So many thumbs up.
Btw Martin, I just appended some thoughts on your last post to my reply to John just above.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Today at 03:35 AMIn case anyone was thinking I was shirking my christian responsibility to convert you or an internet responsibility to convince you that I I'm right and you're wrong, I don't accept either. As a christian I take it as my responsibility to present the gospel to you, my hope, to explain it when you want and pray for you. I think this is an excellent way of doing that. I enjoy learning from you while I'm doing it too, so that's a bonus.
So many thumbs up.
Btw Martin, I just appended some thoughts on your last post to my reply to John just above.
So many thumbs up.
Btw Martin, I just appended some thoughts on your last post to my reply to John just above.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Yesterday at 03:18 AMEzekiel 16 text
Highlights
- Jerusalem as a woman whose sexual acts challenge their society
- I get the impression that they were supposed to be outraged rather than challenged.
QuoteSummary
- Ezekiel claims that Yahweh has cared for Jerusalem, raising it from infancy to adulthood
- He casts its religious plurality as a strong partisan negative
- It took in cultural influences from its stronger neighbours, which was "playing the whore"
- Jerusalem is compared to other cities viewed as gone astray by the writer, such as Sodom
- All are framed as sexually uncontrollable women in the metaphor
- But all these cities will in time be rescued
- Reminder of the covenant
Questions and Observations
1) Ezekiel's metaphorical creation of Jerusalem doesn't really jive with the conquest story. It does however sit better with the idea that the Israelites were just another group of Canaanites that arose in their later location. We have no idea what the state of the writer of the Book of Ezekiel's historical and folkloric knowledge was though.
no it doesn't does it. But I don't think we should be too concerned with that because you've just convinced us how unreliable you think Ezekiel is
(this is me being cheeky if you didn't realise. I'm confident Dave will provide a rational reason why its reasonable to doubt Ezekiel's comment on Daniel in the last chapter but trust this one)
From my perspective, as Ezekiel's history doesn't tally with the canonical history I would guess that he's not being literal here. It seems that Ezekiel is painting a picture of a woman who came from the worst nations, was given every good thing she had by God, and then betrayed him completely and debased herself in the worst way he could think of.
Quote2) These prophets have been very Jerusalem-focussed. It's as if a group of English exiles could only talk about London and its hinterland. Not-too-distant Oxford might get a mention, but the larger and more important hub of Manchester not, and the regional rural areas - not a chance. We are seeing only a very narrow range of interests expressed in these documents, focussed on the court, its city, and the area supporting it. I wonder if we start to see the classic rural vs urban divide in this focus; I note that the later Maccabean revolt can be viewed as a rural uprising against the Hellenised ruling class.
from a theological point of view the city rural divide is not significant: Jerusalm was the centre of worship, religion and rule. It was expected to be the centre of excellence for following God and ruling wisely and well.
I think that the exiles may have came from Jerusalem too, so that's another reason why they would have been interested in it.
Quote3) Who was it who was so scathing of prostitutes recently that he also used them as a shorthand for evil in this kind of metaphorical tirade? Jeremiah, wasn't it? It still isn't an endearing set of prejudices.
4) It is interesting that this comparison is one that is automatically reached for as a way to make people feel that the terrible things that have gone on have been justified. There's some deep deep misogyny underlying it - the kind that simultaneously holds women as sacred and seeks to control them. Even the sheer length of this particular tirade speaks of it.
God's relationship with Israel was likened to marriage and the covenant was their marriage covenant. So the prophets talked about Israel as an unfaithful wife/prostitute when the nation was being unfaithful to God and as a bride when she was being faithful. So I see the purpose of these tirades to be a criticism of Israels unfaithfulness rather than a critique of prostitution.
Sure it was also criticising prostitutes, but the passages that use the image of a faithful bride are positive to women. They probably don't balance out, but that's because Israel was more unfaithful than faithful.
Highlights
- Jerusalem as a woman whose sexual acts challenge their society
- I get the impression that they were supposed to be outraged rather than challenged.
QuoteSummary
- Ezekiel claims that Yahweh has cared for Jerusalem, raising it from infancy to adulthood
- He casts its religious plurality as a strong partisan negative
- It took in cultural influences from its stronger neighbours, which was "playing the whore"
- Jerusalem is compared to other cities viewed as gone astray by the writer, such as Sodom
- All are framed as sexually uncontrollable women in the metaphor
- But all these cities will in time be rescued
- Reminder of the covenant
Questions and Observations
1) Ezekiel's metaphorical creation of Jerusalem doesn't really jive with the conquest story. It does however sit better with the idea that the Israelites were just another group of Canaanites that arose in their later location. We have no idea what the state of the writer of the Book of Ezekiel's historical and folkloric knowledge was though.
no it doesn't does it. But I don't think we should be too concerned with that because you've just convinced us how unreliable you think Ezekiel is
(this is me being cheeky if you didn't realise. I'm confident Dave will provide a rational reason why its reasonable to doubt Ezekiel's comment on Daniel in the last chapter but trust this one)From my perspective, as Ezekiel's history doesn't tally with the canonical history I would guess that he's not being literal here. It seems that Ezekiel is painting a picture of a woman who came from the worst nations, was given every good thing she had by God, and then betrayed him completely and debased herself in the worst way he could think of.
Quote2) These prophets have been very Jerusalem-focussed. It's as if a group of English exiles could only talk about London and its hinterland. Not-too-distant Oxford might get a mention, but the larger and more important hub of Manchester not, and the regional rural areas - not a chance. We are seeing only a very narrow range of interests expressed in these documents, focussed on the court, its city, and the area supporting it. I wonder if we start to see the classic rural vs urban divide in this focus; I note that the later Maccabean revolt can be viewed as a rural uprising against the Hellenised ruling class.
from a theological point of view the city rural divide is not significant: Jerusalm was the centre of worship, religion and rule. It was expected to be the centre of excellence for following God and ruling wisely and well.
I think that the exiles may have came from Jerusalem too, so that's another reason why they would have been interested in it.
Quote3) Who was it who was so scathing of prostitutes recently that he also used them as a shorthand for evil in this kind of metaphorical tirade? Jeremiah, wasn't it? It still isn't an endearing set of prejudices.
4) It is interesting that this comparison is one that is automatically reached for as a way to make people feel that the terrible things that have gone on have been justified. There's some deep deep misogyny underlying it - the kind that simultaneously holds women as sacred and seeks to control them. Even the sheer length of this particular tirade speaks of it.
God's relationship with Israel was likened to marriage and the covenant was their marriage covenant. So the prophets talked about Israel as an unfaithful wife/prostitute when the nation was being unfaithful to God and as a bride when she was being faithful. So I see the purpose of these tirades to be a criticism of Israels unfaithfulness rather than a critique of prostitution.
Sure it was also criticising prostitutes, but the passages that use the image of a faithful bride are positive to women. They probably don't balance out, but that's because Israel was more unfaithful than faithful.
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ttf_John the Theologian
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Sorry, goofed up the placing of my message in the quotes-- will have to redo later.
Addendum-- not sure that I need to redo much of what I wrote since Martin summed up many of the points I was going to make quite well.
Let me confirm what Martin said about the narratives being written by the "winners." When I look at the texts, it doesn't look as if the Yahwists were winners very often. In fact the whole prophetic and eschatologial themes of the prophets are that the Baalists, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, etc. actually may look like the winners, but that the final word is not in yet so hang in there in the worship of Yahweh. I think that perspective of the Yahwist prophets needs to taken quite seriously in seeing what the texts are actually saying.
Addendum-- not sure that I need to redo much of what I wrote since Martin summed up many of the points I was going to make quite well.
Let me confirm what Martin said about the narratives being written by the "winners." When I look at the texts, it doesn't look as if the Yahwists were winners very often. In fact the whole prophetic and eschatologial themes of the prophets are that the Baalists, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, etc. actually may look like the winners, but that the final word is not in yet so hang in there in the worship of Yahweh. I think that perspective of the Yahwist prophets needs to taken quite seriously in seeing what the texts are actually saying.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Yesterday at 03:16 AMThis is something that's bothered me throughout. The picture I've built up in my head is of a society that gradually evolved from a polytheistic patchwork of worship practices to settle on the one documented here. The Yahwists were the winners out of all of this - what is it they say? "History is written by the winners". This is their documentation of how their power base outcompeted all the other power bases; it's not going to be a pretty narrative of sincere TTF-style happy debates after which one party folds up their Moloch-branded tents in order to paint new ones with the stronger logical claims of Yahweh. There's going to be blood and conflict, and they're going to shade it to favour their cause, for example by justifying their atrocities while decrying those of their competitors. We've seen these things over and over, and chewed them around as they've arisen.
I see it slightly differently, or maybe very
- I think the Genesis/Exodus is important to set the scene and is critical to my understanding. I don't take it all literally but :
- it tells us that God created everything
- and then it tells us the history of his chosen people from Adam, through Noah then Abraham and Moses where he decided that he was Isreal's God (no freedom of religion there).
So I view the worship practices of people through filter that
- Yahweh is the one true God (or at least the only one with a "G"), and that
- Israel is his people and they have no business worshipping any other.
You mention that the Yahwists were the winners. I don't think that this is true although its arguable. My point relies on the Yahwists being faithful Yahwists and not corrupt ones. So just as we've seen the prophets continually criticised the priests the false prophets and the rulers for their failure to be faithful to Yahweh, this situation continued even after the return from exile in Babylon. Most of the leaders of the country and temple were unfaithful to God after the return from Babylon to, but rather than turn to other gods, they stayed within the Yahwist religion and co-opted it for their own use. I would consider these people not to be Yahwists, and their behaviour is definitely criticised in the bible.
QuoteSo they had all these different strands - maybe one village was for Moloch, one for Baal, one for Yahweh, one for Asherah and Yahweh together, one for Dagon, one for El. They co-existed for centuries (millennia?) in their religious pluralism. Maybe there was regular conflict over it - it isn't documented well enough for us to know, but I guess it would have been likely. Also over time an ethnic identity grew, as Canaanites began to think of themselves as Israelites (as this is my personal picture of it all, note that the Exodus story gets no credence, as discussed when we read it). We know that Israelites (which includes Judah for shorthand) practised a variety of religions in the kingdom years - we are told this in these books. So there were many Israelites that followed and had always followed other gods, who in time (centuries, with the exile providing the final stimulus) were persuaded by fair means or foul to get on board the Yahweh train.
While not thinking that the numbers in the pentateuch were meant to be accurate I said that the stories were close approximations of what happened, even though they may not have the same standard as our modern histories. (at least that's what I remember)
And I have my genesis view of the world which explains why I see it differently to you.
QuoteIs it then valid for the Yahwists to claim all these people, who had never been 'theirs', as under their jurisdiction? We learn from these books that a standard tactic was to influence the king, whose ideas would propagate over the land - there are Yahwist kings (e.g. Hezekiah, Josiah - and names ending in '-iah' are a definite hint, it being Yahweh's name), and there are non-Yahwist kings (e.g. most of the others). This was a society where powerful figures used the powerful political tools at their disposal to co-opt others against their wills - and the Yahwists were no different - in fact, as the eventual winners of the process, it could be argued that the Yahwists were the most successful political game-players of all.
As I've said I see Israel as being Yahweh's and the prophets his spokesman, and that the Yahwist's weren't really the winners. It was those who corrupted the religion who were the successful political game-players. I think that you will see that this is the case when we get to the New Testament, where the religion is run by people who are in it for the power, prestige and wealth. I wouldn't call these Yahwists though.
QuoteIf the Genesis/Exodus narrative is believed, we weaken these objections, as it neatly pulls the starting points together. But being a Christian does not tie one to committing to literal belief in Genesis and Exodus. And what about those raised to believe in a different god by parents who had moved away from Yahweh? With time their own family traditions would become the only known reality even if their ancestors had worshipped Yahweh. Is it fair to count them?
As I said I don't take Genesis/Exodus all literally but it they are meant to present the truth and I think my points above are reasonably obvious from the text.
From the perspective of one who believes in the one True God, he expected Israelites to worship him. I don't think that God believes in fair but he had that expectation of them.
I don't know whether I've got the point of your post here, so apologies if I've gone off on a tangent.
I see it slightly differently, or maybe very
- I think the Genesis/Exodus is important to set the scene and is critical to my understanding. I don't take it all literally but :
- it tells us that God created everything
- and then it tells us the history of his chosen people from Adam, through Noah then Abraham and Moses where he decided that he was Isreal's God (no freedom of religion there).
So I view the worship practices of people through filter that
- Yahweh is the one true God (or at least the only one with a "G"), and that
- Israel is his people and they have no business worshipping any other.
You mention that the Yahwists were the winners. I don't think that this is true although its arguable. My point relies on the Yahwists being faithful Yahwists and not corrupt ones. So just as we've seen the prophets continually criticised the priests the false prophets and the rulers for their failure to be faithful to Yahweh, this situation continued even after the return from exile in Babylon. Most of the leaders of the country and temple were unfaithful to God after the return from Babylon to, but rather than turn to other gods, they stayed within the Yahwist religion and co-opted it for their own use. I would consider these people not to be Yahwists, and their behaviour is definitely criticised in the bible.
QuoteSo they had all these different strands - maybe one village was for Moloch, one for Baal, one for Yahweh, one for Asherah and Yahweh together, one for Dagon, one for El. They co-existed for centuries (millennia?) in their religious pluralism. Maybe there was regular conflict over it - it isn't documented well enough for us to know, but I guess it would have been likely. Also over time an ethnic identity grew, as Canaanites began to think of themselves as Israelites (as this is my personal picture of it all, note that the Exodus story gets no credence, as discussed when we read it). We know that Israelites (which includes Judah for shorthand) practised a variety of religions in the kingdom years - we are told this in these books. So there were many Israelites that followed and had always followed other gods, who in time (centuries, with the exile providing the final stimulus) were persuaded by fair means or foul to get on board the Yahweh train.
While not thinking that the numbers in the pentateuch were meant to be accurate I said that the stories were close approximations of what happened, even though they may not have the same standard as our modern histories. (at least that's what I remember)
And I have my genesis view of the world which explains why I see it differently to you.
QuoteIs it then valid for the Yahwists to claim all these people, who had never been 'theirs', as under their jurisdiction? We learn from these books that a standard tactic was to influence the king, whose ideas would propagate over the land - there are Yahwist kings (e.g. Hezekiah, Josiah - and names ending in '-iah' are a definite hint, it being Yahweh's name), and there are non-Yahwist kings (e.g. most of the others). This was a society where powerful figures used the powerful political tools at their disposal to co-opt others against their wills - and the Yahwists were no different - in fact, as the eventual winners of the process, it could be argued that the Yahwists were the most successful political game-players of all.
As I've said I see Israel as being Yahweh's and the prophets his spokesman, and that the Yahwist's weren't really the winners. It was those who corrupted the religion who were the successful political game-players. I think that you will see that this is the case when we get to the New Testament, where the religion is run by people who are in it for the power, prestige and wealth. I wouldn't call these Yahwists though.
QuoteIf the Genesis/Exodus narrative is believed, we weaken these objections, as it neatly pulls the starting points together. But being a Christian does not tie one to committing to literal belief in Genesis and Exodus. And what about those raised to believe in a different god by parents who had moved away from Yahweh? With time their own family traditions would become the only known reality even if their ancestors had worshipped Yahweh. Is it fair to count them?
As I said I don't take Genesis/Exodus all literally but it they are meant to present the truth and I think my points above are reasonably obvious from the text.
From the perspective of one who believes in the one True God, he expected Israelites to worship him. I don't think that God believes in fair but he had that expectation of them.
I don't know whether I've got the point of your post here, so apologies if I've gone off on a tangent.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: John the Theologian on Yesterday at 04:50 AMSorry, goofed up the placing of my message in the quotes-- will have to redo later.
Addendum-- not sure that I need to redo much of what I wrote since Martin summed up many of the points I was going to make quite well.
Let me confirm what Martin said about the narratives being written by the "winners." When I look at the texts, it doesn't look as if the Yahwists were winners very often. In fact the whole prophetic and eschatologial themes of the prophets are that the Baalists, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, etc. actually may look like the winners, but that the final word is not in yet so hang in there in the worship of Yahweh. I think that perspective of the Yahwist prophets needs to taken quite seriously in seeing what the texts are actually saying.
They record their reverses as well as their triumphs, but the effect of "winner writes history" is in the main subtler than oh-let's-just-pretend-that-defeat-never-happened. We detect it in the fact that those kings that meet with the Yahwists' approval are biographied in much greater detail than those that don't. We detect it in the lack of interest shown in competing ethnic and religious viewpoints. We detect it in the fact that these books were written by the Yahwists. If you and I both wrote a history of 21st century religious interest in the US and UK, we'd each sincerely do our best, but I bet the results would be very different. It doesn't matter how honestly dedicated the chroniclers were to writing down the whole story - if they didn't have the whole story, they couldn't do so. When I call the Yahwists "winners", I mean that we are reading their book today, not the book of Baal or Dagon. (Although it does somewhat tickle me that the Pope's mitre seems to be a straight copy of Dagon's fish-hat regalia...
)
I hope that makes some sense... I'm writing against a background of builders using masonry drills and saws to tear down the wall immediately behind me, which is quite distracting... The cats aren't liking the disturbance much.
Addendum-- not sure that I need to redo much of what I wrote since Martin summed up many of the points I was going to make quite well.
Let me confirm what Martin said about the narratives being written by the "winners." When I look at the texts, it doesn't look as if the Yahwists were winners very often. In fact the whole prophetic and eschatologial themes of the prophets are that the Baalists, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, etc. actually may look like the winners, but that the final word is not in yet so hang in there in the worship of Yahweh. I think that perspective of the Yahwist prophets needs to taken quite seriously in seeing what the texts are actually saying.
They record their reverses as well as their triumphs, but the effect of "winner writes history" is in the main subtler than oh-let's-just-pretend-that-defeat-never-happened. We detect it in the fact that those kings that meet with the Yahwists' approval are biographied in much greater detail than those that don't. We detect it in the lack of interest shown in competing ethnic and religious viewpoints. We detect it in the fact that these books were written by the Yahwists. If you and I both wrote a history of 21st century religious interest in the US and UK, we'd each sincerely do our best, but I bet the results would be very different. It doesn't matter how honestly dedicated the chroniclers were to writing down the whole story - if they didn't have the whole story, they couldn't do so. When I call the Yahwists "winners", I mean that we are reading their book today, not the book of Baal or Dagon. (Although it does somewhat tickle me that the Pope's mitre seems to be a straight copy of Dagon's fish-hat regalia...
)I hope that makes some sense... I'm writing against a background of builders using masonry drills and saws to tear down the wall immediately behind me, which is quite distracting... The cats aren't liking the disturbance much.
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ttf_John the Theologian
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Quote from: MoominDave on Yesterday at 07:44 AMThey record their reverses as well as their triumphs, but the effect of "winner writes history" is in the main subtler than oh-let's-just-pretend-that-defeat-never-happened. We detect it in the fact that those kings that meet with the Yahwists' approval are biographied in much greater detail than those that don't. We detect it in the lack of interest shown in competing ethnic and religious viewpoints. We detect it in the fact that these books were written by the Yahwists. If you and I both wrote a history of 21st century religious interest in the US and UK, we'd each sincerely do our best, but I bet the results would be very different. It doesn't matter how honestly dedicated the chroniclers were to writing down the whole story - if they didn't have the whole story, they couldn't do so. When I call the Yahwists "winners", I mean that we are reading their book today, not the book of Baal or Dagon.
I hope that makes some sense... I'm writing against a background of builders using masonry drills and saws to tear down the wall immediately behind me, which is quite distracting... The cats aren't liking the disturbance much.
Yes, but unless we follow the perspective that since history is always written by the "winners" we can really never know anything near the "real truth" historically, we obviously have to use the texts we have from a historical POV. We can always try to read between the lines, so to speak, but the history of Old Testament critical histories has a lot of discarded theories that so read between the lines that no real lines were left, only what the authors surmised was between the lines. That's, of course, where our presuppositions-- I always come back to that, of course
, come in.
I hope that makes some sense... I'm writing against a background of builders using masonry drills and saws to tear down the wall immediately behind me, which is quite distracting... The cats aren't liking the disturbance much.
Yes, but unless we follow the perspective that since history is always written by the "winners" we can really never know anything near the "real truth" historically, we obviously have to use the texts we have from a historical POV. We can always try to read between the lines, so to speak, but the history of Old Testament critical histories has a lot of discarded theories that so read between the lines that no real lines were left, only what the authors surmised was between the lines. That's, of course, where our presuppositions-- I always come back to that, of course
, come in.-
ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: John the Theologian on Yesterday at 07:51 AMYes, but unless we follow the perspective that since history is always written by the "winners" we can really never know anything near the "real truth" historically, we obviously have to use the texts we have from a historical POV. We can always try to read between the lines, so to speak, but the history of Old Testament critical histories has a lot of discarded theories that so read between the lines that no real lines were left, only what the authors surmised was between the lines. That's, of course, where our presuppositions-- I always come back to that, of course , come in.
Indeed. We must always have our cautious hats on. For me, there is always more satisfaction in knowing how a source is unreliable than in placing untested trust in it. One can then ask oneself "What if I placed this trust in it?" and answer questions about outcomes with the sort of probability you've deduced.
I find myself assembling piece by piece a consistent framework of knowledge of the time and place as I read more and more sources. As I go on with this, I aim to extract what knowledge I can from it to hang onto that framework. Where something fits, that's neat. Where something doesn't fit, that's something to ponder. I must guard against systematically throwing out valid knowledge because I have something wrong. And I must also guard against those who would try to slip an untruth through my defences from 2,500 years in the past - and also against their modern descendants trying to do the same thing. It's all fascinating, and so so human.
, come in.Indeed. We must always have our cautious hats on. For me, there is always more satisfaction in knowing how a source is unreliable than in placing untested trust in it. One can then ask oneself "What if I placed this trust in it?" and answer questions about outcomes with the sort of probability you've deduced.
I find myself assembling piece by piece a consistent framework of knowledge of the time and place as I read more and more sources. As I go on with this, I aim to extract what knowledge I can from it to hang onto that framework. Where something fits, that's neat. Where something doesn't fit, that's something to ponder. I must guard against systematically throwing out valid knowledge because I have something wrong. And I must also guard against those who would try to slip an untruth through my defences from 2,500 years in the past - and also against their modern descendants trying to do the same thing. It's all fascinating, and so so human.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: MoominDave on Yesterday at 07:59 AMIndeed. We must always have our cautious hats on. For me, there is always more satisfaction in knowing how a source is unreliable than in placing untested trust in it.
In the Black Swan by Taleb,
https://www.amazon.com/Black-Swan-Improbable-Robustness-Fragility/dp/081297381X
a book I highly recommend and just as highly doubt any of you will read,
there is a section on data. He explains it better than I can, but basically says that data that supports your conclusion is worthless, it adds no more information. What you need to look for is data that should refute your conclusion. Either finding it or not finding it adds to the probability you are right.
In the Black Swan by Taleb,
https://www.amazon.com/Black-Swan-Improbable-Robustness-Fragility/dp/081297381X
a book I highly recommend and just as highly doubt any of you will read,
there is a section on data. He explains it better than I can, but basically says that data that supports your conclusion is worthless, it adds no more information. What you need to look for is data that should refute your conclusion. Either finding it or not finding it adds to the probability you are right.
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ttf_MoominDave
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That is how to be a good scientist in a nutshell. You spend your time looking for ways to make your thing break. And when you can't find any, you record that you may not have looked thoroughly enough.
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ttf_John the Theologian
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Quote from: MoominDave on Yesterday at 09:31 AMThat is how to be a good scientist in a nutshell. You spend your time looking for ways to make your thing break. And when you can't find any, you record that you may not have looked thoroughly enough.
Sounds great in theory, but the history of science often shows a far different record. The issue of human self interest and confirming one's own theories rather than trying to break them is ubiquitous. That's why T. Kuhn's groundbreaking The Structure of Scientific Revolutions which is about how paradigms really shift was so unsettling to many scientists.
Sounds great in theory, but the history of science often shows a far different record. The issue of human self interest and confirming one's own theories rather than trying to break them is ubiquitous. That's why T. Kuhn's groundbreaking The Structure of Scientific Revolutions which is about how paradigms really shift was so unsettling to many scientists.
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ttf_MoominDave
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I was describing how to do it well. You don't have to take issue just because I made science sound good
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: John the Theologian on Yesterday at 09:37 AM That's why T. Kuhn's groundbreaking The Structure of Scientific Revolutions which is about how paradigms really shift was so unsettling to many scientists.
Well, be careful there.
We read it in grad school, but I was in a soft science (clinical psychology). The soft sciences in general did jump on board his theories, and he was indeed influential (though dated, now.)
The harder sciences did not, not because he was unsettling (though to some extent he his assertions were) but because he was rather inaccurate. Hard science progress did not conform to his model as closely as he claimed.
Well, be careful there.
We read it in grad school, but I was in a soft science (clinical psychology). The soft sciences in general did jump on board his theories, and he was indeed influential (though dated, now.)
The harder sciences did not, not because he was unsettling (though to some extent he his assertions were) but because he was rather inaccurate. Hard science progress did not conform to his model as closely as he claimed.
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ttf_John the Theologian
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Quote from: MoominDave on Yesterday at 09:46 AMI was describing how to do it well. You don't have to take issue just because I made science sound good
It wasn't science I as taking issues with, but those pesky humans known as scientists.
It wasn't science I as taking issues with, but those pesky humans known as scientists.
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ttf_BillO
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Significant scientific works always go through much rigorous peer review. Sure there a things of little or no consequence that may initially get around that, but they won't last long nor will they have any significant impact. However, if you come up with something that will potentially change the way we live, or change the way we look at the universe, you better believe it will get well hammered, usually before publication, to see if it stands up.
A perfect example is the cold fusion claims published by Fleischmann & Pons back in 1989. It was debunked within 5 weeks. The more impact a particular claim will have, the quicker it will be put to the test.
Now, engineering, that's a different matter. It often gets called science, but it is not. It only uses science, and sometimes incorrectly or without regard for consequences.
A perfect example is the cold fusion claims published by Fleischmann & Pons back in 1989. It was debunked within 5 weeks. The more impact a particular claim will have, the quicker it will be put to the test.
Now, engineering, that's a different matter. It often gets called science, but it is not. It only uses science, and sometimes incorrectly or without regard for consequences.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Ezekiel 18 text
Highlights
- Fair and unfair judgement
Summary
- In Israel it is held that the sins of the father are visited upon the son
- But this is not fair - the good son of a bad father should not suffer for it
- It is better for a wicked person to become a good person than for them to die
- Isn't this the right to do it, says Ezekiel/Yahweh?
- It's how it will play out for Israel as a whole
Questions and Observations
1) A refreshingly obvious piece of humanity here - the son is not the father and should not be blamed for the father's sins
Highlights
- Fair and unfair judgement
Summary
- In Israel it is held that the sins of the father are visited upon the son
- But this is not fair - the good son of a bad father should not suffer for it
- It is better for a wicked person to become a good person than for them to die
- Isn't this the right to do it, says Ezekiel/Yahweh?
- It's how it will play out for Israel as a whole
Questions and Observations
1) A refreshingly obvious piece of humanity here - the son is not the father and should not be blamed for the father's sins
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ttf_MoominDave
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Ezekiel 19 text
Highlights
- A lament
Summary
- Israel is like a lion cub
- Raised to hunt men
- Egypt captured it
- Its mother raised another
- It didn't behave well
- Babylon captured it
- Israel's mother is like a fruitful vine planted by water
- Plucked out of the ground in a rage
Questions and Observations
1) Not quite sure what the Egypt reference exactly means. Perhaps it simply reflects Judah being caught between mighty powers. It's a bit reminiscent of Joseph also.
2) Not quite sure what Israel's mother is in the metaphor either. Bit obscure this one.
Highlights
- A lament
Summary
- Israel is like a lion cub
- Raised to hunt men
- Egypt captured it
- Its mother raised another
- It didn't behave well
- Babylon captured it
- Israel's mother is like a fruitful vine planted by water
- Plucked out of the ground in a rage
Questions and Observations
1) Not quite sure what the Egypt reference exactly means. Perhaps it simply reflects Judah being caught between mighty powers. It's a bit reminiscent of Joseph also.
2) Not quite sure what Israel's mother is in the metaphor either. Bit obscure this one.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Yesterday at 11:45 AMEzekiel 18 text
Highlights
- Fair and unfair judgement
Summary
- In Israel it is held that the sins of the father are visited upon the son
- But this is not fair - the good son of a bad father should not suffer for it
- It is better for a wicked person to become a good person than for them to die
- Isn't this the right to do it, says Ezekiel/Yahweh?
- It's how it will play out for Israel as a whole
- don't forget "a wicked man who repents will be saved". So salvation is not about adding up all your good and bad and hoping that the good outweighs the bad.
Highlights
- Fair and unfair judgement
Summary
- In Israel it is held that the sins of the father are visited upon the son
- But this is not fair - the good son of a bad father should not suffer for it
- It is better for a wicked person to become a good person than for them to die
- Isn't this the right to do it, says Ezekiel/Yahweh?
- It's how it will play out for Israel as a whole
- don't forget "a wicked man who repents will be saved". So salvation is not about adding up all your good and bad and hoping that the good outweighs the bad.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 02:49 PM- don't forget "a wicked man who repents will be saved". So salvation is not about adding up all your good and bad and hoping that the good outweighs the bad.
I do wonder why it is set up that way. It almost asks people to live wicked lives, then recant on their deathbeds.
I do wonder why it is set up that way. It almost asks people to live wicked lives, then recant on their deathbeds.
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ttf_John the Theologian
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Quote from: MoominDave on Yesterday at 02:53 PMI do wonder why it is set up that way. It almost asks people to live wicked lives, then recant on their deathbeds.
Not in the larger context. It is an encouragement that God is gracious, not a motivation to sin. No place are "deathbed repentences" encourged, although they are not ruled out.
Not in the larger context. It is an encouragement that God is gracious, not a motivation to sin. No place are "deathbed repentences" encourged, although they are not ruled out.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Yesterday at 11:51 AMEzekiel 19 text
...
Questions and Observations
1) Not quite sure what the Egypt reference exactly means. Perhaps it simply reflects Judah being caught between mighty powers. It's a bit reminiscent of Joseph also.
2) Not quite sure what Israel's mother is in the metaphor either. Bit obscure this one.
- the chapter seems to be about the falling of Israel from its 'rightful' position as ruler
- she is first pictured as a lion cub, the king of beasts, who is top dog but it taken into captivity by Egypt
- then as another lion cub, who is top dog again, but is again taken, this time by Babylon
- then as a strong and fruitful vine that is taken by the east wind (Babylon) and is now weak and not fit to rule
...
Questions and Observations
1) Not quite sure what the Egypt reference exactly means. Perhaps it simply reflects Judah being caught between mighty powers. It's a bit reminiscent of Joseph also.
2) Not quite sure what Israel's mother is in the metaphor either. Bit obscure this one.
- the chapter seems to be about the falling of Israel from its 'rightful' position as ruler
- she is first pictured as a lion cub, the king of beasts, who is top dog but it taken into captivity by Egypt
- then as another lion cub, who is top dog again, but is again taken, this time by Babylon
- then as a strong and fruitful vine that is taken by the east wind (Babylon) and is now weak and not fit to rule
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Yesterday at 02:53 PMI do wonder why it is set up that way. It almost asks people to live wicked lives, then recant on their deathbeds.
1 word. Grace.
Paul discusses this in Romans.
anecdotally: people tend to get more fixed in their positions (habits, ways, beliefs ...) as they age. Death bed conversions are rare.
1 word. Grace.
Paul discusses this in Romans.
anecdotally: people tend to get more fixed in their positions (habits, ways, beliefs ...) as they age. Death bed conversions are rare.
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ttf_John the Theologian
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Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 02:57 PManecdotally: people tend to get more fixed in their positions as they age. Death bed conversions are rare.
Completely agree, although I had an old great uncle who was converted in his old age after a life of adhering to naturalistic philosophy. He was a crusty old Dutch immigrant who insisted that the old gospel hymn, Just As I Am had to be sung at his funeral.
Completely agree, although I had an old great uncle who was converted in his old age after a life of adhering to naturalistic philosophy. He was a crusty old Dutch immigrant who insisted that the old gospel hymn, Just As I Am had to be sung at his funeral.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 02:57 PM
anecdotally: people tend to get more fixed in their positions (habits, ways, beliefs ...) as they age. Death bed conversions are rare.
I mostly agree, but there are quite a few examples of people getting mystical in their later days. They don't convert to a personal vision of a God, but sometimes do open up to "something more," sometimes in quite an embarassingly new agey fashion.
anecdotally: people tend to get more fixed in their positions (habits, ways, beliefs ...) as they age. Death bed conversions are rare.
I mostly agree, but there are quite a few examples of people getting mystical in their later days. They don't convert to a personal vision of a God, but sometimes do open up to "something more," sometimes in quite an embarassingly new agey fashion.
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ttf_drizabone
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Ezekiel 20 text
Highlights
- A history of rebellion
Summary
- Some elders of Israel ask Ezekiel to contact God for them.
- But God refuses to talk to them. He has Ezekiel judge them and condemn them for their idolatry and abominations.
- God then runs through the history of his relations with Israel. At first, while the Hebrews are still in Egypt, God tells them they need to give up their idolatries. - They don't.
- God considers pouring out his anger on them, but for the sake of his name, leads them out of Egypt and into the wilderness.
- He gives them his laws and Sabbaths to keep, so that they could live.
- They don't do that, either, but rebelled against him.
- God continues to restrain his anger for his name's sake. He offer's his laws and the Sabbath to the people's children in the wilderness, but they refuse to follow them.
- God takes vengeance on them by swearing to scatter them among the nations and by giving them laws that are bad for them. He does this so that they might know he is Yahweh.
- God says that even when he led people into the land he'd promised them, they continued to blaspheme, sacrificing to idols on high places, etc., etc.
- He promises them that they'll never get away with worshipping idols like other nations. He says that it's because of these treasonous acts against him that he refuses to discuss anything with the elders. He has had it with them.
- But eventually, God will lead the people out of exile after judging them and purging the disobedient rebels from among them.
- He won't let the transgressors return to their land.
- Meanwhile, the wicked might as well just go and serve their idols. God doesn't want their cheating love anyway.
- When God brings the remainder of Israel back into their own land, God will show his holiness to the world. He'll accept them, and the people will finally be ashamed of their past behavior.
- God ends by tacking on a prophecy that he'll burn down the forest land of the Negeb.
- Ezekiel cries to God, saying that the people think he's only a storyteller.
Questions and Observations
1) See, Ezekiel agrees with me: God chose the people and they rebelled from him.
2) the description of the return, repentance and restoration of Israel doesn't appear to have happened yet. Was Ezekiel wrong or has this not been fulfilled yet?
3) I meant to say that in chapter 17 Bill said Ezekiel hinted at the coming of Christ. I wonder if that was fulfilled?
Highlights
- A history of rebellion
Summary
- Some elders of Israel ask Ezekiel to contact God for them.
- But God refuses to talk to them. He has Ezekiel judge them and condemn them for their idolatry and abominations.
- God then runs through the history of his relations with Israel. At first, while the Hebrews are still in Egypt, God tells them they need to give up their idolatries. - They don't.
- God considers pouring out his anger on them, but for the sake of his name, leads them out of Egypt and into the wilderness.
- He gives them his laws and Sabbaths to keep, so that they could live.
- They don't do that, either, but rebelled against him.
- God continues to restrain his anger for his name's sake. He offer's his laws and the Sabbath to the people's children in the wilderness, but they refuse to follow them.
- God takes vengeance on them by swearing to scatter them among the nations and by giving them laws that are bad for them. He does this so that they might know he is Yahweh.
- God says that even when he led people into the land he'd promised them, they continued to blaspheme, sacrificing to idols on high places, etc., etc.
- He promises them that they'll never get away with worshipping idols like other nations. He says that it's because of these treasonous acts against him that he refuses to discuss anything with the elders. He has had it with them.
- But eventually, God will lead the people out of exile after judging them and purging the disobedient rebels from among them.
- He won't let the transgressors return to their land.
- Meanwhile, the wicked might as well just go and serve their idols. God doesn't want their cheating love anyway.
- When God brings the remainder of Israel back into their own land, God will show his holiness to the world. He'll accept them, and the people will finally be ashamed of their past behavior.
- God ends by tacking on a prophecy that he'll burn down the forest land of the Negeb.
- Ezekiel cries to God, saying that the people think he's only a storyteller.
Questions and Observations
1) See, Ezekiel agrees with me: God chose the people and they rebelled from him.
2) the description of the return, repentance and restoration of Israel doesn't appear to have happened yet. Was Ezekiel wrong or has this not been fulfilled yet?
3) I meant to say that in chapter 17 Bill said Ezekiel hinted at the coming of Christ. I wonder if that was fulfilled?
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: John the Theologian on Yesterday at 02:55 PMNot in the larger context. It is an encouragement that God is gracious, not a motivation to sin. No place are "deathbed repentences" encourged, although they are not ruled out.
The trouble is that humans have a way of extracting their own messages from what they're told. No matter how many times you hammer in to your faithful flock that the idea is to start good and stay good, some will deduce that a life of profitable and enjoyable wickedness followed by a brief final coda of sincere repentance will do them just as well in the long term according to the rules.
The wickedness might not even be that profitable or enjoyable, but it gains an attraction simply because it is proscribed... That's human nature for you.
The trouble is that humans have a way of extracting their own messages from what they're told. No matter how many times you hammer in to your faithful flock that the idea is to start good and stay good, some will deduce that a life of profitable and enjoyable wickedness followed by a brief final coda of sincere repentance will do them just as well in the long term according to the rules.
The wickedness might not even be that profitable or enjoyable, but it gains an attraction simply because it is proscribed... That's human nature for you.
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ttf_drizabone
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Paul mentions that too.
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ttf_John the Theologian
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Quote from: MoominDave on Today at 02:05 AMThe trouble is that humans have a way of extracting their own messages from what they're told. No matter how many times you hammer in to your faithful flock that the idea is to start good and stay good, some will deduce that a life of profitable and enjoyable wickedness followed by a brief final coda of sincere repentance will do them just as well in the long term according to the rules.
The wickedness might not even be that profitable or enjoyable, but it gains an attraction simply because it is proscribed... That's human nature for you.
Agreed about human nature. That's why it's a constant battle in the Christian church to warn people that the reality of high ethical standards to which the believer is called does not mean that one is acceptable to God because one has "done their best". I find that both the 'legalist' wrong deduction and the "antinomian" wrong deduction-- what you described above-- are pitfalls that need to be constantly warned against. The truth, according to the Bible, does not "fall in the middle" but in a both/and. In other words the Biblical pattern is that one is accepted by God completely by grace, but the nature of that grace is very strongly character changing and calls for high moral standards, standards that the believer is regularly falling short of-- hence the need for more grace.
The wickedness might not even be that profitable or enjoyable, but it gains an attraction simply because it is proscribed... That's human nature for you.
Agreed about human nature. That's why it's a constant battle in the Christian church to warn people that the reality of high ethical standards to which the believer is called does not mean that one is acceptable to God because one has "done their best". I find that both the 'legalist' wrong deduction and the "antinomian" wrong deduction-- what you described above-- are pitfalls that need to be constantly warned against. The truth, according to the Bible, does not "fall in the middle" but in a both/and. In other words the Biblical pattern is that one is accepted by God completely by grace, but the nature of that grace is very strongly character changing and calls for high moral standards, standards that the believer is regularly falling short of-- hence the need for more grace.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 08:08 PMEzekiel 20 text
1) See, Ezekiel agrees with me: God chose the people and they rebelled from him.
Logical circles are fun, aren't they?
Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 08:08 PM2) the description of the return, repentance and restoration of Israel doesn't appear to have happened yet. Was Ezekiel wrong or has this not been fulfilled yet?
Given that any such happening would happen with the people performing it extremely well aware of such a prophecy, I don't think we could count it as a meaningful fulfillment... What is the faithy attitude to this kind of thing? Is it meaningful for a prophecy to be deliberately fulfilled? If so, it starts to seem a bit of a game to me.
I'm sure some would argue that this happened in the 20th century. But of course all the Jews gathering in modern Israel were acutely aware of biblical prophecies.
Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 08:08 PM3) I meant to say that in chapter 17 Bill said Ezekiel hinted at the coming of Christ. I wonder if that was fulfilled?
I guess Ezekiel had read Isaiah. The hint is a very broad one, to fit whichever particular character might turn up in time - classic cold reading.
1) See, Ezekiel agrees with me: God chose the people and they rebelled from him.
Logical circles are fun, aren't they?
Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 08:08 PM2) the description of the return, repentance and restoration of Israel doesn't appear to have happened yet. Was Ezekiel wrong or has this not been fulfilled yet?
Given that any such happening would happen with the people performing it extremely well aware of such a prophecy, I don't think we could count it as a meaningful fulfillment... What is the faithy attitude to this kind of thing? Is it meaningful for a prophecy to be deliberately fulfilled? If so, it starts to seem a bit of a game to me.
I'm sure some would argue that this happened in the 20th century. But of course all the Jews gathering in modern Israel were acutely aware of biblical prophecies.
Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 08:08 PM3) I meant to say that in chapter 17 Bill said Ezekiel hinted at the coming of Christ. I wonder if that was fulfilled?
I guess Ezekiel had read Isaiah. The hint is a very broad one, to fit whichever particular character might turn up in time - classic cold reading.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Today at 05:52 AMGiven that any such happening would happen with the people performing it extremely well aware of such a prophecy, I don't think we could count it as a meaningful fulfillment
sometimes. but I think mainly in Jesus case.
This prophecy is that the whole nation will repent and be restored by God, so it includes action by the whole people and by God. ISTM that even though it requires voluntary action by individuals acting in obedience to God (repent) that fact that it is a large group of people acting together suggests that there may be some meddling by God required to coordinate them. (apart from my view that any repentance requires God meddling). But regardless of that its God that restores Israel not them.
The 20th C church has a couple of views on this:
- a literal interpretation that requires the formation of the actual state of Israel. This has been partially fulfilled, but Israel hasn't repented or been restored to the place of primacy among the nations.
- God finally dumps Israel because of their unfaithfulness and replaces them with the church (in this case faithful christians not including the unrepentant people who have just used the church for their own benefit) and they take the place if Israel in prophecy.
There are some variations on these themes and also the possibility that a form of both will happen
Quote... What is the faithy attitude to this kind of thing? Is it meaningful for a prophecy to be deliberately fulfilled? If so, it starts to seem a bit of a game to me.
As I said Jesus deliberately fulfilled his prophecies, but most of the others were not fulfilled by people whose intent was to fulfill a prophecy (I know I can't always know peoples intent but I think I'm right here). We'll look at how it happens in the NT and explain on a case by case basis.
sometimes. but I think mainly in Jesus case.
This prophecy is that the whole nation will repent and be restored by God, so it includes action by the whole people and by God. ISTM that even though it requires voluntary action by individuals acting in obedience to God (repent) that fact that it is a large group of people acting together suggests that there may be some meddling by God required to coordinate them. (apart from my view that any repentance requires God meddling). But regardless of that its God that restores Israel not them.
The 20th C church has a couple of views on this:
- a literal interpretation that requires the formation of the actual state of Israel. This has been partially fulfilled, but Israel hasn't repented or been restored to the place of primacy among the nations.
- God finally dumps Israel because of their unfaithfulness and replaces them with the church (in this case faithful christians not including the unrepentant people who have just used the church for their own benefit) and they take the place if Israel in prophecy.
There are some variations on these themes and also the possibility that a form of both will happen
Quote... What is the faithy attitude to this kind of thing? Is it meaningful for a prophecy to be deliberately fulfilled? If so, it starts to seem a bit of a game to me.
As I said Jesus deliberately fulfilled his prophecies, but most of the others were not fulfilled by people whose intent was to fulfill a prophecy (I know I can't always know peoples intent but I think I'm right here). We'll look at how it happens in the NT and explain on a case by case basis.
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ttf_drizabone
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But I don't think much of people that claim that they are entitled to do things because they are fulfilling prophecy.
Why not? you ask. Good question - all I can come up with is that its used retrospectively and not prospectively. And it doesn't allow you to violate existing instructions. It will be interesting for me to see if this is confirmed when we get to the NT. Make sure you remind me if it doesn't support these ideas.
Why not? you ask. Good question - all I can come up with is that its used retrospectively and not prospectively. And it doesn't allow you to violate existing instructions. It will be interesting for me to see if this is confirmed when we get to the NT. Make sure you remind me if it doesn't support these ideas.
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ttf_John the Theologian
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Quote from: drizabone on Jun 29, 2017, 02:30PMsometimes. but I think mainly in Jesus case.
The 20th C church has a couple of views on this:
- a literal interpretation that requires the formation of the actual state of Israel. This has been partially fulfilled, but Israel hasn't repented or been restored to the place of primacy among the nations.
- God finally dumps Israel because of their unfaithfulness and replaces them with the church (in this case faithful christians not including the unrepentant people who have just used the church for their own benefit) and they take the place if Israel in prophecy.
There are some variations on these themes and also the possibility that a form of both will happen
"Dumping Israel" is not quite how those who don't see a literal Israel as fulling these text would put it. Most would rather say that the Nt expands the notion of Israel to include all believers-- in the biblical sense which gets defined Christologically in the New Testament-- and that the New Testament people of God includes both believers of both Jewish and non-Jewish ethnicity. Where it divides is whether the number of Jewish believers is large or small and whether there is still to be a massive influx of repentant and believing people of Jewish ethnicity in the future.
The 20th C church has a couple of views on this:
- a literal interpretation that requires the formation of the actual state of Israel. This has been partially fulfilled, but Israel hasn't repented or been restored to the place of primacy among the nations.
- God finally dumps Israel because of their unfaithfulness and replaces them with the church (in this case faithful christians not including the unrepentant people who have just used the church for their own benefit) and they take the place if Israel in prophecy.
There are some variations on these themes and also the possibility that a form of both will happen
"Dumping Israel" is not quite how those who don't see a literal Israel as fulling these text would put it. Most would rather say that the Nt expands the notion of Israel to include all believers-- in the biblical sense which gets defined Christologically in the New Testament-- and that the New Testament people of God includes both believers of both Jewish and non-Jewish ethnicity. Where it divides is whether the number of Jewish believers is large or small and whether there is still to be a massive influx of repentant and believing people of Jewish ethnicity in the future.
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ttf_drizabone
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Ezekiel 21 text
Highlights
- More details on the Judgement of the People and the Ammorites
Summary
- God sends another message through Ezekiel: he (God) is going to draw his sword and kill people in Jerusalem and Israel, both righteous and wicked.
- God instructs the Ezekiel to groan. And when the people who ask him why he is groaning he is to say that he's groaning over the bad news God brought them, which is now being fulfilled.
- God sends another message: that his sword is sharpened, ready for the slaughter of the people of Israel and their princes.
- How can the people rejoice, asks Ezekiel, when they've failed to adopt God's rules and discipline?
- God says he'll satisfy his fury against the people, setting a sword against all the gates of the city and killing many people.
- God orders Ezekiel to mark out two roads for the Babylonians to invade, along with a signpost, leading them both to Rabbah (where the Ammorites live) and to Jerusalem in Judah.
- The King of Babylon will stand at the crossroads between these two paths, consulting his magical methods of divination.
- They'll make him go towards Jerusalem and prepare for a siege.
- The people won't believe this, but it'll definitely happen.
- Everyone will be punished for their sins, and their wicked prince will be brought down, just as the city is turned to ruins.
- God also announces the coming destruction of the Ammorites.
Questions and Observations
1) God is going to punish the whole nation regardless of the behaviour of individuals. From our perspective, that's not fair. Is it just?
2) Ezekiel has to set up signposts telling the Babylonians the way to Jerusalem. Is he a spy?
3) The wicked prince was Zedekiah I think. See Jeremiah.
Highlights
- More details on the Judgement of the People and the Ammorites
Summary
- God sends another message through Ezekiel: he (God) is going to draw his sword and kill people in Jerusalem and Israel, both righteous and wicked.
- God instructs the Ezekiel to groan. And when the people who ask him why he is groaning he is to say that he's groaning over the bad news God brought them, which is now being fulfilled.
- God sends another message: that his sword is sharpened, ready for the slaughter of the people of Israel and their princes.
- How can the people rejoice, asks Ezekiel, when they've failed to adopt God's rules and discipline?
- God says he'll satisfy his fury against the people, setting a sword against all the gates of the city and killing many people.
- God orders Ezekiel to mark out two roads for the Babylonians to invade, along with a signpost, leading them both to Rabbah (where the Ammorites live) and to Jerusalem in Judah.
- The King of Babylon will stand at the crossroads between these two paths, consulting his magical methods of divination.
- They'll make him go towards Jerusalem and prepare for a siege.
- The people won't believe this, but it'll definitely happen.
- Everyone will be punished for their sins, and their wicked prince will be brought down, just as the city is turned to ruins.
- God also announces the coming destruction of the Ammorites.
Questions and Observations
1) God is going to punish the whole nation regardless of the behaviour of individuals. From our perspective, that's not fair. Is it just?
2) Ezekiel has to set up signposts telling the Babylonians the way to Jerusalem. Is he a spy?
3) The wicked prince was Zedekiah I think. See Jeremiah.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: John the Theologian on Jun 30, 2017, 09:08PM"Dumping Israel" is not quite how those who don't see a literal Israel as fulling these text would put it. Most would rather say that the Nt expands the notion of Israel to include all believers-- in the biblical sense which gets defined Christologically in the New Testament-- and that the New Testament people of God includes both believers of both Jewish and non-Jewish ethnicity. Where it divides is whether the number of Jewish believers is large or small and whether there is still to be a massive influx of repentant and believing people of Jewish ethnicity in the future.
I was just being casual.
I was just being casual.
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ttf_drizabone
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Ezekiel 22 text
Highlights
- Everyone is guilty
Summary
- God condemns Jerusalem as "the bloody city": its citizens have shed innocent blood and worshipped idols. They'll become a disgrace in the eyes of all the other nations.
- The princes of Israel have killed the innocent, and the people have mistreated their parents, immigrants, orphans, and widows.
- God goes on to attack the people for various sins: adultery, rape, incest, bribery, violating the Sabbath, shady financial dealings.
- God claps his hands angrily at all the blood they've spilled and dishonest gains they've made.
- He'll scatter them through the land and even make himself profaned in the sight of the nations, because of how terribly the people have been disgraced.
- Instead of being silver, bronze, iron, tin, and lead in the eyes of God, the people appear like dross - worthless metal melted down in a smelter.
- God will angrily put them back in the smelter and then melt them all over again.
- The land of Israel needs to be cleansed; its princes are like raging lions murdering the innocent and creating widows.
- The priests have ruined things too, mixing the holy and the everyday, and not teaching the difference between what's clean and unclean.
- And it's not just princes and priests: the officials kill people for money, the prophets lie, and the people themselves oppress the poor and rob immigrants. - Even normal people are robbing and extorting.
- God couldn't find one person to stand in front of the broken wall of the city and repair it (by repenting and turning to good).
- So God is judging everyone and punishing them with wrath.
Questions and Observations
1) nothing obscure here?
Highlights
- Everyone is guilty
Summary
- God condemns Jerusalem as "the bloody city": its citizens have shed innocent blood and worshipped idols. They'll become a disgrace in the eyes of all the other nations.
- The princes of Israel have killed the innocent, and the people have mistreated their parents, immigrants, orphans, and widows.
- God goes on to attack the people for various sins: adultery, rape, incest, bribery, violating the Sabbath, shady financial dealings.
- God claps his hands angrily at all the blood they've spilled and dishonest gains they've made.
- He'll scatter them through the land and even make himself profaned in the sight of the nations, because of how terribly the people have been disgraced.
- Instead of being silver, bronze, iron, tin, and lead in the eyes of God, the people appear like dross - worthless metal melted down in a smelter.
- God will angrily put them back in the smelter and then melt them all over again.
- The land of Israel needs to be cleansed; its princes are like raging lions murdering the innocent and creating widows.
- The priests have ruined things too, mixing the holy and the everyday, and not teaching the difference between what's clean and unclean.
- And it's not just princes and priests: the officials kill people for money, the prophets lie, and the people themselves oppress the poor and rob immigrants. - Even normal people are robbing and extorting.
- God couldn't find one person to stand in front of the broken wall of the city and repair it (by repenting and turning to good).
- So God is judging everyone and punishing them with wrath.
Questions and Observations
1) nothing obscure here?
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ttf_John the Theologian
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Quote from: drizabone on Jul 03, 2017, 02:09AMI was just being casual.
I understand.
The theologian in me just needed to be more specific.
I understand.
The theologian in me just needed to be more specific.
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ttf_drizabone
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Ezekiel 23 text
Highlights
- The Lord's plan to cure the people of idolatry
Summary
- God says that once upon a time there were two sisters who were the daughters of one mother. They were named Oholah (Samaria) and Oholibah (Jerusalem).
- They both grew up to be prostitutes and sold themselves to Egyptian gods who fondled their breasts.
- God married them and they bore sons and daughters for him.
- But Oholah took a fancy to handsome Assyrian horsemen and prostituted herself to them like she'd done in Egypt. So God let the Assyrians kill her children and strip her naked.
- Oholibah is the same as her sister, except she doesn't just commit adultery with Assyrians but with Babylonians as well. She sends messengers to the Babylonians and they come and defile her with their lusts.
- God turns in disgust from her, but Oholibah continues to step up her "whorings," remembering how her lovers in Egypt had penises like donkeys and ejaculations like horses.
- In jealousy, God is going to send all the former lovers of Oholibah to come attack her. Babylonian and Assyrian horsemen will all ride down and hack off her nose and ears, strip her clothes off, and kill her sons and daughters.
- God tells Judah and Jerusalem that they'll drink the same cup of wrath as their sister Oholibah, suffering at the hands of her former lovers for her idolatries and injustices. She'll drink the cup of wrath until it's empty and cut her breasts with the shattered pieces of the cup.
- God tells Ezekiel to judge Oholah and Oholibah, condemning them for adultery, breaking the Sabbath, and sacrificing their children to idols.
- Israel even committed adultery with men from distant lands involving an elaborate sequence with beds, bathing, and beyond. Raucous partiers and drunk people put bracelets and beautiful crowns on the heads of women.
- So the sisters keep on committing adultery, but righteous judges will judge them accordingly.
- This will put an end to the nation's lewdness and it will know that God is Yahweh
Questions and Observations
1) Who were Ohala and Oholia? I propose:
- Ohola refers to Samaria is the Northern Kingdom aka Israel, which was taken into exile by Assyria.
- Oholiah refers to the Jerusalem (aka Judah) who are taken into exile by Babylon
- it is possibly the leaders of those kingdoms. These were the people who did the whoring ...
- their children are the people of those kingdoms.
2) the sisters sons and daughters were punished too: is this a case of punishing innocent children?
Highlights
- The Lord's plan to cure the people of idolatry
Summary
- God says that once upon a time there were two sisters who were the daughters of one mother. They were named Oholah (Samaria) and Oholibah (Jerusalem).
- They both grew up to be prostitutes and sold themselves to Egyptian gods who fondled their breasts.
- God married them and they bore sons and daughters for him.
- But Oholah took a fancy to handsome Assyrian horsemen and prostituted herself to them like she'd done in Egypt. So God let the Assyrians kill her children and strip her naked.
- Oholibah is the same as her sister, except she doesn't just commit adultery with Assyrians but with Babylonians as well. She sends messengers to the Babylonians and they come and defile her with their lusts.
- God turns in disgust from her, but Oholibah continues to step up her "whorings," remembering how her lovers in Egypt had penises like donkeys and ejaculations like horses.
- In jealousy, God is going to send all the former lovers of Oholibah to come attack her. Babylonian and Assyrian horsemen will all ride down and hack off her nose and ears, strip her clothes off, and kill her sons and daughters.
- God tells Judah and Jerusalem that they'll drink the same cup of wrath as their sister Oholibah, suffering at the hands of her former lovers for her idolatries and injustices. She'll drink the cup of wrath until it's empty and cut her breasts with the shattered pieces of the cup.
- God tells Ezekiel to judge Oholah and Oholibah, condemning them for adultery, breaking the Sabbath, and sacrificing their children to idols.
- Israel even committed adultery with men from distant lands involving an elaborate sequence with beds, bathing, and beyond. Raucous partiers and drunk people put bracelets and beautiful crowns on the heads of women.
- So the sisters keep on committing adultery, but righteous judges will judge them accordingly.
- This will put an end to the nation's lewdness and it will know that God is Yahweh
Questions and Observations
1) Who were Ohala and Oholia? I propose:
- Ohola refers to Samaria is the Northern Kingdom aka Israel, which was taken into exile by Assyria.
- Oholiah refers to the Jerusalem (aka Judah) who are taken into exile by Babylon
- it is possibly the leaders of those kingdoms. These were the people who did the whoring ...
- their children are the people of those kingdoms.
2) the sisters sons and daughters were punished too: is this a case of punishing innocent children?
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ttf_drizabone
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Ezekiel 24 text
Highlights
- Spoiled sacrifice and a dead prophets wife
Summary
- As the king of Babylon lays siege to Jerusalem, God tells Ezekiel to relate an allegory to the people.
- The allegory takes the form of a command: set a pot with water in it over a fire and put in choice pieces of meat from the best member of the flock.
- But, God says, no matter how choice the pieces of meat are, it's just not gonna cut it.
- No matter how you heat this pot, says God, the rust won't disappear from it
- You're not going to be cleansed until my judgement is complete
- Next, God says he's going to kill Ezekiel's wife. He orders him not to show mourning, only to be sad inwardly.
- So God kills Ezekiel's wife as a symbolic act. To make a point. Right.
- People ask Ezekiel why he isn't doing the traditional acts of mourning. Ezekiel says it's because God's going to destroy their city and kill their children and they won't be able to do the traditional form of mourning either.
- So Ezekiel's just demonstrating what they'll need to do. It stinks being the first out of the gate.
- When all this happens, a messenger will report it to these people (who will be fleeing Jerusalem or something), and they'll all be horrified that God is present and trying to kill them.
Questions and Observations
1) Ezekiel was a Temple priest, so he was probably in charge of tending to pots cooking sacrificial meat. Basically, the whole "meat in the pot" image would've symbolized a divine offering prepared by the people for their God, just as it was in the Temple.
2) Even though Israel might be trying to put their best foot forward (collecting the choicest pieces of meat), their corruption makes their piety useless.
3) is it any use to carry out religious ceremonies if you're not right with God?
4) Killing Ezekiel's wife is not very nice: to Ezekiel or his wife. Does this make God a murderer? How should Ezekiel respond?
Highlights
- Spoiled sacrifice and a dead prophets wife
Summary
- As the king of Babylon lays siege to Jerusalem, God tells Ezekiel to relate an allegory to the people.
- The allegory takes the form of a command: set a pot with water in it over a fire and put in choice pieces of meat from the best member of the flock.
- But, God says, no matter how choice the pieces of meat are, it's just not gonna cut it.
- No matter how you heat this pot, says God, the rust won't disappear from it
- You're not going to be cleansed until my judgement is complete
- Next, God says he's going to kill Ezekiel's wife. He orders him not to show mourning, only to be sad inwardly.
- So God kills Ezekiel's wife as a symbolic act. To make a point. Right.
- People ask Ezekiel why he isn't doing the traditional acts of mourning. Ezekiel says it's because God's going to destroy their city and kill their children and they won't be able to do the traditional form of mourning either.
- So Ezekiel's just demonstrating what they'll need to do. It stinks being the first out of the gate.
- When all this happens, a messenger will report it to these people (who will be fleeing Jerusalem or something), and they'll all be horrified that God is present and trying to kill them.
Questions and Observations
1) Ezekiel was a Temple priest, so he was probably in charge of tending to pots cooking sacrificial meat. Basically, the whole "meat in the pot" image would've symbolized a divine offering prepared by the people for their God, just as it was in the Temple.
2) Even though Israel might be trying to put their best foot forward (collecting the choicest pieces of meat), their corruption makes their piety useless.
3) is it any use to carry out religious ceremonies if you're not right with God?
4) Killing Ezekiel's wife is not very nice: to Ezekiel or his wife. Does this make God a murderer? How should Ezekiel respond?
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ttf_BillO
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Let me do 25.
One of my favorites.
One of my favorites.
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ttf_drizabone
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ok. And we know that The Lord doesn't like fossils
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ttf_BillO
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Quote from: BillO on Jul 05, 2017, 04:56AM?
Preempting snarkiness I presume ... he's messing with you.
Preempting snarkiness I presume ... he's messing with you.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Jul 04, 2017, 06:25PMEzekiel 23 text
remembering how her lovers in Egypt had penises like donkeys and ejaculations like horses.
Amusingly graphic stuff from Ezekiel here... They don't preach on this verse in churches, I bet! These guys were really obsessed with sexual imagery...
Quote from: drizabone on Jul 04, 2017, 06:25PM1) Who were Ohala and Oholia? I propose:
- Ohola refers to Samaria is the Northern Kingdom aka Israel, which was taken into exile by Assyria.
- Oholiah refers to the Jerusalem (aka Judah) who are taken into exile by Babylon
- it is possibly the leaders of those kingdoms. These were the people who did the whoring ...
- their children are the people of those kingdoms.
Yes, it's clear that Oholah and Oholibah are Samaria and Jerusalem, and by extension Israel and Judah. Their Wiki page supplies some etymological thoughts - notably that these names are puns in Hebrew - "Her tent" and "My tent is in her". Not sure how these would function as puns really - no double meaning is listed?
remembering how her lovers in Egypt had penises like donkeys and ejaculations like horses.
Amusingly graphic stuff from Ezekiel here... They don't preach on this verse in churches, I bet! These guys were really obsessed with sexual imagery...
Quote from: drizabone on Jul 04, 2017, 06:25PM1) Who were Ohala and Oholia? I propose:
- Ohola refers to Samaria is the Northern Kingdom aka Israel, which was taken into exile by Assyria.
- Oholiah refers to the Jerusalem (aka Judah) who are taken into exile by Babylon
- it is possibly the leaders of those kingdoms. These were the people who did the whoring ...
- their children are the people of those kingdoms.
Yes, it's clear that Oholah and Oholibah are Samaria and Jerusalem, and by extension Israel and Judah. Their Wiki page supplies some etymological thoughts - notably that these names are puns in Hebrew - "Her tent" and "My tent is in her". Not sure how these would function as puns really - no double meaning is listed?
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Jul 04, 2017, 09:05PMEzekiel 24 text
Year 9, 10th month - so 588 BC. This ties up with the final siege of Jerusalem.
Quote from: drizabone on Jul 04, 2017, 09:05PM3) is it any use to carry out religious ceremonies if you're not right with God?
It depends on:
a) What one thinks the point of the ceremony is;
b) What "right with God" means.
There may be a use to a particular faith in unfaithful people performing the ritual in that it normalises it and encourages the faithful.
Quote from: drizabone on Jul 04, 2017, 09:05PM4) Killing Ezekiel's wife is not very nice: to Ezekiel or his wife. Does this make God a murderer? How should Ezekiel respond?
Is this deed (reported incredibly casually and incidentally) how Yahweh is perceived to act in general in these books? It doesn't seem so to me - there seems no purpose to it - and the bible usually finds a better rationalisation for miserable things than this. Do we wonder if perhaps Ezekiel's wife just died out of nowhere and he made use of that sad fact in his prophetic career, ascribing it to prophecy when it was just a human tragedy?
Year 9, 10th month - so 588 BC. This ties up with the final siege of Jerusalem.
Quote from: drizabone on Jul 04, 2017, 09:05PM3) is it any use to carry out religious ceremonies if you're not right with God?
It depends on:
a) What one thinks the point of the ceremony is;
b) What "right with God" means.
There may be a use to a particular faith in unfaithful people performing the ritual in that it normalises it and encourages the faithful.
Quote from: drizabone on Jul 04, 2017, 09:05PM4) Killing Ezekiel's wife is not very nice: to Ezekiel or his wife. Does this make God a murderer? How should Ezekiel respond?
Is this deed (reported incredibly casually and incidentally) how Yahweh is perceived to act in general in these books? It doesn't seem so to me - there seems no purpose to it - and the bible usually finds a better rationalisation for miserable things than this. Do we wonder if perhaps Ezekiel's wife just died out of nowhere and he made use of that sad fact in his prophetic career, ascribing it to prophecy when it was just a human tragedy?
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ttf_BillO
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Quote from: Baron von Bone on Jul 05, 2017, 05:02AM
Preempting snarkiness I presume ... he's messing with you.
Snarkiness there will undoubtedly be, but I'll leave it to the comments section. Anyway - I won't be able to get to this until tomorrow.
Preempting snarkiness I presume ... he's messing with you.
Snarkiness there will undoubtedly be, but I'll leave it to the comments section. Anyway - I won't be able to get to this until tomorrow.
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ttf_drizabone
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Jul 05, 2017, 05:46AMIt depends on:
a) What one thinks the point of the ceremony is;
b) What "right with God" means.
There may be a use to a particular faith in unfaithful people performing the ritual in that it normalises it and encourages the faithful.
I was hoping to start a discussion about whether ceremonies have any spiritual effectiveness if they are practices by unfaithful people.
No one was interested.
QuoteIs this deed (reported incredibly casually and incidentally) how Yahweh is perceived to act in general in these books? It doesn't seem so to me - there seems no purpose to it - and the bible usually finds a better rationalisation for miserable things than this. Do we wonder if perhaps Ezekiel's wife just died out of nowhere and he made use of that sad fact in his prophetic career, ascribing it to prophecy when it was just a human tragedy?
No, I don't wonder about how it would look from an atheistic PoV. There's too much to think about from my PoV
Some things that are running through my mind:
No Yahweh is not generally perceived as acting like this.
It is shocking! confronting. Much more so than when he mistreats fossils, I can understand that, they deserved it but not Ezekiel and his wife.
And reporting it so gratuitously.
I can see how the "matter of fact" reporting of the incident is consistent with the message God is presenting - of not mourning for Jerusalem.
I understand intellectually that God gives and takes life all the time, in every case of a birth or death, and I don't feel so affronted when it happens normally and I don't know the reason. But when he rubs my face in it, so to speak, then it seems unreasonable.
This reminds me that God manages our lives all the time, how he pleases.
That he does it for his purposes and not ours.
Incidentally I just noticed that Ezekiel started speaking since again. That's probably significant. Apart from God messing with Ezekiel again.
a) What one thinks the point of the ceremony is;
b) What "right with God" means.
There may be a use to a particular faith in unfaithful people performing the ritual in that it normalises it and encourages the faithful.
I was hoping to start a discussion about whether ceremonies have any spiritual effectiveness if they are practices by unfaithful people.
No one was interested.
QuoteIs this deed (reported incredibly casually and incidentally) how Yahweh is perceived to act in general in these books? It doesn't seem so to me - there seems no purpose to it - and the bible usually finds a better rationalisation for miserable things than this. Do we wonder if perhaps Ezekiel's wife just died out of nowhere and he made use of that sad fact in his prophetic career, ascribing it to prophecy when it was just a human tragedy?
No, I don't wonder about how it would look from an atheistic PoV. There's too much to think about from my PoV
Some things that are running through my mind:
No Yahweh is not generally perceived as acting like this.
It is shocking! confronting. Much more so than when he mistreats fossils, I can understand that, they deserved it but not Ezekiel and his wife.
And reporting it so gratuitously.
I can see how the "matter of fact" reporting of the incident is consistent with the message God is presenting - of not mourning for Jerusalem.
I understand intellectually that God gives and takes life all the time, in every case of a birth or death, and I don't feel so affronted when it happens normally and I don't know the reason. But when he rubs my face in it, so to speak, then it seems unreasonable.
This reminds me that God manages our lives all the time, how he pleases.
That he does it for his purposes and not ours.
Incidentally I just noticed that Ezekiel started speaking since again. That's probably significant. Apart from God messing with Ezekiel again.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Jul 05, 2017, 05:35AMAmusingly graphic stuff from Ezekiel here... They don't preach on this verse in churches, I bet! These guys were really obsessed with sexual imagery...
I don't remember this chapter having been preached on. I don't think we've done Ezekiel at all to be honest. I think Isaiah is normally the prophet of choice for sermon series.
I don't remember this chapter having been preached on. I don't think we've done Ezekiel at all to be honest. I think Isaiah is normally the prophet of choice for sermon series.
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ttf_BillO
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Ezekiel 25 text
Highlights
- God delivers prophesies against the people of Jordan and Philista.
Summary
- Prophesies go out against Ammon, Edom, Moab and Philistia
- God does not like how any of them have behaved with respect to Judah
- God will hand over all the lands and people of Jordan to the Babylonians
- As well, Edom is to suffer isolation, desolation and the sword of Israel
- The Philistines and Cherethites will be met with great vengeance and wrathful rebukes.
Questions and Observations
1) Lots of Gods grace and love is being poured out in this one.
2) I guess we should add Infinitely vengeful to any accurate description of God
3) It would appear that the Philistines are a real thorn in Gods side. One wonders why 'he' created them in the first place. Theyve been nothing but trouble for Israel right from the beginning and are still at it now!! I guess God's bullying did not work after all.
4) Besides their treatment of Judah, God states hes taking these actions against the above mentioned peoples to show them 'hes' the Lord. A mainstay behavior of the typical bully. I have to ask though, God has been doling out vengeance and wrath since the get-go and it so far has not proved to be an ineffective way to get his creations to do 'his' bidding, so why does 'he' persist? How about trying patience, education and positive reinforcement?
5) I'm still waiting to see some of Gods acts of love and benevolence. Perhaps theyll show up in later books.
Highlights
- God delivers prophesies against the people of Jordan and Philista.
Summary
- Prophesies go out against Ammon, Edom, Moab and Philistia
- God does not like how any of them have behaved with respect to Judah
- God will hand over all the lands and people of Jordan to the Babylonians
- As well, Edom is to suffer isolation, desolation and the sword of Israel
- The Philistines and Cherethites will be met with great vengeance and wrathful rebukes.
Questions and Observations
1) Lots of Gods grace and love is being poured out in this one.
2) I guess we should add Infinitely vengeful to any accurate description of God
3) It would appear that the Philistines are a real thorn in Gods side. One wonders why 'he' created them in the first place. Theyve been nothing but trouble for Israel right from the beginning and are still at it now!! I guess God's bullying did not work after all.
4) Besides their treatment of Judah, God states hes taking these actions against the above mentioned peoples to show them 'hes' the Lord. A mainstay behavior of the typical bully. I have to ask though, God has been doling out vengeance and wrath since the get-go and it so far has not proved to be an ineffective way to get his creations to do 'his' bidding, so why does 'he' persist? How about trying patience, education and positive reinforcement?
5) I'm still waiting to see some of Gods acts of love and benevolence. Perhaps theyll show up in later books.
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ttf_BillO
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God's just mean.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: drizabone on Jul 06, 2017, 02:49AMI don't remember this chapter having been preached on. I don't think we've done Ezekiel at all to be honest. I think Isaiah is normally the prophet of choice for sermon series.
Our lectionary walks us through the Bible every three years and requires us to read some pretty obscure stuff. (nonliturgical churches won't have a clue what I'm talking about)
But yes, it would be pretty rare to hear it preached on.
Our lectionary walks us through the Bible every three years and requires us to read some pretty obscure stuff. (nonliturgical churches won't have a clue what I'm talking about)
But yes, it would be pretty rare to hear it preached on.