TromboneChat

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:47 pm Ha - I have an Android. And a cheap one at that. My $200 Moto G6 works just fine. But to put music on these sites, at some point it helps to use an actual computer rather than just a phone.

LOL! Yeah, I was just messing around. But iPhone users do hate being on a mass text chain with one or more android user.

I specifically switched from Samsung to Apple because I was getting mass text messages really delayed. I would be on a gig and everyone in the band would get a text with the time we needed to be back and I would receive it the next day. Now if the bandleader emailed me? I would've gotten it immediately

This is pretty dumb. "I don't check my email" is a horrible excuse. Any professional anywhere is expected to have email access, 24/7, by clicking a single icon on their smart phone screen. It's not like they have to go into the library to find a computer a and get linked in to the "world wide weberverse". Not checking your email, when you have notifications and access on a device that college students are guaranteed to have in their band 99% of the time is proof that you're not even aware of what professionalism is, as the student in question.

On the same line of thought, not using Google drive or the cloud to share important documents is a pretty clear indication that you are not with the times. This world we live in relies on smart phones. The cloud is King, but email is not dead.

"Ok boomer" lol

Posaunus wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:53 pm

JLivi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:34 pm
This is why you don’t hire people that have androids

Wow - that's pretty harsh. I'm surprised you didn't say "OK Boomer!"

It was implied.

sungfw wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:23 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:24 pm
That's nonsense. 99% of music contractors use email. If you think that's something that "isn't done" anymore, you will never be a working musician. I don't care what your college professor buddies told you. College is not the real world.

Maybe they do in YOUR world; in MY world, where > 75% of the musicians that my church (membership: 563, average attendance: ~750) regularly hires are undergrads at Duke, UNC, Campbell Univ, NC Central, or NC State (for the record, we pay 125% of scale, regardless of AFM membership status), the overwhelming majority of whom don't use email unless prompted by a "Check your email" text; and even then, more often than not, they'll reply by text rather than by email. From conversations with music directors of other Triangle area churches, they're seeing the same thing, and not just from undergrad and grad students.

Oh ... the Grad and Career (recent college grads to ~36 cohort) minister says he's switched to using group texts instead of email to communicate with his "flock," because 90% of them say they don't check their email with any regularity. That's "real world" behavior as self-reported by 300-some young professionals in fields ranging from applied medicine to law to engineering to biomedical research to IT to international finance to multimedia production to education to marketing to retail sales to skilled trades to you name it.

In the "real world," behavior evolves over time, and "real world" norms and practices need to evolve along with them. If you think trends in the wider world don't and/or won't affect how working musicians are hired going forward, you're not living in the real world.

JLivi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:34 pm
And for the record, with the use of iCloud, Dropbox or google drive, you can get 1000’s of PDFs to someone’s phone by texting them a link.

Yup. Work smarter, not harder. Adapt or die.

Eat a Tide pod, millenial.

Seriously though, you wouldn't last a week in the professional music scene ignoring emails. Don't really care what your church does. That's not the real world either. I recently did a church gig where they sent the original parts by snail mail. Sure recipe for losing your irreplaceable original parts. Nothing against churches - I just wouldn't consider what they do to be standard practice for the music field.

And by the way, I have played at probably at least 100 churches in my life, and not a SINGLE ONE EVER hired me by text message.

sungfw wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:23 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:24 pm
That's nonsense. 99% of music contractors use email. If you think that's something that "isn't done" anymore, you will never be a working musician. I don't care what your college professor buddies told you. College is not the real world.

Maybe they do in YOUR world; in MY world, where > 75% of the musicians that my church (membership: 563, average attendance: ~750) regularly hires are undergrads at Duke, UNC, Campbell Univ, NC Central, or NC State (for the record, we pay 125% of scale, regardless of AFM membership status), the overwhelming majority of whom don't use email unless prompted by a "Check your email" text; and even then, more often than not, they'll reply by text rather than by email. From conversations with music directors of other Triangle area churches, they're seeing the same thing, and not just from undergrad and grad students.

Oh ... the Grad and Career (recent college grads to ~36 cohort) minister says he's switched to using group texts instead of email to communicate with his "flock," because 90% of them say they don't check their email with any regularity. That's "real world" behavior as self-reported by 300-some young professionals in fields ranging from applied medicine to law to engineering to biomedical research to IT to international finance to multimedia production to education to marketing to retail sales to skilled trades to you name it.

In the "real world," behavior evolves over time, and "real world" norms and practices need to evolve along with them. If you think trends in the wider world don't and/or won't affect how working musicians are hired going forward, you're not living in the real world.

JLivi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:34 pm
And for the record, with the use of iCloud, Dropbox or google drive, you can get 1000’s of PDFs to someone’s phone by texting them a link.

Yup. Work smarter, not harder. Adapt or die.

Sungfw. Thank you!

FWIW, I just got an $800 gig by checking my email on a regular basis. If I had ignored it for long, I'm sure they could have found someone else pretty quick.

Wow Brad didn't know how rigid a person you are. I hire all of my subs for my show in New York City, a fairly happening music scene. via text. I've contracted for years, since about 1994, and most of my offers go out via email. However I'm not hiring many 18 -22 year olds for work as they're generally not experienced enough to do the level of work I hire for. I also hire musicians for a variety of gigs via text if it's a small amount of people and the number of services are limited. Ever hear of Group Texting. It's a new thing. On the rare occasion I don't hear back via email I'll shoot someone a text and say "check your email." They do and I'm cool. But to sit here and pontificate on how unprofessional etc, etc, is a little much. Move the heck on. Adapt with the times. Don't use that person ever again-whatever makes you feel like you're the one that's right. There are far worse issues in the world.

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:33 am

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:22 am Don't get me started


I wouldn't book him again, and would not be in any way worried about letting it be known that he is an unreliable, unprofessional and not to book him

The guy made a mistake. No reason to ban him for life for one mistake.

Number one rule in life; Don’t mess with someone’s money flow. If I can’t rely on you, I won’t use you. If someone asks me about somebody, all can do is tell about the experience I had. If he can’t work because he has screwed over too many people, that’s on him.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:09 pm A while back, a friend, livid when a young alto player failed to show up, slagged the young man in an email - “unprofessional” “sell your horn”, “ never work in this town again” - and copied everyone in the band. Of course.

A few days later, the young man replied, apologized, and explained that his dad had suddenly passed away, requiring him to drop everything and fly to Edmonton.

The day my Dad died, I was rehearsal because I couldn’t find a sub. I made sure I had all my obligations covered. I had an opera show starting that week. The world is a hard place. The sad truth is that people feel for you, but you still have to deliver.

I would be willing to give someone some understanding in that situation. We can't realistically expect everyone to react with the same logic in tragic circumstances.

Still, if it had've been me, I would have (actually did have) taken care of business before I left. And, frankly, I would expect the same from others. Not being judgmental but that's just my sense of obligation.

BTW, I really appreciate some of the comments here about modern communications methods. I thought I was up-to-date, but now I see that it's gone beyond what I know.

GBP wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:36 am

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:33 am

The guy made a mistake. No reason to ban him for life for one mistake.

Number one rule in life; Don’t mess with someone’s money flow. If I can’t rely on you, I won’t use you. If someone asks me about somebody, all can do is tell about the experience I had. If he can’t work because he has screwed over too many people, that’s on him.

According to the posts that far there was no indication of a past history of unreliability, so why talk poorly about the guy to others which could prevent him from working? He's a college kid, so there's time for redemption.

As for covering for yourself during a tragic time, everyone responds differently. What about having a little compassion? We've all screwed up, why not give a person the benefit of the doubt? Sure, if there's a pattern that's one thing, but one mistake shouldn't ban a person from the profession.

And the number one rule in life is treat others the way you wish to be treated. That does encompass not messing with another's livelihood, but includes much more.

Jeez, tough crowd.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:47 am Wow Brad didn't know how rigid a person you are. I hire all of my subs for my show in New York City, a fairly happening music scene. via text. I've contracted for years, since about 1994, and most of my offers go out via email. However I'm not hiring many 18 -22 year olds for work as they're generally not experienced enough to do the level of work I hire for. I also hire musicians for a variety of gigs via text if it's a small amount of people and the number of services are limited. Ever hear of Group Texting. It's a new thing. On the rare occasion I don't hear back via email I'll shoot someone a text and say "check your email." They do and I'm cool. But to sit here and pontificate on how unprofessional etc, etc, is a little much. Move the heck on. Adapt with the times. Don't use that person ever again-whatever makes you feel like you're the one that's right. There are far worse issues in the world.

LOL, you have gotten this exactly backwards.

First of all, you can do a word search in this thread. You will find that I never once used the word "unprofessional", so you are obviously attributing some imaginary position to me.

So let's review:

YOU said to me:

deal with it and communicate a different way. We used to call, then we emailed, then we texted, then what's next?? Move on with the times or just stay pissed.

So YOU are telling us what media we should use to hire musicians. I never told anyone how they should contract. Who is being "rigid" here? YOU seem like the one who is pissed.

I simply stated a fact: 99% of contractors use email. I didn't say nobody uses text messages. If I were saying that, I would have said 100%. I did not say 100%. So your anecdotal examples of contractors using texts doesn't disprove what I'm saying. I have been hired by text before, and I have hired other people by text. It would be stupid of me to ignore a work offer because they didn't use my preferred form of communication. But the vast majority of work offers are by email, and if you ignore those, you aren't going to be a professional musician for long. What's so hard to understand about that?

You say you're a contractor, so you should understand this. You are working for someone - a production company, a symphony board, whatever... They have a budget, and they need X number of musicians for their event. Your job is to provide musicians who are capable of doing the job correctly. If a musician does not do the job correctly, that is YOUR responsibility as the contractor. Contractors are going to get the right people to do the job that needs to be done. They are not hired to coddle lazy self-entitled kids who "just need a chance to change". They call the person they think will do the job best, and if that person does not do the job well, or is late, or doesn't show up at all, the contractor moves on to someone else. Period. If you are that player who didn't do your job, and continue to fail to do your job, you aren't going to have much of a career. Sorry if you think that's "rigid", but it is the truth. I am not responsible for the way things work, but that IS how things work. I'm sure it's happened to everyone in this thread at least once in their life. You chalk it up to learning a valuable lesson in the school of hard knocks, and you go on with your life. One mistake won't destroy your career, but if you have a habit of being unreliable, forget it.

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:01 pm

GBP wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:36 am

Number one rule in life; Don’t mess with someone’s money flow. If I can’t rely on you, I won’t use you. If someone asks me about somebody, all can do is tell about the experience I had. If he can’t work because he has screwed over too many people, that’s on him.

According to the posts that far there was no indication of a past history of unreliability, so why talk poorly about the guy to others which could prevent him from working? He's a college kid, so there's time for redemption.

So if I hire Joe to play trumpet, and he doesn't show up for the gig, and you call me and say, "Hey Brad, how did Joe work out on that gig?", I'm supposed to lie and say he was fine?

brassmedic wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:37 pm

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:01 pm

According to the posts that far there was no indication of a past history of unreliability, so why talk poorly about the guy to others which could prevent him from working? He's a college kid, so there's time for redemption.

So if I hire Joe to play trumpet, and he doesn't show up for the gig, and you call me and say, "Hey Brad, how did Joe work out on that gig?", I'm supposed to lie and say he was fine?

You accused someone of putting words in your mouth, and now you are doing the same to me.

I never said a person should lie and a search of the thread would prove that. I was specifically replying to someone that stated :"I wouldn't book him again, and would not be in any way worried about letting it be known that he is an unreliable, unprofessional and not to book him" and "Number one rule in life; Don’t mess with someone’s money flow. If I can’t rely on you, I won’t use you. If someone asks me about somebody, all can do is tell about the experience I had. If he can’t work because he has screwed over too many people, that’s on him."

I simply pointed out everyone can make mistakes and we should feel compassion for others. I certainly have made my share of mistakes and I'm fortunate that I found people forgiving of my actions. That's part of the reason I am forgiving of others and try to pass on what's been given to me. But no, I'm not going to lie to cover for a person.

The old guys are getting cranky.

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:40 pm
You accused someone of putting words in your mouth, and now you are doing the same to me.

No, I'm not.

I never said a person should lie and a search of the thread would prove that.

What are you talking about? I never claimed you wrote that. Didn't you see the question mark at the end of my sentence? That means I was ASKING you essentially "Is this the jist of what you are saying?"

I was specifically replying to someone that stated :"I wouldn't book him again, and would not be in any way worried about letting it be known that he is an unreliable, unprofessional and not to book him" and "Number one rule in life; Don’t mess with someone’s money flow. If I can’t rely on you, I won’t use you. If someone asks me about somebody, all can do is tell about the experience I had. If he can’t work because he has screwed over too many people, that’s on him."

I bolded the relevant part there. He said "All I can do is tell about the experience I had". If a player was unreliable and unprofessional, and GBP is asked about that player, all he can do is tell the truth. You disagreed with GBP. If you disagree with telling the truth, then you are advocating telling a lie, or at least omitting the truth. It's not a quote of you; it is the inescapable logical conclusion of what you appeared to be advocating. You said not to talk poorly about someone, but if he performed poorly and I am asked how he performed, how can I tell the truth without saying that?

I simply pointed out everyone can make mistakes and we should feel compassion for others. I certainly have made my share of mistakes and I'm fortunate that I found people forgiving of my actions. That's part of the reason I am forgiving of others and try to pass on what's been given to me. But no, I'm not going to lie to cover for a person.

Good, then we agree on that.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:29 pm The old guys are getting cranky.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:39 pm

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:40 pm
You accused someone of putting words in your mouth, and now you are doing the same to me.

No, I'm not.

I never said a person should lie and a search of the thread would prove that.

What are you talking about? I never claimed you wrote that. Didn't you see the question mark at the end of my sentence? That means I was ASKING you essentially "Is this the jist of what you are saying?"

I was specifically replying to someone that stated :"I wouldn't book him again, and would not be in any way worried about letting it be known that he is an unreliable, unprofessional and not to book him" and "Number one rule in life; Don’t mess with someone’s money flow. If I can’t rely on you, I won’t use you. If someone asks me about somebody, all can do is tell about the experience I had. If he can’t work because he has screwed over too many people, that’s on him."

I bolded the relevant part there. He said "All I can do is tell about the experience I had". If a player was unreliable and unprofessional, and GBP is asked about that player, all he can do is tell the truth. You disagreed with GBP. If you disagree with telling the truth, then you are advocating telling a lie, or at least omitting the truth. It's not a quote of you; it is the inescapable logical conclusion of what you appeared to be advocating. You said not to talk poorly about someone, but if he performed poorly and I am asked how he performed, how can I tell the truth without saying that?

I simply pointed out everyone can make mistakes and we should feel compassion for others. I certainly have made my share of mistakes and I'm fortunate that I found people forgiving of my actions. That's part of the reason I am forgiving of others and try to pass on what's been given to me. But no, I'm not going to lie to cover for a person.

Good, then we agree on that.

What you wrote could certainly be interpreted in the way I did. That's the problem with responding to one another in this format.

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:58 pm What you wrote could certainly be interpreted in the way I did. That's the problem with responding to one another in this format.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative, but that's a REALLY common rhetorical device, and I just don't understand why you took offense. Examples:

"You shouldn't waste water washing your car."
"So am I just supposed to let it get dirty?"

"Meat is bad for you. Carbs are bad for you. Sugar is bad for you."
"So, what? Am I supposed to just eat broccoli and nothing else?"

Neither of those are an attempt to attribute anything to the person saying the first sentence. This happens all the time in conversations. I thought it would be quite obvious I wasn't literally claiming you advocated lying. It was a rhetorical question. Sorry if that offended you.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:26 pm

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:58 pm What you wrote could certainly be interpreted in the way I did. That's the problem with responding to one another in this format.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative, but that's a REALLY common rhetorical device, and I just don't understand why you took offense. Examples:

"You shouldn't waste water washing your car."
"So am I just supposed to let it get dirty?"

"Meat is bad for you. Carbs are bad for you. Sugar is bad for you."
"So, what? Am I supposed to just eat broccoli and nothing else?"

Neither of those are an attempt to attribute anything to the person saying the first sentence. This happens all the time in conversations. I thought it would be quite obvious I wasn't literally claiming you advocated lying. It was a rhetorical question. Sorry if that offended you.

No reason to apologize as I was not offended, but I appreciate the sentiment. Again, that's the problem with this format; things can be misinterpreted. Thanks for the clarification.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:29 pm The old guys are getting cranky.

You kids get off my lawn! My power just went out so I have time to be cranky.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:19 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:47 am Wow Brad didn't know how rigid a person you are. I hire all of my subs for my show in New York City, a fairly happening music scene. via text. I've contracted for years, since about 1994, and most of my offers go out via email. However I'm not hiring many 18 -22 year olds for work as they're generally not experienced enough to do the level of work I hire for. I also hire musicians for a variety of gigs via text if it's a small amount of people and the number of services are limited. Ever hear of Group Texting. It's a new thing. On the rare occasion I don't hear back via email I'll shoot someone a text and say "check your email." They do and I'm cool. But to sit here and pontificate on how unprofessional etc, etc, is a little much. Move the heck on. Adapt with the times. Don't use that person ever again-whatever makes you feel like you're the one that's right. There are far worse issues in the world.

LOL, you have gotten this exactly backwards.

First of all, you can do a word search in this thread. You will find that I never once used the word "unprofessional", so you are obviously attributing some imaginary position to me.

So let's review:

YOU said to me:

deal with it and communicate a different way. We used to call, then we emailed, then we texted, then what's next?? Move on with the times or just stay pissed.

So YOU are telling us what media we should use to hire musicians. I never told anyone how they should contract. Who is being "rigid" here? YOU seem like the one who is pissed.

I simply stated a fact: 99% of contractors use email. I didn't say nobody uses text messages. If I were saying that, I would have said 100%. I did not say 100%. So your anecdotal examples of contractors using texts doesn't disprove what I'm saying. I have been hired by text before, and I have hired other people by text. It would be stupid of me to ignore a work offer because they didn't use my preferred form of communication. But the vast majority of work offers are by email, and if you ignore those, you aren't going to be a professional musician for long. What's so hard to understand about that?

You say you're a contractor, so you should understand this. You are working for someone - a production company, a symphony board, whatever... They have a budget, and they need X number of musicians for their event. Your job is to provide musicians who are capable of doing the job correctly. If a musician does not do the job correctly, that is YOUR responsibility as the contractor. Contractors are going to get the right people to do the job that needs to be done. They are not hired to coddle lazy self-entitled kids who "just need a chance to change". They call the person they think will do the job best, and if that person does not do the job well, or is late, or doesn't show up at all, the contractor moves on to someone else. Period. If you are that player who didn't do your job, and continue to fail to do your job, you aren't going to have much of a career. Sorry if you think that's "rigid", but it is the truth. I am not responsible for the way things work, but that IS how things work. I'm sure it's happened to everyone in this thread at least once in their life. You chalk it up to learning a valuable lesson in the school of hard knocks, and you go on with your life. One mistake won't destroy your career, but if you have a habit of being unreliable, forget it.

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:42 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:29 pm The old guys are getting cranky.

You kids get off my lawn! My power just went out so I have time to be cranky.

Power outages are great times to practice. Very few distractions. And you don't have to fight with the Gee-Tars.

.

Schlitz wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:15 pm
That’s an absolutely horrible thing to say about Lois. She got you a gig, a pristine original copy, not a photocopy of a photocopy. And you got PAID. If you got paid, that IS the standard practice for the music field. Please consider a career change, as a speech teacher at a community college.

Uh, you Ok, buddy? Maybe you ought to cut down on the Schlitz, Schlitz.

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:01 pm

GBP wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:36 am

Number one rule in life; Don’t mess with someone’s money flow. If I can’t rely on you, I won’t use you. If someone asks me about somebody, all can do is tell about the experience I had. If he can’t work because he has screwed over too many people, that’s on him.

According to the posts that far there was no indication of a past history of unreliability, so why talk poorly about the guy to others which could prevent him from working? He's a college kid, so there's time for redemption.

As for covering for yourself during a tragic time, everyone responds differently. What about having a little compassion? We've all screwed up, why not give a person the benefit of the doubt? Sure, if there's a pattern that's one thing, but one mistake shouldn't ban a person from the profession.

And the number one rule in life is treat others the way you wish to be treated. That does encompass not messing with another's livelihood, but includes much more.

You seem to be asking questions that I have already answered, so I refer you to my original post. The world is less forgiving than college. The day after I returned from my father’s funeral, grades were due. The district expected me to have them done. It is rare in the professional realm to be forgiven for not making sure your obligations are taken care of.

.

*** Moderator hat ON ***

Can you guys stop the sniping? I don't think any of it is helping the situation. If this continues I'm going to have to lock the thread.

*** Moderator hat OFF ***

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:20 am *** Moderator hat ON ***

Can you guys stop the sniping? I don't think any of it is helping the situation. If this continues I'm going to have to lock the thread.

*** Moderator hat OFF ***

What do you mean, "you guys"? Schlitz is clearly off his rocker and posting utter nonsense. He's making up names. Who the hell is Lois?? Twins? What does that even mean. Stop with the "you guys" crap. It's one guy. Take care of it, Bruce. My god!

I'd just like to rewind a bit and address an issue with this whole conversation that has been bugging at me even if I do agree with many things that were said. Namely, the suggestion that this is a generational problem. First, let's clear something up, millennials are not in college, we're 25-40 year-olds who make up a sizeable portion of the current work-force. Second, we're also, along with Gen Z (those actually in college), two generations that have and will have it far worse than the previous generations in terms of revenue, level of life and advancement opportunity. In the music world specifically, we're generations being sold a dream, get trained by teachers who fondly remember their youth and the first times they got called up by a major symphony at age 20 and talk like they expect the same will happen with us, forgetting that of course they are the ones still in those jobs and they're not retiring anytime soon, and even when they do call some of us (and they really don't all do that), there will never be enough work to give out. How many orchestral trombone students graduate each year in North America? Hundreds? How many orchestra positions open up each year? Yeah... Of course that means it's even more important for us to avoid screw ups, the margin of error is even smaller, and organization/communication skills are even more important. A lot of us get that. In fact enough of us get that that we still face more competition than any generation before, so maybe ease up a bit on the generational moral high ground.

Yes, the guy not reading his email should learn his lesson, otherwise he's not gonna make it, that is true. But the no-show was not invented by millennials or Gen Z. I'm sure there are plenty of boomers and Xs out there who could have had a career in music and didn't because they weren't reliable. Hell, I know quite a few who aren't reliable and still had/have a career that no person my age with the same reliability issues could ever dream of having.

Now the argument that the younger generation dislikes emails and prefers other media and so we should change the way we contact musicians is also kind of silly. First, about 95% of my gigs I get asked by e-mail. And almost all of the asks I get by phone/text message are, ironically, from one colleague who is Gen X and doesn't like smartphones and emails and our overdependance on technology! E-mail isn't going anywhere anytime soon. But because I get most of my work through e-mail doesn't mean I forgot how to answer the phone. New technology or changes in what medium is preferred only means you need to add to your arsenal, not forget about every other means of communication. If I miss out on a gig because I was slow calling back, I can't complain that they should have used emails, it's entirely on me...

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:39 am I hired a horn player to fill in with my brass quintet for a couple of upcoming recitals. . .Now this is not a high-paying affair, but he said he wanted to do it. I sent him 2 emails with rehearsal dates and times.

. . .

Then he sends me an email this morning saying he "forgot about rehearsal and hadn't checked his email."

The issue here isn't email versus text, it's that the musician already agreed to to play then forgot (my bold emphasis above).

Consider a professional obligation outside the music business for a moment. What happens to an employee who forgot to show for a scheduled shift? It depends on the business and the manager, but typically there will be consequences, particularly if it happens more than once.

Dave

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:20 am *** Moderator hat ON ***

Can you guys stop the sniping? I don't think any of it is helping the situation. If this continues I'm going to have to lock the thread.

*** Moderator hat OFF ***

FWIW, I'll stick up for Brad. Schlitz is a troll. He posts things just to make people angry. He claims to be somehow related to the business, with professor friends and professional musician friends, but doesn't post under his own name. I have no idea who he is. Here he is, on this very topic, insulting me and my profession:

Schlitz wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:29 pm This one will probably end up joining an Army band. They'll get him a regularly scheduled haircut, outfit, etc. Just another size 10 in the crowd.....

This is a reference to me saying that a 5G is like a size 10 shoe - it fits many people - and a reference to the profession he knows I have. He's basically saying "this kid is an idiot, just like Harrison is". I hadn't even posted anything here when he wrote that. He's a troll. Last time I called him out on this he deleted about twenty of his posts. It'd be great if other people tried shutting his trolling down too. Speech goes both ways

“Second, we're also, along with Gen Z (those actually in college), two generations that have and will have it far worse than the previous generations in terms of revenue, level of life and advancement opportunity.

... How many orchestral trombone students graduate each year in North America? Hundreds? How many orchestra positions open up each year?...”

I’ve thought a lot about this over the years from the perspective of my undistinguished career as a lawyer and as a parent of two young men. There was an ad I liked back in the late 90s that featured some Gen X slacker hitchhiking across Australia. “Because all the good jobs and cheap cars were gone,” he explained.

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive when the Boomers came of age. There was a period in the late 60s to about the energy crunch in 1974 when it was very easy to get going.Some economists point to this period as when NA was the most prosperous. I know there was a tremendous expansion in the legal profession at that time and through the 70s as a whole.

In the 80s, the Boomers who’d eased into careers in the 70s thought they discovered money, just they previously thought they’d discovered music and sex. In the 90s, they discovered parenthood. And so it went.

The rewards were not shared equally though. I was born in 1955, by some people’s reckoning at the tail end or in the shadow of the boom. I always struggled to find work in the summers between school terms except for 1981 when I got a really good job with BC Ferries. By the late summer though, the IWA went out on strike, mills began to close, and the economy crashed. Suddenly, within a few weeks, if you wanted a job, say, washing dishes in a restaurant, get in a block-long line. This was the 1982 world recession. But things worked out.

Are you worse off in terms of revenue, level of life and advancement opportunity? Depends. If you’re looking for a gig as a professional musician, undoubtedly. First there was disco, then there was digital. And the gov’t and Corp money supporting the arts dried up. Academia seems to have flourished, largely, I think, because they persuaded middle class parents to mortgage their homes to pay ever-increasing college tuition.

If you trained in IT, well that appears to be a much different story. Techies look like 80s Yuppies: they have more money than they know what to do with.

It’s about going where the money is, both geographically and in terms of what kind of work you want to do. Good results usually flow from good preparation and good choices along the way. Pay attention. If you can get a little bit ahead of the herd, great. Check your emails especially if you want work from Boomers and Gen Xers (who seem to have been forgotten since the rise of the Millenials).

I'm sorry, I'm lost. What does this have to do with showing up, for a gig, on time?

Gary wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:29 am I'm sorry, I'm lost. What does this have to do with showing up, for a gig, on time?

It’s an “old guy rant” Gary.

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Schlitz. What, then, would you suggest as the minimum for staying current?

Schlitz wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:01 pm Group chats, texts are more accessible for me, and the workplace prefers them.

I would say it depends on your workplace. Where I work, it is written in the contract that supervisors will respond to emails within a certain amount of time. My brother is a senior partner in the nation’s largest corporate tax law firm. He rarely has his phone on. It seems like his clients mainly call his office or email. We definitely have added texts to the communication stream where I work, but would not say it the preferred method of communication. All of this really has very little to do with the fact that the vast majority of professional jobs require a person to take care of business, regardless of the method of communication.

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I’ve got decent quality of life Schlitz.

Schlitz, e-mails and apps and other platforms are not mutually exclusive. You think we all don't use Dropbox and Drive and Doodle and PayPal and TransferWise and what not already? You're not a genius, you haven't discovered these, people have known about them for a while and yes, they are used by musicians everywhere.

Your workplace prefers texts and group chats to emails? Well good for you but as a freelance musician my workplaces most definitely do not.

I notice that Mr. Schlitz has removed all his posts. I'm leaving them in place to show his unwillingness to stand by his opinions.

The last two were also pretty snarky so don't feel you are missing anything.

Going back to the original question, I have noticed a reticence to take gigs on the part of people my age. That's fine by me- more work, more money, more fun.

I think a lot of it has to do with whacked-out priorities. Lots of serious young musicians prioritize practice, and routine, above taking gigs. They think "go big or go home." This is wrong- it's start small, or stay home- forever- or start making lattes. And hey, that might work for the person it works for, but those aren't good odds.

Geez guys, I was just blowing off steam when I started this thread, not trying to start an inter generational conflict.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:07 pm I notice that Mr. Schlitz has removed all his posts. I'm leaving them in place to show his unwillingness to stand by his opinions.

The last two were also pretty snarky so don't feel you are missing anything.

Thank you Bruce!

But, but . . some of us like Snark.