TromboneChat

Quote from: lingon on Apr 23, 2009, 04:17PMYes I heard that there was some trouble with shipping to the US. Things are a bit complicated in this country, especially now with the EU...

About your 8, actually you bought it from the 2nd owner which is a nice big band guy in Malmo. Jorgen was the original owner. And it was Jorgen and exactly this horn that gave me the impulse to get my 9s. This 8 is as you said fantastic. Does it still has the removable lead pipes?

BTW, you may have mentioned it earlier in the thread, but is it a series 1xxx or 3xxx horn? And I don't remember the details, does it have the single or dual radius slide crook?


I actually bought it from Jorgen. It was he who called me, and I sent the $$ to. I dont know anything about another owner. Unless someone else used his name??? Yes it still has the removable pipes. I have original Bert Herrick pipes, for 4's 6's 8's, that I sent to John Duda in Tulsa OK for him to copy. SO if you are interested in the Herrick pipes John is making them. He copied the #1, 2, and 3. He also has the 2 styles that Earl used from the factory.

Jorgen and I solved the shipping issue, by using the postal service. It was about $145.00US to send insured through the postal service. I have a FedEx account I used to use for business, and they wanted around $450.00.

It is a 3xxx serial number on that horn. I put a myspsce page together that kind of explains the serial number system and some other things I learned over the years. Check it out if you want to. www.myspace.com/williamstrombones The horn I have has round crooks. That was a kind of signature of Bob's. He did not like the square crooks for some reason. He also used nickel crooks on the hand slide, where Earl used brass crooks. After Earls death all of Bob's horns were using the 3xxx series of numbers. He and Earl did have some issues from time to time so he built earlier horns with the 3xxx number series. He built great horns like his dad did. Bob did not have the ability to tweak a horn like Earl did though.

I just finished putting together the 2 model 10's I have. What a dream to play. Great big dark sound and they will bite and bark if you want them to. I have not touched a bass bone in 30 years so this has been fun! I had enough parts to get them both back to original shape. Some of my stuff and John Duda helped tremendously. I cant say enough about him, he is just a good guy all around.

What about getting some pictures and history of the Williams in your area to put up a website about Earl and his horns? I have been gathering information for about 5 or 6 years now to do just that!

Quote from: bachbone on Apr 22, 2009, 07:41PMCalicchio has one more "Williams" 6 for sale $2400 for the puppy.  The last one that will be made in a really long time.  I had a very lengthy conversation with the gentleman who owns the company and he doesn't see a good future for the Trombones. 

It sounds as if the company is switching hands again due to a break in a family.  The gentleman I spoke with told me that he found a lot of Earl's tricks, that others will have to figure out by themselves.  Wish I could buy the last 6, but I really need to focus on college and focus my money spending there. 

Whoever gets it will be lucky.  The last one built to specs to the original Williams.
i got quoted $2,895 from Calicchio soon after you posted this. i passed.

Quote from: Bach42BOS on Apr 25, 2009, 01:14AMi got quoted $2,895 from Calicchio soon after you posted this. i passed.

Really?  Very weird...  Maybe he was just doing me a favor.  IDK

Businessmen work in mysterious ways.

Quote from: Bach42BOS on Apr 25, 2009, 01:14AMi got quoted $2,895 from Calicchio soon after you posted this. i passed.

I told a friend about it so he called and bought it for $2,895.  He's been looking for a new trombone because, frankly, his 2B is really stuffy and unresponsive.  I've been trying to get him to send the 2B to somebody but he didn't want to put any money into it.  So now he has a Williams 6.   

Maybe I should buy his 2B and get it fixed up!     No no no no...  I already have all the horns I want.     Well, almost...   

Nice!  You should have paid me $2895 and I would have bought it for you.  Just joking.

Make sure that you tell us how it plays.  The fellow says that they play better than the Burbank horns.  I would never know.

Quote from: bachbone on Apr 25, 2009, 04:24PM
Make sure that you tell us how it plays.  The fellow says that they play better than the Burbank horns.  I would never know.

Right!  I'm really anxious to find out how it compares to mine. Report to follow...   

Im sure it plays great. My high Bb in first on my tulsa is pretty flat. They are great horns though.

Quote from: jazztrbn77 on Apr 25, 2009, 08:24PMIm sure it plays great. My high Bb in first on my tulsa is pretty flat. They are great horns though.

Hows it compare with your shires .500 bore?  any similer?  feeling?

My Shires is really in tune and has more of a focused sound. It has a really a "pretty sound". The shires slides are the best I have ever felt and the horn is a tad brighter. The shires hand grip is a little uncomfortable for me though. I wish I could have a williams style grip on the shires, it would be a perfect horn then. 

The Williams is much more comfortable to hold, I have never played one that matches in comfort then a williams. It has a much darker sound and the notes seem to feel squishy as opposed to focused when you play it. It is harder to play in tune on this horn. But if you can do it , it is worth it. The sound of a williams is very unique. It can change colors very well.

I love them both equally for different reasons.

I had a phone call yesterday from Stig “Stickan” Lindwall the original owner of  Birka Musik in Stockholm, we had a long talk about music musicians and trombones.
He imported the Williams from Earl, the first (my horn) arrived 1974.
He got two more the same year and had the picture of the “Williams New Perfection” in the shop window with the trio (me, Torgny Nilsson first call studio lead bone, Jörgen Johansson solo trombone Swedish Radio Symph. Orch.) for years.
The plan was to have a longer co-work with Earl selling the horns in Sweden. That did not happen, the horns stopped to come in late 75 or early 76.
Knut Johansson (owner of Johansson Musik in Malmö) was a friend of Stickan, Johansson Musik did never import Williams trombones from Earl.
Stickan said “if there ever was so many as 10 Williams trombone in Sweden it would have been known all over the trombone society in Sweden.

Well that was the end of that rumour.

QuoteThe sound of a williams is very unique. It can change colors very well.
The sound is unique. I do not remember that it was easy to change compared to Old’s, Holton, Conn, Bach, King, Benge or Kanstul trombones.
For me (and the other owners too) the problem with the horn was that the unique sound made it difficult to blend some times.
I was the one who sold my horn first (man, the horns was a loudspeaker!) I was relived when Torgny went back to King and Bach, he always stuck out like a sore thumb with the Williams.
I was working together with him several times a week at that time.

One of my colleagues play a “Williams replica” , a Kanstul, a very fine horn, I believe that horn is just as good as the original.

I am sorry if stepped on anybody’s toe.
 

Quote from: svenlarsson on May 14, 2009, 02:14AM
The sound is unique. I do not remember that it was easy to change compared to Old’s, Holton, Conn, Bach, King, Benge or Kanstul trombones.
For me (and the other owners too) the problem with the horn was that the unique sound made it difficult to blend some times.
I was the one who sold my horn first (man, the horns was a loudspeaker!) I was relived when Torgny went back to King and Bach, he always stuck out like a sore thumb with the Williams...

One of my colleagues play a “Williams replica” , a Kanstul, a very fine horn, I believe that horn is just as good as the original.


Hi Svenne.  In your opinion, is the sound of the Kanstul "Williams replica" easier to change and blend than the original Williams?  I don't plan to run out to buy one but I'm curious.

Oh yes, I just played together with the Kanstul horn in question one hour ago, it blends easy with any combination of horns.
Still the real Williams are fantastic horns.By chanse I listened to another record yesterday from 1974 where I played on the Williams bass, Every note was clearly heard even the very soft ones. A pedal Db really sounded fat. I was kind of impressed on my own sound! But still, it is bigger then what I wont.

Quote from: svenlarsson on May 15, 2009, 10:46AMOh yes, I just played together with the Kanstul horn in question one hour ago, it blends easy with any combination of horns.
Still the real Williams are fantastic horns.By chanse I listened to another record yesterday from 1974 where I played on the Williams bass, Every note was clearly heard even the very soft ones. A pedal Db really sounded fat. I was kind of impressed on my own sound! But still, it is bigger then what I wont.

Thanks for the response.  It's good information to have.  I'll just keep on playing my 6 like I have been for over 30 years.  Maybe I'll get into playing bass bone one of these days and I'll have to find a 10.    

I wish I could hear your recording.

Aloha from Maui   

Sven,

Great info on the earlier post. Can't imagine whos toes you could step on with that. Anything factual about Earl we can learn is Fantastic! I have always marveled at how a little guy in Burbank Ca got horns around the world. I know of horns in England, Russia, New Zealand, Italy, France, Germany, of course where you guys are, and Australia. It is amazing where they went.

Earl died in 1976 so that was shortly after he began sending horns your way. Then Bob, his son, passed in 1979. So not enough time to get many over there.

Lingon mentioned a 2nd owner of the 8 I bought from Jorgen. I know nothing of that at all. If you remember you had a freind look at it for me. And Johansson would not deal long distance. When I got the phone call it was from Jorgen. Who is the mysteries other owner???

I would love to have some pictures of the 10 you had and sold. What was the serial number when was it bought etc... I have gathered info for about 15 years now and am getting close to maybe a website on Williams horns. So anything I can learn is greatly appreciated!

j

wow!! i had no idea that you've been collecting info for 15 years!! that's great! if you ever need help with that website, lmk!

Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Apr 25, 2009, 04:13PMI told a friend about it so he called and bought it for $2,895.  He's been looking for a new trombone because, frankly, his 2B is really stuffy and unresponsive.  I've been trying to get him to send the 2B to somebody but he didn't want to put any money into it.  So now he has a Williams 6.  


Last night I got to play my friend's Calicchio Williams 6 for about 30 minutes, apparently the last one that Calicchio had in the shop.  I was really well warmed up and gave it a thorough going over and I have to say that I was extremely impressed!  It was maybe slightly more responsive than my Burbank 6, very open all up and down the range, beautiful Williams sound, notes in all ranges just popped out with no trouble at all.  Wow!!!  I told my friend that if he ever decided to sell the horn I would buy it.   

What a pity that Calicchio stopped making Williams trombones.   

They have not stopped. Just a temporary hiatus. Send a deposit you will get a horn....

Quote from: jnoxon on May 23, 2009, 09:29PMThey have not stopped. Just a temporary hiatus. Send a deposit you will get a horn....

That is a secret.  Don't tell anyone even though this is on a worldwide forum...

if john is telling people i doubt its a secret

Money talks BS walks.... No Secret

Quote from: jnoxon on May 23, 2009, 09:29PMThey have not stopped. Just a temporary hiatus. Send a deposit you will get a horn....

Hey!  Wow!!!  That's great news!!!   

are you guys still in tulsa?

Z

Quote from: Exzaclee on May 24, 2009, 11:34PMare you guys still in tulsa?

Z

Yes, I'm sure that Calicchio is still in Tulsa.

Quote from: Exzaclee on May 24, 2009, 11:34PMare you guys still in tulsa?John is in the high desert of California, but Calicchio is still in Tulsa, OK, as far as I've heard.

Quote from: jnoxon on May 23, 2009, 09:29PMThey have not stopped. Just a temporary hiatus. Send a deposit you will get a horn....

Hmmmm...

Carol Dalton owns Williams Trombones.  John Duda (Callichio) made the bells for the last Williams trombones. (he also made some slides at the end - with mixed results)

Did John Duda (owner of Callichio) purchase Williams from Carol Dalton?

If not...

How can John Duda legally make a trombone and call it a Williams?

Hmmmmm...

Quote from: Koz on May 25, 2009, 04:38AMHmmmm...

Carol Dalton owns Williams Trombones.  John Duda (Callichio) made the bells for the last Williams trombones. (he also made some slides at the end - with mixed results)

Did John Duda (owner of Callichio) purchase Williams from Carol Dalton?

If not...

How can John Duda legally make a trombone and call it a Williams?

Hmmmmm...

They can't stamp it with "Williams" anymore because they don't own the company name.  Something happened with a family breakup making the name split down the wrong road. 

The bells are stamped Callichio now.  Carol Dalton's wife owns the Williams name now if I remember it right.

Quote from: bachbone on May 25, 2009, 05:59AMThey can't stamp it with "Williams" anymore because they don't own the company name.  Something happened with a family breakup making the name split down the wrong road. 
The bells are stamped Callichio now.  Carol Dalton's wife owns the Williams name now if I remember it right.

...Ya needs to get your facts straight.

Carol Dalton is/was Bart Dalton's wife. (Carol Dalton does not have a wife)Bart Dalton put The Williams Trombone Company in Carol's name. (read between the lines here)

So...

If John Duda (Callichio) makes a trombone, it can not be a Williams. 

Anyone would be better off buying a Kanstul 1606.

Quote from: Koz on May 25, 2009, 07:20AM
...Ya needs to get your facts straight.

Carol Dalton is/was Bart Dalton's wife. (Carol Dalton does not have a wife)Bart Dalton put The Williams Trombone Company in Carol's name. (read between the lines here)

So...

If John Duda (Callichio) makes a trombone, it can not be a Williams. 

Anyone would be better off buying a Kanstul 1606.



You are right there, stupid mistake on my end.  I stand corrected.

John Duba has lots of experience with the tooling and finding out exactly what Earl did with the trombones.  He told me: "I am not telling anyone what I found out.  They will have to find it out the hard way."  Just because John doesn't have the Williams name anymore doesn't mean that the brand is automatically bad.

I will be curious to play some of these new Williams-style instruments. I have played many, from the Tennessee horn that I bought to back up my own fine Earl Williams 6...I went to the shop to check them out and chose the one that I liked best...through some of the early Callicchios and a few Kanstuls. None of them felt to me to be in the same class as my Earl, but I sort of discounted that feeling because I knew that horn so well, had gold and silver plated it so that to my ears it was even better than when I got it and as time passes without it (I sold it after I got my Shires .500 maybe 6 or 7 years ago) I figured that I might simply be gilding the lily of fond remembrance.

Then Isrea Butler bought an Earl 6 this year and showed up at a gig with it. I only had to play about 6 notes on the horn before I realized that I had indeed not been gilding any lilies, that it was a another magnificent, A++ instrument, one of maybe 6 Earl horns of all sizes that I have played that were simply memorable instruments. Make that 10 or so including several Wallace-Williams horns that were just as good although different in blow and sound to some degree. A little more... steely, a little less mellow. But strong???!!! Fuggedaboudit!!!

Now this does not mean that the recent Duda horns are not in that class. People learn things and products do improve. But the Calicchio "Williams" horns that I played several years ago were not good at all. Stuffy, with truly recalcitrant slides.

The saga continues...

S.

Quote from: sabutin on May 25, 2009, 08:02AM
snip...

But the Calicchio "Williams" horns that I played several years ago were not good at all. Stuffy, with truly recalcitrant slides.
The saga continues...
S.
Sam, I agree.

One of the prototypes of the Bart/Carol Dalton and John Duda produced Williams made the rounds here in Chicago a few  years ago. The prototype was a fantastic blowing horn. Very much the equal of the two Williams 6 trombones that I have owned. The prototype's bell was made by John Duda and the slide was made by Mike Corrigan using Shires tubes.

The production horns that showed up here in Chicago were really bad. They were nothing at all like the prototype. The slides were bad, the horns blew stuffy, they did not have the Williams sound or feel at all. Those horns were returned and were probably passed on to other unsuspecting buyers.

Quote from: Koz on May 25, 2009, 08:40AMSam, I agree.

One of the prototypes of the Bart/Carol Dalton and John Duda produced Williams made the rounds here in Chicago a few  years ago. The prototype was a fantastic blowing horn. Very much the equal of the two Williams 6 trombones that I have owned. The prototype's bell was made by John Duda and the slide was made by Mike Corrigan using Shires tubes.

The production horns that showed up here in Chicago were really bad. They were nothing at all like the prototype. The slides were bad, the horns blew stuffy, they did not have the Williams sound or feel at all. Those horns were returned and were probably passed on to other unsuspecting buyers.


As always...

Caveat emptor.

S.

Quote from: sabutin on May 25, 2009, 08:02AM... Then Isrea Butler bought an Earl 6 this year and showed up at a gig with it. I only had to play about 6 notes on the horn before I realized that I had indeed not been gilding any lilies, that it was a another magnificent, A++ instrument, one of maybe 6 Earl horns of all sizes that I have played that were simply memorable instruments. Make that 10 or so including several Wallace-Williams horns that were just as good although different in blow and sound to some degree. A little more... steely, a little less mellow. But strong???!!! Fuggedaboudit!!!

Now this does not mean that the recent Duda horns are not in that class. People learn things and products do improve. But the Calicchio "Williams" horns that I played several years ago were not good at all. Stuffy, with truly recalcitrant slides.


I understand that the Calicchio Williams 6 that my friend recently received was one of the last 6's that John Duda built and I thought it was a fabulous horn, complete with a first rate slide.  So it appears that John refined his trombone making skills somewhere along the line.  Considering how this horn compared to my Burbank 6, I would not hesitate a moment to order one from John if I ever found myself needing another 6.

I've been trying to keep track of the number of known Williams 10's that are still known to exist.  John Noxon said that a total of 12 were made.

- John initially (since I joined the forum) said that he knew of 7. 
- John Sandhagen restored 2 10's for John, so that brings the count up to 9.* 
- Sven Larsson had one in Sweden which he sold to his teacher who sold it to another trombonist, so that's 10. 
- John Sandhagen learned of another one owned by someone in California, so that's 11. 
- John Noxon told me that there's a 10 bell somewhere in Europe (I don't remember any details), so that's 11 1/2.

Now if the guy in Europe would sell me the 10 bell, I would ask John Sandhagen to build a horn around it to bring the count up to 12.   

Is that a good plan, or what?   

*I guess I'm assuming that the two 10's that John Sandhagen restored weren't a part of John Noxon's initial 7 count.

There was a 10 in London in the 1970's. It had Boosey valves put on it (sadly) and was owned by one of the Covent Garden guys for a while. It was considered a bit light and ended up with a semi pro big band player. Dunno where it is now.

Chris Stearn

Quote from: blast on May 31, 2009, 01:29PMThere was a 10 in London in the 1970's. It had Boosey valves put on it (sadly) and was owned by one of the Covent Garden guys for a while. It was considered a bit light and ended up with a semi pro big band player. Dunno where it is now.

Chris Stearn

Hey!  Wow!!!  Great information!!!  In wonder if it was included somewhere in John's count because, if not, it looks like we now have 12 1/2 10's.  Where did I go wrong?   

maybe that is the source of the european bell in the earlier count?

Quote from: Exzaclee on May 31, 2009, 02:06PMmaybe that is the source of the european bell in the earlier count?

I don't think so.  I believe that the European bell was sent there within the last 10 or 15 years.

I also know of a really nice 6 in the U.S. Not for sale, so I will say no more... I've seen it when it was in the U.K. for repair.
I will try to check up on that bass... I've seen pictures of it.

Chris Stearn

I have a lovely Donelson model 6 in superb original condition with no serial number.

Not for sale though..... Just saying

I was talking with a guy on the phone and he claims to have purchased a Williams 10 for $275 with a Mt. Vernon 5g and several other vintage accessories.  The kid wanted to buy something else with the money and didn't care what it was worth.

Kids these days!!! 

Quote from: blast on May 31, 2009, 02:40PM
I will try to check up on that bass... I've seen pictures of it.


That would be great!  And maybe you could get a serial number?   

Quote from: bachbone on May 31, 2009, 03:03PMI was talking with a guy on the phone and he claims to have purchased a Williams 10 for $275 with a Mt. Vernon 5g and several other vintage accessories.  The kid wanted to buy something else with the money and didn't care what it was worth.

Kids these days!!! 

That reminds me that I guy I knew gave his son his vintage Gibson guitar worth thousands of dollars for the son's graduation gift.  The son, without telling this guy, went out and sold the guitar for $75 so he could buy a surf board. 

Quote from: Richard Tadaki on May 31, 2009, 03:09PMThat reminds me that I guy I knew gave his son his vintage Gibson guitar worth thousands of dollars for the son's graduation gift.  The son, without telling this guy, went out and sold the guitar for $75 so he could buy a surf board. 

Oh geez.  I think the kid that sold the 10 wanted an Ipod.  Ridiculous!

Quote from: Richard Tadaki on May 31, 2009, 12:47PMI've been trying to keep track of the number of known Williams 10's that are still known to exist.  John Noxon said that a total of 12 were made.

- John initially (since I joined the forum) said that he knew of 7. 
- John Sandhagen restored 2 10's for John, so that brings the count up to 9.* 
- Sven Larsson had one in Sweden which he sold to his teacher who sold it to another trombonist, so that's 10. 
- John Sandhagen learned of another one owned by someone in California, so that's 11. 
- John Noxon told me that there's a 10 bell somewhere in Europe (I don't remember any details), so that's 11 1/2.

Now if the guy in Europe would sell me the 10 bell, I would ask John Sandhagen to build a horn around it to bring the count up to 12.   

Is that a good plan, or what?   

*I guess I'm assuming that the two 10's that John Sandhagen restored weren't a part of John Noxon's initial 7 count.


i too would like to know where all the Model 10's are. like who's playing them, where are they being played, what type of situations are they being played in, etc. it seems that the few that are known of are being played all over the world and it'd be nice to know anything or as much as possible about them!!!!!!

Quote from: bachbone on May 31, 2009, 03:03PMI was talking with a guy on the phone and he claims to have purchased a Williams 10 for $275 with a Mt. Vernon 5g and several other vintage accessories.  The kid wanted to buy something else with the money and didn't care what it was worth.

Kids these days!!! 
i think my heart just skipped a beat, lol!!!!!!

Jeez you guys getting so hot under the collar over Williams horns!!!

OK first to lay $5000 on me gets my Model 6 Donelson........

Quote from: Chris Fidler on May 31, 2009, 04:34PMJeez you guys getting so hot under the collar over Williams horns!!!

OK first to lay $5000 on me gets my Model 6 Donelson........

Me too...

You guys are crazy asking $5000...I'll let my Williams 6 go for a paltry $4999. 

$4998.99999