Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:18 am

Quote from: Euphoni on Jul 22, 2014, 02:28PMHello I'm looking into buy a shires large tenor and I had a couple questions about finding the perfect parts for my playing style, and was hoping you could throw me some suggestions on specific parts/combos and why.

Here's some info:

Currently play a bach 42bo.

I need a horn that's sound doesn't break up past Forte. I feel like my horn can't handle what I put in it and as a result I get 'edgy' more often than desired.

My articulations are very very pronounced. Being a euphonium player, that's one of the things I'm not getting over so I need a horn to cover that up a little.

still want brilliance in my sound without the easy edge, and I don't want to sound like a euphonium.

Need a much better trigger than the bach .. Don't like the sound of any of the trigger notes. Low range almost has to be forced on this horn.

Thanks!!

This is almost impossible to answer without knowing more. Knowing more about your playing, seeing/hearing your specific Bach 42 (because they're all radically different...), and having a Shires set-up to reference.

Things that I can answer:

I am certain that any of our valves will function well.

If you were here in person, I would most likely start you off on a set-up similar to Bach 42T to start (TII 5YVNY/TX/T-Axial/TB47). This is a fairly "standard" set-up that works well. But that may not ultimately be what the ideal set-up is for you.

-Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:31 am

Quote from: watermailonman on Jul 22, 2014, 04:31PMIs there really a magic Shires setup to match each of us based on our imperfections? If this is true then we all want that of course?

I have so many (40+) small and medium trombones and they all play very different. If I compare I can tell they developed over time. The older ones does not sound like the newer ones, and they sound different from each other in soft playing and in loud playing. There is a .458" Conn from 1902 and a Conn 32H dual bore .500/.522 from 1952 and a Bach 36BO .525 from 2008. And between them (in size) I have a large mix of trombones of different designs and many bore varieties. I can not play them the same. It is up to me to play them so they sound nice. I must learn to adjust to everyone to get the most out of them.

When it comes to large bores, let say more modern .547 trombones from 1960's and later. If I compare my best six horns a Holton TR-150, Conn 88H, Bach 42, Benge 190 C, Edwards T350 and a Schilke ST20 then they all do what you are describing. They can take everything I put in them. Unfortunately no one can mask any bad things in my playing.

If a Shires can mask bad things I will be very impressed.

Anyway my belief is that the design problems you are describing has been taken care of long ago. At least if we are talking about the reliable reputable brands. Unless you have found a real bad instrument from any of the reputable brands. They also exists

If we compare all those great horns then the differences between them is not that big. They do sound different but they all should take what you put in them.

If you listen to classical recordings from the 60's and to day and listen to the trombone sections, e.g. the Chicago lower brass section, you will also hear that the trombones they used could take what they put in them. It came out as a nice sound on those recordings even if they did not play a Shires.

I would not try to buy myself out of the issues you are describing. I doubt a Shires really can help you with this? What happens when you do not play a Shires anymore? Will the problems you describe come back?

I'm very interested and I'm also looking forward to read the answer to this question you had:
/Tom

No instrument can give you talent/skill you don't have.

However...

The right instrument can help you achieve your musical goals by feeling and sounding the way you want it too. This can include emphasizing or down playing different characteristics of one's own playing. And the right horn, one that fits you and your playing like a comfortable pair of shoes, can allow one to grow as a trombonist and musician.

I think of it this way: the instrument won't give you gifts you don't have. But the right instrument will provide an avenue to explore those gifts. Additionally, the wrong instrument can stand in the way of some gifts you do have.

As you said, you cannot play all of your collection of horns the same way. There is an approach for each one of them. Matching a horn's approach with a player's approach is something that we do very well. I say this after fitting dozens, if not hundreds at this point, of players with a horn that allows them to grow and become the best musician and trombonist they can. There is a very real change that occurs. You usually can tell only after a couple of notes....everything is better.

So you are correct, no horn will give you skill you don't have.

But the right horn will let you best explore those skills and open the door to improve and develop new ones.

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:34 am

Quote from: Full Pedal Trombonist on Jul 22, 2014, 05:47PMIs it possible to order a bell that has not been fitted with ferrules or threaded bell brace hardware? This would be for the purpose of fitting it to Bach parts I already have.

It is very easy to remove the bell mounting hardware, any good tech can do it. And then you'd have Shires bell mounting hardware!

-Ben

ttf_Vintage88H · Post by **ttf_Vintage88H** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:13 am

Hello

How does the Shires Dual bore rotor differ to other traditional rotors? The dual bore valve looks very small but plays so great! I love it and would say it´s one of the best playing valves out there. What´s the secret?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:11 am

Quote from: Vintage88H on Jul 23, 2014, 08:13AMHello

How does the Shires Dual bore rotor differ to other traditional rotors? The dual bore valve looks very small but plays so great! I love it and would say it´s one of the best playing valves out there. What´s the secret?

We found that dual bore slides usually lock into an overtone very securely, that they have deeper slots for the pitch you are playing. We took that concept and applied it to the valve. Moreover, it's made right! The valve casing may be small, but everything is extremely well aligned and fitted to very close clearances. It's an excellent traditional rotary valve that plays mightier than its size would suggest.

Ben

ttf_Vintage88H · Post by **ttf_Vintage88H** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:18 am

Dual bore valve means different bores on the "in" and "out" tubings of the rotor?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:58 am

Ben,
Has branching (having a dealer) in NC ever been considered/thought about?
Charlotte/Greensboro/Raleigh would be the busiest "music" areas... but Greensboro would be centralized in the State...

Just curious.

T.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:19 am

Quote from: tsmart on Jul 24, 2014, 05:58AMBen,
Has branching (having a dealer) in NC ever been considered/thought about?
Charlotte/Greensboro/Raleigh would be the busiest "music" areas... but Greensboro would be centralized in the State...

Just curious.

T.

We are always interested in expanding our dealer network and are working toward that goal. Hoepfully you may see it somewhere close soon!

Ben

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:23 am

Quote from: griffinben on Jul 24, 2014, 06:19AMWe are always interested in expanding our dealer network and are working toward that goal. Hoepfully you may see it somewhere close soon!

Ben

Hi Ben

As I see it you are adapting the trombone to the player which is a fine-tuning-thing that has been going on for a long time in U.S. but still is a new thing to us here. It is the extension of what we are doing.

We have no serious manufacturing of trombones over here. There has been some brass instruments made by Lars Gerdt but that is mostly trumpets. We have only the choice to adopt ourselves to your trombones (U.S. made most of them), or buy a lot of them and see if someone fits or buy a modular trombone that has been made to fit another player which is a high quality horn but is not in line with the idea, because as you said you need to see and hear the player to be able to fine-tune it.

What about getting in contact with a shop in Sweden, in Stockholm to let us try this.

Annonce in good time that you are coming. Send some trombones, parts and experts on modularity and adapting-strategies over to us. Stay a few days and maybe sell a couple of horns, and get a couple of orders of others to be build. I'm sure a lot of pros and semi-pros would turn up at a meeting like that with you in person.

In fact I do think most pro players in Stockholm would be concerned of not missing a meeting like that. I do think they would come from the other big cities here too.

If you are interested. Get in contact with "Brass specialisten" in Stockholm. Lasse Westergren is the owner and also plays the bass trombone at the Royal Opera house. He is a great guy. Maybe he will be interested in arranging a meeting like that.

Or you could get in contact with "Windcorp" that is the other shop of importance. They are larger but specialices on all wind instruments. They have shops in the three largest cities in Sweden and the shops already work together. You could do a small tour and visit all the three shops. They like to try new things. That's were I bought my Schilke ST20 and also my Kanstul 1662. I also played a Chinese alto trombone in their shop. They also have their own music school going on. I like their concept. Some of the workers are personal friends of mine. Great guys too!

I'm sure some pro players of ours have been over to you to see for them selves bust most have not.

Is this something you would consider to initiate?

/Tom

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:33 am

Quote from: watermailonman on Jul 24, 2014, 07:23AMHi Ben

As I see it you are adapting the trombone to the player which is a fine-tuning-thing that has been going on for a long time in U.S. but still is a new thing to us here. It is the extension of what we are doing.

We have no serious manufacturing of trombones over here. There has been some brass instruments made by Lars Gerdt but that is mostly trumpets. We have only the choice to adopt ourselves to your trombones (U.S. made most of them), or buy a lot of them and see if someone fits or buy a modular trombone that has been made to fit another player which is a high quality horn but is not in line with the idea, because as you said you need to see and hear the player to be able to fine-tune it.

What about getting in contact with a shop in Sweden, in Stockholm to let us try this.

Annonce in good time that you are coming. Send some trombones, parts and experts on modularity and adapting-strategies over to us. Stay a few days and maybe sell a couple of horns, and get a couple of orders of others to be build. I'm sure a lot of pros and semi-pros would turn up at a meeting like that with you in person.

In fact I do think most pro players in Stockholm would be concerned of not missing a meeting like that. I do think they would come from the other big cities here too.

If you are interested. Get in contact with "Brass specialisten" in Stockholm. Lasse Westergren is the owner and also plays the bass trombone at the Royal Opera house. He is a great guy. Maybe he will be interested in arranging a meeting like that.

Or you could get in contact with "Windcorp" that is the other shop of importance. They are larger but specialices on all wind instruments. They have shops in the three largest cities in Sweden and the shops already work together. You could do a small tour and visit all the three shops. They like to try new things. That's were I bought my Schilke ST20 and also my Kanstul 1662. I also played a Chinese alto trombone in their shop. They also have their own music school going on. I like their concept. Some of the workers are personal friends of mine. Great guys too!

I'm sure some pro players of ours have been over to you to see for them selves bust most have not.

Is this something you would consider to initiate?

/Tom

Hello Tom,

Thanks for your note. We would, of course, love to travel anywhere and everywhere but schedules and finances dictate a lot about what we can do. I will pass the information along to the powers that be.

I should note that Brass Specialisten is one of our dealers; Lasse should be able to help you with whatever you need!

Lastly, many international customers will plan a trip to the United States to visit the factory or one of the trombone festivals to try and purchase an instrument. This often works extremely well, as you get the benefit of the complete factory stock and knowledge. When planned correctly, the cost of the flight and accommodations can be commensurate or even less that what one might pay in taxes on importing multiple components or instruments.

Ben

ttf_BassBoneFL · Post by **ttf_BassBoneFL** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:14 am

Quote from: tsmart on Jul 24, 2014, 05:58AMBen,
Has branching (having a dealer) in NC ever been considered/thought about?
Charlotte/Greensboro/Raleigh would be the busiest "music" areas... but Greensboro would be centralized in the State...

Just curious.

T.

Hi T

Hope you don't mind me chiming in.....

Newell Sheridan (Sheridan Brass) is a Shires dealer based in Birmingham AL. He keeps a variety of components on hand (almost as much as the factory) and if you can't come to him, he will come to you when he passes by on the way to/from and MusEd conference in the South. (esp if you can arrange a group to try stuff out) He's VERY knowledgeable in putting together horns for people.

He's done this several times in FL and has set up players in my orchestra, Sarasota Orchestra, Naples Phil, Orlando Phil and Disney with custom set-ups.

Can't hurt to ask him.....

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:22 pm

Mainly just want to test drive a few, and see what suits me.

Birmingham - 402 miles.
Charleston, SC (dealer there) - 272 miles.

If a NC dealer pops up, Greensboro & Charlotte are around 100 miles, and Raleigh 191 miles (I go to Raleigh often).

Wishful thinking, but maybe a Shires dealer in NC will happen sometime in the future.

T.

ttf_trombone addict · Post by **ttf_trombone addict** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:16 pm

Quote from: BassBoneFL on Jul 24, 2014, 10:14AMHi T

Hope you don't mind me chiming in.....

Newell Sheridan (Sheridan Brass) is a Shires dealer based in Birmingham AL. He keeps a variety of components on hand (almost as much as the factory) and if you can't come to him, he will come to you when he passes by on the way to/from and MusEd conference in the South. (esp if you can arrange a group to try stuff out) He's VERY knowledgeable in putting together horns for people.

He's done this several times in FL and has set up players in my orchestra, Sarasota Orchestra, Naples Phil, Orlando Phil and Disney with custom set-ups.

Can't hurt to ask him.....

Mr. Sheridan is not only knowledgeable about the product, but his customer service is stellar. He's a very patient and kind person who will help you find what suits you the best.

ttf_SilverBone · Post by **ttf_SilverBone** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:28 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Jul 24, 2014, 06:19AMWe are always interested in expanding our dealer network and are working toward that goal. Hoepfully you may see it somewhere close soon!

Ben

Here's a vote for Portland, OR. Palo Alto (nearest store) is pretty far away!

Heck, if I were younger, I'd apply to open the store myself.

ttf_NateR · Post by **ttf_NateR** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:47 am

Hi Ben,

Unless it's giving away proprietary secrets, I'm wondering what the T8 treatment is. I played a friend's bell recently which was stamped as a: TII 5YM T8. I loved it and am considering ordering one for myself. I'm just curious about what the T8 treatment is/ does to the bell. Any light you can shed on this?

Thanks!
Nate

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:16 pm

Quote from: NateR on Aug 03, 2014, 06:47AMHi Ben,

Unless it's giving away proprietary secrets, I'm wondering what the T8 treatment is. I played a friend's bell recently which was stamped as a: TII 5YM T8. I loved it and am considering ordering one for myself. I'm just curious about what the T8 treatment is/ does to the bell. Any light you can shed on this?

Thanks!
Nate

A a way that we thin toward the flare, but not as much as a T7 treatment. It works very well with medium weight bells. Scott Hartman is playing the same type of bell you tried.

-Ben

ttf_Langheck · Post by **ttf_Langheck** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:24 pm

On a similar note (Eb?), what does the TB treatment do to the sound or feel, there is a bell I am considering buying and I was wondering what is was.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:23 pm

Quote from: Langheck on Aug 03, 2014, 06:24PMOn a similar note (Eb?), what does the TB treatment do to the sound or feel, there is a bell I am considering buying and I was wondering what is was.

TB s a custom order only. The main difference is in articulations, which seem to be a bit "bouncier" and not quite as pointed

Ben

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:26 am

Since we are talking about treatments here, is there one that gives the bell more of a "powerful" sound and making it lean darker?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:03 am

Quote from: LowBrassKing on Aug 04, 2014, 03:26AMSince we are talking about treatments here, is there one that gives the bell more of a "powerful" sound and making it lean darker?

These are two different characteristics, in my mind: "Power", which can mean a lot of different things, and "darker" which to me means more low overtones in the sound and less high overtones in the sound.

Usually we can achieve these things through our normal bells without any special treatments. Its just a matter of picking the right one.

-Ben

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:12 am

Quote from: griffinben on Aug 04, 2014, 06:03AMUsually we can achieve these things through our normal bells without any special treatments. Its just a matter of picking the right one.

Any suggestions for tenor and bass?

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:31 am

Ben, I just sent you an e-mail asking this, but I figure the answer may be pertinent to others, so I'll ask it here as well:

I tried the Ralph Sauer horn at ITF this year and loved it. I think it had whatever the default dual bore slide is... T2547GLW maybe? In any case, I was wondering what crook goes on the slide. Is it sized for the medium bore leg, or the large bore leg?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:49 am

Quote from: Matt K on Aug 05, 2014, 07:31AMBen, I just sent you an e-mail asking this, but I figure the answer may be pertinent to others, so I'll ask it here as well:

I tried the Ralph Sauer horn at ITF this year and loved it. I think it had whatever the default dual bore slide is... T2547GLW maybe? In any case, I was wondering what crook goes on the slide. Is it sized for the medium bore leg, or the large bore leg?

If it was the standard slide, it would have been a T25/47. But that bell had many different slides matched to it throughout the course of the weekend, so it may have been something different.

Regarding the slide crook...I'm not going to comment on public record about that at this time.

Ben

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:16 am

Quote from: griffinben on Aug 05, 2014, 07:49AMIf it was the standard slide, it would have been a T25/47. But that bell had many different slides matched to it throughout the course of the weekend, so it may have been something different.

Regarding the slide crook...I'm not going to comment on public record about that at this time.

Ben

I totally understand!

ttf_tombone21 · Post by **ttf_tombone21** » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:39 pm

I just saw a leadpipe that is only marked ML. What does this mean?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:52 am

Quote from: LowBrassKing on Aug 04, 2014, 06:12AMAny suggestions for tenor and bass?

This is a great question, not because I can answer it but why I can't answer it.

I couldn't possibly say without having a basis of comparison.

While we know how to change parts of the instrument to effect the way an instrument plays in a fairly consistent manner, we cannot account for the biggest variable: the player.

Their physical make-up, their playing level, their aesthetic goals, how they define words like "dark", "core", "Projection...all of these things are personal and will lend different combinations to recommend themselves. I can put the exact same instrument in two different players hands and they might sound radically different.

So while I know that I can get certain results with "standard" Shires components I cannot say what those parts should be until I can either hear the player in person or they can provide me with some A-B-C comparisons. (FWIW, in person is ALWAYS preferred).

I hope that makes sense.

Ben

Ben

ttf_norbie2009 · Post by **ttf_norbie2009** » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:54 am

Is there precedence for Yamaha Xeno Ysl 882O players ordering dual bore (.525/.547) slides for their instruments? Straight.525 bore slides? If so, what has been the feedback?

Thanks.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:23 am

Quote from: griffinben on Aug 06, 2014, 05:52AMThis is a great question, not because I can answer it but why I can't answer it.

I couldn't possibly say without having a basis of comparison.

While we know how to change parts of the instrument to effect the way an instrument plays in a fairly consistent manner, we cannot account for the biggest variable: the player.

Their physical make-up, their playing level, their aesthetic goals, how they define words like "dark", "core", "Projection...all of these things are personal and will lend different combinations to recommend themselves. I can put the exact same instrument in two different players hands and they might sound radically different.

So while I know that I can get certain results with "standard" Shires components I cannot say what those parts should be until I can either hear the player in person or they can provide me with some A-B-C comparisons. (FWIW, in person is ALWAYS preferred).

I hope that makes sense.

Ben

Ben

You never cease to amaze Ben!

I guess I'll get that answer when I reach that point.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:57 pm

Quote from: norbie2009 on Aug 06, 2014, 08:54AMIs there precedence for Yamaha Xeno Ysl 882O players ordering dual bore (.525/.547) slides for their instruments? Straight.525 bore slides? If so, what has been the feedback?

Thanks.

I am not personally aware of anyone doing this. If they have I'd love to know what they think of it!

Ben

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:06 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Aug 06, 2014, 05:52AMThis is a great question, not because I can answer it but why I can't answer it.

I couldn't possibly say without having a basis of comparison.

While we know how to change parts of the instrument to effect the way an instrument plays in a fairly consistent manner, we cannot account for the biggest variable: the player.

Their physical make-up, their playing level, their aesthetic goals, how they define words like "dark", "core", "Projection...all of these things are personal and will lend different combinations to recommend themselves. I can put the exact same instrument in two different players hands and they might sound radically different.

So while I know that I can get certain results with "standard" Shires components I cannot say what those parts should be until I can either hear the player in person or they can provide me with some A-B-C comparisons. (FWIW, in person is ALWAYS preferred).

I hope that makes sense.

Ben

Ben

On 5 horns' worth of personal experience...5 horns that probably necessitated 10 or 12 visits to the factory plus I don't know how many hours in the practice room, experimenting on gigs and rehearsals and being at the Shires table for several conventions:

What he said.

S.

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:02 pm

Yes, I'll agree with Ben too...

but...

I will say that many people long for a simpler time when there was really just one, possibly 2 or 3 answers to what would be a good trombone to buy if you wanted to do X as a trombone player.

If X = sound like Dorsey or Urbie Green, buy a King 2B
If X = sound like J.J. Johnson, buy a 3B (I know, it wasn't that simple)
If X = sound like Fontana or Watrous, buy a Bach 12 or 16
If X = sound like Rosolino, buy a Conn 6H

If X = play in an orchestra...in the 50s and 60s you bought a Conn. In the 70s, 80s and will into the 90s you bought a Bach. There were a few people playing Holtons throughout, but honestly not that many.

Now it's all complicated.

So...if you want a simple answer from Shires for a down-the-middle, mainstream orchestral instrument in 2014, I can tell you what that is:

Tenor: 7YLW bell, TW47 slide, Axial valve
Bass: BII 7YM bell, B62 slide, Axial valves

Good luck! The problem is, maybe that works great for you, and maybe it doesn't. Bachs certainly didn't work great for everyone in the 80s and 90s. I was there, and I remember that there were people who just couldn't manage to sound good on them. Many of those people CAN sound good on other instruments now, chosen for them from Shires, Edwards, Rath, etc.

The above are decidedly not vanilla instruments with no character, but they are also not instruments that will just sound good no matter what you blow into them. There are other things we can do for you at Shires (and Edwards and Rath, I'm sure) that will help you make a pleasing sound if you can't quite do that consistently from your end yet.

Also, there are great players who don't choose to play those combinations because they have a different sound and feel in mind.

I haven't made it any less complicated, have I...

ttf_JimR · Post by **ttf_JimR** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:16 pm

Ben
Can you compare your thoughts regarding the similarities/differences between a 1YLW and a 1YT7 bell? Is the response similar?

Are they more alike then different?

Thanks
Jim

ttf_Orestes · Post by **ttf_Orestes** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:29 pm

Have you guys noticed patterns in differentiating originals from copies of your horns?

I.e, do guys looking for an improved 88H typically end up with a yellow C tuning slide, or guys looking for an improved Bach 50B usually end up with a gold brass tuning slide, etc.,.

Also, do you guys have any vague theories about selecting a leadpipe during a fitting, or is it simply start with what they use and try until satisfied?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:41 am

Quote from: JimR on Aug 07, 2014, 02:16PMBen
Can you compare your thoughts regarding the similarities/differences between a 1YLW and a 1YT7 bell? Is the response similar?

Are they more alike then different?

Thanks
Jim

This is a great question.

What we are comparing is a relatively heavy bell that is lighter toward the edge with a bell that is generally light as a whole.

Both are type 1 bells in yellow brass, so there are many general qualities that are the same. Both slot very well, have excellent projection and clean articulations. They have a stronger personality that a similar weight type 7 bell.

The difference are that the 1YT7 will probably have a much stronger pitch and timbre center that will probably be harder to color in different directions than the 1YLW. The response will be good but it will very much be of a certain flavor and it should have excellent stability at loud dynamics. The timbre will be more stable throughout the dynamic range as well. It may be more difficult to achieve a lush sound at soft dynamics.

The 1YLW will have a quicker timbral response, meaning you can more easily change the col.or within the shape of a note, from articulation to release. You would probably be able to more easily color it as well as be able to have better, more lush response at soft dynamics. It will still project but the color of the sound will most likely become more brilliant as you progress through from soft to loud.

These comments are based on all things being equal and only as a comparison to each other. One's mileage may vary based on how the rest of the horn is set up, mouthpiece choice, and a person's particular playing tendencies.

I hope that helps!

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:50 am

Quote from: CRWV1987 on Aug 07, 2014, 03:29PMHave you guys noticed patterns in differentiating originals from copies of your horns?

I.e, do guys looking for an improved 88H typically end up with a yellow C tuning slide, or guys looking for an improved Bach 50B usually end up with a gold brass tuning slide, etc.,.

Also, do you guys have any vague theories about selecting a leadpipe during a fitting, or is it simply start with what they use and try until satisfied?

There are some general things that occur, but only very general.

88H guys run the gamut. If they actually do want an improved 88H (most wind up with something different) they do geenrally wind up with a red or gold brass bell, but not always a 2RVE. They like a lot of different slides, from the TW47 to the T47 in yellow or gold brass, and/or standard or lightweight. Tuning slides, they sometimes really like the TYS, which feels like (to me) the old vintage 88H slides with a plate on it.

42 folk will often wind up on a TB47 or TB47YC slide, but many wind up with a plain ole TW47. The split between TII and TI bells is about 60/40 with them as well.

Bass trombone I've found to be a highly personal thing, based not only on how much variance there is between configurations of single models from other manufacturer's but the variance between (supposedly) exact same models. The only consistent tendency I've found is to a BII bell and a B62 slide.

I always make leadpipe choice a part of the appointment process. My first goal working with a player is to find a horn that feels comfortable for them to play and work from there. For some the leadpipe is a fine tuning mechanism, for others it is of primary importance. When I work with a person I'll listen, get the player's feedback, and try a couple of things before deciding wherein the process we should start changing pipes.

I hope that helps!

Ben

ttf_tbarh · Post by **ttf_tbarh** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:04 am

Are B 1 bass bell out of vogue or out of commission? Dont seem to spot any mention of them nowadays.. When i attended the ITF 2009 in Denmark i much prefered the B1 bells.. More direct response, without any downsides. Less"diesel " more "life" .to the tone..

Trond

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:40 am

Quote from: tbarh on Aug 08, 2014, 07:04AMAre B 1 bass bell out of vogue or out of commission? Dont seem to spot any mention of them nowadays.. When i attended the ITF 2009 in Denmark i much prefered the B1 bells.. More direct response, without any downsides. Less"diesel " more "life" .to the tone..

Trond

BI bells are definitely still around,we make them quite often.

Ben

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:50 am

Ben, in another thread you mentioned you were playing smaller horns with F attachments for a lot of your playing. Your site has other artists' horns listed, but not yours! I'd love to know what equipment you play and why! You have such a unique opportunity as a professional performer and employee at a company like Shires, you may perhaps have the most well informed equipment choices of any person alive!

ttf_JimR · Post by **ttf_JimR** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:27 am

Quote from: griffinben on Aug 08, 2014, 06:41AMWhat we are comparing is a relatively heavy bell that is lighter toward the edge with a bell that is generally light as a whole.

Both are type 1 bells in yellow brass, so there are many general qualities that are the same. Both slot very well, have excellent projection and clean articulations. They have a stronger personality that a similar weight type 7 bell.

The difference are that the 1YT7 will probably have a much stronger pitch and timbre center that will probably be harder to color in different directions than the 1YLW. The response will be good but it will very much be of a certain flavor and it should have excellent stability at loud dynamics. The timbre will be more stable throughout the dynamic range as well. It may be more difficult to achieve a lush sound at soft dynamics.

The 1YLW will have a quicker timbral response, meaning you can more easily change the col.or within the shape of a note, from articulation to release. You would probably be able to more easily color it as well as be able to have better, more lush response at soft dynamics. It will still project but the color of the sound will most likely become more brilliant as you progress through from soft to loud.

These comments are based on all things being equal and only as a comparison to each other. One's mileage may vary based on how the rest of the horn is set up, mouthpiece choice, and a person's particular playing tendencies.

Ben

Thanks Ben. Appreciate your insight. What got me thinking about this was that when I received the 1YM8 bell it was noticeably heavier (in actual weight) then the 1YT7 which got me thinking that the T7 treatment was a fairly aggressive thinning of the bell flare.

Cheers
Jim

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:09 am

Quote from: Matt K on Aug 08, 2014, 07:50AM You have such a unique opportunity as a professional performer and employee at a company like Shires, you may perhaps have the most well informed equipment choices of any person alive!

Amen!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:46 am

Matt K Shires website does have something about Ben!

Small Bore - S2YLW 75 - T85G
Tenor - TII 5YM - Dual Bore Rotar - T47
Bass - BI 2R - Rotar - B62N

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:49 am

For my 3rd reply in a row (

) I have a question.

What does the "L" specify at the end of a slide marking? (B62L)
What sound does it have in general?

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:13 pm

L means long slide.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:33 pm

Ok, that is what I figured.
What is the difference physically and in sound?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:27 pm

Found the answer on this thread. So many things are answered I can't keep it straight!

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:20 pm

Quote from: JimR on Aug 08, 2014, 08:27AMThanks Ben. Appreciate your insight. What got me thinking about this was that when I received the 1YM8 bell it was noticeably heavier (in actual weight) then the 1YT7 which got me thinking that the T7 treatment was a fairly aggressive thinning of the bell flare.

Cheers
Jim

It was probably more of a difference between those two individual bells. They are hand made, and we've been making type 1 bells for nearly 20 years now, so there is some variance.

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:57 pm

Quote from: Matt K on Aug 08, 2014, 07:50AMBen, in another thread you mentioned you were playing smaller horns with F attachments for a lot of your playing. Your site has other artists' horns listed, but not yours! I'd love to know what equipment you play and why! You have such a unique opportunity as a professional performer and employee at a company like Shires, you may perhaps have the most well informed equipment choices of any person alive!

I have played a lot of things I might not be quick to recommend to other people because I want to see how they perform "in field", if you will. I also have sold or traded parts of my personal horns so that customers could walk away with a set-up that really worked for them.

This said, my current set-ups are fairly mainstream for a freelancer that does mainly jazz/commercial work with moments of classical/orchestral work thrown in (to upset the balance). Some have individual quirks that are not easily explained... I'm quick to volunteer my own horns as test mules....but the basics are in place.

Large Bore: 7YLW, TG, Tru-Bore, TW47
Medium bore: 1YM 8, TYS, Dual Bore rotor, T25NLW
Small bore (work horse): S7YLW 7.75, SY1.0, rotary valve, T00-08NLW
Small bore (lead/dixieland, currently needs refurbishing): S2YLWT7, SY1.0, T85G
Bass: BI 7YM 9, BYB, inline rotors, B62N

I have a few extra parts around...leadpipes and tuning slides mainly, that I use to tweak the above set-ups to my specific needs (mouthpiece choice makes a huge difference too, but that's another story).

The medium and large bore set-ups interchange nicely. I'm currently playing a show that needs a lot of low-ish bottom end at loud dynamics but lots of singing low dynamics in the middle-high register thrown in, so I'm using the T25NLW slide with MT RS leadpipe (large shank) with the big horn bell and valve. These are the times that being modular is a blessing.

I have a wish list, of course. But working in my setting lends itself to flights of fancy.

But at the end of the day, my needs are my needs, and not necessarily those of the player that walks in the door on any given day. In other words, my needs and aesthetic goals as an artist (outside of Shires) belong solely to me, and I am loathe to impose them on anyone else.

I'm fortunate enough to also hear and work with a wide variety musicians on a regular basis (up close) and talk to them about their needs, wishes and reactions on a regular basis. All of this gets thrown in the mix of what helps guide you to the right horn for you.

In other words, those are the horns that work for me. But I am more curious about what works for YOU.

Ben

ttf_choski55 · Post by **ttf_choski55** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:59 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Aug 08, 2014, 08:57PM
Small bore (work horse): S7YLW 7.75, SY1.0, rotary valve, T00-08NLW

Hey Ben,

Your workhorse horn intrigues me as I've been looking for something similar. How is that particular valve section different from the ones used for the larger setups (ie T25-T47 with 8-8.5" bells)? Does Shires make a valve section for small bore setups that can also be converted to a straight section when needed? (with .500, .508 or .525 slides)

Thanks for sharing your setups and for the insight you always provide.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:16 am

Quote from: choski55 on Aug 10, 2014, 11:59PMHey Ben,

Your workhorse horn intrigues me as I've been looking for something similar. How is that particular valve section different from the ones used for the larger setups (ie T25-T47 with 8-8.5" bells)? Does Shires make a valve section for small bore setups that can also be converted to a straight section when needed? (with .500, .508 or .525 slides)

Thanks for sharing your setups and for the insight you always provide.

The valve section use don small bores (about 6 or 7 exist in the world...) is a smaller, conventional rotor. Very different than the one we use on our medium and large bore trombones. It is the same style wrap, but the proportions are different due to the different spacing of small bore bells.

We can make a valve section and neckpipe modular for your use. But after playing a couple of these, I do think having the valve section hard mounted to the bell makes for a more responsive horn and a more open valve. I've done a lot of experimenting with my own modular horn and will be converting it to hard mounting when I can spare the time.

Our small bores are not compatible with our medium bore instruments. The medium bore instruments are directly compatible with our large bore instruments; the bell, tuning slides, and valve are all the same options. We've done some experiments with medium bore slides on our small bore bells and they don't work well enough for us to get behind. (We also don't get enough request for that). We can usually satisfy one's wants for this with our standard options.

I hope that helps.

Ben

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:47 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Aug 11, 2014, 11:16AM
We can make a valve section and neckpipe modular for your use. But after playing a couple of these, I do think having the valve section hard mounted to the bell makes for a more responsive horn and a more open valve. I've done a lot of experimenting with my own modular horn and will be converting it to hard mounting when I can spare the time.

Is the same true for large bore horns?