia entry on Rach:

‘Sergei Vasilyevich Rachmaninoff[a] (1 April [O.S. 20 March] 1873 – 28 March 1943) was a Russian composer, virtuoso pianist, and conductor. Rachmaninoff is widely considered one of the finest pianists of his day and, as a composer, one of the last great representatives of Romanticism in Russian classical music. Early influences of Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, and other Russian composers gave way to a thoroughly personal idiom notable for its song-like melodicism, expressiveness, dense contrapuntal textures, and rich orchestral colours.’

Russian music, written by a composer/pianist born and educated in Russia who in later life left Russia after the Revolution. A ethnic Russian. I doubt you’ve ever heard Rach described as anything but a Russian composer. But you’re raising - well repeating actually, as someone has already pointed this out - a nit-picky argument. The issue is Russian music, not specifically Rach. (We’re also doing Borodin’s Steppes later in the season. The argument is the same.) Rach was born in Imperial Russia and Russian imperialism is ongoing notwithstanding the changes in regimes. See the reference to Davies above.

Depriving the audience of the pleasures of Rachmaninov? Yes, but replacing them with the pleasures of Dvorak.

Fully one paragraph later:

After the Russian Revolution, Rachmaninoff and his family left Russia permanently, settling in New York in 1918. Following this, he spent most of his time touring as a pianist through the US and Europe, from 1932 onwards spending his summers at his villa in Switzerland. During this time, Rachmaninoff's primary occupation was performing, and his compositional output decreased significantly, completing just six works after leaving Russia. By 1942, his declining health led him to move to Beverly Hills, California, where he died from melanoma in 1943.

Please note: Ukraine was part of Russia for more time in the last 400 years than it hasn't. People writing about Ukrainians will call them Russians. Conflating Ukrainians as Russians really flies in the face of what's happening now.

So is a Professor at the Ukrainian Conservatory in Kiev the same as a modern day Russian? In 1928 he would be considered Russian. In 1995 he wouldn't.

But Ukrainians have always considered themselves different from Russians, much like Georgians and Azerbaijanis have.

Note that Stalin was a Georgian.

This thread doesn't belong in performance. It is mostly non-music related, and political in nature. If you're going to allow this sort of thing, at least make a place to put it where it can be ignored. It stopped serving the original question long ago.

So far it has circled around the topic of should the music has been played but that's a fair. Moved to tangents for now if it goes too far astray might lock.

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 7:23 am

That doesn't work. It has to be trust, and I know there isn't much trust, but if you consider other ways to collect information such as getting infirmation from russians living in Europe who have relatives still in Russia and base the information of what they tell then you can come more close to the truth.

And what I'm saying is that there should be no basis for such trust....

If there are reports of families who can't even discuss the war because they don't agree on the truth about the war AND Putin, then you can ask them why? The answers can be used as parameters to calculate the statistics. Russians living abroad recorded in Europe, measuring more than 6 million people in 2020 and in the beginning of the war 500 000 to 1 million more fled Russia to other countries. There are many russians outside Russia who have relatives and connections in Russia.These immigrants can answer a poll truthfully on behalf of what they know because they do not risk consequences.
Russians in Russia supports Putin and the war. This sums up to it's not just Putins war, but I know we prefer to think it is.

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 7:23 am You can't even get 80% of Americans to agree that we landed on the moon.

Acctually I'm not surprised, but that may be local. I would be very surprised if less than 99% of native Swedes over 50 did not believe you (USA) landed on the moon, but that's another story.

...and note that I don't want to ban Russian music.

/Tom

Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:23 am “Ignorant”? Harrison? Rather harsh words don’t you think?
....

Russian music, written by a composer/pianist born and educated in Russia who in later life left Russia after the Revolution. A [sic] ethnic Russian. I doubt you’ve ever heard Rach described as anything but a Russian composer.

Not harsh at all. Ignorant? Absolutely, yes. And racist too, I guess. Ignorant and racist. That's all I have to say about boycotting music written by a person who died a US citizen 70+ years ago, because of a perceived connection of a war in 2022-present and that deceased US citizen's ethnicity.

Are Russians a “race” Harrison? Is “American”?

Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 12:45 pm Are Russians a “race” Harrison?

Ugh, let me act as a dictionary for you too:

"Racism is discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity. Racism can be present in social actions, practices, or political systems (e.g. apartheid) that support the expression of prejudice or aversion in discriminatory practices."

Ethic Russian was your term, and it's accurate too. So...if you weigh the same as a duck...then you must be made of wood...and therefore ....

Look bottom line, everything is in Flux. Nobody is perfect. You can read about Rach more, and decide to not boycott him. Or don't decide that. Just do the right thing.

Ethnic Russian. There are many ethnic groups in Russia. Wikipedia lists 193. Indeed, there was a complaint that many of the early conscripts were from non-Russian ethnic groups, from northern and eastern Russia. But, I’ll give you this point Harrison: being anti-Russian is racist. Ok. I accept that. Better that in the current circumstances than pro-Russian.

But Rach was a Russian by birth (Novgorad Oblast), by language, by religion (likel Russian Orthodox), by education and training (Moscow Conservatory). He may have become an American citizen later in life (he died in Beverly Hills) but most people would consider him a Russian composer as demonstrated by the Wikipedia entry.

Maybe it’s time to close this thread. Most of the intelligent discussion has already occurred (I am grateful to Tom for the Swedish perspective) and it’s degenerated to the usual name-calling (“racist”, “ignorant”) To be fair, Godwin’s Law hasn’t engaged. There’s that.

Agreed. Locking.