High Register, whisper g closed teeth and other "cheats"

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:42 am

Paul The Trombonist interviews Dick Nash

The whole 9 minute interview is terrific, but for Dick's little explanation of how he coached JJ into playing a high F, see around mile marker 6:30.

...Geezer

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:55 am

For a lot of upstream players, the feel is very much like a downstream embouchure including feeling like rolling in for high range even though that's not actually what's happening.

ttf_Wilktone · Post by **ttf_Wilktone** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:21 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jan 02, 2018, 10:42AM Paul The Trombonist interviews Dick Nash

The whole 9 minute interview is terrific, but for Dick's little explanation of how he coached JJ into playing a high F, see around mile marker 6:30.
Awesome, thanks! I'll check it out soon.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jan 02, 2018, 10:55AMFor a lot of upstream players, the feel is very much like a downstream embouchure including feeling like rolling in for high range even though that's not actually what's happening.

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me. For me it doesn't feel anything like rolling my lower lip. I just tried it and I can't ascend using anything that feels to me like I'm rolling my lower lip. I wonder if that's because back in the day when I played downstream I was using a true lower lip roll and I'm aware of the feeling of the difference now.

To me, it suggests that when we teach or communicate to others about how we're playing we should make an effort to distinguish between playing sensations and reality. One player's "rolling the lower lip" is another's "retrieve the lower lip."

Dave

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:19 pm

Well the feeling of any type of adjustment depends on where you're starting. That's why it can be impossible to adequately describe a position of the lip or jaw or tongue to different people... Depends entirely on where it is already.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:31 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jan 02, 2018, 10:42AM Paul The Trombonist interviews Dick Nash

The whole 9 minute interview is terrific, but for Dick's little explanation of how he coached JJ into playing a high F, see around mile marker 6:30.

...Geezer
I don´t understand what Dick is saying, to me it sounds like " I cut the crow with my chop" that to me is just what??? What is he saying and what does it mean? around 6:30 i think.

ttf_ENelson · Post by **ttf_ENelson** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:13 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jan 04, 2018, 02:31AMI don´t understand what Dick is saying, to me it sounds like " I cut the crow with my chop" that to me is just what??? What is he saying and what does it mean? around 6:30 i think.

At 6:36:
"I tuck and curl my chops."

He rolls in his lip(s).

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:43 am

Quote from: ENelson on Jan 04, 2018, 03:13AMAt 6:36:
"I tuck and curl my chops."

He rolls in his lip(s).
Thank you

That make sence, not the same as just roll in the lower lip though.

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:48 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jan 04, 2018, 07:43AMThank you

That make sence, not the same as just roll in the lower lip though.

And here is where we get into the problem of describing things.

If you told me to roll in my lower lip or told me to tuck and curl it, I'd do the exact same thing. I just tried it. No difference.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:58 am

Quote from: Exzaclee on Jan 04, 2018, 07:48AMAnd here is where we get into the problem of describing things.

If you told me to roll in my lower lip or told me to tuck and curl it, I'd do the exact same thing. I just tried it. No difference.

FWIW; I agree.

AND it's perhaps where students who are un-instructed or who do not diligently heed their instructor get into trouble trying to follow well-intentioned advice on this or any other Forum. These kinds of threads and their comments posted may make good gab, but that's about all.

When I want to earnestly find out about some aspect of playing, I ask my instructor. Period.

OBTW; I kinda like Sven's "cut the crow" interpretation. It stuck in my craw.

...Geezer

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:26 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jan 04, 2018, 07:58AM
When I want to earnestly find out about some aspect of playing, I ask my instructor. Period.

OBTW; I kinda like Sven's "cut the crow" interpretation. It stuck in my craw.

...Geezer

FWIW, I don't have a formal instructor. I rely on my experience as a trumpet player to all thing related to embouchure, but sometimes the bigger mp requires slightly different approach. So I do read these threads, and sometimes try things that I have read about. Sometimes it works for me, sometimes not.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:08 pm

Quote from: bonenick on Jan 04, 2018, 11:26AMFWIW, I don't have a formal instructor. I rely on my experience as a trumpet player to all thing related to embouchure, but sometimes the bigger mp requires slightly different approach. So I do read these threads, and sometimes try things that I have read about. Sometimes it works for me, sometimes not.

If you have enough experience with a firm grasp of the fundamentals or are otherwise truly gifted, you can possibly self-teach. Most students who are beginners probably can not self-teach to a high level, especially the younger ones. For even us older ones, personal instruction is usually best.

I drive three hours one way for instruction about once a month. If you live somewhere that makes even THAT extremely difficult or impossible, there is always Skype. Probably THE value of this Forum is in making human connections.

That's just an opinion, like anything else on this Forum...

Anyway, I think the topic is Whisper G. We digress...

Good luck!

...Geezer

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:51 pm

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jan 04, 2018, 07:43AMThank you

That make sence, not the same as just roll in the lower lip though.
He did not say roll the lower lip in. Tuck and curl in the chops. Looking at the video it is looking like he roll both lips in, witch I would guess anyway.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:43 am

Disclaimer: the unfurled embouchure makes me sound brighter, both on trumpet and trombone (so does the jaws alignment) I find it efficient, but not necessarily something appropriate for an orchestral player, or somebody who looks to sound big and dark).

A side observation: I recorded myself with my smart phone camera, after more than a month break...I sounded awful. Recording using on a SM137 sounded fine....room acoustics and a bad audio pickup from the phone camera did fool me.

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:37 am

I think that many students look for a (upper range) concept that resonates for them, and reject the advice of players who DO have a solid integrated upper register. Or they are doing it right but haven't spent enough time on it yet. I also wonder if the material available to me as a student has gone out of print, or been replaced which has left a hole. I certainly had a lot of hand written exercises given to me that I've memorised that have been invaluable..

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:11 am

As a student, here is a problem I foresee with the Whisper G approach.

Unless I misunderstand the concept, it is a muscle-building exercise. While a strong muscular embouchure IS important, it is NOT the start point for high-range building. The start point is conceptualization of the technique for playing high. Exercises then re-enforce that technique AND build the muscle to support it.

But if we ignore technique as the start-point, then we run the risk of high-range playing becoming a smash-mouth endeavor. That will fail at worst or cap our range at a certain point at best.

...Geezer

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:18 am

My feeling about the Whisper-G exercise is that it helps to isolate the muscles that should be used in a strong embouchure. I'm not even sure it builds strength better than other exercises.

Whisper G is not the first chapter in the video series, so I would not look at it as much of a starting point. Maybe it is useful for strength in a hotel room rather than using a practice mute?

With my friends and section mates, I have had limited success trying to get amateurs to understand how to start on building embouchure strength. Either people get it or they don't, and only one of my teachers even touched on the subject through all my years of playing.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:36 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jan 05, 2018, 05:11AMAs a student, here is a problem I foresee with the Whisper G approach.

Unless I misunderstand the concept, it is a muscle-building exercise. ...Geezer

I don't think we know what it is thought to be nor what it actually is.

My thought is that it is a method for getting the feel of a very small aperture on an easy range note, so it is more of a technique exercise than a strength exercise. It also seems to be sensitive to the exact chop setting for that note (maybe more so than most long tone exercises, which this is).

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:11 am

I think it is both strength, aperture and airstream exercise. Cat claimed to do it every evening for 20 min without releasing the embouchure setting. When you try to do it that long, you understand why it is good also for endurance.

ttf_ssking2b · Post by **ttf_ssking2b** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:59 am

Quote from: bonenick on Jan 05, 2018, 07:11AMI think it is both strength, aperture and airstream exercise. Cat claimed to do it every evening for 20 min without releasing the embouchure setting. When you try to do it that long, you understand why it is good also for endurance.

I also think unless you are a superbly grounded player you spend an inordinate amount of time reinforcing bad habits by doing this kind of exercise unsupervised by a teacher like Doug, or someone else who knows and can walk the walk. If you want to learn to play high notes, take some lessons from someone who can actually play them.

Don't waste your time on this kind of BS without getting your embroschure analyzed by someone who knows what they are doing.

I know if Cat Anderson did it, it must be good...so good luck all with your trumpet playing!

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:14 am

Quote from: ssking2b on Jan 05, 2018, 07:59AMI also think unless you are a superbly grounded player you spend an inordinate amount of time reinforcing bad habits by doing this kind of exercise unsupervised by a teacher like Doug, or someone else who knows and can walk the walk.
Good point. I have yet to find an exercise I can't do wrong.

Sometimes the difference is subtle enough I couldn't have known if I hadn't seen somebody do it right. I've been a couple feet away from Doug as well as Brad Edwards when they played something very different from the way I had thought it went.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:23 am

I do

I didn't start this before starting lessons with Larry Meregillano. My present goal is to be able to play consistently up to high G (on trumpet) with minimal pressure and effort more than blasting screaming double Cs.

Before starting lessons with Larry my upper range efforts brought me an inguinal hernia. So far I managed to minimize quite a lot the pressure and efforts for up to high C/D. I think that I am going in a good direction. What I learn from my trumpet lessons I try to movement also in my tbone embouchure, I think that generally it works, though the bigger mp presents some additional challenges.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:49 am

I think there is many ways to high registers. But I mostly believe in doing basic. And make sure all the basic aspects works. It depends if we practice the right way at home. Yes, try every possible way, but without the basic ground its hard to get anywhere. (says the man with a suspect high register

)

Leif

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:53 am

This Allen Vizzutti video turned up in my YouTube feed, there's some interesting close ups, comments and points to ponder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-GplXnKoKU

In addition here's a m/p buzzing exercise, played to pitch with a keyboard, I've been trying this recently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRpIb9WyEOE

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:11 pm

Quote from: Pre59 on Jan 05, 2018, 10:53AMThis Allen Vizzutti video turned up in my YouTube feed, there's some interesting close ups, comments and points to ponder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-GplXnKoKU

Blocked in the USA.

...Geezer

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:08 pm

Allen is awesome, but I noticed that lately (at least on the video I saw) he pivots a lot less than back then.

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:48 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jan 05, 2018, 12:11PMBlocked in the USA.

...Geezer

Here's the title, "Allen Vizzutti (Woody Herman B.B.) - Firedance - Jazz Jamboree '77, Warsaw" you may be able to find a different way to it.

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:48 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jan 05, 2018, 12:11PMBlocked in the USA.

...Geezer

Here's the title, "Allen Vizzutti (Woody Herman B.B.) - Firedance - Jazz Jamboree '77, Warsaw" you may be able to find a different way to it.