Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review

[tbonesullivan]

I’m the owner of the gold plated 8130G that Aidan mentioned. I’ve been looking for one for quite a while and finally found this one on eBay a little over a month ago. It has some crazy mods on it that appear to be factory made (thicker outer slide brace and tuning slide snakes), same with the gold plating, it’s very high quality so I’m pretty sure it was done in house. Absolutely amazing horn! I also own a 613G and despite the 2 horns looking very similar they both have completely different playing characteristics despite feeling very similar to the player.

...I took it to Brad Close for some minor dent removal and according to him, he had to apply a lot more force than usual, said that the metal is not as soft as “normal” Yamahas and seems to be of much higher quality.

The smaller outer side brace seems to be a bit divisive, as Yamaha lists it as a feature, but I have seen reviews that list it as a complaint.

Looking up stuff on the 8130G horns I saw some mention of K-metal bells that have a "K" stamp on the bell. The metal is supposed to be copied from an alloy used by German maker "Kühnl", I guess Kühnl & Hoyer.

[IdoMeshulam]

I'm pretty sure the slide brace on mine was a special order, all the other 8130's I've seen had a smaller brace like on the 613G.

Mine does not have a "K" stamp on the bell and I've only ever seen one 8130 with that stamp (most likely the same one you've seen). Like Aidan mentioned, I think the softer metal was introduced when the 613H/622 models came out.

[PSJ]

I am coming a bit late to this. I played a 613R for 25+ years. It was between the 613 and 613G. The 613R had a red brass bell, the 613G, gold brass. Mine did not come with the Gb slide which I was told was an option. This was ok with me since I much prefer G. The 613R had a narrower slide than the 613G. I finally had to replace the 613R slide due to red rot and all I could get was the 613G slide. I think the 613R played a bit better with the original narrow slide.

In the late '80s I got to sit down and compare the 2 extensively with Johnny Woody who was a Yamaha rep at the time. My 613R and 613G bell sections played very much the same. Really couldn't tell the difference with the same slide. The difference was the 613G slide. Wider and from what we could tell a different lead pipe.

The 613R served me will for a long time in all settings until I found a better horn.

My thoughts.......

[bassclef]

I just bought an 813UG. Should make it to Ohio from Japan sometime next week.

In the meantime, except for a few dedicated attempts to make a 6B work for me, I've been playing Yamaha basses for 27 years.

On the left is a YBL-613 which, until 2-3 years ago, had been my daily driver since the late 90's. I bought it new from a music store in Cleveland which had it for a while and it had recently been discontinued for the 613H. When I was trying it out I was there with my then-girlfriend and her parents who were there to purchase two top of the line Buffet clarinets. I liked it and was in the back office with the owner of the store when he mentioned since my parents had just handed him several thousand for my sister's horns (I didn't correct him) and it was a discontinued model, he'd sell it to me for $1400. Done deal.

It has a few differences from almost all other 613's I've seen here, in the wild & on Ebay over the years. It has the lightweight brass "narrow" slide, only one brace between the f-attachment tubing and the tuning slide receiver and the valve casing are brass instead of nickel. I think that means it's an earlier example of this model. It did everything I asked of it in all settings. Nice, easy "commercial" sound but I never found it too hard to steer in the other direction.

It (of course) has the flaky plating on the inner slide stockings and over time developed a couple dozen spots of red rot on the crook and I had just about worn through the lower slide tube where I hold it. I found a tech who would reluctantly rebuild the slide for me, but recommended I purchase an entire 421 slide assembly instead. I was mulling that over when I saw the YBL-621 pop up at a pawn shop in Columbus while browsing eBay during intermission of a weekday matinee I was playing. After the exit music, I hit interstate 71 south and picked it up.

Even though it's in fantastic shape, and quite rare, I wasn't the market for a single valve. I bought it because the slide looked identical to the narrow 613 slide. Other than the model number engraved on the mouthpiece receiver, I was right. Boom - super low mileage 613 replacement slide acquired. Otherwise, I am actually really happy to have the 621, it plays and sounds GREAT. I get pretty excited when I have a job I can do with one valve because this horn is awesome. It might look like a 321 from a distance, but it's much nicer in construction, playability and sound, in my experience.

I was thinking about putting a double vale section on the 621, but I ended up really getting along with a 620G instead. Excellent big band horn, love it with my bone quintet + rhythm section, brass quartet and actually does quite well for me in a large trombone choir. I started bass on a set of dependent valves, so I wasn't terrified of not having a Gb valve. Other than having to relearn a few Thad/Mel bass bone lines in tunes I end up playing somewhat regularly, I don't miss it all that much. Well, other that that super-easy fat pedal F in Gb 2nd. I have found the 620G to be an incredibly versatile sounding horn, once I stopped letting my eyes stop setting my expectations for how it will sound.

I've been in the market for a 613H, but barely missed a couple nice ones which came up recently. Can't wait to see what the 813UG is like.

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[chromebone]

I was a student of Steve Norrell; I’ve played on his prototype 613h and I have one of my own. His plays and sounds very different from my production horn; he had a very short leadpipe in his; at the time of the development of the 613h, he was playing without a leadpipe on his Bach, I don’t recall him playing without a leadpipe on the Yamaha, but the prototype sounds more open and more Bach-like than my production horn.

[Burgerbob]

Been enjoying my 613 the last year or so. Great horn, and I wasn't looking for a replacement. However, this Japan-only YBL-630G showed up on ebay and I nabbed it-



It's an odd duck! Just so we're clear, here's a timeline of Yamaha indy bass trombones that were widely distributed-

613
613H
830

However, the 630 is a mashup of the 613 and 613H. It has the slide, gooseneck, tuning slide, and bell of the older model, with the valve section from the 613H. I wonder how long they were produced, and how many- I haven't seen any evidence of them until now.

Anyway, it plays great. It may be a replacement for my 613, as it has a bit better high range and doesn't really seem to suffer in any major way in comparison. Neat!

[harrisonreed]

I like the look of that horn.

[Burgerbob]

I like the look of that horn.

Yeah, it's simple. I dig it.

[tbonesullivan]

Oh wow, that is interesting! No brace on the tuning slide? That gives it a nice open look I'm not used to seeing on Yamaha Trombones.

Does it have the G and Gb slides for the second valve like the 613H? Yamaha definitely made (and continues to make) a wide variety of bass trombones. part of me misses their old 1 piece cork barrel design, but I guess they wanted their professional slides to look more "American" or something.

[Burgerbob]

Oh wow, that is interesting! No brace on the tuning slide? That gives it a nice open look I'm not used to seeing on Yamaha Trombones.

Does it have the G and Gb slides for the second valve like the 613H? Yamaha definitely made (and continues to make) a wide variety of bass trombones. part of me misses their old 1 piece cork barrel design, but I guess they wanted their professional slides to look more "American" or something.

Yes, it came with a G slide and- thank science- the Gb slide as well, or I probably wouldn't have bought it.

[bassclef]

I like the look of that horn.

Yeah, it's simple. I dig it.

I was eye-balling that 630 when it was on eBay.

I really appears to be an independent version of the current 620G (which shares a few parts with the 613). The slide looks like the one they sell with the 620G's everywhere but in the USA where they come with a nickel slide instead. Does it have a 9.5" bell with an unsoldered rim? The minimal bracing makes sense too as there are none on the 620G, it's all held together via small braces at various points on the "semi-open" wrap. I can totally see it as a 620G with a 613H valve section.

I'm glad you didn't have any problems with the purchase. I had a bad experience with the same seller a few weeks ago. I bought a Yamaha bass, a week later I finally get a tracking number which turned out to be for an envelope which got delivered a couple states away. I asked what was up with that, he said FedEx lost the horn I bought and gave me a refund. I have access to FedEx premier customer service, and they said he never even created a label with my address. I casually asked the seller earlier this week if that horn turned up, to which he said no but told me "FedEx paid him a warranty" and he bought another one of the same model, took different pics and listed it for more that $1k more than I paid the first time. It's absolutely 100% the exact same horn when comparing some of the blemishes in both listings' photos.

Sorry for the digression. If you decide to move along that 630, I am definitely interested (already have a 613)!

[Burgerbob]

I really appears to be an independent version of the current 620G (which shares a few parts with the 613). The slide looks like the one they sell with the 620G's everywhere but in the USA where they come with a nickel slide instead. Does it have a 9.5" bell with an unsoldered rim? The minimal bracing makes sense too as there are none on the 620G, it's all held together via small braces at various points on the "semi-open" wrap. I can totally see it as a 620G with a 613H valve section.

Strange! I had no problems, I only bought this a week and a couple days ago. It came FAST.

It's definitely a 613G in all ways but the valves- it's a 10" rose bell just like the 613G, tuning slides are compatible, slides are identical.

[bassclef]

Strange! I had no problems, I only bought this a week and a couple days ago. It came FAST.

It's definitely a 613G in all ways but the valves- it's a 10" rose bell just like the 613G, tuning slides are compatible, slides are identical.

Gotcha, thanks for the correction(s). I thought it may have been the same 9.5" gold bell as on the 620G. Cool find, sounds good in your video too!

[SquareTube]

Thanks Aidan, and all, for the info. good to know the early 613 is like an independent 612. I won't cross that one of my list! I'm much more of TR180/62H guy, so the 613H and later are less interesting to me personally. I also note that I prefer valve slides on the "outboard" side of the bell. It interferes less with my neck, and allows me to center the mouthpiece on my chops without angling the horn or putting pressure on my head/jaw. Even the dog leg "kickout" on the 2nd valve can cause me issues with some configurations. There is a tradeoff with the side to side balance, but going a bit less than 90deg on the slide/bell angle gets my wrist closer to lining up under the center of gravity.

I had a chance to play a 612(R?) a few months back, and I was surprised at how much I liked it, and even preferred it to my TR180 in some ways. The valves are better for sure, especially with my Holton rotors being as worn and leaky as they are (I can see bubbles coming up from around the spindle under the cap when pressurized, and around the edge of the plates, too...) Given the solid design and performance of the Yamaha valves, they're a strong contender for replacing the Holton valves rather than plating/refitting. The port configuration is also designed to accommodate the rotors being in the plane of the bell, which is my preference, and would approximate the original layout. That would streamline my project, and it helps that Yamaha parts aren't too expensive. Could be a nice alternative to Instrument Innovations in this instance.

Nate

[ndaley9]

Just remember, never trust anything Ido says...
I kid. The yamahas with the snakes on them are definitely the best!

[davidk]

Great info!
Love the comparisons and additional input from the community!!!

[Burgerbob]

Finally, after 4(!) attempts to buy one one from Japan, the 5th try was the charm. I got my own 8130!

As you can see, the horn is in nearly immaculate shape. It was obviously played a bit, but either babied or just not used much.

It's hard to put into words just how much better this is than any Xeno bass I've played- the 835D is the only thing that has come close whatsoever, and it's a totally different vibe in any case.

I currently have 822 valve caps on, just for the bling... we'll see if it plays better this way too.

The original case is also great, much like the Xeno cases but just... cooler.

This horn also feels much more solid than other Yamahas. The 6XX horns are very light, but they feel ALMOST flimsy in a way, especially at high dynamics. Xenos feel soft, because they literally are- those bells and braces are like putty! This horn is like any boutique in quality.

Notice the mouthpiece engagement- the Hammond there has a line farther up the shank where it fits into Xenos.

For a Gb slide, I use a stock Bach 50B F slide- no G tuning for me!

[hornbuilder]

Looks like the old 613 closed wrap, with a new bell and handslide?

[bassclef]

NICE.

Might have the 613 leadpipe maybe? I know that one takes a "normal" amount of shank.

[Tbarh]

Aidan,How old (approximately) is it?

[Burgerbob]

Looks like the old 613 closed wrap, with a new bell and handslide?

Yes, it's the same general design but every part is better. I'm not kidding- even the tuning slide fitment is improved. Should have mentioned the trim rings on everything, something Yamaha didn't do at the time!

NICE.

Might have the 613 leadpipe maybe? I know that one takes a "normal" amount of shank.

My 613s and 630G (I've had 3 of those earlier horns!) all took the mouthpiece a bit more than usual, like the modern Xenos.

Aidan,How old (approximately) is it?

Ido would know better than me, but I believe these are from the late '80s. The serials are specific to the Custom line, and of course Yamaha serials are not public anyway.

[bassclef]

NICE.

Might have the 613 leadpipe maybe? I know that one takes a "normal" amount of shank.

My 613s and 630G (I've had 3 of those earlier horns!) all took the mouthpiece a bit more than usual, like the modern Xenos.

Interesting, my narrow 613 slide & 621 slide (both pictured above in this thread) and modern 620G slide all take the "normal" amount of shank, while my 613H receiver does the deep Xeno 830 thing.

I actually just measured the distance between the black rings on the shank of one of my main GB's I use with all of the above and they're exactly 3/16" apart

[bassclef]

Also, is that 8130 bell rim soldered or no?

[Burgerbob]

My 613s and 630G (I've had 3 of those earlier horns!) all took the mouthpiece a bit more than usual, like the modern Xenos.

Interesting, my narrow 613 slide & 621 slide (both pictured above in this thread) and modern 620G slide all take the "normal" amount of shank, while my 613H receiver does the deep Xeno 830 thing.

I actually just measured the distance between the black rings on the shank of one of my main GB's I use with all of the above and they're exactly 3/16" apart

I will mention that all three of my earlier 6XX series had wide slides- I think the narrow ones were different.\

Also, is that 8130 bell rim soldered or no?

Yes!

[tbonesullivan]

Interesting, my narrow 613 slide & 621 slide (both pictured above in this thread) and modern 620G slide all take the "normal" amount of shank, while my 613H receiver does the deep Xeno 830 thing.

The 613H and 830 use the exact same leadpipe: "D2530700 M'PIPE ASS'Y YBL813UG"

In the parts catalog there is also a YBL-613HS (silver) and the YBL-613HEL, which I have no idea about.

Yamaha does love to use the same parts for a lot of trombones. The D0930701 is for the 412G, 611, 612, 620, and others.

The YBL-613 and 613R are listed as having leadpipe D0930700, but the D0930701 is listed as an "alternate part" in the parts catalog, which is interesting. I just wish the parts catalog covered the Japanese models as well.

[tbonesullivan]

Looks like the old 613 closed wrap, with a new bell and handslide?

very interestingly, the parts diagram for the YBL-613 bass on the catalog website has YBL-8130G all over it....

https://parts-search.yamaha.co.jp/html/ ... _id=104568

[hornbuilder]

It is interesting the number of "order stop" call outs on those parts lists

[tbonesullivan]

It is interesting the number of "order stop" call outs on those parts lists

Yeah, so I guess I better not break too many pieces on my YBL-612 RII. I mean I guess there's a limit to how long they are going to make some of the parts that aren't used on any trombones anymore.

There is one thing of interest that I noted recently. Apparently for bass trombones (and probably tenor) Yamaha has discontinued all lacquered nickel silver rotary valve covers, and they are only available in silver plate.

For a Yamaha 830, the original D2542010 VALVE CASING CAP YBL813UG has been replaced with W2584400 BL613HS ROTARY CAP SI-PTD.

The D8A41250 LEVER ADJUSTING PLATE SL882U-2 pad that goes on the F trigger has been replaced with D7D41250 LEVER ADJUSTING PLATE SI-PTD YSL882US2.

And, the D9D41250 E FLAT LEVER ADJUSTING PLATE YBL-830 has been replaced with WP921800 BL830 LEVER2 FINGER PLATE ASS'Y SI-PTD

I didn't know this when I posted about my YBL-830 having silver plated parts at the Bass Trombone Facebook group, and one person said "there is a transition at Yamaha, that it is not allowed to use lacquer on nickel silver parts were a player could be in contact with. Has to do with European rules". Not sure why this doesn't affect the cork barrels. I checked on the YBL-835, and sure enough the Gb paddle is listed as "BL835 LEVER 2 ADJUSTING PLATE SET SI-PTD", so this appears to be true. Also on the trombones that don't have the "pad" on the F-lever, which is actually the same lever for most trombones, they have a silver plated lever.

[hornbuilder]

Many of the "order stop" parts are used on current production horns though ??

Yes. Europe is instigating a ban on nickel, which is already having an impact on brass instrument manufacture. One maker (can't recall the name) recently won an award for producing a trumpet that contained no nickel or lead.