TromboneChat

Playing these notes regularly, they each take on their own character.  Then imagining the note to be played can bring to mind the peculiar sound it is, and along with it the entire constellation of feel and do that makes it happen. 

Listening to others play, often the note played is totally obvious, not so much by the pitch, but because it sounds like the note it is. 

Trombone kinesthesia. 

Quote from: baileyman on Nov 09, 2017, 03:00PMPlaying these notes regularly, they each take on their own character.  Then imagining the note to be played can bring to mind the peculiar sound it is, and along with it the entire constellation of feel and do that makes it happen. 

Listening to others play, often the note played is totally obvious, not so much by the pitch, but because it sounds like the note it is. 

Trombone kinesthesia. 

Interesting thought.

Maybe I noticed that this evening. Perhaps there is a hair-split difference between being able to mentally sing a high note and yet still somehow mentally perceiving it within the context of the music, especially if there is a nice background track.   

Or maybe the notion of not being able to mentally sing higher than vocalizing is just not true, which is probably the case.

...Geezer

I might have to rethink this.

In rehearsal I've been missing high notes by a partial (or more) high.  I've been attributing that to not hearing them, which is certainly a component.

But in this morning's warmup, I chipped the first note high.  Hmm.  I start in the center of my range (F above the staff) and work up and down.  Didn't I buzz that note first?  So I continued, singing notes before playing them, and chipping them high.  Alternating between singing and buzzing, I proved it is not only possible but easy to chip a note in the range F4 to Bb4 after hearing the pitch clearly.  Interestingly, I chipped them all high.  (I was singing a light head voice and had no trouble with the Bb this morning.) 

Consistently missing upper notes on the high side means you're aiming too high in one or more mechanical functions - tongue placement or shape, chops (in multiple ways), mouthpiece pressure, or the mouthpiece is too small for you (or too big - it can work both ways).

Sometimes high notes aren't as high as you think, even when you hear them accurately.

Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 10, 2017, 06:26AMI might have to rethink this.

In rehearsal I've been missing high notes by a partial (or more) high....  

That used to happen to me too. I had a lesson with Doug, and a lesson with a local professor, and figured out my buzz is consistently about 1/2 step higher than the note I was trying to play. Which answered some other issues, because on all horns, I have to pull my tuning slide out 2-3 inches. I think it was how I was hearing the buzz through my skull. Plus, I have the problem where I can buzz high, but can't buzz low, probably from using an aperture that's too small.

Anyway, trying to keep my buzz low, moving to a bigger rim, hearing the sound in my head, not trying to make the sound physically added up to fewer cracked notes for me. Last night at orchestra rehearsal I had to start the rehearsal by picking a high A out at FF. I cracked the first one, but nailed everything after that because I had the tonal reference in my head. Didn't matter what octave, my head was "in the key of A", and I knew what it felt like to play an A. The added benefit of getting the tonality in your head is that if you have studied enough intervals, you can reference any other pitch off that key of A in your head, like a C#, you can just pick it out, and play it with some confidence. If you can hear it and you can feel it, you can play it.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Nov 10, 2017, 08:22AM

Sometimes high notes aren't as high as you think, even when you hear them accurately.

Makes sense.  Hearing the note seems to be a "necessary but not sufficient" condition. 

I play first in community band, average range is only up to G, rarely above.  Those notes I hear clearly, but sometimes chip high (I recorded the last two rehearsals to check on my playing.)  It might be I'm considering things "high" when they once were, but are no longer.

I play third in bone choir, range is about a 4th higher.  Those notes I don't hear well and may end up a partial off. 

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Nov 10, 2017, 08:22AMConsistently missing upper notes on the high side means you're aiming too high in one or more mechanical functions - tongue placement or shape, chops (in multiple ways), mouthpiece pressure, or the mouthpiece is too small for you (or too big - it can work both ways).

Sometimes high notes aren't as high as you think, even when you hear them accurately.
This is very much my issue, I'm consistently overshooting high notes by a partial or two.  I've never played with a lot of pressure, but it's possible the 7C mouthpiece I'm using on my 3B is too small for me (I usually play a Doug Yeo on Bass Trombone, and a Bach 12 on Tuba, and the Remington on my 88H, and I play a Lehman M on Euphonium) So I know this is quite a mishmash of mouthpieces and for the most part it works for me, I get a pretty good sound on all of them, and players I respect tell me they like my tone quality.  I think it may be more a matter of I'm thinking the notes are higher than they really are.  I really have been concentrating on hearing the note before I play it and that advice seems to be helping quite a bit.  If I don't continue to improve at it I may decide to try a bigger mouthpiece, but I try not to switch mouthpieces until I'm really sure that is the issue and practice isn't going to solve it.

Quote from: Radar on Nov 11, 2017, 06:31AMThis is very much my issue, I'm consistently overshooting high notes by a partial or two.  I've never played with a lot of pressure, but it's possible the 7C mouthpiece I'm using on my 3B is too small for me (I usually play a Doug Yeo on Bass Trombone, and a Bach 12 on Tuba, and the Remington on my 88H, and I play a Lehman M on Euphonium) So I know this is quite a mishmash of mouthpieces and for the most part it works for me, I get a pretty good sound on all of them, and players I respect tell me they like my tone quality.  I think it may be more a matter of I'm thinking the notes are higher than they really are.  I really have been concentrating on hearing the note before I play it and that advice seems to be helping quite a bit.  If I don't continue to improve at it I may decide to try a bigger mouthpiece, but I try not to switch mouthpieces until I'm really sure that is the issue and practice isn't going to solve it.

I play an Al Kay signature mouthpiece on my Yamaha 891z. This is equivalent to a Bach 11C on a 3B, but the Kay is consistent and optimized. I play a Griego .75 on my 830 bass, which is a pretty big mouthpiece like the Yeo. Switching horns back and forth between pieces is not a big deal for me.

I use mostly lip compression as the main feature of my embouchure. My life experiences have shown me that physical core strength is a better recipe for success than many other approaches, and I've got myself to a place where I can build that strength in my embouchure. A post here isn't going to help you change anything, but I mention it only to say it is possible.

Many of the ideas posted on what other people are doing make my head hurt. They confuse me, but trombone playing is a very personal journey.

Quote from: Radar on Nov 09, 2017, 06:59AMThanks again for all of the great suggestions, and discussion!!  I'm definately working on trying to hear the tune before playing it, and thinking it an octave down first has seemed to help some.  The more I play up there the easier it does seem to get, which seems like a much too obvious and overly simplified solution but it is working. 

Looks like you have gotten lots of great suggestions! And you probably don't need more.
But as someone who has just recently acquired this skill, and for the sake of future readers, I wanted to share things that I noticed along the path to getting there.

- What people are saying about "hearing the note before you play it" is right, but I think it's also more than that. Remember how it feels in your muscles, in the air, and also hold the sound of the note in your head if possible. Even if you can't "hear" the note, thinking "high" and having a muscle memory of what the note "feels" like is very helpful.

- Be playing a horn that you trust. If the horn is fighting you, you're going to be hesitant even trying to hit those notes. This isn't to say that "it's the horn's fault" if you can't hit the note...more like, you need to know your trombone's specific characteristics. My Williams 6 can be absolutely trusted with any note I ask of it in the high register; as long as I provide air and Think Happy Thoughts, the note will be there. My Minick .500 is less willing to work with me, it has a higher back pressure and so requires that I use the air a different way if I want to hit that one high note every time. Know how to work together with your trombone.

- Practice hitting it. Duh

Quote from: Radar on Nov 11, 2017, 06:31AMThis is very much my issue, I'm consistently overshooting high notes by a partial or two.  I've never played with a lot of pressure, but it's possible the 7C mouthpiece I'm using on my 3B is too small for me (I usually play a Doug Yeo on Bass Trombone, and a Bach 12 on Tuba, and the Remington on my 88H, and I play a Lehman M on Euphonium) So I know this is quite a mishmash of mouthpieces and for the most part it works for me, I get a pretty good sound on all of them, and players I respect tell me they like my tone quality.  I think it may be more a matter of I'm thinking the notes are higher than they really are.  I really have been concentrating on hearing the note before I play it and that advice seems to be helping quite a bit.  If I don't continue to improve at it I may decide to try a bigger mouthpiece, but I try not to switch mouthpieces until I'm really sure that is the issue and practice isn't going to solve it.

Like you, I swap mpc sizes/shapes. The concept of one rim size fits all doesn't resonate with me. I truly like different rim sizes for the different horns I use and they all feel comfortable and natural on my face with almost no getting-used-to time when I swap.

Anyway, overshooting is a wee bit problematic for me as well, but I have found that both practice and knowing there is that tendency when going from large to small is helpful to minimize it.

I agree. Time will tell.

...Geezer

Quote from: Radar on Nov 11, 2017, 06:31AMThis is very much my issue, I'm consistently overshooting high notes by a partial or two.  I've never played with a lot of pressure, but it's possible the 7C mouthpiece I'm using on my 3B is too small for me (I usually play a Doug Yeo on Bass Trombone, and a Bach 12 on Tuba, and the Remington on my 88H, and I play a Lehman M on Euphonium) So I know this is quite a mishmash of mouthpieces and for the most part it works for me, I get a pretty good sound on all of them, and players I respect tell me they like my tone quality.  I think it may be more a matter of I'm thinking the notes are higher than they really are.  I really have been concentrating on hearing the note before I play it and that advice seems to be helping quite a bit.  If I don't continue to improve at it I may decide to try a bigger mouthpiece, but I try not to switch mouthpieces until I'm really sure that is the issue and practice isn't going to solve it.

Like you, I swap mpc sizes/shapes. The concept of one rim size fits all doesn't resonate with me. I truly like different rim sizes for the different horns I use and they all feel comfortable and natural on my face with almost no getting-used-to time when I swap.

Anyway, overshooting is a wee bit problematic for me as well, but I have found that both practice and knowing there is that tendency when going from large to small is helpful to minimize it.

I agree. Time will tell.

...Geezer