Earl Williams Trombone

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:38 am

i hear you, but seeing as doug's info is from inside the shop, it might carry a bit of weight...

worth looking into. perhaps the accepted wisdom at the moment is just that: accepted wisdom?

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:52 am

Very interesting information coming out of this thread regarding the Model 10. So were 12 or 20-30 produced? Both suggestions are coming from VERY creditable sources so it's hard to decipher which is "correct". One worked for Earl as a kid and one took over the business. Both must have their reasons for the numbers of 10's produced.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:12 pm

Well the 12 figure came from Earl. I wanted to buy one in 1969 but could not afford it was the main issue. I already owed him another summer buffing horns and sweeping the floor. I asked about it and he said he only made a dozen and did not really want to make any more. For what reason I do not know, so I never got one.

When the company came from Tenn to Calicchio in LA there was no model 10 bell mandrel. My business partner Mike Thomas is the one that arranged the sale from Jay to Calicchio. Mike went down to Tenn and did the inventory etc. When it went to Calicchio there were many 6 bells and some stamped as model 7's, some 8 or 9 bells and no model 10 bells.

I saw John Duda in Tulsa about 2 weeks ago while on vacation. What a great visit I had with John. I could not say enough nice things about him if I tried too. I had asked him to do a copper bell for my model 4 about 6 years ago when I got into this thing through Bart Dalton. A friend had an upper section for a Minnick with no bell flair. So he put a Coprion bell from a Conn on it and what a great sound it had! When Bart was in town he played it and really loved and so did I. So I asked John to make me one and he did. It has an unbelievably clean clear sound. It is just beautiful, craftsmenship is totally cool, just a tremendous bell.

Anyway while I was there I had the chance to look around at the old Williams stuff they had acquired from Rich Chovner. Most of what I remembered was there. Earl was a pack rat and never, never threw anything away. But there is not a bell mandrel for a model 10 in the pile of stuff, nor are there any model 10 bells from Burbank, Tennessee or anywhere else in the shop.

There are a few cards from the Burbank era not many but a couple. One is for a Dick Nash model 8 that a friend of mine owns but nothing useful as to how he built his horns, mostly cryptic notes in Earls chicken scratch hand-writting.

I have no idea how many horns were made in Tennessee by Jay and I would love to talk to him. Doug could you arrange that off line maybe? I would really like to find out some of what he knows about Williams history.

I hope this helps on the quantity of model 10s made and some of the info out there. I may be way off base, you never know because there is so little actual documentation about Earl, Bob and the horns. That is why I am kind of farming to get anything I can. I know a little bit from my time there but man that was 40 years ago now. And I don't know what I had for lunch yesterday! Some thing do stick in my small reptilian brain and other things do not.

So I am back from a wonderful vacation! Send me your stuff And I will try to assemble it into some kind of useful order, that may or may not be meaningful!

j

ttf_RepublicanTbone76 · Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:20 pm

This conversation got me to find the copy of an old Earl Williams price list. I think it is from the late 60's. The 10 cost a wopping $450! What is most interesting is the 10 is listed as a .565 bore. I do not think you can find replacement parts that size anytime soon.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:31 pm

Wow Please send me a copy of that price list would you! I have one from the mid 70's that gives a price of $720.00 plus the case. If you would email teh price list I have some things I can send back you would enjoy as well.

Yamaha makes a .564 slide tube that is 29.25 inches long. So they can be found out there. Allied lists a part number of Y-D09 42101 and Y-D09 42103 for outers (27 inches)and the inner is Y-D09 42111. Inners are listed at $47.70, and the outers are $18.65 and $16.40 respectively.

ttf_john sandhagen · Post by **ttf_john sandhagen** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:34 pm

Most bass trombones are .5625" ...Yamaha rounded theirs up to .563...I've had people tell me it's harder to fill a bigger horn like a Yamaha...

Anyway, .003" of an inch...about the thickness of a post it note ( not the sticky side).

OK, back to Williams...

ttf_RepublicanTbone76 · Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:37 pm

Quote from: jnoxon on Jul 06, 2009, 02:31PMWow Please send me a copy of that price list would you! I have one from the mid 70's that gives a price of $720.00 plus the case. If you would email teh price list I have some things I can send back you would enjoy as well.

Yamaha makes a .564 slide tube that is 29.25 inches long. So they can be found out there. Allied lists a part number of Y-D09 42101 and Y-D09 42103 for outers (27 inches)and the inner is Y-D09 42111. Inners are listed at $47.70, and the outers are $18.65 and $16.40 respectively.

Mid 70's? That is when Bob owned it, right? Did he ever make a 10?

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:00 pm

Earl died in 1976, Bob in 1979. To my knowledge Bob did not make any complete basses. He did some slides and repairs to worn out horns is all I am aware of.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:08 pm

Jay insists that there WERE some Model 10 bells AND mandrels for them in the inventory when he sold the company.

I visited his place at least two or three times, and I think I remember him showing me the mandels for the Model 10.

John, I will PM you his contact info.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:10 pm

Doug

You never know, I am sure it is a possibility. It is one of those mysteries you encounter from time to time. I will get a hold of Chris and see what he knows. I run across him from on occassion. I will let you know what I learn. Maybe the never made it to LA.......

j

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:36 am

Quote from: RepublicanTbone76 on Jul 06, 2009, 02:20PMWhat is most interesting is the 10 is listed as a .565 bore. I do not think you can find replacement parts that size anytime soon.
Olds and Reynolds horns were listed at .565". Not surprising, given the close relationship between Olds and Williams at one time. Of course, that's of little use, since replacement tubes for Olds basses aren't out there, either.

Then again, the bore isn't the most important factor. It's more about the stocking OD and the outer slide ID, along with the length. A few thousandths here of there on the bore of the inner isn't a big deal, but the mating parts do need to fit. If the fit is too loose, you get too much air leakage. Too tight makes for mechanical problems.

ttf_RepublicanTbone76 · Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:50 am

Quote from: JohnL on Jul 07, 2009, 07:36AMOlds and Reynolds horns were listed at .565". Not surprising, given the close relationship between Olds and Williams at one time. Of course, that's of little use, since replacement tubes for Olds basses aren't out there, either.

Then again, the bore isn't the most important factor. It's more about the stocking OD and the outer slide ID, along with the length. A few thousandths here of there on the bore of the inner isn't a big deal, but the mating parts do need to fit. If the fit is too loose, you get too much air leakage. Too tight makes for mechanical problems.

I never thought about that. It is still an odd size.

Speaking of which, why did Earl never design a large bore tenor? Surely by the 60's with the success of the 88H, Earl had to have been asked to make large bore tenors. The 8 and 9 are .520 (I think) and the 10 is .565. Thats a huge leap.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:53 am

Actually Earl did design a large bore tenor horn. It is the moodel 8 and 9. His idea was to keep the front end of the horn small, and the back end large. The bell on the 8 is 8.5 inches and the 9 is 8.5 or 9 inches usually 9 inches. The 8 and 9 were designed primarily for the studio players. It is a huge blow to go from a Bach 12/16, or a 2B, or a .500 bore horn to a .547. The design of the 8 and 9 made it an easy blow with the .522 bore size and you get the dark mellow sound of a Bach 42 or and 8H or 88H. Many of the LA studio players used the 8 and 9's for that reason.

If you have not played one you should it is a very different feel for a small shank horn. I have both an 8 and a 9. I use mostly a Bach 3 with them, sometimes a 6.5AL

ttf_RepublicanTbone76 · Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:54 am

Quote from: jnoxon on Jul 07, 2009, 11:53AMActually Earl did design a large bore tenor horn. It is the moodel 8 and 9. His idea was to keep the front end of the horn small, and the back end large. The bell on the 8 is 8.5 inches and the 9 is 8.5 or 9 inches usually 9 inches. The 8 and 9 were designed primarily for the studio players. It is a huge blow to go from a Bach 12/16, or a 2B, or a .500 bore horn to a .547. The design of the 8 and 9 made it an easy blow with the .522 bore size and you get the dark mellow sound of a Bach 42 or and 8H or 88H. Many of the LA studio players used the 8 and 9's for that reason.

If you have not played one you should it is a very different feel for a small shank horn. I have both an 8 and a 9. I use mostly a Bach 3 with them, sometimes a 6.5AL

A Bach 3? Isn't that kind of big for a .522 bore? One more thing John, when did Earl stop making the "Williams and Wallace" horns? I once sold one for a friend and I have had regrets for years for not buying it myself.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:21 am

Might be big but it works for me, fairly well anyway. Have not found anything better yet. I dont use that horn more than once or twice a year.

Earl made the Wallace Williams from about 1925 to about 1938 or 1939. He then went to work for Department of Defense, then known as the War Department until 1946. He was working on a project drawing aluminium shafts for arrows that were air, or hydrauliclly launched. These were designed for about a mile or more range. He also did something with telescopic brass tubing. When the war was over and the projects ceased he was given an enourmous amount of sheet and tube cartridge brass which he continued to make horns with until his death in 1976. When Bob (son) died in 1979 Larry Minnick ended up with the brass.

I have some info on Spike Wallace I have scanned and could email to you if I have not already done so?

j

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:35 am

Quote from: jnoxon on Jul 07, 2009, 11:53AMActually Earl did design a large bore tenor horn. It is the moodel 8 and 9. His idea was to keep the front end of the horn small, and the back end large. The bell on the 8 is 8.5 inches and the 9 is 8.5 or 9 inches usually 9 inches.The 8 and 9 were designed primarily for the studio players.
I am not at all sure that this was so much "Earl's idea" and not just the way things were in LA when he began his career. When he first started making horns under his own name in the mid '20s/early '30s they were "Wallace-Williams" horns. Every one that I have seen has a relatively small bell and either a .525-ish or .547 slide, often with TIS as well. Spike Williams was the principal trombonist in the LA Philharmonic. I assume that he did some movie recording work as well...it was the '30s and most movie soundtracks were kind of old-school "symphonic" in approach...but his main gig was w/the LA Phil. Small bells generally project better than do larger ones.,..more focus...and somewhat brighten the sound. Their efficacy in live situations has been well proven to me many times, including gigs that I played on a couple of Wallace-Williams horns that came into my possession maybe 10 years ago and with a number of '20s/'30s Conn horns that were set up much the same way. In point of fact many musicians who did a great deal of recording actuallly went the other way...Jimmy Knepper on his 42 bell/36 slide Bach, J.J. Johnson and Urbie Green on their 3B bells/2b slides, Bill Watrous w/his choice of an 8" bell over the more common 7.5" option on older Bach small bores, many many LA players in the Kenton/post-Kenton era who chose 8" bells for their 6Hs, etc. A larger bell in the studio darkens and warms up the sound when playing into the mic.

QuoteIt is a huge blow to go from a Bach 12/16, or a 2B, or a .500 bore horn to a .547. The design of the 8 and 9 made it an easy blow with the .522 bore size and you get the dark mellow sound of a Bach 42 or and 8H or 88H. Many of the LA studio players used the 8 and 9's for that reason.
Yes, it is a big change of blow. But I wonder how true the rest of that statement is. Anybodyhere really know who played what in the LA studios through the '30s, '40s, '50s and '60s. I don't recall any relatively large Williams horns or even larger Conns or Bachs being mentioned except for Billy Byers and his Williams 8, and he was mainly a writer and jazz soloist.

QuoteIf you have not played one you should it is a very different feel for a small shank horn. I have both an 8 and a 9. I use mostly a Bach 3 with them, sometimes a 6.5AL

I am not disputing how good they are...I love those designs, myself...just how they were used and why they were made.

Not a "dispute", even...merely a request for more specific info.

Later...

S.

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:39 am

Quote from: jnoxon on Jul 09, 2009, 09:21AMMight be big but it works for me, fairly well anyway. Have not found anything better yet. I dont use that horn more than once or twice a year.

Earl made the Wallace Williams from about 1925 to about 1938 or 1939. He then went to work for Department of Defense, then known as the War Department until 1946. He was working on a project drawing aluminium shafts for arrows that were air, or hydrauliclly launched. These were designed for about a mile or more range. He also did something with telescopic brass tubing. When the war was over and the projects ceased he was given an enourmous amount of sheet and tube cartridge brass which he continued to make horns with until his death in 1976. When Bob (son) died in 1979 Larry Minnick ended up with the brass.

I have some info on Spike Wallace I have scanned and could email to you if I have not already done so?

j

I would love to see that info. Please email it me at [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] if you find a spare moment or two.

Thanks...

S.

ttf_john sandhagen · Post by **ttf_john sandhagen** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:15 am

Just some thoughts about Spike, the LA Phil pre WWII, LA, and recording.

Spike was a mover and a shaker...he became the president of local 47...I'm not sure how the relationship came into being, but things started well, then the depression came...and nobody was doing much.

Before WWII LA was a minor city...and the phil was minor symphony also. Getting Otto Klemperer was a fluke and...well, he was nuts.

Studios had their own orchestras, which wasn't a great gig...but better than freelancing. Not nearly as "prestigious" as today. Typically a handful of strings and woodwinds, a couple of trumpets a horn and trombone, lots of percussion instruments. Recording was what you did if you couldn't get a good job in a theater pit.

LA and film music did a 180 after WWII...Budgets happened, risks taken, studio orchestras expanded then disbanded. Jazz musicians allowed to play in the studios...then encouraged. Half the soundtracks in the '50s and 60 sounded like Kenton...because his players and writers were working. Studio/recording became a good gig.

I think much of the W&W instruments owe alot to the Olds Co. Many similarities, but Earl had a different take on some things and went his own way.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:52 am

The early Wallace Williams horns went from a .460 bore to a .522. I have never seen a .547, yet is definitely possible. Earl did a lot of unusual things for his time. I have a couple of Wallace Wms horns that are way ahead of there time I think. Because no one was building, mainstream makers, things much over .500. One of them from the early 1930, has a .522 bore and an 8.5 inch bell. That was a huge tenor for that time and era. Another is a .500 with an 8 inch bell, more mainstream. I had a dual bore .509, .522 with an 8.5 inch bell. I have also seen a .530 with a 9 inch bell. Defiantly unusual for that time frame.

The reason for my comments on development of the 8 and 9 come from conversation with Al Sherman who is no longer with us. He was a pupil of John Wallace, and knew them both personally and professionally, Earl and Spike that is. Dick Nash is how I got in contact with Mr Sherman originally. I was looking for more info on Spike and Earl. He was in his mid 90's about 10 years ago when we spoke. Mr Sherman was exiting the LA Studio scene in the late 40's early 50's as Dick was coming into that scene. Mr Sherman play Wallace Wms, and had a model 9. He had first hand knowledge of how and why they were developed.

The 8 and 9 became popular because you could get the larger symphonic sound without the huge blow. Just some background so you know how I arrived at that conclusion. Also I worked for Earl as a kid to pay for 1/2 of my first horn. And Earl made the comment many times about keeping the front small and the back end large and the horn was easier to play and did not require the effort of a .547 or larger horn. And did get a much darker sound that way.

How the horns were used is something that is most likely long lost in history. I thought is was real treat to find a source like Mr. Sherman, who had that first hand knowledge and was easily able to remember it . The were a few other who played model 8's as well. Dick Nash, Dick Hyde, Tommy Pederson, had one don't know how much it was used,They were a fairly popular horn. I will have to dig in my feeble old brain to remember more names. Those just easily come to mind...

As far as the freelance work in LA I am not certain how it worked conclusively, but as John Sandhagen states everyone had there own orchestra. And from talking to some other old timers I not sure there was much of it. Most of the old timers talk about having an orchestra gig and that was it. There did not seem to be much cross over until later years. I am sure there was some but how much is debatable. The guys in there 80's that I know talk about one gig, they worked this band in this hotel, then moved on. I don't think the freelance thing came in until the late 40's early 50's after Petrillo killed the bands/recording industry.
Somewhere after that seems to be when the lesser name groups disappeared and the pool of "freelance" guy grew.

By the way Billy did have a 8 for a short period but most of his work was done on his 4. I have his backup model 4 and Bryant, his son, still has billy's main horn.

I wish I had started looking into this years earlier when more of the players from that period were still alive. Man I could have learned so much more just even 10 years ago.

If anyone else wants the info I have on John "SPike" Kipper Wallace send me an email to [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url]. I would be glad to forward it on to you.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:55 pm

I dropped the dime to download whatever was in the LA Times archive on Spike Wallace. Sadly, most of it related to his time as president of Local 47.

His obit says he came to California in 1906 and played with various bands, including Paul Whiteman. From other sources, it appears that he was the principal trombone of the Los Angeles Symphony, a predecessor to the the LA Philharmonic. The Symphony probably wasn't anywhere close to a full-time gig, so Spike probably did do a lot of what we'd call freelancing back then.

The Phil was founded in 1919, and the LASO folded the next year. The obit says he joined the Phil when it was formed amd remained with the orchestra until 1938, but does not indicate which part he played (Earle Hagen's autobiography mentions taking lessons from Spike in the '30's and says that he was the bass trombonist with the Phil). After he left the Phil, he played with the studios until he became president of Local 47 in 1940. There is an article from 1934 dealing with a financial crisis for the Phil, and Spike's name is mentioned as possibly being let go, but his instrument is only given as "trombone".

I've heard tell of "Spike's Horn", but have never seen it (or even pictures of it). It's supposed to be a silver-belled bass made for Spike by Earl. I think it may belong to Dick Nash these days.

My own Williams is apparently an oddity. It looks like a Wallace-Williams, but the Wallace name is not on the horn. Maybe Earl made a few horns after parting ways with Spike but before going to work for the government?

Here's an old thread on Spike with a few more references: http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=38239.0

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:27 pm

OK here is what I have on John "Spike" Kipper Wallace> I got this info from Norm Swikert (sp). He was a french horn player in the Chicago Symphony who is working to catalog players in major symphonies in the United States. Dont know why I did not do this earlier! Excuse the typos, between scanning and cut and paste it leaves a bit to be desired.

john noxon

John K. Wallace was principal trombone of the Los Angeles Symphony Orchestra, 19J..0-13 and 1915-18.$' and is found in the bass section during the 191L-15 sea¬son (5/17 only). He then was 3rd (bas s) trombone of the Los An,,;;el es ?hilhar¬m.oni c Orelle stra, 1919-36 ( initials I. K. all season, 1922-23). (FpOI:l proc:ram ros ters)
----_._------------------------~----
"Spikell t'Tallace;) 1st trombone of the LA Philo Oreh., is nOH manv.f'acturing trombones. (Overture, Vo1§7, #10, Feb 1928, p.3)

J. K. ("SPIKE") WALLACE
As the III/crIllllio!1al i\lusician goes to press, word WIIlCS to this vlEee of the dcath of J. K. IVallacc, pn:sidcr\t of Local 47, Los Angeles, since J<J.lO. "Spike," as he was alTcctiunatdy called by his host of friends not only in the South.west hut throughout the country. was a topllight tromhonc player who had, in his time, also shown his vers:!!ility by playing such varied instrul\1ents as the tuha. lhe violin. string hass
(Plcase till'1/. t.n 1Ja(tc tldrtl/-foltr)
f1t..rr. ~'I 19C-T.-llq~-o, F'f>,9/31] 9

Closing Chord "SPIKE" WALLACE
(COlllillltCll from P[({f(; nine)
(with Paul \Vhitcm:m), and the banjo. After a long and varied career as theater and salon n1usi¬dan, he became trombonist with the newly organized Los Angeles Phil- -~ harmonic Orchestra, hulding down-1 that desk nnti11938. Thereafter he J wa~; engagetl hy the motion picture ~ studios, and he was only a short 1 time in this work. before he bec:une president 0'£ Local 47.
During his tenure of ofIice the Los Angeles localll1ade great strides in membership, and last year com¬pleted its new, spadous headquar¬ten;.
From jl).lO on "Spikc" was a dele¬gate to the national conventions, though he had to miss several be¬cause of ill health.
"Spike," who was 71, died 2t his home in Los Angc\es at J I P. M., September 25th. The fUlleral was held at the new union building in Hollywood on Friday, September 29th. I-Ie is survived by his wife Edith.
----------.----------
J. K. "Spike" Wallace, 71, president of
Local 47 A. F. of M., died September 25 in ¬_,. Hollywood after a long siege of heart trouble. ¬.)j Well known as a trombonist in bygone years. :2 Wallace played in the Paul Whiteman band ~: during the 1920's and later with the Los ~ Angeles Philharmonic. He served as President 't of Local 47 since 1940.
~ J:.:;.- Y/I4PI-lCN);, f/,;/. '-I, 11~, O«-r-, 19.5-t::, p, /cj ~
? j

JOHN KIPPER
(SPII(E) WALLACE
pictured on this month's front cover, was born in Sedalia, Pettis County, Missouri, March 4, 1879. Very few persons except his intimates knew him by any other name than "Spike." How he acquired the appellation I cannot tel1 but by it he was known to everyone.
As a boy he studied violin and brass and was a member of the home town ban~. Came 1898 and at the age of 19 he enlisted as a bandsman in a regiment of Missouri V olun¬teer Infantry for the Spanish-American War, seeing service in camp at Chickamauga, Tennessee. When the war was over he went to Colorado and was employed as a "vaquero" or cowboy. In that occupation he had some very interesting experiences. Soon after he was well known as a musician in Denver and later left for California. January 12, 1906,
he became a member of Local No. 47-this episode marked the beginning of his major career. In Los Angeles and vicinity, his engagements included the Orpheum Theatre, Boos Brothers Cafeterias, Los Angeles Symphony Orchestra, many summer seasons at Avalon with the celebrated Santa Catalina Island Marine Band, he was in the Philharmonic Orchestra a long time, was a member of Paul Whiteman's original ensemble which began at the Hotel Alexandria during December of 1919, and finished his playing days as a tuba player in moving picture studios over a decade ago. During a part of the period mentioned and about 1918 he lived in San Francisco for a few months and was well known there.
Spike was a member of the Board of Directors in Local No. 47 during 1916. He was President of the Local con¬tinuously from January, 1940, until the time of his passing September 25, 1950. No other president served the Local that long-no other president died in office. He was several times a delegate to conventions of the American Federation of Musicians and had friends throughout the length and breadth of its jurisdiction. I was Secretary of Local 47 in 1906 when I first met him. I took his application for mem¬bership and recall that he was about 27 years of age and at the height of vigorous life. Most of our members after ward knew him as an excellent performer on string bass, trombone, baritone and tuba. But I found him a very good violinist as well by actual experience.
To be the head of an organization as large as Local No. 47 is a task not fully realized by the uninitiated . .The daily routine of the office with its attendant turmoil, the neces-

sary exercise of power and authority conferred on the chief executive officer, brings major difficulties and many heart¬aches. Close thought must be given to the problems dealt with and there is very little leisure in such an employment. This burden our brother carried for more than ten years. Spike was a strong man and in youth physical strength was combined with mental fortitude. And while these two qualities persisted through the years, when age came there was no falling off of indomitable courage and will. Spike confidently expec~ed to conquer his illness and go back to work within a short time. This was his life and he looked forward to it. But. the Creator had other plans. Whatever the poet, orator or sage may say, old age is still old age and the strong must inevitably bow to it.
And so in this wise the Great Calm came to Spike. He had no fear. He knew that time had run its course and he slept-now to be forever free from the toils and troubles of this transitory life.
The last scene of all was appropriately in the auditorium of the new building at 817 North Vine Street, Friday, Sep¬tember 29th. There at 9 a.m. the American Legion posted a guard at the casket from 9 a.m. to the conclusion of the service, and our decease? brother lay in state for two hours. The stage was literally buried in beautiful noral pieces¬there were so many some could not be brought into the hall. At 10:40 a.m. a string combination, assembled by Philip Kahgan and directed by Harry A. Hyams_ began playing behind the floral screen on the stage, continuing until 10:55 a.m. Robert L. Marsteller L' 0 appeared with a quartet of trombones. The music was superb.
At II a.m. Silver Trowel Lodge No. 415, F. & A.M., began the exemplification of the masonic ritual. There were approximately 100 apron-clad Masons present and many others in the audience who could not be identified. During the ritual the stringed orchestra rendered "Come Sweet Death" (Bach), "Largo" (Handel) and "Trauma" (Wag¬ner). Member Tommy Jones intoned "Taps." The casket was then removed to a local crematory.
hNol. sU.~nt are th~at~ hnHowl~d dead.
A rh:he-r clo(tu~:ncc :>ut"vh'e;;.
We have from those who've gone ahead The Inspirndon of their HYt::~,
:rhcy apeak. to us in lnemQry,
Nor rime nor chango: (:'U}1 dhn their ""<J[ .. th.
What though thei,. farnls We cannot ~ce Pale deatb Is but 11 gentler" birth.u
October 4, 1950.
C. L. BAGLEY.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:34 pm

Here's a first pass a cleaning the OCR artifacts out of John Noxon's information.

QuoteJohn K. Wallace was principal trombone of the Los Angeles Symphony Orchestra, 1910-13 and 1915-1918 and is found in the bass section during the 1914-15 season (5/17 only). He then was 3rd (bass) trombone of the Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra, 1919-36 (initials J. K. all season, 1922-23). (From program rosters)
----_._------------------------~----
"Spike" Wallace, 1st trombone of the LA Phil. Orch., is now manufacturing trombones. (Overture, Vo1§7, #10, Feb 1928, p.3)

J. K. ("SPIKE") WALLACE
As the International Musician goes to press, word comes to this see of the death of J. K. Wallace, president of Local 47, Los Angeles, since 1940. "Spike," as he was affectionately called by his host of friends not only in the Southwest but throughout the country, was a topflight trombone player who had, in his time, also shown his versatility by playing such varied instruments as the tuba, the violin, and the string hass
(Plcase till'1/. t.n 1Ja(tc tldrtl/-foltr)
f1t..rr. ~'I 19C-T.-llq~-o, F'f>,9/31] 9

Closing Chord "SPIKE" WALLACE
(COlllillltCll from P[({f(; nine)
(with Paul Whiteman), and the banjo. After a long and varied career as theater and salon musician, he became trombonist with the newly organized Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra, holding down that desk until 1938. Thereafter he was engaged by the motion picture studios, and he was only a short time in this work before he became president of Local 47.
During his tenure of office, the Los Angeles local made great strides in membership, and last year completed its new, spacious headquarters.
From 1910 on, "Spike" was a delegate to the national conventions, though he had to miss several because of ill health.
"Spike," who was 71, died at his home in Los Angeles at 11 PM, September 25th. The funeral was held at the new union building in Hollywood on Friday, September 29th. He is survived by his wife Edith.
----------.----------
J. K. "Spike" Wallace, 71, president of Local 47 A. F. of M., died September 25 in Hollywood after a long siege of heart trouble. Well known as a trombonist in bygone years, Wallace played in the Paul Whiteman band during the 1920's and later with the Los Angeles Philharmonic. He served as President of Local 47 since 1940.
~ J:.:;.- Y/I4PI-lCN);, f/,;/. '-I, 11~, O«-r-, 19.5-t::, p, /cj ~
? j

JOHN KIPPER (SPIKE) WALLACE
pictured on this month's front cover, was born in Sedalia, Pettis County, Missouri, March 4, 1879. Very few persons except his intimates knew him by any other name than "Spike." How he acquired the appellation I cannot tell but by it he was known to everyone.
As a boy he studied violin and brass and was a member of the home town band. Came 1898 and at the age of 19 he enlisted as a bandsman in a regiment of Missouri Volunteer Infantry for the Spanish-American War, seeing service in camp at Chickamauga, Tennessee. When the war was over he went to Colorado and was employed as a "vaquero" or cowboy. In that occupation he had some very interesting experiences. Soon after he was well known as a musician in Denver and later left for California. January 12, 1906, he became a member of Local No. 47-this episode marked the beginning of his major career. In Los Angeles and vicinity, his engagements included the Orpheum Theatre, Boos Brothers Cafeterias, Los Angeles Symphony Orchestra, many summer seasons at Avalon with the celebrated Santa Catalina Island Marine Band. He was in the Philharmonic Orchestra a long time, was a member of Paul Whiteman's original ensemble which began at the Hotel Alexandria during December of 1919, and finished his playing days as a tuba player in moving picture studios over a decade ago. During a part of the period mentioned and about 1918 he lived in San Francisco for a few months and was well known there.
Spike was a member of the Board of Directors in Local No. 47 during 1916. He was President of the Local continuously from January, 1940, until the time of his passing September 25, 1950. No other president served the Local that long-no other president died in office. He was several times a delegate to conventions of the American Federation of Musicians and had friends throughout the length and breadth of its jurisdiction. I was Secretary of Local 47 in 1906 when I first met him. I took his application for membership and recall that he was about 27 years of age and at the height of vigorous life. Most of our members afterward knew him as an excellent performer on string bass, trombone, baritone and tuba. But I found him a very good violinist as well by actual experience.
To be the head of an organization as large as Local No. 47 is a task not fully realized by the uninitiated. The daily routine of the office with its attendant turmoil, the necessary exercise of power and authority conferred on the chief executive officer, brings major difficulties and many heartaches. Close thought must be given to the problems dealt with and there is very little leisure in such an employment. This burden our brother carried for more than ten years. Spike was a strong man and in youth physical strength was combined with mental fortitude. And while these two qualities persisted through the years, when age came there was no falling off of indomitable courage and will. Spike confidently expected to conquer his illness and go back to work within a short time. This was his life and he looked forward to it. But. the Creator had other plans. Whatever the poet, orator or sage may say, old age is still old age and the strong must inevitably bow to it.
And so in this wise the Great Calm came to Spike. He had no fear. He knew that time had run its course and he slept-now to be forever free from the toils and troubles of this transitory life.
The last scene of all was appropriately in the auditorium of the new building at 817 North Vine Street, Friday, September 29th. There at 9 a.m. the American Legion posted a guard at the casket from 9 a.m. to the conclusion of the service, and our deceased brother lay in state for two hours. The stage was literally buried in beautiful floral pieces - there were so many some could not be brought into the hall. At 10:40 a.m. a string combination, assembled by Philip Kahgan and directed by Harry A. Hyams, began playing behind the floral screen on the stage, continuing until 10:55 a.m. Robert L. Marsteller appeared with a quartet of trombones. The music was superb.
At II a.m. Silver Trowel Lodge No. 415, F. & A.M., began the exemplification of the masonic ritual. There were approximately 100 apron-clad Masons present and many others in the audience who could not be identified. During the ritual the stringed orchestra rendered "Come Sweet Death" (Bach), "Largo" (Handel) and "Trauma" (Wag¬ner). Member Tommy Jones intoned "Taps." The casket was then removed to a local crematory.
hNol. sU.~nt are th~at~ hnHowl~d dead.
A rh:he-r clo(tu~:ncc :>ut"vh'e;;.
We have from those who've gone ahead The Inspirndon of their HYt::~,
:rhcy apeak. to us in lnemQry,
Nor rime nor chango: (:'U}1 dhn their ""<J[ .. th.
What though thei,. farnls We cannot ~ce Pale deatb Is but 11 gentler" birth.u
October 4, 1950.
C. L. BAGLEY.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:27 pm

Thanks!!!

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:50 pm

Speaking of a model 9, guess what is for sale!

Too bad the economy has hit me badly in the side, so I will not be bidding... Hope it goes to a good home! My guesses is that it is going to Hawaii.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Earl-Williams-Trombone-9-Mint-condition_W0QQitemZ260443641360QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBrass_Instruments?hash=item3ca3a69610&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A10|66%3A4|39%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A200

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:06 pm

Hey Koda!

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll be watching it.

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:58 pm

I saw those same Williams 9 pictures in April 2007. It was being sold by a guy in Escondido, CA and I was thinking about going to try it when I was in SoCal.

If you send your money to this "seller", don't say I didn't warn ya.....

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:02 pm

Quote from: DaveAshley on Jul 09, 2009, 08:58PMI saw those same Williams 9 pictures in April 2007. It was being sold by a guy in Escondido, CA and I was thinking about going to try it when I was in SoCal.

If you send your money to this "seller", don't say I didn't warn ya.....

Thanks for the heads up! I thought that first picture looked a little small.

I hope it doesn't go to a good home then

0 feedback, that makes sense now.

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:26 pm

So you guys think it's a scam???

ttf_Slipmo · Post by **ttf_Slipmo** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:14 pm

Looks like the seller joined eBay today. Zero feedback and is selling a horn like this right of the bat, seems odd to me. Since Dave thinks he has seen those photos before I'd be extra careful (they look familiar to me too). Send the guy some detailed questions and ask for specific photos of the trombone. If the seller indeed has the horn, they can add new detailed photos to the ebay auction.

FWIW, Some scammers stole some of my photos of a pristine King silversonic I sold on eBay a few years ago. The horn kept showing up on eBay up to two years later. Some of these criminals will lift photos from high selling auctions and use them months or years later. I photoshop my eBay ID over photos now, making it hard for them to steal and use my photos.

Caveat Emptor

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:20 pm

Good points Noah! Guess we'll just have to wait and see. Besides, my funds are a little low after buying your horn!

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:13 am

Hey guys! Thanks for the warnings. Like Koda, I thought the pictures looked awfully small too. Thanks for the warning, Dave. I think I'll pass on this one.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:44 am

Even if the seller really does have the horn, there's that nasty zero feedback thing. If I really wanted the horn, I'd ask if the seller was willing to go through an escrow service. No escrow, no bid.

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:03 am

Quote from: JohnL on Jul 10, 2009, 07:44AMEven if the seller really does have the horn, there's that nasty zero feedback thing. If I really wanted the horn, I'd ask if the seller was willing to go through an escrow service. No escrow, no bid.

Wouldn't your money be safe with paypal? As long as you have below 10 DSR's paypal holds your money until 2 days after it has arrived, or positive feedback is received.

Bet they will try to deal with payment another way.

ttf_RepublicanTbone76 · Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:44 am

The horn is in Indiana. Anyone from around there who could check it out?

ttf_RepublicanTbone76 · Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:45 am

Quote from: bachbone on Jul 09, 2009, 07:50PMToo bad the economy has hit me badly in the side, so I will not be bidding... Hope it goes to a good home! My guesses is that it is going to Hawaii.

Should have sold that NY50B

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:32 am

Quote from: bachbone on Jul 10, 2009, 08:03AMWouldn't your money be safe with paypal? As long as you have below 10 DSR's paypal holds your money until 2 days after it has arrived, or positive feedback is received.It's not so much the real protection an escrow service provides as it is the perception on the part of the seller that it would be difficult to pull a fast one on you.

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:52 am

Quote from: JohnL on Jul 10, 2009, 09:32AMIt's not so much the real protection an escrow service provides as it is the perception on the part of the seller that it would be difficult to pull a fast one on you.
This is actually a pretty smart idea!

ttf_onetrombone · Post by **ttf_onetrombone** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:19 pm

Fraud alert! I was the winning bidder on these "pictures" last December. I won't say I won the bidding on a horn because it never materialized. Red Flag #1: that was when they were listed by a zero feedback lister in CA. Red flag #2: the seller was "out of town" during the auction and couldn't send additional pics. I bid anyway because even though I already smelled a scam, I knew I could get out if there was no horn--but I really want a 9. Red flag #3: when the auction was over he sent the classic e-mail right away explaining that his paypal account had been compromised and requesting that I send the $ by Western Union. Oh, and by the way I would need to tell WU that I was a relative of his so he could get the $. Yeah, right--I'll get right on that.

I replied to tell him that I would be willing to try to proceed to pay through paypal, but that was the only option. Oh, and could he send some more pics of the horn before I sent the $?

I got the name & phone on the account from eBay at the time and there was a real person who lived in a real town by that name, but no listed phone numbers and the one they gave me alternated between an answering service with phone # only and a crude home made "this number is no longer in service" message. It was actually kind of funny. Within a day after the auction ended he had figured out there was no $ to be had from me and the listing had been "removed by the seller." Poof!

Long story that gets us to a clear scam. I just got home after being out of town for a few days. I sent this "seller" a question just to see if I get a reply. We'll need to report this one to eBay soon so nobody actually gets scammed.

John Noxon: have you ever seen these pics before? Do you know who really owns this nice looking 9?

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:28 pm

I bet Noxon remembers those pictures. He and I actually talked about driving down to Escondido together to look at it. When I contacted the "seller" about seeing the horn, I got no response

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Post by **ttf_HouBassTrombone** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:52 pm

Why do people keep trying this with really rare and expensive horns? I do not see how they can not know that people keep track of these horns and expect proof. It would be like me going up to a art dealer and telling him I am going to sell him a Monet but he can only see this one picture of it and to pay up front.... yea that is not going to happen.
-Z

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:17 pm

Quote from: HouBassTrombone on Jul 10, 2009, 08:52PMWhy do people keep trying this with really rare and expensive horns? I do not see how they can not know that people keep track of these horns and expect proof. It would be like me going up to a art dealer and telling him I am going to sell him a Monet but he can only see this one picture of it and to pay up front.... yea that is not going to happen.
-Z

There are others that don't see it like myself. Just started getting into williams trombones and haven't see the picture before. Someone could have already made a deal off of ebay by now. Scammers don't care, they just try any way possible.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:58 pm

Dave I do remember that horn. You refreshed my memory about Escondido correct? Smell bad to me.....

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:32 pm

Kenton Scott has those same Model 9 pictures over on Horn-u-Copia.net (though he's made up a composite image); he's had them for a while.

Be kinda funny if a scammer in Terra Haute swiped pictures from a scammer in Escondido, wouldn't it?

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Thanks all for looking out!! Scammers suck!!!!!

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:40 pm

I bid on it just so that no one else ends up with the scam. Until it is taken off of ebay, you never know.

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:09 am

Looks like there's 2 bids now.

ttf_KCBassBone · Post by **ttf_KCBassBone** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:00 pm

I asked the seller to post some more photos. We know that ain't going to happen.

It's probably in this thread somewhere, but I'll ask anyway: How many 9's were made?

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:06 pm

Looks like eBay pulled the auction.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:22 pm

I sent a question asking for more photos and the history of the horn. LOL I dont think I will get it.....

The horn looks familiar to me, because the case is one of the last style used in the Burbank era. The ones before it were the "red" aligator looking ones like mine. The 9's laid flat in the case. They did not sit up the like 6 in the King Coffin case.I just cant place who owns it or where I saw it. The high lights of senility, some suffer with it I personally enjoy it! I meet a lot of new people?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:21 pm

Dear Williams fans, I thought you might want to see my Williams LA model 4 Arrowhead
It's a true masterpiece and a dream to play.
Thanks,
/ Björn