TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 11 text

Highlights

 - The Messiah

Summary

 - there will come a descendant of Jesse, who the spirit of the Lord will rest upon in wisdom.
 - he will fear the Lord and judge with righteousness
 - there will be a time of peace for all life and nations
 - the Lord will recover the remnant from all over the earth
 - the North and South kingdoms will be at peace but their enemies will be destroyed

Questions and Observations

1) This prophecy is considered to be about the Messiah.  In Jewish terms that is a king from the line of David.  Christians are of the opinion that the Messiah is Jesus, and it will be fulfilled at his second coming and some think that the "time of peace" is a reference to a period 1000 years after his return aka "The Millenium"

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 12 text

Highlights

 - The people praise God.

Summary

 - The people will give thanks to the Lord because his anger is turned away and he will comfort them; they will trust him because he has become their salvation
 - they will praise the Lord through all the earth because he has done great things

Questions and Observations

1) everything is as it should be in this chapter: God is caring for his people and they are trusting and praising him.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 13 text

Highlights

 - An Oracle against Babylon

Summary

A vision against Babylon
 - The Lord is mustering an army from the nations to destoy the Babylon
 - The day of the Lord is coming and it will be a cruel and terrible day when the Lord will punish Babylon for its evil
 - I will stir up the Medes against Babylon and they will kill men, women and children.
 - Babylon will be abandoned, no one will live there, only wild animals.

Questions and Observations

1) This is a prediction of something that didn't happen while Isaiah was alive.

2) We've got the 'Day of the Lord' again, a time of cruel and terrible judgement.  God is depicted again as not just being a God of love, he is someone that uses instruments of cruelty to execute his judgement on evil.  He's doesn't seem to be worried about winning a popularity contest does he?  "Believe in me cause I'm nice guy and will act the way you think I should".  Not.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 14 text

Highlights

 - Judgement on Babylon, Assyria and Philistia

Summary

 -  Israel is going to escape from all this destruction in the end. Instead of getting destroyed, they'll end up having aliens from other lands flee to their country.
 - When God lets Israel rest from its tribulations, they will taunt Babylon.
 - All of the dead kings from the underworld, Sheol, will rise up to meet the dead Babylonians who are coming down to join them, saying that the Babylonians have become just like them.
 - Mocking the Morning Star —people will be able to marvel at how he's been cut down - sent down to Sheol.
 - is the same person who had once lorded it over everyone else and taken so many prisoners.
 - While all the other kings of the past lie in glorious tombs, the King of Babylon's corpse will be thrown out like carrion and left for wild animals to eat, with other corpses piled on top of him.
 - The sons of the king will be killed for his sins, too, so that they can never launch a similar reign of terror.
 - After God has destroyed Babylon, he'll let it fall into ruins and pools of water, and sweep it with the "broom of destruction" .
 - the Assyrians are going to get it too, as he has planned beforehand, they will no longer wield power over Israel.
 - And the Philistines are warned not to rejoice because they are next on the hit list
 - The needy of Israel and Judah will find final refuge in Zion.

Questions and Observations

1) The Morning Star is the King of Babylon, but is also thought to have a secondary reference to Satan.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 15 text
Isaiah 16 text

Highlights

 - A prophecy against Moab

Summary

 - a bunch of placess in Moab are destryed in a night
 - everyone there mourns
 - everyone flees, the water dries up and nothing green is left
 - they send a tribute to Zion to ask for refuge for their fugitives
 - the oppression will come to an end and it will be ruled justly by the house of David
 - their boasters will be in vain
 - the fields will be barren and their wine will be ruined
 - Moab will be ruined and her people despised

Questions and Observations

1) Moab was an old enemy of Israel

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 17 text

Highlights

 - A prophecy against Damascus

Summary

 - Next stop, Damascus: it will be ruined and deserted,
 - except for Aram which will be like the glory of the Israelites
 - Israel will be stripped like a harvested field, but the Lord will leave some
 - In that day people will turn away from the man made altars and turn to God
 - Because they have forgotten God their Saviour, their best works will be in vain
 - the nations that rage and plunder the people will be silenced

Questions and Observations

1) Damascus and israel will be punished.
2) It doesn't look as though the prophecy is chronological: it goes from punishment of the baddies to comfort for the remnant and back to punishment

[ttf_MoominDave]

I'd best do some catch-up here... So what have I missed in the first 17 chapters?

Isaiah says:
 - Judah/Jerusalem will be laid waste, Yahweh's favour withheld from them
 - But those that persist there will be glorified
 - Isaiah will tell the people of the consequences of their actions, but they will not change them
 - Eventually everyone will want to follow Yahweh
 - A virgin will give birth as a sign
 - Civil war will occur as outside forces press
 - The current Assyrian problems will abate in time, and Assyria will wane
 - A descendant of Jesse will reassemble Jewish exiles
 - Babylon will fall to Media
 - Various neighbouring states will fall into ruin

A word regarding dates - comparing Isaiah's mentions of monarchs shows us that we should place the start of his career in approximately the 740s BC.
I agree that the chapter order is not narratively sequential. Perhaps it reflects Isaiah returning to earlier themes in later writings.
In chapter 7 an explicit timespan of "within 65 years" is given for the fall of Ephraim (part of the Kingdom of Israel). We are told that this was made in the reign of Ahaz (735-715 BC). The fall of Israel to Assyria occurred in 720 BC. There's no narrative reason to cast doubt on the date of the writing - it would have been obvious at this point that Israel was on the verge of being overrun by the Assyrians; a wise and well-placed man such as Isaiah would have seen which way the political wind was blowing, and such a forecast would have been obvious. In fact he was over-cautious - the fall took place within the decade, but he allowed himself a 65-year margin for it (wise, he'd have been dead by the end of it, so unlikely to be held to account if it failed to happen).
The segment about the virgin birth in ch 7 is in prose - so presumably in the voice of the later editor rather than the prophet? I take your observation that this is a controversial passage within Christian thought, and simply observe that it doesn't give any details beyond the virgin birth bit. A seed of an idea of how to make a later person look like a prophecy come true has been sown, as with the descendant of Jesse bit. Note that very many people came to be descendants of Jesse.
The prophesied deeds of the descendant of Jesse are to reassemble dispersed Jews from Assyria. This sounds to me like a task that would necessarily have had to be completed not that many decades after Isaiah was writing to have had meaning. Certainly the emphasis on Assyrian return makes it completely inapplicable to any political situation that's arisen since Assyria fell to Babylon.
To have prophesied that Babylon would fall to Media was prescient, if we are reading what Isaiah wrote. In the time of Isaiah Media was just starting to rapidly rise, and Cyrus's overthrow of Babylon didn't occur for more than a century after. I am reading Isaiah as an astute observer of local political trends here. Assuming that we aren't simply reading a later rewrite that put what actually happened into his earlier mouth...
The general prophecies of neighbouring states falling are just that - general. No state lasts forever, and this was a turbulent era with much turnover. It would not have risked anyone's reputation to say these obvious generalities, which lack specifics.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Isaiah 18 text

Highlights

 - Isaiah switches to positives - for Cush

Summary

 - Cush is much respected
 - Cush will be spared by Yahweh

Questions and Observations

1) Why would Isaiah have wanted to be nice to Cush? Diplomatic reasons, perhaps?

[ttf_MoominDave]

Isaiah 19 text

Highlights

 - Egypt will fall but rise again as a Hebrew state

Summary

 - Yahweh will crush Egypt
 - And her people will be in a grievous state
 - The Hebrews in Egypt will acknowledge Yahweh and lead their compatriots to safety under him
 - Egyptians, Hebrews, and Assyrians will all worship Yahweh in unity, with transport infrastructure between their nations to match

Questions and Observations

1) It's interesting to see the ethnic mix given here - it obviously wouldn't have seemed strange to Isaiah's readers for there to have been a large Hebrew population in Egypt (5 whole cities). We've seen that there was a tradition of mutual flow between the two areas going back to the earliest times (cf. the Genesis story), and we know that there were significant Hebrew populations there through into the Roman era.
2) Isaiah strikes out here. Assyria fell and never rose again. Egypt fell, but it wasn't the Hebrews that held it up. This one definitely didn't happen, and definitely can't happen.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Isaiah 20 text

Highlights

 - Judah engages in third-party captive-trading
 - Isaiah challenges social mores

Summary

 - Isaiah abandons clothes and footwear; he says Yahweh told him to
 - Isaiah says that Yahweh says that this was an instruction to deliver Egyptian and Cushite captives to the Assyrians

Questions and Observations

1) I can't imagine that sending on your war captives to a third party state would have been smiled upon by the nation one captured them from. If your god tells you to though, who are they to disagree? A clever way to avoid accounting for your actions.

[ttf_drizabone]

Welcome back.  I hope you have recovered from your gall bladder-ectomy.

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 27, 2017, 06:16AMIsaiah 18 text

...

1) Why would Isaiah have wanted to be nice to Cush? Diplomatic reasons, perhaps?

My reading of the chapter is:
- woe to the Cushites
- watch what's going to happen
- the harvest and fruits will be cut down and left to the wild birds and animals
- gifts will be brought to the Lord in Mt Zion

I think that this is another judgment rather than being nice to them.

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 27, 2017, 06:22AMIsaiah 19 text

...

1) It's interesting to see the ethnic mix given here - it obviously wouldn't have seemed strange to Isaiah's readers for there to have been a large Hebrew population in Egypt (5 whole cities). We've seen that there was a tradition of mutual flow between the two areas going back to the earliest times (cf. the Genesis story), and we know that there were significant Hebrew populations there through into the Roman era.

I read this chapter as saying that
- Egypt will be weakened by a civil war and
- that it will be terrified and partially conquered by Israel.
- that Egypt, Assyria and Israel will be similar powers/sizes
- that Israel will be a blessing to the others.

Quote2) Isaiah strikes out here. Assyria fell and never rose again. Egypt fell, but it wasn't the Hebrews that held it up. This one definitely didn't happen, and definitely can't happen.

It definitely can't happen?  A wise man never says never

Some christians think that it will happen in the Millenium.

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 27, 2017, 06:27AMIsaiah 20 text

...

Summary

 - Isaiah abandons clothes and footwear; he says Yahweh told him to
 - Isaiah says that Yahweh says that this was an instruction to deliver Egyptian and Cushite captives to the Assyrians

I don't read anywhere in the chapter that instructs anyone to hand over captives, rather its a picture of what the Lord says will happen and how useless their trust in Egypt is.

What I read is that
- Isaiah is to act out how Assyria will take captives in Egypt and Cush and humiliate them. 
- The purpose of this ("just as") is to show those who live on this coast (ie Judahites) what Assyria will do to those they trusted for help (ie Egypt) so they realise how hopeless their position against Assyria is.

And who would want to be a prophet?

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 21 text

Highlights

 - More judgements

Summary

 - a prophecy announcing the destruction of Babylon
 - a prophecy agains Dumah
 - a prophecy of war in famin in Arabia
 - a prophecy of devastation in Kedar

Questions and Observations

1) I have no idea what the prophecy against Dumah is saying.  Its going to get dark?

2) Incidentally I don't see these prophecies as instructions to Judah to do what is announced.  I understand them as warnings to Judah that these are things that will happen unless they repent of their evil ways.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 22 text

Highlights

 - Judgements on Jerusalem

Summary

 - This chapter begins with an oracle about the "valley of vision."
 - Isaiah asks why people have gone onto on all the roofs and high places in town acting tumultuously and excited.
 - He says it doesn't make sense, since none of their soldiers or leaders died. They just got captured.
 - Isaiah personally just wants some time alone to cry.
 - In the valley of vision, God's has a time of trampling and confusion and wallsg etting knocked down.
- Elam and Kir were the military forces instigating this.
- Isaiah says that people helped knock down houses to build walls and defend against these armies, but they didn't turn towards the person who planned it long ago and who helped them do all this.
 - They should've humiliated themselves and worn sackcloth and mourned. But instead they threw a big party and ate and drank.
 - God says he won't forgive them for this until they die.

 - God tells the people to go ask a steward named Shebna why he's taken over the house he's in and set up a place to live.
 - They're supposed to tell him that God's about to chuck him out and leave him in a foreign land, since he's disgraced his master's house.
 - Instead, God will appoint some dude named Eliakim to take his place. He'll be able to open and close the door of the House of David whenever he wants to.
 - For a while, he'll be like a secure peg that God can hang glory and stuff on. But eventually the peg's going to break, because God wants it that way.


Questions and Observations

1) What's the 'Valley of Vision'?

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 23 text

Highlights

 - An oracle against Tyre

Summary

 - An oracle prophesying against Tyre.
 - Its ships, which once dominated the seas, are going to come back and see how the city has been destroyed.
 - Tyre once dominated trade on the ocean, but now the ocean will say to it that, unlike God, it (the ocean) never begat or raised any children.
 - Egypt will be in anguish over Tyre's destruction
 - They can't even escape by going to the isle of Cyprus.
 - The Assyrians destroyed Tyre and tore down its towers.
 - Tyre will be forgotten for seventy years.
 - But then, like a forlorn prostitute, Tyre will wander around singing songs about how it wishes people remembered to pay attention to it.
 - God will make sure Tyre returns to her trade, like a prostitute restored to business.  - This time, though, it'll all be for God's greater glory. Tyre's merchandise will help people who are devoted to God.

Questions and Observations

1) More of what's going to happen rather than what to do.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 24 text



Highlights

 - Judgements on the whole earth

Summary

 - Now the whole earth will be devestated. No group will escape: priests, maids, slaves, buyers, sellers. They're all in for it.
 - The earth and the heavens both wither up. The people all suffer and die as a penalty for their sins, just as wine dries up when the vine that supplies it withers.
 - No one will be able to party anymore, and there will be a massive wine shortage that depresses all the people still living in these devastated cities.
 - Everyone's going to praise God and sing songs of joy after this has all run its course, but for now Isaiah says that he will just be pining away.
 - Isaiah says that every inhabitant of the earth is at risk of getting destroyed.
 - Anyone who tries to run away will end up getting trapped.
 - The earth will stumble around like a drunkard because of its bad deeds.
 - God's going to punish both his own host, in heaven, and all the kings of the earth.  - They'll be locked up and punished after many days.
 - The moon and sun will both be ashamed because God will rule over the earth with his own glory from Mount Zion.

Questions and Observations

1) It looks like to me that the preceding chapters on punishements for individual nations are just pictures of what was going to happen everywhere.  Although when they wrote the 'whole earth' they were probably just thinking of the middle east.

2) I wonder what teetotal denominations think of vv7-9.  I'll have to ask the local Salvation Army minister.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 27, 2017, 05:08PMWelcome back.  I hope you have recovered from your gall bladder-ectomy.
Working on it. No work as yet. No playing for a while yet.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 27, 2017, 05:08PMMy reading of the chapter is:
- woe to the Cushites
- watch what's going to happen
- the harvest and fruits will be cut down and left to the wild birds and animals
- gifts will be brought to the Lord in Mt Zion

I think that this is another judgment rather than being nice to them.
You may well be right. It's a bit obscure to me.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 27, 2017, 05:08PMIt definitely can't happen?  A wise man never says never
Indeed! But I feel pretty confident in this one. Assyria fell heavily and its former territory and peoples drifted back and forth between various empires for many centuries. The concept of the nation of Assyria died long ago, and has shown no sign of resurrection at any point since. No, I do not see Assyria ever making a comeback.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 27, 2017, 05:08PMAnd who would want to be a prophet?

Well, we have a few applications from keen jobseekers to work through in front of us...

[ttf_MoominDave]

Isaiah 25 text
Isaiah 26 text

Highlights

 - Fruits of victory

Summary

Ch 25
 - Yahweh is credited for the Judah-favouring results of this vision
 - And thanked for the banquet spread he will produce on that day

Ch 26
 - A song of thanks to Yahweh for all this

Questions and Observations

1)

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 29, 2017, 04:54AMIsaiah 25 text
Isaiah 26 text

...

Ch 25
 - Yahweh is credited for the Judah-favouring results of this vision

I think that you're missing important detail
 - the preceding 10 chapters tell of God's punishment of all nations for their wickedness, including Judah
 - in this chapter, the celebration is in Judah, but all peoples participate, it is death that is swallowed up, for all peoples.
 - and he will remove the disgrace from his people.
 - and Moab will get trashed

So, while Judah is favoured, there's more to it than that.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 27 text

Highlights

 - Lots of metaphors
 - Israel's purification

Summary

 - in that day the Lord will punish with his sword
 - in that day the Lord will protect his vineyard
 - the Lord will purify Israel, almost destroying her
 - the Lord will gather his people from the nations like a harvest

Questions and Observations

1) I think vineyard is a metaphor for Israel.  I have no idea what Leviathan is and why it is getting slain.

2) I think that v7-9 is saying that God is punishing Israel like he is punishing that nations, except that for Israel it will have a purifying purpose and that they will be atoned for. but I'm not sure how v10-11 fit in with that.  Any ideas?

3) There are lots of references to "in that day".  I expect that this is a metaphor for another period of time. I guess it could mean a shortish period of time that has distinct boundaries.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 28 text

Highlights

 - More punishment for the Ephraim and Judah
 - God has a plan

Summary

 - The over-fed drunkards of Ephraim wear a garland of flowers that is fading in beauty.
 - But God's going to come and destroy that garland, and the people wearing it, and trample them in the dust.
 - Straggling people will then come by and eat the fallen flowers from the garlands, as though they were figs.
 - God himself will be like a garland or a crown on the remnant his people in that day, ornamenting them with righteousness.
 - Also, all the priests and so-called prophets are drunk on strong drink (maybe metaphorically). They give confused advice and their tables are covered in vomit.
 - A voice asks who will God (or Isaiah) explain his message to. Apparently, people who've been weaned off of breast-milk and can handle learning a little bit at a time—a precept here, a line there.
 - Like Moses, someone (Isaiah?) will speak in a strange language with a stammer, telling his people to give rest to the weary.
 - But they won't listen, so God says they'll just learn a little bit at a time. Finally they will fall back and be defeated because they couldn't learn enough.

 - The rulers in Jerusalem think they've managed to cheat death, making a deal with the Underworld. But they haven't. God's going to totally defeat them.
 - God says that he's laying a cornerstone in Zion that will stand forever. People should trust in it and not panic.
 - God will scourge the rulers with hail and destroy them, washing them away. Beds will be too small and uncomfortable to sleep on.
 - God will rage and accomplish his violent work, destroying all the rulers who thought they'd cheated death.
 - Isaiah rhetorically asks if people who are plowing a field just keep plowing it forever. Or do they plant seeds like dill and cumin in it?
 - And then do they use the wrong implements to thresh the harvest? And do they continue to thresh or do they then grind the wheat.
 - So God this comes from God who knows what he is doing.

Questions and Observations

1) There's a couple of verses here that are applied in the New Testament.

2) Isaiah likes his metaphors

[ttf_MoominDave]

Isaiah 29 text

Highlights

 - Prophesied redemption and salvation of the city

Summary

 - The city of Ariel will be brought low on Yahweh's wish
 - Its many foreign foes will be crushed
 - The people of the city are imperceiving
 - Those that remain faithful to Yahweh bring reward
 - Those that don't are wreckers
 - But they will see, and be punished

Questions and Observations

1) A good prophet cultivates obscurity in their rhetoric. Compare Nostradamus - if people are left debating what you mean, then you've been a success. Certainly Isaiah is proving hard work to decode in various places.
2) Speaking of which, "Ariel" is not the clearest designation. I read that it is held to be a metaphor for Jerusalem.
3) I think vv 9-11 are talking of the people of Ariel lacking perception of the stuff Isaiah is talking about. Or is there a different meaning?
4) All this stuff about everyone in time recognising the right of Isaiah's cause and converging on Jerusalem as a repaired centre of it, acting as a beacon to neighbouring lands... This is quite like the day of judgement and heaven stuff in Christianity, isn't it? Did these Christian concepts develop from this?

[ttf_timothy42b]

Quote from: MoominDave on May 01, 2017, 02:23AM

1) A good prophet cultivates obscurity in their rhetoric. Compare Nostradamus - if people are left debating what you mean, then you've been a success. Certainly Isaiah is proving hard work to decode in various places.

Just to clarify:
Prophecy <does not equal> Prediction.

This is a common error we moderns make that the ancients would not have. 

A prophet is one who has better access to the will of God.  That does not mean he can predict the future except in very general terms, nor is an accurate prediction relevant to his credibility. 

[ttf_MoominDave]

Isn't it? I don't understand why it wouldn't be. After all, Isaiah is supposedly retailing the word of Yahweh. If he says something wrong, then either i) Isaiah misunderstood, in which case his skills don't look good; ii) Yahweh got it wrong, in which case we all look shifty and question the meaning of omnipotence; iii) Yahweh deliberately fed Isaiah wrong information, in which case we all sigh at being played for fools; or iv) Isaiah deliberately produced a false vision, in which case ditto.

[ttf_timothy42b]

Prophecy is about the present.  Prediction is about the future. 

[ttf_MoominDave]

I understand that. I meant that I was confused as to why making an inaccurate prediction wouldn't affect his credibility.

[ttf_timothy42b]

Oh.  Because, when writing about the present in the future, you will always reference past descriptions.  It's a literary technique. 

[ttf_John the Theologian]

[quote  This is quite like the day of judgement and heaven stuff in Christianity, isn't it? Did these Christian concepts develop from this?
[/quote]

I've been been reading some scholarly work on the connection between OT and NT themes-- especially those of eschatology-- the end of our current age- and how it effects the present- what Biblical scholars call the "already and the not yet"-- and there is growing consensus among scholars of many theological persuasions that the New Testament is shot through with Old Testament themes about judgment, the restoration of the cosmos, etc. that are seen as fulfilled in the work of Christ.  In fact the author of the highly regarded book that I'm reading-- and he is just representative of what is becoming a scholarly consensus that the main theme of the New Testament message is an argument that the work of Christ in his teachings, death, resurrection, etc. is seen as an extended argument that the "end"-- i.e. the restoration of what was badly smashed in the beginning of Old Testament-- i.e the "Fall and its consequences" and promised to be restored and put right through the various covenantal promises and especially expanded by the prophets-- have begun their fulfillment in Christ.  He is among many who are claiming that NT not fully understandable at all unless it is een in this light.

In other words the argument of scholars such as Greg Beale-- the one I've been reading- is that the Christian message is "echatological" to the core because the OT has that at its heart and the NT is claiming that the Christian message is the correct conclusion to the OT emphasis.  Whatever, one thinks of the individual texts, I believe that this new scholarly consensus that has emerged is absolutely correct on this main theme.  Whether one agrees with the truth of this is, of course, a faith commitment, but the themes of creation-fall-redemption-restoration-- in a variety of modes-- seems to be a new consensus among biblical scholars for the "story-line" of the Bible.

[ttf_timothy42b]

Quoten fact the author of the highly regarded book that I'm reading-- and he is just representative of what is becoming a scholarly consensus that the main theme of the New Testament message is an argument that the work of Christ in his teachings, death, resurrection, etc. is seen as an extended argument that the "end"-- i.e. the restoration of what was badly smashed in the beginning of Old Testament-- i.e the "Fall and its consequences" and promised to be restored and put right through the various covenantal promises and especially expanded by the prophets-- have begun their fulfillment in Christ.  He is among many who are claiming that NT not fully understandable at all unless it is een in this light.

I've bolded a word.  I think it is easy when surrounded only by the most conservative seminarians to assume their viewpoint is shared, except maybe by some wacko liberal theologians.  Actually neither liberal nor mainstream theologians would agree. 

Surely you don't believe in a literal Fall? 

Actually, I suspect you most surely do, including no physical death prior. 

Here, check this link out for an example of the conservative seminary approach:

http://thecripplegate.com/how-to-spot-a-liberal-seminary/

[ttf_John the Theologian]

Quote from: timothy42b on May 01, 2017, 08:44AM

I've bolded a word.  I think it is easy when surrounded only by the most conservative seminarians to assume their viewpoint is shared, except maybe by some wacko liberal theologians.  Actually neither liberal nor mainstream theologians would agree. 

Surely you don't believe in a literal Fall? 

Actually, I suspect you most surely do, including no physical death prior. 

Here, check this link out for an example of the conservative seminary approach:

http://thecripplegate.com/how-to-spot-a-liberal-seminary/



You are right that I do believe in a "literal fall."  However, that doesn't mean that I'm committed to a young earth-creation science approach-- I'm not.  On some of the details of how to interpret Genesis 1-2 I hold them rather lightly and believe that there can be considerable variation among what can be considered "orthodoxy."  However, a "literal fall" is a non-negotiable to me. That's a debate for another time.

I think, however, that you have misunderstood my post.  What I as talking about was that there seems to be a fairly growing consensus among biblical scholars of all stripes about the biblical text demonstrating a creation, fall, redemption, restoration model of some sort that makes the best sense out of what the biblical compilers were attempting to do.  This by no means should be taken that some of those scholars who believe that is what the biblical text teaches actually believe that that is true-- many do not-- nor that they agreed on many of the details-- they do not.  Skeptics abound, even among those who claim to be some sort of Christians-- sad to say in my opinion, but that's another issue. 

My point was that in working through the massive text I'm reading on the relating of the OT to the NT, what struck me is that while the specific details were often all over the board among scholars, the agreement on the main story line was more unified than I have seen before.  The main debate seemed to be just what the "center" of the biblical story line should be called-- covenant, promise, promise-fulfillment, kingdom, etc.  Some recent suggestions-- which I personally like-- are calling for a somewhat composite "center" which sees a plot-line that combines some of these themes rather than must one key-word theme.

Certainly there were still scholars who see no unity of themes in the biblical texts as a whole, but they were fewer in number than I remembered the last time I worked with this material.

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: timothy42b on May 01, 2017, 05:16AMJust to clarify:
Prophecy <does not equal> Prediction.

This is a common error we moderns make that the ancients would not have. 

A prophet is one who has better access to the will of God.  That does not mean he can predict the future except in very general terms, nor is an accurate prediction relevant to his credibility. 

I agree that prophecy is not identical to prediction. And that a prophet has better access to God's will but I probably understand that differently to you.

My understanding of prophecy is:
- prophecy is speaking a message from God
- it is often directed to the people that are hearing the prophecy and includes calls to repentance and the announcement of future actions by God, to punish evil people, or rescue people or to further his master plan.
- Deuteronomy says that a prophet's message has to be consistent with existing teaching - so no making stuff up.
- the issue that a prophets credibility is based on his predictions is discussed in Deuteronomy too.

Quote from: Deuteronomy 18"17 Then the Lord said to me, ‘They have spoken well. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 I will hold accountable whoever does not listen to My words that he speaks in My name. 20 But the prophet who dares to speak a message in My name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods—that prophet must die.’ 21 You may say to yourself, ‘How can we recognize a message the Lord has not spoken?’ 22 When a prophet speaks in the Lord’s name, and the message does not come true or is not fulfilled, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him."

- at least in the OT, true prophecy consisted of passing on a message from God, rather than talking about your insights 
- often a prophecy had an contemporary application and a future one.  eg the babies in Isaiah 7,8 and 9
- I don't think that the prophet necessarily understood the future application of the message
- the death penalty for making up prophecies doesn't apply any more and wasn't often applied in the OT.
- I think that prophets should be subject to penalty if they're predictions failed.  Not necessarily death though.

Quote from: timothy42b on May 01, 2017, 06:28AMOh.  Because, when writing about the present in the future, you will always reference past descriptions.  It's a literary technique. 

So whats the purpose of technique? Wouldn't it include the idea that the current (future) event or person fulfills the passage that it is quoting?  eg when Matthew quotes Isaiah 9 in the gospel he is claiming that Jesus fulfills the description of that baby in that he is Emmanuel etx ...

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on May 01, 2017, 02:23AMIsaiah 29 text

...

Questions and Observations

1) A good prophet cultivates obscurity in their rhetoric. Compare Nostradamus - if people are left debating what you mean, then you've been a success. Certainly Isaiah is proving hard work to decode in various places.

You've got the general picture of the prophecy but not the kpi of a good prophet.  The wicked are going to get punished and Israel/Jerusalem is going to be the centre of blessing for the world.  I don't think that we are supposed to be concerned with unravelling the tiny details.  The prophetic genre often uses graphical symbolic language that is good for conveying big picture concepts but not for specifying detail clearly and unambiguosly.

Incidentally does your big picture remind you of God's promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob back in Genesis? (all will be blessed through you)

Quote2) Speaking of which, "Ariel" is not the clearest designation. I read that it is held to be a metaphor for Jerusalem.

that fits with the first couple of verses

Quote3) I think vv 9-11 are talking of the people of Ariel lacking perception of the stuff Isaiah is talking about. Or is there a different meaning?

I think its a judgment that is continued in vv13-16.  ie Since the people only pay God lip-service and don't put any heart into what they're doing, God's going to punish them and take away the wisdom from their wise men. But he stops them from hearing any more warnings because they have ignored the law and warnings before.

Jesus does a similar thing in the gospels with parables.

Quote4) All this stuff about everyone in time recognising the right of Isaiah's cause and converging on Jerusalem as a repaired centre of it, acting as a beacon to neighbouring lands... This is quite like the day of judgement and heaven stuff in Christianity, isn't it? Did these Christian concepts develop from this?

Yep. 

Actually the NT talks about the afterlife being on a new earth, so heaven may be on earth.  But like Isaiah, its prophetic and in picture language so I won't be dogmatic about the detail.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 30 text

Highlights

 - More punishment for rebellious Israel
 - But God will spare some.  Then they will return to him.

Summary

 - God prohibits Israel from trying to make an alliance with Egypt and Pharaoh to receive their protection, even though they're already doing it.
 - It will all come to humiliation and shame. Pharaoh can't protect them.
 - People in the desert try to bring trade-goods and gifts to Egypt, but it all amounts to nothing. Egypt is the same as the serpent, Rahab: a great beast that just sits still.
 - As for the people of Israel and Judah, they refuse to do what is right and listen to their prophets and seers.
 - The people only want to hear illusions and deceit.
 - For doing all this, they'll be punished in the same way that a wall suddenly collapses on an unsuspecting person.
 - The devastation will be so massive, it'll be like a clay pot smashed into uselessly tiny bits.
 - Instead of turning to quietness, peace, and goodness, they will try to simply flee from the destruction. This won't work out.

 - But God is going to show mercy in the end, anyway.
 - God will answer their cry and comfort them. They'll finally get to see their teacher and will turn away from their bad deeds and abandon their idols.
 - They'll hear a voice telling them the right things to do.
 - Everything will be prosperous. The fields will be full, the cows and oxen will be able to graze, and tons of brooks will run down mountains and hills. But somehow, this will also be the same as the day of destruction.
 - The light of the moon will be like the light of the sun, and the sun will be seven times brighter.
 - God will heal all the injuries that have been afflicted on his people.

 - The anger of the Lord (now, aimed at everyone) is pretty scary: God's tongue is like fire, his breath like a stream that inundates people. He'll bridle people just to lead them astray.
 - People will cheerfully be heading to God's festival and at that same time he's dishing out divine vengeance—his arm will descend in fury, and there'll be cloudbursts and storms and hailstones.
 - The Assyrians will cower before God, as he destroys them.
 - And God has also prepared a "burning place" for their king.

Questions and Observations

1) The historical background of this is that Judah were being threatened by Assyria so sought an alliance with Egypt, despite God (Isaiah) having told them not to worry about Assyria.

2) Isaiah's theme so far seems to be:
  - the nations are bad and will be punished
  - Israel are rebellious and will be punished
  - some from Israel will be spared and will enjoy peace and prosperity
  - whoever is left from the nations will share in this

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 31 text

Highlights

 - God as Aslan

Summary

 - God says, again, that people shouldn't be so impressed by Egypt or trying to make an alliance with them.
 - They should put their trust in God, since he's spirit, and the Egyptian horses are only flesh.
 - Both Egypt and Israel are going to be punished, both the helper and the helped.
 - God will be like a lion, unperturbed by the shepherds who are yelling at it for attacking their herds.
 - He will protect Jerusalem like a flock of birds hovering over Mount Zion, too.
 - God tells Israel to turn back to God and stop worshipping idols which, in the end, they'll throw away.
 - The Assyrians will be destroyed with God's sword, and their young men will be made into slaves.
 - God says that his fire and furnace are located in Jerusalem .

Questions and Observations

1) I'm just imagining Isaiah standing on a street corner in Jerusalem calling out this same message, time after time, and everyone coming out of the underground station, walking past him on the way to work, with their coffee, thinking that he's one of those old crazy doom-sayers that don't know what they're talking about and how they wish he would just shuffle off and leave them in peace.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 32 text

Highlights

 - Isaiah condems the ruling elite

Summary

 - But amidst all the chaos that's taking place, Israel will find a just king who will be like a refreshing stream or "the shadow of a great rock in a weary land."
 - Instead of having their eyes closed and ears shut, they'll be opened, and the people will know the truth.
 - The villains are going to get punished, no one will think that fools are noble, and the truly noble will stand out heroically.
 - Isaiah tells the "women at ease" not to be complacent—the harvest isn't going to come next year. Therefore, they should strip off their clothes and put on sackcloth and wail.
 - The palace and the city will be deserted—wild asses and flocks will roam around there instead.
 - But when a spirit on high is poured out on the people, the wilderness will be transformed into a fruit field. The fruit field (a different one) will be transformed into a wilderness. The order of the world will be totally reversed: Justice will reign in the wilderness and righteousness in the field.
 - Everyone will live in peace—donkeys and oxen can range freely—and the forest and the city will both disappear.


Questions and Observations

1) I can imagine the kings, nobles and "women at ease" not being happy with Isaiah's messages.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 33 text

Highlights

 - more wickedness, destruction, and then peace

Summary

 - God warns evil-doers that, when they stop destroying things, they'll be destroyed. And the treachery they've used will be turned back against them.
 - Isaiah asks God to have mercy on the people and pays tribute to God's strength and battle prowess.
 - He says that the fear of God is Zion's greatest treasure.
 - But valiant people are crying in the streets; no travelers are on the highways. Lebanon and other places are withering away. It's a mess.
 - God says that he will exalt himself by destroying all the evil-doers, like throwing thorns into a fire.
 - God asks the people to acknowledge him and poses the question, "Who can endure my fire?" No surprise—it's righteous people, who don't look at evil or take bribes.
 - The righteous will be able to take refuge in rocks and have enough food and water to survive.
 - They will see a beautiful and majestic king in a land that is equally great.
 - Instead of being surrounded by Babylonians and other foreigners who don't speak their language, they'll see that Jerusalem has become a nice, quiet, pious place.
 - God will be present, but like a river that can't be crossed by human ships.
 - Everyone will divide up their spoils, including the lame.
 - Sickness will disappear and everyone will be forgiven for their sins.


Questions and Observations

1) Isaiah complains about the evil in the land and its affects, then tells how God will fix it, and then he gives us the end state.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 34 text

Highlights

 - Hellish Devastation

Summary

 - God announces to all the nations of the world that he's doomed them
 - Corpses will pile up everywhere; mountains will overflow with blood.
 - The host of heaven and the skies themselves will disappear or be rolled up.
 - God's sword will be gorged with the blood and fat of all the people it killed and all the animal's sacrificed to it, in

places like Bozrah and Edom.
 - God will turn the rivers of Edom into burning pitch forever. It'll be a wasteland with only birds and hedgehogs owning it.
 - He'll spread chaos and devestation so there will be no kingdom there
 - wild animals will move in (like ostriches and jackals). They'll all get to chill and relax there, inhabiting it forever.

Questions and Observations

1) The devastation in this chapter sounds similar to that at the end of the book

2) Isaiah tells of Moab being covered in sulphurous soil turning into burning pitch - forever. Its pretty hellish but Moab is

still inhabited by animals where the owl rests and raises her young.  So Isaiah thinks that owls can live with the burning

pitch or he's painting a picture of devastation and punishment.  I reckon that he's painting a picture for us rather than

giving us a detailed report.

Isaiah 35 text

Highlights

 - No more scary stuff

Summary

 - The wilderness and desert will both be blessed with plenty, plants and blossoms coming out all over. They'll be just as

nice as Lebanon was.
 - Isaiah speaks a little prayer urging people to be strong and trust that God will save them.
 - In the end, the deaf and the blind will be able to see, the lame will be able to leap around, and streams will break out

in the middle of the desert.
 - The places where jackals used to roam will be turned into a swamp, and a highway called the Holy Way will run through this

land.
 - God's people will travel on the highway, and not even fools can wander off it.
 - The redeemed will walk down the road, heading towards endless joy, safe from dangerous animals.


Questions and Observations

1) It looks like the punishment theme is over - for the moment anyway

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 36 text

Highlights

 - Judah in a pickle

Summary

 - Three Jewish officials—Eliakim, Shebna, and Joah—come out from the walls of Jerusalem to meet with the Assyrians.
Sennacherib's vizier (like a high-ranking political advisor), the Rabshakeh, tells them to give a message to their king,  - Hezekiah, mocking their alliance with Egypt.
 - The Rabshakeh says that they might say that they're actually relying on God more than on Egypt—but isn't it God who ordered the King of Assyria to attack and destroy Judah in the first place?
 - Eliakim, Shebna, and Joah ask him to speak to them in Aramaic instead of Hebrew, so that the Jewish soldiers standing on the city walls won't be able to understand what their conference is about.
 - The Rabshakeh says that his master has sent him to deliver the message to the men on the wall as well as the officials, and since the people on the wall are doomed to meet the same fate as all the other Hebrews they should get to hear it too.
 - But, says the Rabshakeh, if they don't listen to Hezekiah and his orders to rely on God to save them, if they welcome the King of Assyria into Jerusalem instead, then they'll be able to eat their own grapes and figs and drink their own water before the King of Assyria takes them away to serve in his own kingdom. That place is supposed to be pretty nice.
 - The Rabshakeh says that none of the gods of any of the other cities Assyria has conquered managed to save those places, so why should Jerusalem expect anything better?
 - They refuse to answer Rabshakeh (Hezekiah told them not to). But they tear their clothes and run to tell Hezekiah what the Rabshakeh said.

Questions and Observations

1) This chapter moves from recording prophecies back to narrative. The Assyrian king, Sennacherib, has just taken over every fortified city in Judah and has Jerusalem under siege.

2) The Rabshakeh is a good negotiator.  Maybe Theresa May should hire him.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 37 text

Highlights

 - Hezekiah v Sennacherib

Summary

 - When Hezekiah hears the message, he freaks out, tears his clothes, and does the whole sack-cloth-and-wailing routine.
 - He sends Eliakim, Shebna, and the senior priests to take counsel from Isaiah.
 - Isaiah tells them to tell Hezekiah not to worry. God's going to punish Sennacherib by putting a spirit in him, so that he'll hear a rumor and return to his own land, where he'll end up getting killed.
 - The Rabshakeh brings Isaiah's message to Sennacherib, who is occupied with fighting other battles, elsewhere.
Sennacherib tells him to send another snarky message, asking Hezekiah how he expects his God to resist Assyria when the Assyrian kings have beat down so many other gods.
 - Hezekiah gets Sennacherib's message, which he then takes to the Temple and spreads it out before God.
 - Hezekiah prays for God to save Jerusalem, telling him about how arrogant Sennacherib's boasts are, and also about how he has burned the idols of other people's gods. Hezekiah suggests that it would be good P.R. for God to defeat the Assyrians, since all the nations would then know that God was real.
 - Isaiah relays a message from God to Hezekiah: Assyria is like a haughty Mean Girl, tossing her hair in front of God's daughter, Zion.
 - He angrily rebukes the Assyrian King for his boasts, talking about how he's cut down the tallest trees in Lebanon and dried up Egypt with his own foot (and things like that).
 - God notes that he, alone, has allowed Sennacherib to attack and plunder all these cities and lands. He knows when Sennacherib is asleep and awake, and when he's been bad or good… and he's been very bad, indeed.
 - God says he'll put a hook into Sennacherib's nose and turn him right around, sending him back to Assyria.
 - Before ending his prophecy, God offers words of reassurance to Judah: Jerusalem won't fall to Assyria's siege, a remnant of Judah will survive, and Sennacherib will return to his home.
 - The next day, this is all fulfilled. The angel of God slaughters 185,000 Assyrian troops during the night.
 - Sennacherib returns to Assyria, but his sons plot against him and kill him, leaving one of them to become his successor.

Questions and Observations

1) This chapter should have some interest for Dave.  There are lots of historical references.

2) This page looks detailed and historical http://www.historynet.com/assyrian-march-against-judah.htm
   as does this http://www.ancient.eu/sennacherib/
   and this http://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2014/assyria-to-iberia/blog/posts/sennacherib-and-jerusalem
   and this http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/military-history/jerusalem-surviving-the-second-siege-by-assyrian-king-sennacherib/
   And then there is Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Siege_of_Jerusalem

3) The biblical accounts of this are in
   - 2 Kings 18,19.  This is identical to Isaiah.
   - 2 Chronicals 32.  This is much more concerned with the religious implications and activities

4) The articles agree that Jerusalem was not destroyed and that Hezekiah got to stay as King. Some indicate that Hezekiah had to pay tribute for the privilege and some talk of a plague that caused the Assyrians to leave.  I guess the historical sources were originally propaganda from each country so would likely tell different stories, or maybe there were 2 sieges.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on May 02, 2017, 05:37PMIsaiah 31 text

1) I'm just imagining Isaiah standing on a street corner in Jerusalem calling out this same message, time after time, and everyone coming out of the underground station, walking past him on the way to work, with their coffee, thinking that he's one of those old crazy doom-sayers that don't know what they're talking about and how they wish he would just shuffle off and leave them in peace.

I'm seeing him as more of a boutique purveyor of hand-crafted oracles. One of those palace employees that has a great deal of free time, but occasionally is summoned to advise on matters of high state.

Quote from: drizabone on May 02, 2017, 05:51PMIsaiah 32 text

 - Isaiah tells the "women at ease" not to be complacent—the harvest isn't going to come next year. Therefore, they should strip off their clothes and put on sackcloth and wail.
 - The palace and the city will be deserted—wild asses and flocks will roam around there instead.

1) I can imagine the kings, nobles and "women at ease" not being happy with Isaiah's messages.

My knowledge of agriculture is non-existent. Is it possible to accurately predict a failed grape harvest in this region based on the previous year's conditions? Then - did he get it right? Was this inserted after the fact?

Quote from: drizabone on May 03, 2017, 06:14PMIsaiah 36 text

1) This chapter moves from recording prophecies back to narrative. The Assyrian king, Sennacherib, has just taken over every fortified city in Judah and has Jerusalem under siege.
Cf. 2 Kings 18

Quote from: drizabone on May 03, 2017, 06:14PM2) The Rabshakeh is a good negotiator.  Maybe Theresa May should hire him.

I dare to hope that everything Theresa May has done since taking over has been done in the name of giving this stupid Brexit idea enough rope to hang itself. The alternative is that we're being led by people who are completely clueless as to how to approach the topic. She's certainly talking Rabshakeh tough, but only succeeding in looking like somebody wildly out of their depth. Aargh.

It seems from the use of the definite article that "Rabshakeh" was a title rather than a name.

Quote from: drizabone on May 03, 2017, 08:03PMIsaiah 37 text

1) This chapter should have some interest for Dave.  There are lots of historical references.
We've already covered it all in 2 Kings. This makes me wonder if the compiler of 2 Kings had a copy of Isaiah to hand when they were writing?

Worth noting as we did before that Sennacherib didn't just go home and die, which is the impression given by both books. Sennacherib lived 20 years after he turned back from besieging Jerusalem.

Quote from: drizabone on May 03, 2017, 08:03PM2) This page looks detailed and historical http://www.historynet.com/assyrian-march-against-judah.htm
   as does this http://www.ancient.eu/sennacherib/
   and this http://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2014/assyria-to-iberia/blog/posts/sennacherib-and-jerusalem
   and this http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/military-history/jerusalem-surviving-the-second-siege-by-assyrian-king-sennacherib/
   And then there is Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Siege_of_Jerusalem

3) The biblical accounts of this are in
   - 2 Kings 18,19.  This is identical to Isaiah.
   - 2 Chronicals 32.  This is much more concerned with the religious implications and activities

4) The articles agree that Jerusalem was not destroyed and that Hezekiah got to stay as King. Some indicate that Hezekiah had to pay tribute for the privilege and some talk of a plague that caused the Assyrians to leave.  I guess the historical sources were originally propaganda from each country so would likely tell different stories, or maybe there were 2 sieges.

Thanks for the sources. The first points out a detail I'd overlooked - Isaiah earlier in his work disparaged the defensive efforts of King Hezekiah that led to the siege being unsuccessful. He seems more approving now.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Isaiah 38 text

Highlights

 - Hezekiah sickens and recovers

Summary

 - Hezekiah became very sick
 - Isaiah in Yahweh's voice advised him to put his affairs in order
 - Hezekiah prayed to Yahweh, emphasising his enduring faith in him
 - Isaiah in Yahweh's voice advised him that he would live 15 more years and that Jerusalem would not fall
 - The sun went backwards on the sundial as a sign

 - Hezekiah's song of thanks
 - Isaiah applies a fig poultice to Hezekiah's boil

Questions and Observations

1) Again, this was previously covered in Kings and Chronicles.
2) Goes without saying - sun going backwards on the sundial = physical impossibility.
3) A boil doesn't sound like the sort of thing one dies from?

[ttf_MoominDave]

Isaiah 39 text

Highlights

 - Hezekiah's diplomatic relations with Babylon

Summary

 - Merodach-baladan, King of Babylon, sent goodwill envoys to Hezekiah on hearing of his sickness and recovery
 - Hezekiah trustingly showed them his assets
 - Isaiah was appalled at his naivety, counselling that Babylon would one day be the enemy

Questions and Observations

1) What kind of politician do we see Isaiah as? He was intensely concerned with the maintenance of his national and religious identity, to the apparent exclusion of all else. Different times, of course - this was the main game in town in his place and time; the pressing questions related to avoiding being squashed by vying mightier powers. Even within this highly nationalist paradigm, he seems to stand out in his level of acerbic crustiness focussed on what he perceives as the national self-interest, expressed via his religious identity. In contrast to the Jesus depicted in the New Testament, who seems a classic 'lefty', we can easily picture Isaiah fuming in from the right wing.
2) This chapter finishes "proto-Isaiah", which, in that model of the book, concludes the section thought possible to be associated with the historical Isaiah. We've seen many of his oracles, and had some incidents in his life described.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Isaiah 40 text

Highlights

 - Poetry dealing with the greatness of Yahweh

Summary

 - Yahweh requests gentle treatment for Jerusalem
 - A voice cries out to prepare the way for this
 - Contrast human ephemeralness with the word of Yahweh
 - Yahweh knows everything; he cannot be compared to anything

Questions and Observations

1) Starting "deutero-Isaiah" now. This certainly represents a dramatic shift in style from any of the chapters before it.
2) Another brass band music reference - Robert Redhead's "Isaiah 40". Redhead is a Salvation Army composer, and the commission of this piece in 1995 marked the first time a serving SA officer had been permitted to write a piece for the secular band contesting scene. A landmark piece, though not in my view one of the highest quality, or of particularly obvious relation to the subject material. It's quite an enjoyable listen though.
3) Is the voice referenced in v3 Isaiah?
4) How about in v6? Maybe he is the responder?

[ttf_John the Theologian]

Best movie usage of this text is in Chariots of Fire where Eric Liddell is seen reading from the 2nd half of this text in church on a Sunday morning while the Olympic games he won't participate in on that day-- Sunday-- are going on.

Great creative use of the text showing young athletes falling while the voice-over reads the verse about young men growing tired and weary.

Quite an effective use of the text in one of my favorite movies, even if I do know that this scene, like some others in the film, has some Hollywood "license" in it.

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on May 04, 2017, 05:50AMIsaiah 39 text

...

Questions and Observations

1) What kind of politician do we see Isaiah as? He was intensely concerned with the maintenance of his national and religious identity, to the apparent exclusion of all else. Different times, of course - this was the main game in town in his place and time; the pressing questions related to avoiding being squashed by vying mightier powers. Even within this highly nationalist paradigm, he seems to stand out in his level of acerbic crustiness focussed on what he perceives as the national self-interest, expressed via his religious identity. In contrast to the Jesus depicted in the New Testament, who seems a classic 'lefty', we can easily picture Isaiah fuming in from the right wing.

I don't really see him as a politician.  I think his role was telling the people that they were evil and announcing the consequences of there behaviour.  as per his call in chapter 6

How does he differ to Jesus? Jesus too did his share of telling people off for their bad behaviour (aka not following God) but he also got to announce that this behaviour could be forgiven if it was repented of.   

Quote from: MoominDave on May 04, 2017, 06:10AMIsaiah 40 text

2) Another brass band music reference - Robert Redhead's "Isaiah 40". Redhead is a Salvation Army composer, and the commission of this piece in 1995 marked the first time a serving SA officer had been permitted to write a piece for the secular band contesting scene. A landmark piece, though not in my view one of the highest quality, or of particularly obvious relation to the subject material. It's quite an enjoyable listen though.

I've played Quintessence, that was fun.

Quote3) Is the voice referenced in v3 Isaiah?
4) How about in v6? Maybe he is the responder?

v3... is John the Baptist John 1:23, and he probably preached on the whole passage.

But in Isaiah's context its probably a metaphor for what he's saying.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 41 text

Highlights

 - Fear Not, for I Am with You

Summary

 - Isaiah tells the people of the coastlands to listen to him in silence as the people recover from the war trauma they've suffered.
 - He asks the people who called the Assyrians out of the East and then defeated them. God even answers the question for them "I am." he says
 - The people are trying to stick together and help each other in the war's aftermath—with goldsmiths helping other artisans... etc.
 - God tells them to take heart and to realize that Israel is still his servant, still his chosen ones
 - Everyone who opposes them will be defeated. Israel won't be able to even find enemies anymore (a welcome change from the near-constant history of siege thus far).
 - God calls Israel a worm and an insect, yet still offers lots of help, giving them the power to knock over mountains and crush them to pieces. Not a bad day for a bug.
 - God is going to take care of the poor and the thirsty and needy. He'll also make water flow in dry places, and cause nice trees to grow up in the wilderness and the desert—all so that people will know of his power and mercy.
 - God dares the people to try to get good advice from their idols or learn about the future from them. Ultimately, it'll come to nothing because the idols are frauds and their worship is an abomination.
 - God reminds them that he alone stirred up a power from the north, which came and crushed nations like broken clay pots. None of the idols could predict that it would happen—only God.
 - God alone gives comfort to Jerusalem, whereas the idols are like "an empty wind."

Questions and Observations

1) God: 1,000,000. Idols: 0.

2) We've moved from warnings of punishment to promises of comfort.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 42 text

Highlights

 - The Servant of the Lord

Summary

 - God will send a servant to the world, a person who pleases and delights him. God loves effective people.
 - The servant will spread justice to all the nations, but he'll be so meek that he won't even break a bruised reed or put out a dimly burning wick.
 - He be discouraged until he's succeeded at his mission.
 - God tells the servant that he's given him as a covenant with his people and a light to the nations. He'll help free prisoners from their dungeon, and open the eyes of the blind.
 - God says that he's only spoken of things that already have happened, but now he's telling the people of new things.
 - Isaiah asks the people to sing a new song, praising God. All over the land, towns and cities will raise up their voices, doing the same.
 - God will go out, and lay waste to the land. He'll cry out like a woman in labor, eager to have the waiting over and start wreaking righteous judgement on the natural world. 
 - He will lead the blind along unfamiliar paths.
 - God won't forsake his people, but he will turn back idolaters.
 - He tells the blind and the deaf to look at his servant   
 - God notes that Israel has been given many signs and messages, but they refuse to pay attention to any of them. God, quite pleased with his righteousness, reminds Israel that he saw fit to give them a great and glorious set of laws.
 - Isaiah reminds the people that they have been robbed and plundered, living in prisons and holes.
 - "Isn't anyone gonna save them?" Isaiah asks rhetorically.
 - Alas, as we've heard many a time, God wanted them to follow his laws, but they wouldn't. So he poured out his wrath like fire on Israel, which still failed to get his message.

Questions and Observations

1) In one sense Israel was God's servant, and that's what Jews thought, but the NT claims this role for Jesus.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on May 04, 2017, 11:20PMI don't really see him as a politician.  I think his role was telling the people that they were evil and announcing the consequences of there behaviour.  as per his call in chapter 6
But yet he was a confidant and advisor to kings, someone whose words were written down by such historically notable people that we're talking about them most of 3,000 years later. This wasn't some penniless street ranter.

Quote from: drizabone on May 04, 2017, 11:20PMHow does he differ to Jesus? Jesus too did his share of telling people off for their bad behaviour (aka not following God) but he also got to announce that this behaviour could be forgiven if it was repented of.
One of Jesus's main concerns was about the equitable treatment of all people. He disdained those that followed money, and glorified those of low station. Isaiah's cares were all about the maintenance of power in his religion, and the maintenance of his state as a bolster to that. If they were standing together in a parliament, they would be on opposing benches, for all that they have Yahweh in common. Just as many of our modern politicians of both left and right share Christian world-views.

Quote from: drizabone on May 04, 2017, 11:20PMI've played Quintessence, that was fun.
That one's passed me by as a player thus far. Just listening to the only YouTube version now. Redhead in general doesn't tend to hit my spot, I must say. If I had to pick a single SA composer of his era for listening pleasure, it would definitely be Ray Steadman-Allen. For example, his Seascapes is magnificent.

Quote from: drizabone on May 04, 2017, 11:20PMv3... is John the Baptist John 1:23, and he probably preached on the whole passage.

But in Isaiah's context its probably a metaphor for what he's saying.

Unless it's an addition by a later author, of course. Which doesn't mean that the hypothetical later author couldn't be writing in the voice of Isaiah, using a metaphor for Isaiah speaking. This is all quite confusing. No wonder people make careers out of interpreting this stuff.

Quote from: drizabone on May 04, 2017, 11:36PMIsaiah 41 text

v23 interested me:

Tell us what is to come hereafter,
    that we may know that you are gods;

I've had the feeling through this book that when I've mentioned the propensity of Isaiah to make "divinely-inspired" predictions about the future, people have been shuffling their feet and looking around embarrassedly, as though they'd rather he hadn't. This verse tells us as clearly as it is possible to do that these people held the knowing of the future to be an integral part of the object of any worship system worth worshipping. Modern Christians are rather less into this (sensibly, in my view). It is intriguing to trace the evolution of what is held to be definite through the lifetime of a religion.

Quote from: drizabone on May 04, 2017, 11:55PMIsaiah 42 text
1) In one sense Israel was God's servant, and that's what Jews thought, but the NT claims this role for Jesus.

Yes, this seems very clear, doesn't it? Before this, I hadn't realised to what extent Jesus was leaning on the words of Isaiah, despite their philosophical differences. It's striking that such an ardent traditionalist, one who died over 6 centuries years before the birth of the latter figure could have inspired such a radical mover.

But then, I ask myself... Isaiah was pushing Yahweh at a time when Yahweh was only one among several widely-pursued religious interests of Israel and Judah. Am I seeing him as more reactionary than he actually was - did he too have a radical streak?

[ttf_MoominDave]

Isaiah 43 text

Highlights

 - Yahweh 4 Israel

Summary

 - Yahweh will protect Israel
 - And regather its children from diaspora
 - See Yahweh - he is the tops
 - Yahweh sees that he has not been honoured as earlier books requested
 - But is willing to overlook this

Questions and Observations

1) Why is he willing to overlook this? He often hasn't been, in the story told.
2) It's striking how writers in Judah refer to themselves as "Israel". A strange old circumstance that leads to them putting their national rivals on a pedestal like this.
3) This chapter (v10) explicitly states that Yahweh is the only god - or at least the oldest, and one that will outlive all others. Compare with the many references to other gods found elsewhere in the bible.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Isaiah 44 text

Highlights

 - More extolling of Yahweh's mightiness

Summary

 - Yahweh provides streams
 - Yahweh is the only god
 - Idols are temporary and should not be worshipped
 - Yahweh does everything...
 - ...including directing Cyrus

Questions and Observations

1) Hey! Here's something interesting. We assume that "Cyrus" refers to Cyrus the Great, the exile-ending Persian king, who lived some 150 years after Isaiah. If we have at all an evidence-based head on, we must conclude from this that we are reading writing that was written long after the historical Isaiah lived. As we saw in ch 42 (vv24-25), the writer is now talking about the destruction of their country in the past tense, whereas there had previously been much made in this book of it being in the future. The argument for a division of this book into time-separated authors starts to become clear, with this section being pennable at the earliest shortly before Cyrus permitted the exiles to return.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Isaiah 45 text

Highlights

 - Thank you Cyrus!

Summary

 - Cyrus is an instrument of Yahweh, despite his not being a worshipper of him
 - Things will be good from now on

Questions and Observations

1) The new good fortune did not last forever, needless to say.
2) I wonder how Cyrus felt about being portrayed by his subjects as a tool of their foreign god.