TromboneChat

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jun 19, 2017, 01:41PM"Do, or do not -- there is no try."

-Yoda

I know who your teacher is!

Nope.

You don't.

Not even close.

Sorry...

S.

Guys, that's so fun to read at times...I guess it depends on your embouchure philosophy.

Buzzing on the way to work, or just because you don't have your instrument/mouthpiece is one thing, doing it systematically as a part of your daily routine is a completely different thing.

Free buzzing, mouthpiece buzzing, rim mp buzzing, leadpipe buzzing - you name it. The fact is, on most mouthpiece the pitch you get on most mp is not the same get by playing the same mp and same embouchure setup/tension on your instrument.

Still, free buzzing or mouthpiece buzzing can help us establish the relation between pitches and our embouchure set up. I hope we all agree on that...

I do it for fun! This morning after my coffee I did some "horselaugh" or flapping the lips by blowing, not a tone just a flap-flap-flap-flap, a frequency, nobody could hear this as a tone. I thought. I did it again and ask my wife: can you hear this frequency as a tone? She said : yes I can can hear some overtones guid me to the low frequency tone. Wow! Can you sing it? She sang an F, and then I heard the F my self in the flap-flap-flap. So I relized that the low flap-flap-flap is really a very low lipbuzzing, with a very low pitch, much lower then the piano lowest tone, even the bigest churh organ.

Why do I tell this? Well just for fun I guess. It is true though!
 

I've been a lifelong mouthpiece buzzer. If I was having trouble making smooth connections on the horn, or my sound wasn't as I liked, mouthpiece buzzing was my go-to.

In January, I had a lesson, via skype, with Doug Elliott.

It occurs to me that I haven't buzzed a mouthpiece since that lesson. Not even once.

Doug gave me some exercises to focus on, including freebuzzing, and pointed out some other physical movements that were specific to me. For now, if something goes awry in my playing, my focus goes straight to Doug's suggestions.

Perhaps I will start to add some mouthpiece buzzing back into my process, to see if it can still be of some use to me. But for the now, I'm not missing it.

Andrew

I think that I the last month spendt about4 minutes alltogher on mouthpiece buzzing. Once in my life my teacher tought me mouthpiece buzzing,I really doubt the benifits for me. But it seems to work for others. I have spendt much time trying to evaluate the mpc buzz, doing it for a month, not doing it for a month, two months, three months. For me the embouchure seems to be better without it.

FOR ME! MAYBE NOT FOR YOU!

I see that the debate "to buzz or not to buzz" rages on.

I believe William Shakespeare commented on this topic some years ago.

"To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

Macbeth Act 5, scene 5, 19–28

That figures. Never played trombone, but horns in.

Quote from: bonenick on Yesterday at 12:41 AM
---snip---

The fact is, on most mouthpiece the pitch you get on most mp is not the same get by playing the same mp and same embouchure setup/tension on your instrument.

---snip---
No, Nick. The real "fact" is that which mouthpiece you are using has little or nothing to do with the commonly experienced pitch change when a m'pce buzz is transferred into the horn. Most of us have to learn how to m'pce buzz in a manner that is similar to the way we play on the horn. That single learning experience made such a difference in my playing that I cannot begin to tell you about it. Everything got better. Quickly. And...I have seen it work for many students as well.

On all brass instruments.

It's a sort of epiphany experience. Like "OH!!! That's what you've been talking about!!!"

I repeat...it is not necessary to learn this technique to become a fine player, and if one is satisfied with how things are going on the horn it is just presents more unnecessary work to learn how to play...slightly differently. But satisfaction is a dangerous position in craft and in art both. There's always more to learn, and this is one way to do so that doesn't...if done right...threaten the whole physical balance upon which one has based one's expertise. It essentially shines a light on how that balance has been achieved while simultaneously showing ways to improve that balance.

I don't mind that many people do not want to deal with this idea, but when they present reasons like the one you used above...reasons that I know damned well are false due to extensive personal experience both on the horn and teaching...I have to call them out.

Sorry...no hostility intended. Just trying to get at the truths of the mater.

Later...

S.

Quote from: svenlarsson on Yesterday at 02:07 AMI do it for fun! This morning after my coffee I did some "horselaugh" or flapping the lips by blowing, not a tone just a flap-flap-flap-flap, a frequency, nobody could hear this as a tone. I thought. I did it again and ask my wife: can you hear this frequency as a tone? She said : yes I can can hear some overtones guid me to the low frequency tone. Wow! Can you sing it? She sang an F, and then I heard the F my self in the flap-flap-flap. So I relized that the low flap-flap-flap is really a very low lipbuzzing, with a very low pitch, much lower then the piano lowest tone, even the bigest churh organ.

Why do I tell this? Well just for fun I guess. It is true though!
 

Precisely.

Thank you, Svenne.

When you get down to it, every frequency...every measurement of repeated vibration in time...is a "note." Some entities...depending on their size, from say a mosquito up to a planet...might perceive things that we hear as "notes" as tempos. Or vice-versa. Add in the universal overtone series to that mix and you have a heady idea about how the universe is actually constructed.

Go here to read the introduction to my book. I cover this idea in some depth there.

Later...

S.

Quote from: The Bone Ranger on Yesterday at 02:27 AMI've been a lifelong mouthpiece buzzer. If I was having trouble making smooth connections on the horn, or my sound wasn't as I liked, mouthpiece buzzing was my go-to.

In January, I had a lesson, via skype, with Doug Elliott.

It occurs to me that I haven't buzzed a mouthpiece since that lesson. Not even once.

Doug gave me some exercises to focus on, including freebuzzing, and pointed out some other physical movements that were specific to me. For now, if something goes awry in my playing, my focus goes straight to Doug's suggestions.

Perhaps I will start to add some mouthpiece buzzing back into my process, to see if it can still be of some use to me. But for the now, I'm not missing it.

Andrew

i believe that Doug's approach...the whole Reinhardt concept, done right...brings one to pretty much the same place as does mine.

All roads lead to Rome.

Except of course the ones that don't.



Later...

S.

Sam, one question. You are of course one with more experience and level in music than most of us others here. You seem to tell us lot of good advices how to buzz the mouthpiece or without. But since all this buzz discussion started with Christian Lindberg tell he dont buzz. And Svenne tell lot of times it fits some but not necessary all players. He tried everything up through the years I think. Now, to the questions.

How could a player like Lindberg become the best solo trombone player in the world without doing any buzzing? Since he have done nearly everything that is possible and not possible on a trombone, could he been doing more if he had been buzzing the mouthpiece? Seems to me he got max out of the trombone?

(That reminds of the word one idiot can ask more than 10 wise can answer. But I think you have an answer somehow )

Leif

Quote from: patrickosmith on Yesterday at 03:34 AMI see that the debate "to buzz or not to buzz" rages on.

I believe William Shakespeare commented on this topic some years ago.

"To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

Macbeth Act 5, scene 5, 19–28
Cosmic!!!

The human condition in a nutshell!!!

Except for say artists on the level of Bach and Mozart and Beethoven and...you know...down the line to people like Jascha Heifetz, Charlie Parker and other musical masters of performance.

But it does not pertain here.

"...a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Perhaps we are all "idiots" simply for wanting to learn how to play our primitive blowtube on the same level as are the greatest pianos and violins. But other than that?

It "signifies" if it helps people to approach closer to their performance goal.

I prefer this one, myself.

QuoteWHOEVER KNOWS THE MYSTERY OF VIBRATIONS INDEED KNOWS ALL THINGS.
       -- Hazrat Inayat Khan
Or perhaps this one:

QuoteA MAN'S INCLINATION IS THE ROOT OF THE TREE OF HIS LIFE.
       -- Hazrat Inayat Khan
Quest on, Patrick.

In the end, it's all we've got.

Later...

S.

Quote from: savio on Yesterday at 08:03 AMSam, one question. You are of course one with more experience and level in music than most of us others here. You seem to tell us lot of good advices how to buzz the mouthpiece or without. But since all this buzz discussion started with Christian Lindberg tell he dont buzz. And Svenne tell lot of times it fits some but not necessary all players. He tried everything up through the years I think. Now, to the questions.

How could a player like Lindberg become the best solo trombone player in the world without doing any buzzing? Since he have done nearly everything that is possible and not possible on a trombone, could he been doing more if he had been buzzing the mouthpiece? Seems to me he got max out of the trombone?

Leif
He could have been even better. With or without m'pce buzzing.

None of us ever even approach "perfection."

Bet on it.

Carmine Caruso...over and over again:

Quote                           We're only human!!!


Bet on that as well.

Later...

S.

Quote from: sabutin on Yesterday at 08:16 AMHe could have been even better. With or without m'pce buzzing.

None of us ever even approach "perfection."

Bet on it.

Carmine Caruso...over and over again:

Bet on that as well.

Later...

S.

Thanks, I believe you might are right.

Another question, can buzzing done wrong harm us or destroy development? And what is the most common faults we do?

I actually do some mouthpiece buzzing but mostly as kind of warm up or together with my small students. I never thought of how to do it, we just try to get it buzz and hit the intonation often with a piano.

In music aspects I tend to sing inside me to get the output I want instead of buzzing.

And Sam, could you listen my mp3 in "performance" section and tell me how to play that kind of music? I believe you have done that more than any else here. If you have time of course. The thing is I'm very unsure how to do it, even if I like to play that kind of style.

Leif

Hey Sam,

If it's inspirational quotes from musicians you want, then try this one ...

“At the very 11th hour, an artist might do something that will eclipse everything else.”
Van Cliburn

Best,
Patrick

In my travels to the ITF right now, We just stopped north of Cambria at the elephant seal viewing area.  I counted about 80 of them on the beach and in the water.

Their vocalizations seem like about 4 hz and it sounds like about a C or D to me.  Some of them are lower and I might identifying the "pitch" as a G below.  I never really thought about low pitches like that before.

I actually do agree with this. However, if you are not able to buzz into the mouthpiece, you possibly are not able to buzz into the instrument. My sister cannot buzz her lips at all, much less can she buzz while the ends of her lips are pinched. In my experience, if you are able to buzz into the mouthpiece first, it is much easier to learn how to play the instrument.

Quote from: stealthheartocarinaZ on Jun 26, 2017, 08:18PMMy sister cannot buzz her lips at all, much less can she buzz while the ends of her lips are pinched.
Trying to buzz with pinched lips is a good way to guarantee failure.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jun 26, 2017, 12:43PMIn my travels to the ITF right now, We just stopped north of Cambria at the elephant seal viewing area.  I counted about 80 of them on the beach and in the water.

Their vocalizations seem like about 4 hz and it sounds like about a C or D to me.  Some of them are lower and I might identifying the "pitch" as a G below.  I never really thought about low pitches like that before.

There is a line between frequencies that we identify as pitches and those that we identify as tempos. I haven't done or seen any hard scientific research on this, but my guess is that it is an individual thing exactly where that line may be. If you're interested in the ramifications of this as far as musicians are concerned, go read the intro to my book. I cover it in some detail.

S.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jun 26, 2017, 12:43PMIn my travels to the ITF right now, We just stopped north of Cambria at the elephant seal viewing area.  I counted about 80 of them on the beach and in the water.

Their vocalizations seem like about 4 hz and it sounds like about a C or D to me.  Some of them are lower and I might identifying the "pitch" as a G below.  I never really thought about low pitches like that before.

There is a line between frequencies that we identify as pitches and those that we identify as tempos. I haven't done or seen any hard scientific research on this, but my guess is that it is an individual thing exactly where that line may be. If you're interested in the ramifications of this as far as musicians are concerned, go read the intro to my book. I cover it in some detail.

S.