TromboneChat

I'd love to see some pictures of the car!

I've seen this thing in action and can confirm it works great. Note that the bottom is an IV stand (medical equipment) and is light but sturdy.

From the angle in the third picture it still righted itself (although if the slide was on the tipped side it might not). Important part is that the center of mass is still inside of the shape defined by the legs.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:17 am

Posaunus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:47 pm

I had one of those. (I'm a certified "old guy.") If I recall, it was nowhere near as good, sturdy, or stable, as modern trombone stands. (I have no idea where it is now!)

Yep, I had one. No idea where it came from, and all these years later no idea where it went, but all the old timey guys had them, and they were never all that good. But you weren't a real gigging trombone player without it.

Discovered this group looking for fit information on the k&m 14990 stand. First new stand I’ve purchased in 50+ years, replacing the “old guy” stand I’ve been using all this time. It holds the horn up, but isn’t steady, and 20 or so years ago I had a bad accident with it — knocked my horn over coming out from a side curtain. Bad stuff.
I’ve not done this before now because I worried about the support of the new stand sticking up into the throat of the bell- is there any concern of distortion of the throat by that part by the weight of the horn? I’ve set the heights that the uppermost part almost stops bell movement when resting on the cup and the slide is off the ground.

The Old Guy Stand is almost brilliant. The sprung ball with felt allows the bell to dry a bit. The four felts below don't soak the inner bell surface. It folds up nicely small.

However, the spring ball probably isn't even needed as the rest may do the job. And it only has three legs. To me that's the big issue: the more legs the better. (My stand has five and I do not ever worry about tipping over.) The maker could have dramatically improved the stand by adding a fourth leg, and easily. That's why it's almost brilliant.

I think the reason for 3 legs is that the three points define a plane and if there were four points (or five, for that matter) you overdefine the plane and unless all are perfectly set up the result is a wobble.

My issue with the Old Guy stand (and I had one for a while also) is the flimsy construction. This was also my complaint about the K&M In Bell stand. If the post were nicely rigid, the tendency to unbalance and tip over is dramatically reduced. This can be enhanced by making sure the slide is positioned near one of the extending legs. If the slide is positioned midway between the legs it makes for the most unstable condition.

Everything is a trade off. I use only 14990 k&m stands for everything after a standard Hamilton stand failed under a Duo-Gravis, causing damage to the trombone. One K&M stand is restricted to the house because it is no longer adjustable with my hands.

I make sure all three legs are fully supported if the stand is placed on a hearth or low coffee table to avoid animals. A leg hanging off can allow the stand to walk off the raised surface and fall. K&M 14990 legs are long. Fully supported, stability is enhanced. Carelessness is fully rewarded.

The K&M 14990 is stable without positioning the slide over a leg support. If the slide lock is not fully engaged or the stand height has been improperly set, there will be no dent in the slide crook.

I always have a worn out, black, 50% wool, 50% cotton sock to hang over the bell support. The typical sock holes allow for adjustment of the friction knobs. No marks are left on the bell and the wool absorbs condensation well. I don’t really care to advertise for Crown Royal but if that is a specification requirement for you, various sizes are usually available for purchase on eBay with low risk and without the alcohol. I also realize that will leave most trombonechat users without a friend.

I've added a hose clamp to my two "stay-at-home" Hamilton stands to make sure they don't telescope down. For the road, I mostly use K&M. For church, I donated 4 Hercules DS520B stands so we wouldn't have to carry stands in/out and so we would look the same - then 2 more trombone players showed up...lol. Imagine that... 6 trombones in a church orchestra.

The ideal stand for home use would be hollow and have a fan that blew air up through the tubing when you put it back on the stand. Keep the inside dry and it will last much longer.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 8:35 am The ideal stand for home use would be hollow and have a fan that blew air up through the tubing when you put it back on the stand. Keep the inside dry and it will last much longer.

oooh.... a warm air turbine so the horn didn't cool down and condense and change pitch while we count all our allotted rests during the places the strings and woodwinds carry the tune...

What do folks suggest for a good bass 'bone stand? I have a Hamilton and a portable K&M, but neither is something I'd trust with my TR-185.

jorymil wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 11:06 am What do folks suggest for a good bass 'bone stand? I have a Hamilton and a portable K&M, but neither is something I'd trust with my TR-185.

I don't think I'd trust the portable K and M with anything but a small tenor, and even then I would prefer the 14985 (the one with tube legs) over it. You might get the 14985 to work with a bass if you're careful, but...

My choices are the K and M 14990 or, should you be able to find one, the 14991, aka the UMI stand. These are some of the most stable and strongest stands readily available. The UMI stand has longer legs that have a bend just before the feet giving extra height, which is ideal for the larger throat of a typical bass trombone (mine stays with the Besson I own).

Others may recommend the Woodwind Design carbon fiber stand, which is fairly pricy and seats the horn using the trombone's center of gravity for balance. YMMV.

I’ve used the K&M 14990 for the past 20 years with various bass trombones, and have never worried about them. As with any trombone stand, just make sure you adjust it well, with the shaft of the stand up into the bell throat, and low enough so the tip of the slide is 1/2” (1cm) from the floor.

Alternatively, Sheridan Brass, maker of the Get-A-Grip, used to have a seriously heavy duty bass trombone stand listed on their site, and you might contact them to see if they have one to sell. It was designed similarly to the HornGuys contrabass trombone stand, which you might also be able to modify to work...

https://www.hornguys.com/products/the-h ... bone-stand

K&M 14990, all the way!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255546660312?h ... ition=3000

This makes the most compact stand of all time, but it's only three legs. I found mine at a thrift store and use at home only.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234089667912?h ... Sw72xg72iK

Has four legs! Looks good but I have no experience with this type.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/153747319314?h ... SwqIld5UId

Five legs! Cheap, too. If I had a contra I'd put it on this. (My own stand below is cut to fit in my bag and is a bit short for a contra.)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/123165666553?h ... SwOb9d5lQA

Four legs, prolly a bit heavy. There are better ones to use.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/185319034696?h ... Sw5t9iHSLS

Five legs, the kind I use. There are several models, some with steel legs, some aluminum. Can be made tall enough for a contra, but to fit in my bag it's then too short. There is no better stand base I have found.

wjtaggart wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 8:53 am ...
I’ve not done this before now because I worried about the support of the new stand sticking up into the throat of the bell- is there any concern of distortion of the throat by that part by the weight of the horn? I’ve set the heights that the uppermost part almost stops bell movement when resting on the cup and the slide is off the ground.

You definitely don't want the top knob wedged into the bell throat of the horn. You want to adjust the dome so that that top knob does not get stuck in the bell throat. You should be able to wriggle the bell throat and confirm this. I think that is what you have done, yes?...

Yes
Thanks

I'm not sure if the UMI stand can be ordered on its own anymore. It CAN be pieced together by using the K&M sitting tuba tripod with the upper part of a trombone stand. If you do this by ordering two entire stands, then you will have useless leftovers unless you know a tuba player who wants a short-legged sitting stand. Honestly, this sounds nice if you play tuba and appreciate more leg room.

Perhaps a better/cheaper answer—at least in Europe—is to contact K&M for the tuba sitting tripod component and then the top half of a bass or tenor stand (or just order the trombone wall mount and unbolt the shaft). They should be able to prepare a custom quote, but it might actually cost more than buying the two ready-made stands. (Tuba: 70 to 80 euros. Trombone wall mount: 25)

I find the long-legged tripod (UMI-style) is nice and stable and portable, but one advantage to the shorter 149/9 is that the trombone cone stays at the same height no matter how far out the legs are pulled. That sounds like a strange tradeoff, but I don't lock the legs ever and can set up and break down the stand like a Formula One tire gunner: just grab and push/pull, adjust later as needed without having to pick up the trombone first, as the slide is always the same distance from the floor!

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While searching for the right stand for my trombone, I started dabbling in building one. Sure, cymbal stands are great, but what about high-end microphone stands? What if Latch Lake made a trombone stand? (I'm sure, for a very steep fee, they would take on the challenge.)

I'm nearly finished building the MOATS—although it's also mother-of-all-expensive. I want to build a stand that is extremely bottom heavy, foldable, compact, without high leg support braces, and still visually attractive; basically, a thrice-heavy 14985 with steel parts instead of fiberglass.

Note: I'll need to revise this post later with photos and exact specs (cost, weight, force required to tip). Someone remind me if it's after 2024 and I haven't done this.

The current incarnation uses the three-leg base of a Latch Lake MicKing 1100 (this clamps onto a 1" or 25.4mm diameter tube) attached to a manually cut boom from an old Superlux MS 200 (with a 25.5 mm diameter exterior, coupled to around 20 mm diameter in the extension. I haven't measured this smaller tube yet; it's definitely more than 16 mm.) I'm looking to replace the MS 200 end clamp so a 16 mm tube will slide and clamp securely inside the larger pipe.

My alternative is modifying the bell cone so it fits onto a larger diameter. (K&M and Kolberg parts have a 16mm diameter.)

I have a metal lathe and taps, so I can make a hollow steel rod that's 25.4 mm, threaded to accept a 16mm rod, and then locked together with a long set screw. This is a ton of work and cost for me, plus I'd still need to blue or otherwise darken the steel; I don't have chemicals for that. I'd prefer a telescoping tube over a one-piece stand, but I don't know how to make a reliable twist clutch or tube lock so finding a pre-made one is ideal. 25.4 mm is a weird tube diameter (esp. in Europe) for most music stand makers, and most "fractional inch" pipes (according to various ISO standards) have outer diameters of 33.7 or 26.9 or 22.9 or 26.2 mm. Hydraulic pipes come in whole metric sizes: 25 and 28 mm are common, but 26 and 27 also exist. The difficulty is finding a shop that will sell one pipe to a private customer! It's also possible to get solid bars and/or unfinished steel. These have their own drawbacks. What I haven't been able to find at all, anywhere, as a telescope pair: 26 to 16 mm, or 25.4 mm to 16.0 mm, or even 1" to 5/8". A four-part telescoping pipe will go from 1" to 5/8". On a short stand, this would look strange and add more parts with potential failure or slipping points. Via McMaster-Carr, it's 110 bucks just for materials, and that would be for unplated metal parts. After shipping costs, it's a no-go for me. I'd rather find two pipes that fit the exact diameters I have. Most stand distributors/manufacturers don't list each tube measurement, and I don't know how much success I'd have calling Hercules, K&M, Gator, On-Stage, or Ultimate (or even a local metalworker) and asking for an exact telescoping tube pair. Honestly, it was luck that the Superlux was leaning in the corner while I had my calipers out. So, I'll do what I can to get the Superlux to work (e.g. turning the part of the tube that gets inserted in the bell and/or boring out the cone) unless someone happens to know a tubing lock/clamp that'll go from 25.5–26.0 down to 16–15.9 mm. The Latch Lake Spin Grip does have one very short adapter that is 25.4mm diameter with 16mm internal threads (actually, 5/8-27, they are microphone threads) but AFAIK this doesn't come with the MicKing 1100, so it's an extra cost if I go that route. (I already have that part, so it doesn't cost me squat. I'd like if this design could be copied though.) Worst case scenario: I can order a meter-long, 16mm diameter, blackened, steel, pneumatic tube, cut it to length, and use a die/lathe so it fits on the Spin Grip adapter. Clamp that into the tripod and accept that it can't be unclamped and shortened. I would also like to try out brazing one day and can source everything I think I'd need for a custom telescope clamp: 40mm-tall, 28mm-wide, metal discs and delrin spacers, plus a manual mill. I'm still undecided on making my own. UPDATE ON CONES: I ordered the new (plastic) bass trombone cone from the recently revised 149/1. The top is a very tight 16mm but can be cut to a new diameter. The inside and bottom of the cone itself doesn't have a 16mm sleeve with M6 locking screw, so I can decide how to attach it to a tube, but I can also decide whether that tube will be 16mm or wider. I also ordered a felt Kolberg cone. It fits a 16mm tube and is too expensive to modify.

Cost looks like 360 U.S. dollars or 500 if I go with the Kolberg cone.

You might be able to get the folks at Latch Lake to sell just the tripod. The cheapest MicKing 1100 (the straight stand) is more than 250 bucks. I had one already, so it got torn down for this project. The Superlux should be about 50 which is cheaper than buying and working hydraulic tubes. The K&M bell insert is less than 30 bucks shipped within Germany but you might need to cobble together a clamp for it. Altogether you're looking at between 3 and 10 percent of the cost of the instrument it might hold.

… and stability? I'd be more worried of someone breaking their toe on the stand leg or hitting the slide against the tubing than my trombone getting knocked over. I'll have an official maximum tilt angle measurement once a bell support is fitted.


With what I've discovered building this: only copy this design if you want the heaviest travel stand imaginable plus you have time to spare and money to waste.

For a stable, good looking stand where you don't care about cost, just buy a Kolberg—foldable or fixed, both are nice. If it's not heavy enough for your taste, figure out how to screw in a Manhasset 2.5lb weight (Model 2700) underneath.

If you care about cost, any of the three current K&M models are excellent.

I saw photos years ago of someone replacing the legs of a K&M stand with fibreglass. Looked very promising.