Quote from: MoominDave on May 05, 2017, 01:30AMBut yet he was a confidant and advisor to kings, someone whose words were written down by such historically notable people that we're talking about them most of 3,000 years later. This wasn't some penniless street ranter.
He was a confidant and advisor to Hezekiah who mostly followed God, but would have been a irritant and critic of the other kings who didn't. For those kings and for the nobles he was denouncing he was probably considered a ranter and may have been peniless and persecuted.
Either way he wasn't a politician. The closest secular label I can think of would be a religious commentator who had great influence.
QuoteOne of Jesus's main concerns was about the equitable treatment of all people. He disdained those that followed money, and glorified those of low station. Isaiah's cares were all about the maintenance of power in his religion, and the maintenance of his state as a bolster to that. If they were standing together in a parliament, they would be on opposing benches, for all that they have Yahweh in common. Just as many of our modern politicians of both left and right share Christian world-views.
I would expect them to not be in either mainstream party. They would both be too radical and uncompomising in their values for either bench. Neither was interested in courting public opinion so would not have succeeded as politicians or been interested in it. Yahweh was their priority. But they had different messages to a nation in different circumstances. Jesus was very concerned about the maintenance of his religion (or I as would say, in getting people to follow God) and he condemned the corrupt leaders of Israel and supported the poor as did Isaiah. Isaiah spoke of comfort provided by a servant, Jesus said I'm him. Isaiah told of judgement on the nations, Jesus spoke of judgement on sin.
QuoteThat one's passed me by as a player thus far. Just listening to the only YouTube version now. Redhead in general doesn't tend to hit my spot, I must say. If I had to pick a single SA composer of his era for listening pleasure, it would definitely be Ray Steadman-Allen. For example, his Seascapes is magnificent.
RSA as we called him was in Australia when I was young and I played under him at music camps. That was great. He wrote lots of music for the Salvation Army and I played most of them. I don't remember the names much, mostly just snippets of the music. One that I used to like was "In quiet pastures" its an arrangement of salvation army songs and has great use of colour and harmony.
Quotev23 interested me:
Tell us what is to come hereafter,
that we may know that you are gods;
I've had the feeling through this book that when I've mentioned the propensity of Isaiah to make "divinely-inspired" predictions about the future, people have been shuffling their feet and looking around embarrassedly, as though they'd rather he hadn't. This verse tells us as clearly as it is possible to do that these people held the knowing of the future to be an integral part of the object of any worship system worth worshipping. Modern Christians are rather less into this (sensibly, in my view). It is intriguing to trace the evolution of what is held to be definite through the lifetime of a religion.
I hope that wasn't me looking embarrassed.
The place of prophecy in the church today is controversial. Some churches claim that it still happens, others are sceptical and others say it finished when the bible was written and the canon was completed. I'm sceptical: I think that God has revealed all the general stuff he needs us to know about in the bible but that doesn't mean that he still couldn't have more and so he could still speak through people as he did in the past but I would want the see the same rules of confirmation that the bible set in Deuteronomy before I would believe them.
QuoteYes, this seems very clear, doesn't it? Before this, I hadn't realised to what extent Jesus was leaning on the words of Isaiah, despite their philosophical differences. It's striking that such an ardent traditionalist, one who died over 6 centuries years before the birth of the latter figure could have inspired such a radical mover.
But then, I ask myself... Isaiah was pushing Yahweh at a time when Yahweh was only one among several widely-pursued religious interests of Israel and Judah. Am I seeing him as more reactionary than he actually was - did he too have a radical streak?
I think I've covered this in my first point.
Ironically I think that it was Jesus that inspired Isaiah.
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ttf_drizabone
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 05, 2017, 01:46AMIsaiah 43 text
Highlights
- Yahweh 4 Israel
Summary
- Yahweh will protect Israel
- And regather its children from diaspora
- See Yahweh - he is the tops
- Yahweh sees that he has not been honoured as earlier books requested
- But is willing to overlook this
Questions and Observations
1) Why is he willing to overlook this? He often hasn't been, in the story told.
He redeems them because they are precious to him, not because they deserve it and despite the fact that they don't, because he has chosen them and made promises to them that he will keep, because he want's too.
Quote2) It's striking how writers in Judah refer to themselves as "Israel". A strange old circumstance that leads to them putting their national rivals on a pedestal like this.
Israel was the name of the united kingdom and the name of the northern kingdom. I think that Isaiah is using Israel here to refer to a kingdom that will be united because God will regather them all together.
3) This chapter (v10) explicitly states that Yahweh is the only god - or at least the oldest, and one that will outlive all others. Compare with the many references to other gods found elsewhere in the bible.
[/quote]
"Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me."
As you say compare the many refs to other god's in the bible. My commentary says Isaiah is arguing that there is only 1 God. I'm not sure if that's right but I can't read Hebrew. Isaiah uses figures of speech a lot so is this one of them? Or is it literal? That would be problematic for Christian theology so I'm guessing its picture language for saying other god's are nothing in comparison to the Real God. Same as the rest of 10-13. He is tops.
Highlights
- Yahweh 4 Israel
Summary
- Yahweh will protect Israel
- And regather its children from diaspora
- See Yahweh - he is the tops
- Yahweh sees that he has not been honoured as earlier books requested
- But is willing to overlook this
Questions and Observations
1) Why is he willing to overlook this? He often hasn't been, in the story told.
He redeems them because they are precious to him, not because they deserve it and despite the fact that they don't, because he has chosen them and made promises to them that he will keep, because he want's too.
Quote2) It's striking how writers in Judah refer to themselves as "Israel". A strange old circumstance that leads to them putting their national rivals on a pedestal like this.
Israel was the name of the united kingdom and the name of the northern kingdom. I think that Isaiah is using Israel here to refer to a kingdom that will be united because God will regather them all together.
3) This chapter (v10) explicitly states that Yahweh is the only god - or at least the oldest, and one that will outlive all others. Compare with the many references to other gods found elsewhere in the bible.
[/quote]
"Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me."
As you say compare the many refs to other god's in the bible. My commentary says Isaiah is arguing that there is only 1 God. I'm not sure if that's right but I can't read Hebrew. Isaiah uses figures of speech a lot so is this one of them? Or is it literal? That would be problematic for Christian theology so I'm guessing its picture language for saying other god's are nothing in comparison to the Real God. Same as the rest of 10-13. He is tops.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 05, 2017, 01:59AMIsaiah 44 text
Highlights
- More extolling of Yahweh's mightiness
Summary
- Yahweh provides streams
I think the point of the first paragraph is that providing the thirsty land with water is a picture of what God is going to do for Israel.
Quote - Yahweh is the only god
has he gotten rid of all the other gods. Maybe there was a rebellion in heaven.
Quote - Idols are temporary and should not be worshipped
- Yahweh does everything...
- ...including directing Cyrus
Questions and Observations
1) Hey! Here's something interesting. We assume that "Cyrus" refers to Cyrus the Great, the exile-ending Persian king, who lived some 150 years after Isaiah. If we have at all an evidence-based head on, we must conclude from this that we are reading writing that was written long after the historical Isaiah lived. As we saw in ch 42 (vv24-25), the writer is now talking about the destruction of their country in the past tense, whereas there had previously been much made in this book of it being in the future. The argument for a division of this book into time-separated authors starts to become clear, with this section being pennable at the earliest shortly before Cyrus permitted the exiles to return.
We get excited about completely different parts of this chapter.
My quick summary of the chapter is
- God chose and formed Israel
- God is THE One
- Idols are made by people out of things, so don't worship them
- God formed Israel and made things and people and makes them do things
Highlights
- More extolling of Yahweh's mightiness
Summary
- Yahweh provides streams
I think the point of the first paragraph is that providing the thirsty land with water is a picture of what God is going to do for Israel.
Quote - Yahweh is the only god
has he gotten rid of all the other gods. Maybe there was a rebellion in heaven.
Quote - Idols are temporary and should not be worshipped
- Yahweh does everything...
- ...including directing Cyrus
Questions and Observations
1) Hey! Here's something interesting. We assume that "Cyrus" refers to Cyrus the Great, the exile-ending Persian king, who lived some 150 years after Isaiah. If we have at all an evidence-based head on, we must conclude from this that we are reading writing that was written long after the historical Isaiah lived. As we saw in ch 42 (vv24-25), the writer is now talking about the destruction of their country in the past tense, whereas there had previously been much made in this book of it being in the future. The argument for a division of this book into time-separated authors starts to become clear, with this section being pennable at the earliest shortly before Cyrus permitted the exiles to return.
We get excited about completely different parts of this chapter.
My quick summary of the chapter is
- God chose and formed Israel
- God is THE One
- Idols are made by people out of things, so don't worship them
- God formed Israel and made things and people and makes them do things
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Quote from: John the Theologian on May 04, 2017, 10:18AMBest movie usage of this text is in Chariots of Fire where Eric Liddell is seen reading from the 2nd half of this text in church on a Sunday morning while the Olympic games he won't participate in on that day-- Sunday-- are going on.
Great creative use of the text showing young athletes falling while the voice-over reads the verse about young men growing tired and weary.
Quite an effective use of the text in one of my favorite movies, even if I do know that this scene, like some others in the film, has some Hollywood "license" in it.
That's all about three of conservative Christians' favorite things ... Jews, sports, and persecution.
Heh.
Great creative use of the text showing young athletes falling while the voice-over reads the verse about young men growing tired and weary.
Quite an effective use of the text in one of my favorite movies, even if I do know that this scene, like some others in the film, has some Hollywood "license" in it.
That's all about three of conservative Christians' favorite things ... Jews, sports, and persecution.
Heh.
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 05, 2017, 02:05AMIsaiah 45 text
...
2) I wonder how Cyrus felt about being portrayed by his subjects as a tool of their foreign god.
He was probably egocentric so maybe:
I`m the greatest. Even your god needs me.
...
2) I wonder how Cyrus felt about being portrayed by his subjects as a tool of their foreign god.
He was probably egocentric so maybe:
I`m the greatest. Even your god needs me.
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Isaiah 47 text
Highlights
- The end of Babylon
Summary
- God calls Babylon a "virgin daughter," and dumps her off her throne to grind meal and tramp about through the rivers naked and ashamed. God taking vengeance.
- Now, even though God is the one who gave up Israel to Babylon in the first place, they took it to far and thought this would last forever: so Babylon is going to sit in shame and darkness, instead of being the richly rewarded mistress of all the nations.
- Unable to enjoy its fine pleasures anymore, Babylon will know what it's like to be a widow and lose its children.
- They thought no-one was watching as they performed their wicked deeds, but God was and he's not happy with their selfish behavior. He's sending a calamity that they won't be able to charm away.
- The disaster that's coming can't be held off by spells and enchantments, but God challenges them to try anyway. Maybe they will succeed. But no! They're actually going to get consumed like stubble in a fire.
- There's no one who can save them.
Questions and Observations
1) Someone is still using dramatic mataphors, just like Isaiah did in the first half of the book.
Highlights
- The end of Babylon
Summary
- God calls Babylon a "virgin daughter," and dumps her off her throne to grind meal and tramp about through the rivers naked and ashamed. God taking vengeance.
- Now, even though God is the one who gave up Israel to Babylon in the first place, they took it to far and thought this would last forever: so Babylon is going to sit in shame and darkness, instead of being the richly rewarded mistress of all the nations.
- Unable to enjoy its fine pleasures anymore, Babylon will know what it's like to be a widow and lose its children.
- They thought no-one was watching as they performed their wicked deeds, but God was and he's not happy with their selfish behavior. He's sending a calamity that they won't be able to charm away.
- The disaster that's coming can't be held off by spells and enchantments, but God challenges them to try anyway. Maybe they will succeed. But no! They're actually going to get consumed like stubble in a fire.
- There's no one who can save them.
Questions and Observations
1) Someone is still using dramatic mataphors, just like Isaiah did in the first half of the book.
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Quote from: Baron von Bone on Yesterday at 07:28 AMpersecution.
Did someone say "percussion"? I'll have you know this is a TROMBONE forum. Back on topic, you varlet.
Did someone say "percussion"? I'll have you know this is a TROMBONE forum. Back on topic, you varlet.
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ttf_drizabone
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Isaiah 46 text
Highlights
- The helpless gods of Babylon
Summary
- the Babylonian gods are burdens
- God bears Israel
- None of them are his equal
- Remember God, the one who declares the end from the beginning
- God will accomplish his purpose and save Israel for his glory
Questions and Observations
1) Isaiah is really sticking it to those idols.
2) I don't really think that the Babylonians were meant to read this
3) God declares the end from the beginning. Sounds like foretelling to me.
Highlights
- The helpless gods of Babylon
Summary
- the Babylonian gods are burdens
- God bears Israel
- None of them are his equal
- Remember God, the one who declares the end from the beginning
- God will accomplish his purpose and save Israel for his glory
Questions and Observations
1) Isaiah is really sticking it to those idols.
2) I don't really think that the Babylonians were meant to read this
3) God declares the end from the beginning. Sounds like foretelling to me.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Today at 04:42 AMIsaiah 46 text
1) Isaiah is really sticking it to those idols.
There's this ongoing narrated tension between the Yahweh purists that see the idea of a symbol of a god into which the god deposits some of its essence as blasphemous, and the perhaps more traditional people that are well used to and comfortable with that idea. These polemics against idols strike me as a reforming message - 'idols are the past, we are the future'. They're trying to convey this idea by main rhetorical (and also sometimes physical) force. This perhaps points at important later dates for writing of at least some sections of the Moses story - the golden calf etc, with this idol-breaking being a preoccupation of later generations. Perhaps, perhaps not.
The irony is that Isaiah isn't really arguing for an abandonment of the idea that gods can live in earthly things. He just wants to direct it all to the temple.
1) Isaiah is really sticking it to those idols.
There's this ongoing narrated tension between the Yahweh purists that see the idea of a symbol of a god into which the god deposits some of its essence as blasphemous, and the perhaps more traditional people that are well used to and comfortable with that idea. These polemics against idols strike me as a reforming message - 'idols are the past, we are the future'. They're trying to convey this idea by main rhetorical (and also sometimes physical) force. This perhaps points at important later dates for writing of at least some sections of the Moses story - the golden calf etc, with this idol-breaking being a preoccupation of later generations. Perhaps, perhaps not.
The irony is that Isaiah isn't really arguing for an abandonment of the idea that gods can live in earthly things. He just wants to direct it all to the temple.
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Quote from: MoominDave on Today at 02:09 AMDid someone say "percussion"? I'll have you know this is a TROMBONE forum. Back on topic, you varlet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlA1QHYReHI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlA1QHYReHI
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Today at 04:54 AMThere's this ongoing narrated tension between the Yahweh purists that see the idea of a symbol of a god into which the god deposits some of its essence as blasphemous, and the perhaps more traditional people that are well used to and comfortable with that idea. These polemics against idols strike me as a reforming message - 'idols are the past, we are the future'. They're trying to convey this idea by main rhetorical (and also sometimes physical) force. This perhaps points at important later dates for writing of at least some sections of the Moses story - the golden calf etc, with this idol-breaking being a preoccupation of later generations. Perhaps, perhaps not.
The irony is that Isaiah isn't really arguing for an abandonment of the idea that gods can live in earthly things. He just wants to direct it all to the temple.
I hadn't thought of that comparison. I don't think the situation is the same because:
- in Judaism the temple isn't worshipped, they worshipped in the temple because God "lived" there. Maybe the AoC is slightly analogous to an idol because that's where God 'lived' in the temple, but that wasn't worshipped either.
- Idols live in temples too, but its the idol that is worshipped.
- And anyway isaiah's point is that the idols are nothing more than the man made object and not worth worshipping.
- people were worshipping idols from well before Babylon, they were part of really ancient Egyptian culture too, so there's no reason to infer that Moses' critique of idol worship wasn't old too.
- My take is that Isaiah was just as conservative as Moses, and Jesus in this respect.
The irony is that Isaiah isn't really arguing for an abandonment of the idea that gods can live in earthly things. He just wants to direct it all to the temple.
I hadn't thought of that comparison. I don't think the situation is the same because:
- in Judaism the temple isn't worshipped, they worshipped in the temple because God "lived" there. Maybe the AoC is slightly analogous to an idol because that's where God 'lived' in the temple, but that wasn't worshipped either.
- Idols live in temples too, but its the idol that is worshipped.
- And anyway isaiah's point is that the idols are nothing more than the man made object and not worth worshipping.
- people were worshipping idols from well before Babylon, they were part of really ancient Egyptian culture too, so there's no reason to infer that Moses' critique of idol worship wasn't old too.
- My take is that Isaiah was just as conservative as Moses, and Jesus in this respect.
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ttf_drizabone
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Isaiah 48 text
Highlights
- Israel refined for God's glory
- A new exodus
Summary
- Hear this Israel, you who claim to follow God but don't
- The punishments I promised in the past I have brought about, because you are obstinate
- I told you they were going to happen so you couldn't say it was an idol doing it
- Because I knew you would be treacherous I had another plan that I am going to tell you. I will restrain my anger, for my glory and praise.
- Listen to me Israel, because I called everything into being and I am THE GREATEST
- Who has declared these things? I will ensure he defeats Babylon and Chaldea.
- I am the Lord who teaches you to thrive. I wish you had obeyed mne then you would have thrived.
- Israel, leave Babylon like you escaped from Egypt
- But there is no peace for the wicked.
Questions and Observations
1) Israel is going to be blessed because God loves them and because it will bring him glory, not because they deserve it - they were obstinate and treacherous. What do you think of that? (assuming for the sake of the question that the bible is true)
2) I think "who" and "he" in v14-15 is Cyrus. So he knew that God was the greatest and was helping him. So that's Isaiah's answer to how Cyrus felt about being God's tool
3) God tells the Jewish exiles in Babylon to escape, He will redeem them just like he did from Egypt in the wilderness.
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Isaiah 49 text
Highlights
- Another Servant Song
Summary
- Everyone listen:
- I, Israel have been chosen by The Lord. He has equipped me and hidden me away, he has glorified me
- I said that efforts have come to nothing but God is my reward
- The Lord who formed me to gather Israel honours me and appoints me to be a light to all the nations
- Even though the nation abhorrs me kings and princes shall subject themselves to me.
- The Lord says that he will make me a covenant with the people to restore them to the land and comfort his them
- Jerusalem can't believe it. God will rescue them from all their oppressors
- All the nations will serve them.
Questions and Observations
1) Another Servant Song: in the first one in ch42 I thought the identity of the Servant was ambiguous. Was it supposed to be Israel or a person, probably The Messiah. The Servant was to be faithful, to bring justice and hope to the nations and to be a covenant to the people and a light to the Gentiles, to heal the sick and free the prisoners. Those roles indicate to me that it was going to be the Messiah, but Jewish teachers thought it was the nation. Maybe the nation could have fulfilled that role but given their unfaithfulness they have disqualified themselves.
2) That sounds a bit of a lefty teaching doesn't it, is this an indication that this chapter is not written by proto Isaiah? Which one?
3) This Servant Song covers similar themes but this time the Servant is going to gather Israel, and the nation is going to abhorr him. This is a clearer indication that the Servant will be a person.
Highlights
- Another Servant Song
Summary
- Everyone listen:
- I, Israel have been chosen by The Lord. He has equipped me and hidden me away, he has glorified me
- I said that efforts have come to nothing but God is my reward
- The Lord who formed me to gather Israel honours me and appoints me to be a light to all the nations
- Even though the nation abhorrs me kings and princes shall subject themselves to me.
- The Lord says that he will make me a covenant with the people to restore them to the land and comfort his them
- Jerusalem can't believe it. God will rescue them from all their oppressors
- All the nations will serve them.
Questions and Observations
1) Another Servant Song: in the first one in ch42 I thought the identity of the Servant was ambiguous. Was it supposed to be Israel or a person, probably The Messiah. The Servant was to be faithful, to bring justice and hope to the nations and to be a covenant to the people and a light to the Gentiles, to heal the sick and free the prisoners. Those roles indicate to me that it was going to be the Messiah, but Jewish teachers thought it was the nation. Maybe the nation could have fulfilled that role but given their unfaithfulness they have disqualified themselves.
2) That sounds a bit of a lefty teaching doesn't it, is this an indication that this chapter is not written by proto Isaiah? Which one?
3) This Servant Song covers similar themes but this time the Servant is going to gather Israel, and the nation is going to abhorr him. This is a clearer indication that the Servant will be a person.
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Isaiah 50 text
Highlights
- Contrast: Israel and The Servant
Summary
- God says he "divorced" Israel because of her unfaithfulness
- But reminds that he can do anything he likes including redeem them
- The Lord has given 'me' the abilit to sustain people
- I am not rebellious and I accept persecution,
- I have not been disgraced because The Lord vindicates me: who will contend with me
- Fear and trust the Lord and obey his servant, or don't, and wear the consequences.
Questions and Observations
1) It is obvious now that Israel isn't the Servant.
2) v7-9 The vindication that the servant gets reminds me of what Job asked for, and then the the idea that none can stand against someone who the Lord is with, is used in Romans 8.
3) I've assumed that the first person 'I' in v 1-3 refers to the Lord and then in v4..9 the servant. What do you reckon?
Highlights
- Contrast: Israel and The Servant
Summary
- God says he "divorced" Israel because of her unfaithfulness
- But reminds that he can do anything he likes including redeem them
- The Lord has given 'me' the abilit to sustain people
- I am not rebellious and I accept persecution,
- I have not been disgraced because The Lord vindicates me: who will contend with me
- Fear and trust the Lord and obey his servant, or don't, and wear the consequences.
Questions and Observations
1) It is obvious now that Israel isn't the Servant.
2) v7-9 The vindication that the servant gets reminds me of what Job asked for, and then the the idea that none can stand against someone who the Lord is with, is used in Romans 8.
3) I've assumed that the first person 'I' in v 1-3 refers to the Lord and then in v4..9 the servant. What do you reckon?
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on May 07, 2017, 10:02PMIsaiah 47 text
- The end of Babylon
This is in a confusing mix of tenses. We've deduced that we've been reading passages written later than a historical Isaiah, at the time of Cyrus. The start of this chapter tells us of Babylon having fallen. Later on it talks of it in the future tense. This reads like earlier writings reworked to fit.
Quote from: drizabone on May 09, 2017, 02:43PM
Isaiah 48 text
1) Israel is going to be blessed because God loves them and because it will bring him glory, not because they deserve it - they were obstinate and treacherous. What do you think of that? (assuming for the sake of the question that the bible is true)
I wonder why a being portrayed as so above base human motivations as Yahweh is drawn would care in the slightest what glory he received from people. It doesn't make intuitive sense.
Quote from: drizabone on May 09, 2017, 09:16PMIsaiah 50 text
3) I've assumed that the first person 'I' in v 1-3 refers to the Lord and then in v4..9 the servant. What do you reckon?
I read it the same way.
- The end of Babylon
This is in a confusing mix of tenses. We've deduced that we've been reading passages written later than a historical Isaiah, at the time of Cyrus. The start of this chapter tells us of Babylon having fallen. Later on it talks of it in the future tense. This reads like earlier writings reworked to fit.
Quote from: drizabone on May 09, 2017, 02:43PM
Isaiah 48 text
1) Israel is going to be blessed because God loves them and because it will bring him glory, not because they deserve it - they were obstinate and treacherous. What do you think of that? (assuming for the sake of the question that the bible is true)
I wonder why a being portrayed as so above base human motivations as Yahweh is drawn would care in the slightest what glory he received from people. It doesn't make intuitive sense.
Quote from: drizabone on May 09, 2017, 09:16PMIsaiah 50 text
3) I've assumed that the first person 'I' in v 1-3 refers to the Lord and then in v4..9 the servant. What do you reckon?
I read it the same way.
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Isaiah 51 text
Isaiah 52 text
Highlights
- Follow Yahweh; his servant will show the way
Summary
Chapter 51
- Those who want to be devout should look to good examples for guidance - Abraham and Sarah
- Yahweh will dispense a new teaching that will be obvious to all
- Be confident in one's righteousness
- Be willing to use force
Chapter 52
- Jerusalem will become pre-eminent, earlier reverses eclipsed
- The mysterious servant will become very important
Questions and Observations
1) "Rahab" is a metaphorical and pejorative name for Egypt.
2) The editorial heading in the text "He was pierced for our transgressions" seems clumsy. It does not fit the words below it, and feels like the most recent editor's attempt to make this Jesus-relevant. I have noticed a few times in this book that the modern headings and the ancient words that they are attached to don't line up perfectly, but this example really seems some way off.
Isaiah 52 text
Highlights
- Follow Yahweh; his servant will show the way
Summary
Chapter 51
- Those who want to be devout should look to good examples for guidance - Abraham and Sarah
- Yahweh will dispense a new teaching that will be obvious to all
- Be confident in one's righteousness
- Be willing to use force
Chapter 52
- Jerusalem will become pre-eminent, earlier reverses eclipsed
- The mysterious servant will become very important
Questions and Observations
1) "Rahab" is a metaphorical and pejorative name for Egypt.
2) The editorial heading in the text "He was pierced for our transgressions" seems clumsy. It does not fit the words below it, and feels like the most recent editor's attempt to make this Jesus-relevant. I have noticed a few times in this book that the modern headings and the ancient words that they are attached to don't line up perfectly, but this example really seems some way off.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 10, 2017, 06:32AMThis is in a confusing mix of tenses. We've deduced that we've been reading passages written later than a historical Isaiah, at the time of Cyrus. The start of this chapter tells us of Babylon having fallen. Later on it talks of it in the future tense. This reads like earlier writings reworked to fit.
I didn't really notice the change in tenses, but they seem to make sense
1: Present: come and sit in the dust ... and take millstones
3: Future: because you are going to be humiliated
5: Present: Sit in darkness ...
Future: because I will take vengeance
6: Past: I was angry with my people...but you took no mercy and thought you would be great forever
8: Present: so listen: I'm in charge and will punish you
10: past: you felt secure
11: future: but evil will get you
12: present: so continue to rely on your enchantments
future: because they will fail you and you will be destroyed
QuoteI wonder why a being portrayed as so above base human motivations as Yahweh is drawn would care in the slightest what glory he received from people. It doesn't make intuitive sense.
I'm not sure what makes a human motivation base, but the bible says we were created in God's image so there will be a correlation between his and our emotions and motivations, although ours tend to be corrupted. So God feels anger, jealousy, pride ... takes vengeance, enjoys music ... and likes to be praised. Its maybe not what people expect for God, but its what we've been reading.
I didn't really notice the change in tenses, but they seem to make sense
1: Present: come and sit in the dust ... and take millstones
3: Future: because you are going to be humiliated
5: Present: Sit in darkness ...
Future: because I will take vengeance
6: Past: I was angry with my people...but you took no mercy and thought you would be great forever
8: Present: so listen: I'm in charge and will punish you
10: past: you felt secure
11: future: but evil will get you
12: present: so continue to rely on your enchantments
future: because they will fail you and you will be destroyed
QuoteI wonder why a being portrayed as so above base human motivations as Yahweh is drawn would care in the slightest what glory he received from people. It doesn't make intuitive sense.
I'm not sure what makes a human motivation base, but the bible says we were created in God's image so there will be a correlation between his and our emotions and motivations, although ours tend to be corrupted. So God feels anger, jealousy, pride ... takes vengeance, enjoys music ... and likes to be praised. Its maybe not what people expect for God, but its what we've been reading.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: drizabone on May 10, 2017, 09:30PMI'm not sure what makes a human motivation base, but the bible says we were created in God's image
This guy knows what motivates humans:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
Enjoy. We watched it for a management class.
This guy knows what motivates humans:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
Enjoy. We watched it for a management class.
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ttf_MoominDave
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It strikes me that "in God's image" says nothing about what goes on inside the mind of either creator or createe. The people who put this religion together imagined that God had four limbs and a head, etc. They also imagined that he had powers beyond all human comprehension. Evidently the Mind of God in this paradigm is a very different place to the human mind. I see no reason to expect Yahweh to share human motivations - would you, if you were the sole being that could destroy the world at the click of your fingers?
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ttf_MoominDave
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Isaiah 53 text
Isaiah 54 text
Isaiah 55 text
Highlights
- Israel will eventually overcome
Summary
Chapter 53
- The servant is one rejected by other men, a solitary messenger
- They will take upon themselves the blame for the sins of all people
- They were tried sorely, but took what happened meekly
Chapter 54
- Israel may feel hard pressed, but things will come good eventually.
Chapter 55
- Remember the covenant; it will redeem Israel in time
Questions and Observations
1) Now we have the phrase "pierced for our transgressions". I withdraw my objection from the previous chapter. Once again the chapter divisions are a bit oddly placed.
2) This is clearly a passage that Jesus had been reading heavily from before he embarked on his career as a fulfilment of known prophecy
3) But I am not totally clear whether this passage (presumably written well after Isaiah) might or might not be intended to refer to Isaiah himself. Certainly important bits of it are in the past tense, e.g. vv7-9. But again the focus of the writing seems wilfully obscure.
4) I've assumed that the object of the metaphor in chapter 54 is Israel. A good assumption?
5) Under the three-part Isaiah hypothesis, this marks the end of "deutero-Isaiah".
Isaiah 54 text
Isaiah 55 text
Highlights
- Israel will eventually overcome
Summary
Chapter 53
- The servant is one rejected by other men, a solitary messenger
- They will take upon themselves the blame for the sins of all people
- They were tried sorely, but took what happened meekly
Chapter 54
- Israel may feel hard pressed, but things will come good eventually.
Chapter 55
- Remember the covenant; it will redeem Israel in time
Questions and Observations
1) Now we have the phrase "pierced for our transgressions". I withdraw my objection from the previous chapter. Once again the chapter divisions are a bit oddly placed.
2) This is clearly a passage that Jesus had been reading heavily from before he embarked on his career as a fulfilment of known prophecy
3) But I am not totally clear whether this passage (presumably written well after Isaiah) might or might not be intended to refer to Isaiah himself. Certainly important bits of it are in the past tense, e.g. vv7-9. But again the focus of the writing seems wilfully obscure.
4) I've assumed that the object of the metaphor in chapter 54 is Israel. A good assumption?
5) Under the three-part Isaiah hypothesis, this marks the end of "deutero-Isaiah".
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 11, 2017, 08:01AMIt strikes me that "in God's image" says nothing about what goes on inside the mind of either creator or createe. The people who put this religion together imagined that God had four limbs and a head, etc. They also imagined that he had powers beyond all human comprehension. Evidently the Mind of God in this paradigm is a very different place to the human mind. I see no reason to expect Yahweh to share human motivations - would you, if you were the sole being that could destroy the world at the click of your fingers?
The logic of my statement should have been that the bible depicts that God feels anger, jealousy, pride ... takes vengeance, enjoys music ... and likes to be praised. I think this is consistent with and caused by the fact that we were created in his image (which I also think goes beyond appearances).
It sounds like you are saying that the way that God is depicted in the bible as having these characteristics is unintuitive given (might I say inconsistent with) the hypothesis that he was imagined by people aka "created in our image". I would suggest that this is a problem with your hypothesis.
The logic of my statement should have been that the bible depicts that God feels anger, jealousy, pride ... takes vengeance, enjoys music ... and likes to be praised. I think this is consistent with and caused by the fact that we were created in his image (which I also think goes beyond appearances).
It sounds like you are saying that the way that God is depicted in the bible as having these characteristics is unintuitive given (might I say inconsistent with) the hypothesis that he was imagined by people aka "created in our image". I would suggest that this is a problem with your hypothesis.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 11, 2017, 08:14AMIsaiah 53 text
Isaiah 54 text
Isaiah 55 text
Highlights
- Israel will eventually overcome
the servant is the highlight for me.
QuoteChapter 53
- The servant is one rejected by other men, a solitary messenger
- They will take upon themselves the blame for the sins of all people
- They were tried sorely, but took what happened meekly
I think it should be "He will take ..." "He was tried..."
Quote
2) This is clearly a passage that Jesus had been reading heavily from before he embarked on his career as a fulfilment of known prophecy
I think that is right. Even as a christian I'm curious to know how much Jesus' understanding of who he was and what he was to do was informed by scripture and how much by other "mystical" communication channels he had with God.
So what do you think of Jesus given that he embarked on a career that was modelled on Isaiah's prophecy?
Quote3) But I am not totally clear whether this passage (presumably written well after Isaiah) might or might not be intended to refer to Isaiah himself. Certainly important bits of it are in the past tense, e.g. vv7-9. But again the focus of the writing seems wilfully obscure.
Pretty much all of ch53 is in the past tense.
I don't think Isaiah 53 has been thought to refer to Isaiah, but I agree the tense is interesting.
"Wilfully obscure": the New Testament has a reason for this. You'll have to wait.
Quote4) I've assumed that the object of the metaphor in chapter 54 is Israel. A good assumption?
I think so, although many Christians think that it applies to the church.
Isaiah 54 text
Isaiah 55 text
Highlights
- Israel will eventually overcome
the servant is the highlight for me.
QuoteChapter 53
- The servant is one rejected by other men, a solitary messenger
- They will take upon themselves the blame for the sins of all people
- They were tried sorely, but took what happened meekly
I think it should be "He will take ..." "He was tried..."
Quote
2) This is clearly a passage that Jesus had been reading heavily from before he embarked on his career as a fulfilment of known prophecy
I think that is right. Even as a christian I'm curious to know how much Jesus' understanding of who he was and what he was to do was informed by scripture and how much by other "mystical" communication channels he had with God.
So what do you think of Jesus given that he embarked on a career that was modelled on Isaiah's prophecy?
Quote3) But I am not totally clear whether this passage (presumably written well after Isaiah) might or might not be intended to refer to Isaiah himself. Certainly important bits of it are in the past tense, e.g. vv7-9. But again the focus of the writing seems wilfully obscure.
Pretty much all of ch53 is in the past tense.
I don't think Isaiah 53 has been thought to refer to Isaiah, but I agree the tense is interesting.
"Wilfully obscure": the New Testament has a reason for this. You'll have to wait.
Quote4) I've assumed that the object of the metaphor in chapter 54 is Israel. A good assumption?
I think so, although many Christians think that it applies to the church.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on May 11, 2017, 08:39PMIt sounds like you are saying that the way that God is depicted in the bible as having these characteristics is unintuitive given (might I say inconsistent with) the hypothesis that he was imagined by people aka "created in our image". I would suggest that this is a problem with your hypothesis.
Hmm. Don't buy that. My hypothesis is that the Yahweh drawn by these people comes out looking inconsistent because he's been the figurehead of religion for such a vastly long time that the thoughts of the people drawing him have significantly changed over that time. From being a member of the Canaanite pantheon, to struggling to be acknowledged as the supreme member, to achieving that, to being the only possible god. From being the human figure of Genesis, interacting freely in human fashion with the patriarchs, to the deliberately-by-construction untouchable figure favoured today. Over time he's evolved into a quite different concept from that where he started. Hence the inconsistencies mentioned above - we still remember that he was once held as a human-type figure, despite his change into a completely abstract figure.
Quote from: drizabone on May 11, 2017, 09:02PMI think it should be "He will take ..." "He was tried..."
My default when describing a figure of undefined gender is to use "they", even if masculinity is a likely assumption given the society we are talking about. Did I miss a definite confirmation of the Servant's gender?
Quote from: drizabone on May 11, 2017, 09:02PMI think that is right. Even as a christian I'm curious to know how much Jesus' understanding of who he was and what he was to do was informed by scripture and how much by other "mystical" communication channels he had with God.
So what do you think of Jesus given that he embarked on a career that was modelled on Isaiah's prophecy?
What do I think of him? I'll be much clearer on the details after we've read the Gospels. But I approach him as I approach anyone else - I read the descriptions of his words and deeds, trying to filter for editorial slant, and deduce what I can about him. I do not complicate things by introducing the unnatural assumption of mystic powers; I treat him as a man. A man deeply convinced of the rightness of his mystic cause, by all accounts, but that doesn't mean that it makes sense for us to treat his mystic thoughts as an accurate representation of reality - such flies in the face of all good sense.
Which comes out a bit blunt, for which my apologies. But that's the basic philosophical conflict here.
Quote from: drizabone on May 11, 2017, 09:02PM"Wilfully obscure": the New Testament has a reason for this. You'll have to wait.
You're a tease...
Quote from: drizabone on May 11, 2017, 09:02PMI think so, although many Christians think that it applies to the church.
Ah yes, I guess that seems a likely thing to think. I see that the Muslims hold Isaiah as holy too. I wonder if they think that this passage applies to their faith?
Hmm. Don't buy that. My hypothesis is that the Yahweh drawn by these people comes out looking inconsistent because he's been the figurehead of religion for such a vastly long time that the thoughts of the people drawing him have significantly changed over that time. From being a member of the Canaanite pantheon, to struggling to be acknowledged as the supreme member, to achieving that, to being the only possible god. From being the human figure of Genesis, interacting freely in human fashion with the patriarchs, to the deliberately-by-construction untouchable figure favoured today. Over time he's evolved into a quite different concept from that where he started. Hence the inconsistencies mentioned above - we still remember that he was once held as a human-type figure, despite his change into a completely abstract figure.
Quote from: drizabone on May 11, 2017, 09:02PMI think it should be "He will take ..." "He was tried..."
My default when describing a figure of undefined gender is to use "they", even if masculinity is a likely assumption given the society we are talking about. Did I miss a definite confirmation of the Servant's gender?
Quote from: drizabone on May 11, 2017, 09:02PMI think that is right. Even as a christian I'm curious to know how much Jesus' understanding of who he was and what he was to do was informed by scripture and how much by other "mystical" communication channels he had with God.
So what do you think of Jesus given that he embarked on a career that was modelled on Isaiah's prophecy?
What do I think of him? I'll be much clearer on the details after we've read the Gospels. But I approach him as I approach anyone else - I read the descriptions of his words and deeds, trying to filter for editorial slant, and deduce what I can about him. I do not complicate things by introducing the unnatural assumption of mystic powers; I treat him as a man. A man deeply convinced of the rightness of his mystic cause, by all accounts, but that doesn't mean that it makes sense for us to treat his mystic thoughts as an accurate representation of reality - such flies in the face of all good sense.
Which comes out a bit blunt, for which my apologies. But that's the basic philosophical conflict here.
Quote from: drizabone on May 11, 2017, 09:02PM"Wilfully obscure": the New Testament has a reason for this. You'll have to wait.
You're a tease...
Quote from: drizabone on May 11, 2017, 09:02PMI think so, although many Christians think that it applies to the church.
Ah yes, I guess that seems a likely thing to think. I see that the Muslims hold Isaiah as holy too. I wonder if they think that this passage applies to their faith?
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ttf_MoominDave
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Isaiah 56 text
Isaiah 57 text
Highlights
- Following Yahweh is good
Summary
Chapter 56
- Yahweh says: "Keep going, it won't be long before all the good stuff happens"
- Yahweh says: "Foreigners and eunuchs that worship me are included too"
- But those who are entrusted with his care are not always diligent
Chapter 57
- Those who follow this path may suffer disaster
- But death is a release from calamity
- Those who make offerings but worship other gods are deplored
- Those who err and genuinely seek to change are aided
- But "No peace for the wicked"
Questions and Observations
1) This chapter clearly states that the wonderful outcomes forecast in this book are just around the corner. Strike out here, most of three millennia after Isaiah lived (a little less after the later appenders to the book lived).
2) Deuteronomy 23:1 takes a different line on eunuchs. An internal contradiction here.
3) These chapters commence "trito-Isaiah", in the three-part Isaiah scheme. It doesn't feel immediately compelling from reading the text to assert that there is a division here, unlike the start of "deutero-Isaiah", when tenses changed.
Isaiah 57 text
Highlights
- Following Yahweh is good
Summary
Chapter 56
- Yahweh says: "Keep going, it won't be long before all the good stuff happens"
- Yahweh says: "Foreigners and eunuchs that worship me are included too"
- But those who are entrusted with his care are not always diligent
Chapter 57
- Those who follow this path may suffer disaster
- But death is a release from calamity
- Those who make offerings but worship other gods are deplored
- Those who err and genuinely seek to change are aided
- But "No peace for the wicked"
Questions and Observations
1) This chapter clearly states that the wonderful outcomes forecast in this book are just around the corner. Strike out here, most of three millennia after Isaiah lived (a little less after the later appenders to the book lived).
2) Deuteronomy 23:1 takes a different line on eunuchs. An internal contradiction here.
3) These chapters commence "trito-Isaiah", in the three-part Isaiah scheme. It doesn't feel immediately compelling from reading the text to assert that there is a division here, unlike the start of "deutero-Isaiah", when tenses changed.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 13, 2017, 04:25AMIsaiah 56 text
Isaiah 57 text
...
Questions and Observations
1) This chapter clearly states that the wonderful outcomes forecast in this book are just around the corner. Strike out here, most of three millennia after Isaiah lived (a little less after the later appenders to the book lived).
I think God likes to develop patience in people,
and from the perspective of someone who has been alive forever "soon" would have a different meaning to what we would expect.
Quote2) Deuteronomy 23:1 takes a different line on eunuchs. An internal contradiction here.
You make it sound like a bad thing. I read it as saying that now God will consider any who keep the law as good, including those who were previously disqualified.
Quote from: MoominDave on May 12, 2017, 07:13AMHmm. Don't buy that. My hypothesis is that the Yahweh drawn by these people comes out looking inconsistent because he's been the figurehead of religion for such a vastly long time that the thoughts of the people drawing him have significantly changed over that time. From being a member of the Canaanite pantheon, to struggling to be acknowledged as the supreme member, to achieving that, to being the only possible god. From being the human figure of Genesis, interacting freely in human fashion with the patriarchs, to the deliberately-by-construction untouchable figure favoured today. Over time he's evolved into a quite different concept from that where he started. Hence the inconsistencies mentioned above - we still remember that he was once held as a human-type figure, despite his change into a completely abstract figure.
Ok, but you're thinking much more than you wrote (which doesn't surprise me and isn't meant to be a negative comment).
QuoteWhat do I think of him? ...
Which comes out a bit blunt, for which my apologies. But that's the basic philosophical conflict here.
No apologies needed. I was just wondering what you thought if him in the light of what you said about him going into his career with Isaiah in mind. I wasn't trying to force anything mystical on the question.
QuoteYou're a tease...
Isaiah 57 text
...
Questions and Observations
1) This chapter clearly states that the wonderful outcomes forecast in this book are just around the corner. Strike out here, most of three millennia after Isaiah lived (a little less after the later appenders to the book lived).
I think God likes to develop patience in people,
and from the perspective of someone who has been alive forever "soon" would have a different meaning to what we would expect.
Quote2) Deuteronomy 23:1 takes a different line on eunuchs. An internal contradiction here.
You make it sound like a bad thing. I read it as saying that now God will consider any who keep the law as good, including those who were previously disqualified.
Quote from: MoominDave on May 12, 2017, 07:13AMHmm. Don't buy that. My hypothesis is that the Yahweh drawn by these people comes out looking inconsistent because he's been the figurehead of religion for such a vastly long time that the thoughts of the people drawing him have significantly changed over that time. From being a member of the Canaanite pantheon, to struggling to be acknowledged as the supreme member, to achieving that, to being the only possible god. From being the human figure of Genesis, interacting freely in human fashion with the patriarchs, to the deliberately-by-construction untouchable figure favoured today. Over time he's evolved into a quite different concept from that where he started. Hence the inconsistencies mentioned above - we still remember that he was once held as a human-type figure, despite his change into a completely abstract figure.
Ok, but you're thinking much more than you wrote (which doesn't surprise me and isn't meant to be a negative comment).
QuoteWhat do I think of him? ...
Which comes out a bit blunt, for which my apologies. But that's the basic philosophical conflict here.
No apologies needed. I was just wondering what you thought if him in the light of what you said about him going into his career with Isaiah in mind. I wasn't trying to force anything mystical on the question.
QuoteYou're a tease...
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ttf_ddickerson
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Isaiah 55:11 English Standard Version (ESV)
"so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."
And going back earlier in Isaiah 40:8:
"The grass withers, the flower fades,
but the word of our God will stand forever."
Four promises from God that the Holy Bible will stand forever, shall not obtain a void, it will accomplish what He purposes, and will succeed in its purpose. Yet, there are naysayers that call themselves Christians. Why?
Look at Timothy:
2 Timothy 3:16 (ESV)
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,"
This says we cannot choose what we should do or believe from the Bible, because it is ALL inspired scripture.
This all ties in neatly with Isaiah, so I thought that I would share.
"so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."
And going back earlier in Isaiah 40:8:
"The grass withers, the flower fades,
but the word of our God will stand forever."
Four promises from God that the Holy Bible will stand forever, shall not obtain a void, it will accomplish what He purposes, and will succeed in its purpose. Yet, there are naysayers that call themselves Christians. Why?
Look at Timothy:
2 Timothy 3:16 (ESV)
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,"
This says we cannot choose what we should do or believe from the Bible, because it is ALL inspired scripture.
This all ties in neatly with Isaiah, so I thought that I would share.
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ttf_drizabone
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thanks Dudley
Isaiah 57 text
Highlights
- Idolators will be punished, the righteous will be comforted
Summary
- Righteous men perish and nobody cares: but they pass from calamity to peace
- idolators are bad and will be punished by God
- God dwells in the high places and will comfort those who are contrite
Questions and Observations
1) Isaiah uses the metaphor of sexual imorality for unfaithfulness to God
Isaiah 57 text
Highlights
- Idolators will be punished, the righteous will be comforted
Summary
- Righteous men perish and nobody cares: but they pass from calamity to peace
- idolators are bad and will be punished by God
- God dwells in the high places and will comfort those who are contrite
Questions and Observations
1) Isaiah uses the metaphor of sexual imorality for unfaithfulness to God
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 04:07 AMI think God likes to develop patience in people,
and from the perspective of someone who has been alive forever "soon" would have a different meaning to what we would expect.
Indeed! But then two points:
- He'd only been conceived of as a supreme deity by the writer of Isaiah's time for a period that is very much shorter than the subsequently elapsed time: 00s of years vs 000s of years.
- Bit tricksy to encourage the writer of Isaiah to think of this as "soon", no?
Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 04:07 AMYou make it sound like a bad thing. I read it as saying that now God will consider any who keep the law as good, including those who were previously disqualified.
Well, it is and it isn't. On the plus side it tears up a proscription that was unnecessary and which discriminated against a group of people who usually do not request their status; it is a welcome liberalising move. On the minus side I thought these writings were supposed to be consistent for all time? That's stated in several places.
We've talked about that before - how later instructions supersede earlier ones (which seems reasonable to me); but it becomes difficult to see how one can consistently advocate absolute obedience to other parts of the earlier instructions on the basis that they are part of those instructions when large swathes of them now lie abandoned. The usual case is someone maintaining disapproval of homosexuality citing Leviticus and Deuteronomy while wearing mixed-fibre clothing. Many Christians treat these passages responsibly - as no more than a record of an archaic law code - but many don't.
Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 04:07 AMOk, but you're thinking much more than you wrote (which doesn't surprise me and isn't meant to be a negative comment).
The trouble with this way of communicating... If you write lots, people glaze over. So you write less than you need to, and then communication isn't straightforward.
Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 04:07 AMNo apologies needed. I was just wondering what you thought if him in the light of what you said about him going into his career with Isaiah in mind. I wasn't trying to force anything mystical on the question.
The picture I have in my mind is of Jesus as a young man, gathered with a group of his fellow iconoclasts, working up their dissatisfaction with the system, and articulating ways to challenge it. They sit in a cave, drinking and talking, and then...
"Hey! I have got the most powerful idea! Isaiah and others leave all of this returning saviour stuff open-ended. One of us should be this person!"
I see it as someone who happened across a very powerful specific psychological lever indeed. So powerful that some people are still 2,000 years on dazzled into buying into the mysticism with which he coated his dream.
and from the perspective of someone who has been alive forever "soon" would have a different meaning to what we would expect.
Indeed! But then two points:
- He'd only been conceived of as a supreme deity by the writer of Isaiah's time for a period that is very much shorter than the subsequently elapsed time: 00s of years vs 000s of years.
- Bit tricksy to encourage the writer of Isaiah to think of this as "soon", no?
Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 04:07 AMYou make it sound like a bad thing. I read it as saying that now God will consider any who keep the law as good, including those who were previously disqualified.
Well, it is and it isn't. On the plus side it tears up a proscription that was unnecessary and which discriminated against a group of people who usually do not request their status; it is a welcome liberalising move. On the minus side I thought these writings were supposed to be consistent for all time? That's stated in several places.
We've talked about that before - how later instructions supersede earlier ones (which seems reasonable to me); but it becomes difficult to see how one can consistently advocate absolute obedience to other parts of the earlier instructions on the basis that they are part of those instructions when large swathes of them now lie abandoned. The usual case is someone maintaining disapproval of homosexuality citing Leviticus and Deuteronomy while wearing mixed-fibre clothing. Many Christians treat these passages responsibly - as no more than a record of an archaic law code - but many don't.
Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 04:07 AMOk, but you're thinking much more than you wrote (which doesn't surprise me and isn't meant to be a negative comment).
The trouble with this way of communicating... If you write lots, people glaze over. So you write less than you need to, and then communication isn't straightforward.
Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 04:07 AMNo apologies needed. I was just wondering what you thought if him in the light of what you said about him going into his career with Isaiah in mind. I wasn't trying to force anything mystical on the question.
The picture I have in my mind is of Jesus as a young man, gathered with a group of his fellow iconoclasts, working up their dissatisfaction with the system, and articulating ways to challenge it. They sit in a cave, drinking and talking, and then...
"Hey! I have got the most powerful idea! Isaiah and others leave all of this returning saviour stuff open-ended. One of us should be this person!"
I see it as someone who happened across a very powerful specific psychological lever indeed. So powerful that some people are still 2,000 years on dazzled into buying into the mysticism with which he coated his dream.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: MoominDave on Today at 06:05 AMThe picture I have in my mind is of Jesus as a young man, gathered with a group of his fellow iconoclasts, working up their dissatisfaction with the system, and articulating ways to challenge it. They sit in a cave, drinking and talking, and then...
"Hey! I have got the most powerful idea! Isaiah and others leave all of this returning saviour stuff open-ended. One of us should be this person!"
You might be on the right track, but missing a key element.
They weren't just unhappy with the system; they lived as a destroyed nation. Of course the past included conquest by Assyrians and Babylonians, but now they were utterly conquered, again, and ruled by the Romans, with only a puppet Jewish King allowed. This is clear evidence they had violated the covenant/contract, so Yahweh didn't protect them.
"Hey! I have got the most powerful idea! Isaiah and others leave all of this returning saviour stuff open-ended. One of us should be this person!"
You might be on the right track, but missing a key element.
They weren't just unhappy with the system; they lived as a destroyed nation. Of course the past included conquest by Assyrians and Babylonians, but now they were utterly conquered, again, and ruled by the Romans, with only a puppet Jewish King allowed. This is clear evidence they had violated the covenant/contract, so Yahweh didn't protect them.
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ttf_drizabone
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Tim
I think a key theme through the book, is that despite the fact that most of Israel and especially the leaders have rejected God, there is always a few (aka the remnant) that remain faithful. God provides a ray of hope in that dark situation and promises to save them out of the devastation.
Jesus and his group were unhappy with the situation and saw in Isaiah an idea that 'a suffering servant' could lead the faithful few out of the bondage of occupation by the Romans and the corruption of their leaders.
So from a secular point of view I think Dave's proposal is feasible. Although I would posit that Jesus was always the leader who gathered the group and took them with him.
Do you think that is a reasonable understanding of the text?
I think a key theme through the book, is that despite the fact that most of Israel and especially the leaders have rejected God, there is always a few (aka the remnant) that remain faithful. God provides a ray of hope in that dark situation and promises to save them out of the devastation.
Jesus and his group were unhappy with the situation and saw in Isaiah an idea that 'a suffering servant' could lead the faithful few out of the bondage of occupation by the Romans and the corruption of their leaders.
So from a secular point of view I think Dave's proposal is feasible. Although I would posit that Jesus was always the leader who gathered the group and took them with him.
Do you think that is a reasonable understanding of the text?
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ttf_drizabone
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Isaiah 58 text
Highlights
- more judgement of Israel
Summary
- God criticizes the people for trying to draw near to him without practicing moral actions; a.k.a. for being fake friends. They're super loud about how they're fasting, but all the while they're exploiting their workers.
- The problem with these people, says God, is that their acts of humility are only self-interested. They just want some brownie points with God. As it is, God doesn't want people to put on sackcloth and wail in a big show of humility. He actually wants them to share food with the hungry, bring homeless people into their houses, and give clothes to the naked.
- If they do all this, they will receive God's favor and be healed from their sins, God will guide them and make them strong. Their ruins will be rebuilt, and they'll be praised by future generations for restoring their cities to glory.
- But, they'll need to honour the Sabbath holy and stop doing self-interested things.
Questions and Observations
1) Isaiah has to say the same things over and over. The leaders obviously weren't interested in repenting.
Highlights
- more judgement of Israel
Summary
- God criticizes the people for trying to draw near to him without practicing moral actions; a.k.a. for being fake friends. They're super loud about how they're fasting, but all the while they're exploiting their workers.
- The problem with these people, says God, is that their acts of humility are only self-interested. They just want some brownie points with God. As it is, God doesn't want people to put on sackcloth and wail in a big show of humility. He actually wants them to share food with the hungry, bring homeless people into their houses, and give clothes to the naked.
- If they do all this, they will receive God's favor and be healed from their sins, God will guide them and make them strong. Their ruins will be rebuilt, and they'll be praised by future generations for restoring their cities to glory.
- But, they'll need to honour the Sabbath holy and stop doing self-interested things.
Questions and Observations
1) Isaiah has to say the same things over and over. The leaders obviously weren't interested in repenting.
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ttf_drizabone
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Isaiah 59 text
Highlights
- theres more judgement, and redemption too
Summary
- God could save his people, he just doesn't want to because they keep sinning.
- They've been abusing their legal system, launching frivolous lawsuits, and lying about a whole bunch of stuff. This, says, Isaiah, is like hatching serpents' eggs (since it only makes more serpents) or weaving a spider's web (which seem like a good idea, but are too insubstantial to cover them as clothes.
- Basically, their bad deeds lead to more bad deeds, and their protestations of innocence aren't fooling anybody.
- They've also committed more horrible sins, like murdering the innocent.
- but we wander around in the darkness, begging for light and hoping for justice.
- we can't find salvation since our sins are so great.
- There is no way to turn back to the truth,
- This displeased the Lord. He saw that ther was no one to interceed for them, so he clothes himself in righteousness and vengeance and will deliver justice to the wicked
- He promises to redeem Zion and says that he will put the spirit that has spoken these good words into the mouths of the people and into the mouths of all of their descendants forever.
Questions and Observations
1) When will this tension between judgement and punishment be resolved?
2) Compare and contrast what the servant was going to do and what the Lord does here.
Highlights
- theres more judgement, and redemption too
Summary
- God could save his people, he just doesn't want to because they keep sinning.
- They've been abusing their legal system, launching frivolous lawsuits, and lying about a whole bunch of stuff. This, says, Isaiah, is like hatching serpents' eggs (since it only makes more serpents) or weaving a spider's web (which seem like a good idea, but are too insubstantial to cover them as clothes.
- Basically, their bad deeds lead to more bad deeds, and their protestations of innocence aren't fooling anybody.
- They've also committed more horrible sins, like murdering the innocent.
- but we wander around in the darkness, begging for light and hoping for justice.
- we can't find salvation since our sins are so great.
- There is no way to turn back to the truth,
- This displeased the Lord. He saw that ther was no one to interceed for them, so he clothes himself in righteousness and vengeance and will deliver justice to the wicked
- He promises to redeem Zion and says that he will put the spirit that has spoken these good words into the mouths of the people and into the mouths of all of their descendants forever.
Questions and Observations
1) When will this tension between judgement and punishment be resolved?
2) Compare and contrast what the servant was going to do and what the Lord does here.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Isaiah 60 text
Highlights
- A description of the promised Israel win
Summary
- Everyone else will stumble around in darkness, but Israel will be a beacon to which the devout will gather
- They will be suffused with camels, bringing gifts
- People will sail to be there
- Other nations will submit and offer tribute
- See how unimportant you are today to the mighty nations? Hah! Things will change.
- Just believe in Yahweh, that's all I ask; then all this will happen
Questions and Observations
1) Quite a sales pitch, all this, no?
Highlights
- A description of the promised Israel win
Summary
- Everyone else will stumble around in darkness, but Israel will be a beacon to which the devout will gather
- They will be suffused with camels, bringing gifts
- People will sail to be there
- Other nations will submit and offer tribute
- See how unimportant you are today to the mighty nations? Hah! Things will change.
- Just believe in Yahweh, that's all I ask; then all this will happen
Questions and Observations
1) Quite a sales pitch, all this, no?
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ttf_MoominDave
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Isaiah 61 text
Highlights
- Social justice for Israelites
Summary
- The Servant will make all the downcast people upcast
- They will resurrect departed cities
- Other nations will serve Israel
Questions and Observations
1) Yahweh is a socialist, as described by Isaiah. Makes sense that Jesus was too.
Highlights
- Social justice for Israelites
Summary
- The Servant will make all the downcast people upcast
- They will resurrect departed cities
- Other nations will serve Israel
Questions and Observations
1) Yahweh is a socialist, as described by Isaiah. Makes sense that Jesus was too.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 16, 2017, 06:56AMIsaiah 61 text
...
1) Yahweh is a socialist, as described by Isaiah. Makes sense that Jesus was too.
Mmmm? I don't think I agree but I probably don't understand what you mean. Again.
In my understanding Socialism is where things are owned by society, and potentially no government, and goods and services are delivered by the society to those in greatest need and produced by those with greatest abilities. Is that what you're thinking of? Its an economic system that assumes everyone will be nice to each other. (I don't think that assumption is realistic but I expect that you disagree)
Isaiah describes a benevolent dictatorship or kingship where God's servant makes sure justice is upheld and other nations provide the goods and services while the people take on the role of priests.
Are you interpreting Isaiah through your secular filter (stripping out the God bits) and arriving at something like socialism as I defined or did you have something else in mind.
And this is another passage appropriated by Jesus. Remember it so we can discuss it in the gospels.
...
1) Yahweh is a socialist, as described by Isaiah. Makes sense that Jesus was too.
Mmmm? I don't think I agree but I probably don't understand what you mean. Again.
In my understanding Socialism is where things are owned by society, and potentially no government, and goods and services are delivered by the society to those in greatest need and produced by those with greatest abilities. Is that what you're thinking of? Its an economic system that assumes everyone will be nice to each other. (I don't think that assumption is realistic but I expect that you disagree)
Isaiah describes a benevolent dictatorship or kingship where God's servant makes sure justice is upheld and other nations provide the goods and services while the people take on the role of priests.
Are you interpreting Isaiah through your secular filter (stripping out the God bits) and arriving at something like socialism as I defined or did you have something else in mind.
And this is another passage appropriated by Jesus. Remember it so we can discuss it in the gospels.
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ttf_drizabone
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Isaiah 62 text
Highlights
- More good stuff for the People
Summary
- God will keep working until Jerusalem's glory shines out brightly, evident to everyone. When this happens, it will be called by a new name.
- The land will be adorned richly with all this goodness and majesty, like a royal crown for God.
- As though it were actually married to God, the land will be known as "My delight is in her" and "Married," instead of "Forsaken." God will be a like a builder marrying his own creation.
- God will appoint watchmen to keep reminding Jerusalem of its destiny and keep reminding God of the same as well, until it's all fulfilled.
- God promises that he won't give up the wine and the grain of his people to foreigners and enemies. It'll be reserved strictly for his own people.
- He urges them to build up the highway that will lead into his holy city.
- they'll be called "The Holy People."
Questions and Observations
1) I think that the 'people' that receive these gifts are the faithful of Israel and not all Israel.
Highlights
- More good stuff for the People
Summary
- God will keep working until Jerusalem's glory shines out brightly, evident to everyone. When this happens, it will be called by a new name.
- The land will be adorned richly with all this goodness and majesty, like a royal crown for God.
- As though it were actually married to God, the land will be known as "My delight is in her" and "Married," instead of "Forsaken." God will be a like a builder marrying his own creation.
- God will appoint watchmen to keep reminding Jerusalem of its destiny and keep reminding God of the same as well, until it's all fulfilled.
- God promises that he won't give up the wine and the grain of his people to foreigners and enemies. It'll be reserved strictly for his own people.
- He urges them to build up the highway that will lead into his holy city.
- they'll be called "The Holy People."
Questions and Observations
1) I think that the 'people' that receive these gifts are the faithful of Israel and not all Israel.
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ttf_drizabone
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Isaiah 63 text
Highlights
- God of Vengeance and Mercy
Summary
- A Q&A between God and someone else (a voice that exists to ask God questions).
- The unnamed voice asks "Who's this guy coming from Edom?" God says, "Me, vindicating my power and saving people."
- The voice asks why God's robes are red. It turns out that God's been stomping on some grapes in anger.
- This is really a metaphor, he says, for trampling on and destroying the people of Edom, splattering their lifeblood all over his robes.
- Now, we switch back into mercy mode. Our narrator says that God has saved his own people himself, without the help of any angels or any partners.
- God lifted up the people, but then became their enemy when they rebelled against him. So he left them
- But then God remembered how he had bought Moses and the people out of Egypt and did all those spectacular things and led them through the wilderness, to make a glorious name for himself.
- The people pray for God to remember them and that he is their father, their redeemer, even though they are not known by the patriarchs
- they pray that he will make them fear him and that he will return
- because they have become like the nations that he has never ruled
Questions and Observations
1) The Lord has forgotten that he is supposed to be a socialist and has returned to his wrathful ways.
2) This chapter is tricky to make sense of. It swaps the first person around to different people which makes it difficult to know who's who. I think:
- up to v6 I is the Lord
- v7-14 I is the recipient of The Lords blessings but are distinct from Israel (v7). I'm not sure if I is a rhetorical narrator or another group.
- v15-19 I is Israel (inferred at the beginning of v15 and 'me' at the end and our elsewhere)
Highlights
- God of Vengeance and Mercy
Summary
- A Q&A between God and someone else (a voice that exists to ask God questions).
- The unnamed voice asks "Who's this guy coming from Edom?" God says, "Me, vindicating my power and saving people."
- The voice asks why God's robes are red. It turns out that God's been stomping on some grapes in anger.
- This is really a metaphor, he says, for trampling on and destroying the people of Edom, splattering their lifeblood all over his robes.
- Now, we switch back into mercy mode. Our narrator says that God has saved his own people himself, without the help of any angels or any partners.
- God lifted up the people, but then became their enemy when they rebelled against him. So he left them
- But then God remembered how he had bought Moses and the people out of Egypt and did all those spectacular things and led them through the wilderness, to make a glorious name for himself.
- The people pray for God to remember them and that he is their father, their redeemer, even though they are not known by the patriarchs
- they pray that he will make them fear him and that he will return
- because they have become like the nations that he has never ruled
Questions and Observations
1) The Lord has forgotten that he is supposed to be a socialist and has returned to his wrathful ways.
2) This chapter is tricky to make sense of. It swaps the first person around to different people which makes it difficult to know who's who. I think:
- up to v6 I is the Lord
- v7-14 I is the recipient of The Lords blessings but are distinct from Israel (v7). I'm not sure if I is a rhetorical narrator or another group.
- v15-19 I is Israel (inferred at the beginning of v15 and 'me' at the end and our elsewhere)
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on May 16, 2017, 02:38PMMmmm? I don't think I agree but I probably don't understand what you mean. Again.
In my understanding Socialism is where things are owned by society, and potentially no government, and goods and services are delivered by the society to those in greatest need and produced by those with greatest abilities. Is that what you're thinking of? Its an economic system that assumes everyone will be nice to each other. (I don't think that assumption is realistic but I expect that you disagree)
When I make comments like this, I am sometimes somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but making a serious point nonetheless. Yahweh is here concerned with making sure that those who haven't had a fair go get reward in compensation. Jesus had similar preoccupations - perhaps unsurprisingly, if he was reading the same passages before setting to work. This is the classic motivation for socialism - the observation that people born to different stations can unfairly have their prospects stunted thereby, and the desire to change the system so that the inequity of opportunity is resolved. And who better placed to change the system than a god?
"Does Socialism work?" is a huge question, one not within the scope of this thread, and I wouldn't characterise it the way you have here. I don't think an actual Socialist society has been implemented anywhere - but in fact almost all modern societies contain significant elements of one. One can view any system as having free-market portions and managed portions - the bits that are just left to sort themselves out, and the bits that the society considers essential enough to its successful running that it supervises their operation centrally. Even the US (where so many people come out in hives on even hearing the word "Socialism") has its welfare structures, research interests, and arts grants. A vast amount of propaganda has been produced decrying Socialist ideas in baseless terms, so much so that a kind of general suspicion of social justice values has settled over many in our society. This is to my mind a very sad thing.
I note that there is a particular brand of Christianity, beloved of the US Republican party, where the more inclusive, tolerant, and, yes, Socialist parts of the message of Jesus are simply swept under the carpet, and replaced by a worship of money, something Jesus specifically objected to. My pithy remark above was aimed as a reminder to those that buy into this that they're avoiding something big, something problematic for their worldview... Neither Yahweh nor Jesus were Marxists - but passages like this show significant commonality of interest.
In my understanding Socialism is where things are owned by society, and potentially no government, and goods and services are delivered by the society to those in greatest need and produced by those with greatest abilities. Is that what you're thinking of? Its an economic system that assumes everyone will be nice to each other. (I don't think that assumption is realistic but I expect that you disagree)
When I make comments like this, I am sometimes somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but making a serious point nonetheless. Yahweh is here concerned with making sure that those who haven't had a fair go get reward in compensation. Jesus had similar preoccupations - perhaps unsurprisingly, if he was reading the same passages before setting to work. This is the classic motivation for socialism - the observation that people born to different stations can unfairly have their prospects stunted thereby, and the desire to change the system so that the inequity of opportunity is resolved. And who better placed to change the system than a god?
"Does Socialism work?" is a huge question, one not within the scope of this thread, and I wouldn't characterise it the way you have here. I don't think an actual Socialist society has been implemented anywhere - but in fact almost all modern societies contain significant elements of one. One can view any system as having free-market portions and managed portions - the bits that are just left to sort themselves out, and the bits that the society considers essential enough to its successful running that it supervises their operation centrally. Even the US (where so many people come out in hives on even hearing the word "Socialism") has its welfare structures, research interests, and arts grants. A vast amount of propaganda has been produced decrying Socialist ideas in baseless terms, so much so that a kind of general suspicion of social justice values has settled over many in our society. This is to my mind a very sad thing.
I note that there is a particular brand of Christianity, beloved of the US Republican party, where the more inclusive, tolerant, and, yes, Socialist parts of the message of Jesus are simply swept under the carpet, and replaced by a worship of money, something Jesus specifically objected to. My pithy remark above was aimed as a reminder to those that buy into this that they're avoiding something big, something problematic for their worldview... Neither Yahweh nor Jesus were Marxists - but passages like this show significant commonality of interest.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 05:41 PMIsaiah 63 text
1) The Lord has forgotten that he is supposed to be a socialist and has returned to his wrathful ways.
Yes, there's this ongoing uneasy tension between newfangled ideas of fairness and oldfangled ideas of basic retribution and gore. In some ways it's the same tension that sits at the heart of the modern political narrative still.
In this particular case, the tension seems to arise from the original conception of Yahweh as a simpler god, one among many, not even the head god (who was El) - no need at that point to burden him with all godly baggage that might exist; he could be a storm-god type concept, defined by the wilder things his followers ascribed to him. Ideas of centralised social justice arrived later. Imagine if the Norse gods had won out, and if Thor had come to be the all-powerful deity in our society, merging with Odin as Yahweh did with El... It would be an uneasy concept to reconcile.
1) The Lord has forgotten that he is supposed to be a socialist and has returned to his wrathful ways.
Yes, there's this ongoing uneasy tension between newfangled ideas of fairness and oldfangled ideas of basic retribution and gore. In some ways it's the same tension that sits at the heart of the modern political narrative still.
In this particular case, the tension seems to arise from the original conception of Yahweh as a simpler god, one among many, not even the head god (who was El) - no need at that point to burden him with all godly baggage that might exist; he could be a storm-god type concept, defined by the wilder things his followers ascribed to him. Ideas of centralised social justice arrived later. Imagine if the Norse gods had won out, and if Thor had come to be the all-powerful deity in our society, merging with Odin as Yahweh did with El... It would be an uneasy concept to reconcile.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Isaiah 64 text
Highlights
- A plea to Yahweh
Summary
- The writer wishes for Yahweh to manifest himself
- Regrets the general lack of belief that will prevent this
- Points to suffering, and pleads for clemency
Questions and Observations
1) Why would a general lack of belief prevent Yahweh from manifesting himself?
Highlights
- A plea to Yahweh
Summary
- The writer wishes for Yahweh to manifest himself
- Regrets the general lack of belief that will prevent this
- Points to suffering, and pleads for clemency
Questions and Observations
1) Why would a general lack of belief prevent Yahweh from manifesting himself?
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 18, 2017, 02:11AMYes, there's this ongoing uneasy tension between newfangled ideas of fairness and oldfangled ideas of basic retribution and gore. In some ways it's the same tension that sits at the heart of the modern political narrative still.
Retribution can be completely fair and deserved. An eye for an eye is fair isn't it? I would argue that our centralised social justice is based on the Mosaic Law. Obviously modified.
Retribution can be completely just too which I think it more YHWH's concern than fairness.
Retribution can be completely fair and deserved. An eye for an eye is fair isn't it? I would argue that our centralised social justice is based on the Mosaic Law. Obviously modified.
Retribution can be completely just too which I think it more YHWH's concern than fairness.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 18, 2017, 02:16AMIsaiah 64 text
...
1) Why would a general lack of belief prevent Yahweh from manifesting himself?
I think the reason given is sin and uncleanness, which made God angry. General lack of belief is an example sin.
...
1) Why would a general lack of belief prevent Yahweh from manifesting himself?
I think the reason given is sin and uncleanness, which made God angry. General lack of belief is an example sin.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 18, 2017, 02:11AM...the tension seems to arise from the original conception of Yahweh as a simpler god, one among many, not even the head god (who was El)
I know wikipedia and others say otherwise but El is Caananite for god and Yahweh is the name of the God of Abraham and Moses and Isaiah etc. So we have "Here oh Israel, the Lord (Yahweh) your God (El) is one God (Elohim).
So biblically they are not 2 different Gods but 2 different ways of referring to him.
And Thor wouldn't have won, he's a puny god.
I know wikipedia and others say otherwise but El is Caananite for god and Yahweh is the name of the God of Abraham and Moses and Isaiah etc. So we have "Here oh Israel, the Lord (Yahweh) your God (El) is one God (Elohim).
So biblically they are not 2 different Gods but 2 different ways of referring to him.
And Thor wouldn't have won, he's a puny god.
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Quote from: drizabone on May 18, 2017, 03:55AMRetribution can be completely fair and deserved. An eye for an eye is fair isn't it? I would argue that our centralised social justice is based on the Mosaic Law. Obviously modified.
Seems much more straightforward to me that both are based upon a more visceral and obvious notion of reciprocation/fairness, and both also tend to validate vengeance. Rather, it's more accurate to say we use both to validate vengeance.
Quote from: drizabone on May 18, 2017, 03:55AMRetribution can be completely just too which I think it more YHWH's concern than fairness.
Do you mean we humans don't need to worry about that, or that retribution is God's right, or ... ?
Seems much more straightforward to me that both are based upon a more visceral and obvious notion of reciprocation/fairness, and both also tend to validate vengeance. Rather, it's more accurate to say we use both to validate vengeance.
Quote from: drizabone on May 18, 2017, 03:55AMRetribution can be completely just too which I think it more YHWH's concern than fairness.
Do you mean we humans don't need to worry about that, or that retribution is God's right, or ... ?
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: drizabone on May 18, 2017, 03:55AMRetribution can be completely fair and deserved. An eye for an eye is fair isn't it? I would argue that our centralised social justice is based on the Mosaic Law. Obviously modified.
I would suggest that our ideas of social justice date trace to the same attitudes in Job, or maybe even to Abrahamic covenant: the poor and needy are that way because they deserve it, through disobedience or bad genes, depending on your time period.
Our ideas about criminal justice trace to Bentham's ideas of utility calculation from the 1830s, and have been proven wrong, but are still in favor.
I would suggest that our ideas of social justice date trace to the same attitudes in Job, or maybe even to Abrahamic covenant: the poor and needy are that way because they deserve it, through disobedience or bad genes, depending on your time period.
Our ideas about criminal justice trace to Bentham's ideas of utility calculation from the 1830s, and have been proven wrong, but are still in favor.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on May 18, 2017, 03:55AMI would argue that our centralised social justice is based on the Mosaic Law.
There's nothing new under the Sun, is there? All of our basic social ideas have been in circulation for millennia; we just shift emphases around periodically. The current formulations of Western societies were created by people raised with Christian concepts as touchstones, even if they went on to dissect and/or reject those concepts. Certainly some concepts reached us through the lens of Christianity.
Moses wasn't the first - even if we trust the story as it's written down here (a very big if, given that the Exodus narrative appears to contradict (or at least troublesomely fail to be validated by) each of archaelogy, written records, and genetics), we know that ancient Sumer had an extensive welfare system at an earlier date than any possible Moses date - indeed, from a date (in the decades preceding 2000 BC) that takes us further back even than Abraham. And given that Terah lived in Ur, we might reasonably conclude that the law code of a leader in the tradition of a group that counted themselves descended from a Sumerian might be held to owe some ancestral lineage to Sumer.
Quote from: drizabone on May 18, 2017, 04:09AMI know wikipedia and others say otherwise but El is Caananite for god and Yahweh is the name of the God of Abraham and Moses and Isaiah etc. So we have "Here oh Israel, the Lord (Yahweh) your God (El) is one God (Elohim).
So biblically they are not 2 different Gods but 2 different ways of referring to him.
"Biblically" is the key word here. The bible says that they're the same - so there you go, if the bible is all one requires as an evidence source. But if one views the Israelites as just one cultural group in the local melting pot and accepts the available other sources from the local area and period, then a more complex picture emerges. El is well attested as the head of numerous local pantheons in the period prior to the emergence of Yahweh. It's declared possible on the available evidence that Yahweh was a renaming of El, but (that Wikipedia page really is rather good, isn't it?) there are some puzzling elements to Yahweh that don't fit well with El - that in fact fit rather better with Hadad, another god, one subsidiary to El and named as worshipped in the bible in pejorative terms. I look at it and infer that various god concepts were milling around in this period, with inconsistent ideas between different places.
There's nothing new under the Sun, is there? All of our basic social ideas have been in circulation for millennia; we just shift emphases around periodically. The current formulations of Western societies were created by people raised with Christian concepts as touchstones, even if they went on to dissect and/or reject those concepts. Certainly some concepts reached us through the lens of Christianity.
Moses wasn't the first - even if we trust the story as it's written down here (a very big if, given that the Exodus narrative appears to contradict (or at least troublesomely fail to be validated by) each of archaelogy, written records, and genetics), we know that ancient Sumer had an extensive welfare system at an earlier date than any possible Moses date - indeed, from a date (in the decades preceding 2000 BC) that takes us further back even than Abraham. And given that Terah lived in Ur, we might reasonably conclude that the law code of a leader in the tradition of a group that counted themselves descended from a Sumerian might be held to owe some ancestral lineage to Sumer.
Quote from: drizabone on May 18, 2017, 04:09AMI know wikipedia and others say otherwise but El is Caananite for god and Yahweh is the name of the God of Abraham and Moses and Isaiah etc. So we have "Here oh Israel, the Lord (Yahweh) your God (El) is one God (Elohim).
So biblically they are not 2 different Gods but 2 different ways of referring to him.
"Biblically" is the key word here. The bible says that they're the same - so there you go, if the bible is all one requires as an evidence source. But if one views the Israelites as just one cultural group in the local melting pot and accepts the available other sources from the local area and period, then a more complex picture emerges. El is well attested as the head of numerous local pantheons in the period prior to the emergence of Yahweh. It's declared possible on the available evidence that Yahweh was a renaming of El, but (that Wikipedia page really is rather good, isn't it?) there are some puzzling elements to Yahweh that don't fit well with El - that in fact fit rather better with Hadad, another god, one subsidiary to El and named as worshipped in the bible in pejorative terms. I look at it and infer that various god concepts were milling around in this period, with inconsistent ideas between different places.
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ttf_drizabone
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: Baron von Bone on May 18, 2017, 04:14AMDo you mean we humans don't need to worry about that, or that retribution is God's right, or ... ?
I was not clear there was I.
What I mean is that God seems more concerned about being just than with being fair.
Quote from: MoominDave on May 18, 2017, 07:26AM
"Biblically" is the key word here. The bible says that they're the same - so there you go, if the bible is all one requires as an evidence source.
Yes "biblically" is key: not as though I expect you to take it as proof but just to identify the scope of my point.
So I was saying that El is used in the bible to mean god, and this includes Yaweh as well as other gods with their own names like Baal and Marduk. Just like we talk about dog, Fido and Rex.
I was not clear there was I.
What I mean is that God seems more concerned about being just than with being fair.
Quote from: MoominDave on May 18, 2017, 07:26AM
"Biblically" is the key word here. The bible says that they're the same - so there you go, if the bible is all one requires as an evidence source.
Yes "biblically" is key: not as though I expect you to take it as proof but just to identify the scope of my point.
So I was saying that El is used in the bible to mean god, and this includes Yaweh as well as other gods with their own names like Baal and Marduk. Just like we talk about dog, Fido and Rex.
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ttf_MoominDave
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"El" is also used in the bible as a specific name for the Abrahamic god. For example, in the name "Isra-el". It's noteworthy that we saw -el names give way to -iah names as Yahweh-worship gained traction. In the biblical context, it's asserted that El changed name to Yahweh. With eyes that see no reason to treat the bible's words as ultimate truth, it appears that the worship of El gave way to - or perhaps transmuted into, with a certain confusion of deity roles - the worship of Yahweh.
Anyhow - we're all on the same page, I think.
As a completely incidental side point, it tickles me that both Israel and Jerusalem have names that honour deities that predate Yahweh in the region. If I were one of the people who argues vehemently for Yahweh worship displacing all else in these modern places, this perspective would give me a little pause for thought and reflection.
Anyhow - we're all on the same page, I think.
As a completely incidental side point, it tickles me that both Israel and Jerusalem have names that honour deities that predate Yahweh in the region. If I were one of the people who argues vehemently for Yahweh worship displacing all else in these modern places, this perspective would give me a little pause for thought and reflection.
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ttf_MoominDave
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Isaiah 65 text
Highlights
- A proto-heaven concept
Summary
- Yahweh made himself seekable to Israel, but was not sought
- So he'll judge them accordingly
- Those who did seek will be rewarded with descendants
- Yahweh will recreate things so that all is reward for the just
- None will strive against each other
Questions and Observations
1) Abraham's covenant referenced.
2) This sounds rather like the Christian notion of heaven. When did that arise?
Highlights
- A proto-heaven concept
Summary
- Yahweh made himself seekable to Israel, but was not sought
- So he'll judge them accordingly
- Those who did seek will be rewarded with descendants
- Yahweh will recreate things so that all is reward for the just
- None will strive against each other
Questions and Observations
1) Abraham's covenant referenced.
2) This sounds rather like the Christian notion of heaven. When did that arise?
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ttf_MoominDave
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Isaiah 66 text
Highlights
- Judgement is at hand
Summary
- Yahweh made everything, but values those that worship him
- And judges those that don't
- Jerusalem is special
- The faithful will find fulfilment there
- Judgement will come by fire
- Soon Yahweh will gather the faithful to Jerusalem, sending far and wide
- Only the faithful will be left, the unfaithful killed, their dead bodies left as a grisly lesson
Questions and Observations
1) Again, the promise is that this will happen soon. The perspective of an immortal being on time will be different to what we expect, but what I am reading, words written down by humans, does not suggest that those humans thought that they would be waiting thousands of years.
2) It takes a special and intense kind of self-focus to fantasise about all people not like you being killed...
3) So that ends the Book of Isaiah, perhaps the most complex and meaning-negotiable of all the books that we've so far read through in our little venture here. I'll post my summary below, and pause a little for any concluding discussion before we launch into Jeremiah.
Highlights
- Judgement is at hand
Summary
- Yahweh made everything, but values those that worship him
- And judges those that don't
- Jerusalem is special
- The faithful will find fulfilment there
- Judgement will come by fire
- Soon Yahweh will gather the faithful to Jerusalem, sending far and wide
- Only the faithful will be left, the unfaithful killed, their dead bodies left as a grisly lesson
Questions and Observations
1) Again, the promise is that this will happen soon. The perspective of an immortal being on time will be different to what we expect, but what I am reading, words written down by humans, does not suggest that those humans thought that they would be waiting thousands of years.
2) It takes a special and intense kind of self-focus to fantasise about all people not like you being killed...
3) So that ends the Book of Isaiah, perhaps the most complex and meaning-negotiable of all the books that we've so far read through in our little venture here. I'll post my summary below, and pause a little for any concluding discussion before we launch into Jeremiah.