Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

ttf_bassmike · Post by **ttf_bassmike** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:58 am

Quote from: Ellrod on Feb 14, 2014, 08:21PMAnyone want to take a run at explaining what this means:

The Chicago model trombone was designed with the famed Chicago Symphony Low Brass section in mind. With this instrument, we have captured the best qualities of the CSOs ideal trombone sound

I think what they meant is that they copied the specs of the friedman model Bach. For example, both the Friedman Model and the Chicago Model have nickel .562 bore slides mid-lightweight gold brass bells and thayers. Mulcahy has almost the same specs on his horns.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:41 pm

Have there been any requests for an alto with a 5VNY style bell, or would that be too weird of a choice for the bell?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:52 pm

Quote from: ChisTruBoreShires on Mar 05, 2014, 04:41PMHave there been any requests for an alto with a 5VNY style bell, or would that be too weird of a choice for the bell?

This is the first I've seen mention of it, but there have been requests for type 5 bells on other instruments. One piece bells require different tooling than two-piece bells. Making that tooling available for all of our different bells types would be prohibitive.

It's not a weird choice, but it isn't one that is likely for the foreseeable future.
-Ben

ttf_droffilcal · Post by **ttf_droffilcal** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:49 pm

What about a .547 horn with an 8 inch bell and a non-wide slide ? In other words, a large bore tenor built on a smaller chassis, kind of like the 1920s era Conn 8Hs that you sometimes find with the 8 inch bell and regular width slide.....

Has anyone ordered one ? Have you guys experimented with something along those lines ? Ben, don't you have one of those mythical 8 inch bell 8Hs ? I'm thinking open blowing but more focused than the modern orchestral .547 tenor.......

ttf_Malec Heermans · Post by **ttf_Malec Heermans** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:27 pm

And sort of along those same lines... any plans for TIS horns beyond the alto?

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:01 pm

Quote from: droffilcal on Mar 07, 2014, 01:49PMWhat about a .547 horn with an 8 inch bell and a non-wide slide ? In other words, a large bore tenor built on a smaller chassis, kind of like the 1920s era Conn 8Hs that you sometimes find with the 8 inch bell and regular width slide.....

Has anyone ordered one ? Have you guys experimented with something along those lines ? Ben, don't you have one of those mythical 8 inch bell 8Hs ? I'm thinking open blowing but more focused than the modern orchestral .547 tenor.......

I have an 8" bell I use with two different slides. a TW47G and a T0825GLW. Not quite the same thing that you were asking, but I love both of them. I have a 42 bell that's going to be mounted very soon, but the 36 bell I have works great for pretty much everything I've been doing between both of those slides.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:16 am

Quote from: droffilcal on Mar 07, 2014, 01:49PMWhat about a .547 horn with an 8 inch bell and a non-wide slide ? In other words, a large bore tenor built on a smaller chassis, kind of like the 1920s era Conn 8Hs that you sometimes find with the 8 inch bell and regular width slide.....

Has anyone ordered one ? Have you guys experimented with something along those lines ? Ben, don't you have one of those mythical 8 inch bell 8Hs ? I'm thinking open blowing but more focused than the modern orchestral .547 tenor.......

We absolutely have done this! And its available with with stock parts. Our T47 slide is a narrower, Conn-style width and any of our large bore bells are available in 8".

The T47 slide usually sounds darker than the wide slide, though doesn't have the same breadth of sound. The 8" bell is more focused with no discernible loss in tonal color. The 2RVE 8 and 1YM 8, in particular, are spectacular bells for this kind of application.

Many Orchestral players that come through have been shocked at how these things sound. Most prefer to keep their wide slides (for breadth of sound) but some are using the 8" bells for pops work, recitals, or high orchestral parts that could use some more focus and a lighter touch. Ken Thompkins (principal trombone in Detroit) has a 2RVE 8 that raves about.

Along these same lines, our .525 variants with large shank leadpipes often shock people as well. The Ralph Sauer model (dual bore .525/.547, narrow) is a dense, focused, rich sounding instrument. The TW25 sounds so much like a light sounding .547 with a nimble feel while retaining a nice breadth of sound. The standard T25 adds density and focus. I often hand these to players without telling them the bore size and they are shocked to find out they aren't large bores. My own T25NLW/1YM 8 often travels with me to show and large bore players are floored after trying it.

Good stuff indeed!

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:31 am

Quote from: malec on Mar 07, 2014, 04:27PMAnd sort of along those same lines... any plans for TIS horns beyond the alto?

Yes and no.

We have the capability to easily build a Tuning slide trombone in any of our standard bore sizes, and we have made some replacement slides for vintage Conn bass trombones (there are some caveats, but PM me if you are interested and/or want to hear more about it).

The alto trombones are TIS because we found that the overtones line up in a more familiar manner than when we did tuning in bell. This makes the horn more familiar, easier to play, etc. We haven't had those same issues with the other trombones so they remain tuning in bell.

I know it has been discussed often here about the benefits of TIS and I, quite frankly, am a believer. But in order it to work, it would have to be done right. The real issue is the bell branch, with a continuous taper from receiver to bell ferrule. This would require a good amount of development and tooling and there are other things that demand more immediate attention.

If something changes, I will be sure to let you all know!

Ben

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:25 am

Ben-- GASP-- what are you saying?

Are you suggesting that it might have been possible for Gord Pulis to have played principal in the New York Philharmonic on a .522 bore Conn trombone in the 1940s????

Are you saying that -- like the rest of the world-- we "might" be playing with our EYES instead of our EARS??

I'm just kidding.
Thanks for the GREAT news.
I know that you're not suggesting anything, just reporting what you see occasionally.
Still, to my way of thinking its progress.

I just watched the Essentially Ellington documentary " Chops" on Netflix. It gives me hope. Potentially 1,000 high school bands finding joy in playing small bore straight tenor trombones to play MUSIC? Its too wonderful to contemplate. Potentially 3,000 kids finding for themselves that a small bore straight tenor is FUN?

My thanks to Shires for making the effort to design and produce with improvements, as quickly as required and requested, small bore trombones. Its a slight ripple-- but its still a ripple, and ripples effect tsunami eventually.

ttf_The Bone Ranger · Post by **ttf_The Bone Ranger** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:58 am

Quote from: griffinben on Mar 08, 2014, 05:16AMThe T47 slide usually sounds darker than the wide slide, though doesn't have the same breadth of sound. The 8" bell is more focused with no discernible loss in tonal color.

And this, for many people, takes a while to get your head around. Myself included! Most assume that breadth of sound is aligned to darkness. I own a mid 60's Bach bass trombone that changed my concept. It's much darker sounding than my dual-bore Edwards bass, but it definitely doesn't have the same breadth of sound...

Andrew

ttf_salsabone · Post by **ttf_salsabone** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:52 am

Ben,
Will Shires have a booth at the Eastern Trombone Workshop?
Kevin

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:38 am

Quote from: salsabone on Mar 09, 2014, 08:52AMBen,
Will Shires have a booth at the Eastern Trombone Workshop?
Kevin

We will be displaying in conjunction with Sheridan Brass at the Eastern Trombone Workshop.

-Ben

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:00 am

Quote from: The Bone Ranger on Mar 09, 2014, 05:58AMAnd this, for many people, takes a while to get your head around. Myself included! Most assume that breadth of sound is aligned to darkness. I own a mid 60's Bach bass trombone that changed my concept. It's much darker sounding than my dual-bore Edwards bass, but it definitely doesn't have the same breadth of sound...

Andrew
Interesting that I've never paralleled darkness and breadth of sound. For me it's always depended on the brand/build of horn and, even then, it varies from horn to horn.

ttf_cigmar · Post by **ttf_cigmar** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:57 am

Ben,

I've been playing on a TB47 but I feel my sound is too wide and spread. Would switching to a TW47 help to focus and add more core to the sound? Could you please explain the intended characteristics of the two and what one might expect to achieve with either?

Thanks.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:18 pm

Quote from: cigmar on Mar 31, 2014, 10:57AMBen,

I've been playing on a TB47 but I feel my sound is too wide and spread. Would switching to a TW47 help to focus and add more core to the sound? Could you please explain the intended characteristics of the two and what one might expect to achieve with either?

Thanks.

A TW47 will have a more compact feel and will focus the sound more than your TB47 while still retaining a characteristic large bore trombone sound. The TW47 is, by far, our most popular large bore trombone slide.

The TB47 has a bass trombone slide crook, like a Bach 42. Some players prefer this sound and feel, which is why we offer it.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:28 am

the corrigan approach would be to build
a modular slide
like some valve bones w ts on end of ''slide''
than adjusta width at top plus the bore
carbon fiber and titanium could reduce weight
easily to under 3 pounds
since the retirement of the space shuttle
r&d facilities could easily bring new product to market
kids formerly dreaming of space
could dream about slides
the forum is the final frontier
slide-o-nauts
----------
the placement of [such] a very well rounded player{s} in direct[and close] relationship to development and manufacturing
have been mutually beneficial -especial for shires which was needing greater input on the smaller [jazz] bore bone
in some and many ways a 42b has in effect become a ''student'' horn

<Edit: Fixed strike out. DJ -- How many times do I have to tell you not to use square brackets on plurals!!!>

ttf_chrisniblett · Post by **ttf_chrisniblett** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:46 am

Quote from: chrisniblett on Feb 10, 2014, 10:05PMMany thanks Ben, I'm looking to visit Phil Parker in the next week so will give it a go!
Evening All! Having tried some I've ended up with a completely different setup to what I thought I wanted.... B62, indie trubores, BII 1R, Gold single radius crook... Its a beast & I love it! Now.. a dumb question, how do you oil trubores? Do you feed them down the tuning slides like an axial? Thought i'd better ask before doing!

ttf_chrisniblett · Post by **ttf_chrisniblett** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:18 am

PS... Whilst I'm asking dumb questions.... does anyone know what case the trubores will fit in? Marcus Bonna? Its a 9 1/2" bell model.
cheers
Chris.

ttf_JimR · Post by **ttf_JimR** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:50 am

From the Shires web site (under the FAQ section). Take a look

TruBore valves should be oiled as follows:

Once every 2-3 days, a few drops of a Rotary or Piston Valve oil should be applied to the inside of the valve. Apply through the slide receiver and the smaller leg main tuning slide receiver. On the TruBore Valve, you can also apply 2-3 drops of oil in the groove underneath the valve cap On a dependent bass set, you will need to apply some oil through a valve tuning slide receiver; simply be careful to drip directly down the center of the tube, to avoid picking up tuning slide lubrication before getting to the valve rotor. Generally we recommend Hetman Light Rotor Oil for this purpose, but some players prefer the faster action of Hetman Piston or Classic Piston Oil.

Once a week, apply a drop of Spindle Oil, also called Bearing or Linkage Oil, to the valve spindles. We recommend Hetman Light Bearing & Linkage Oil for this purpose.

Please keep in mind that your trombone is a finely tuned instrument assembled individually, piece by piece by master craftsmen and as such, should be treated with respect. Please, do not force anything, trying for tighter or looser. If you cant move it, it probably shouldnt be moved. Do not disassemble the valve. If you develop a problem or have a question that isnt addressed here, CALL US!! We love to hear from our customers and can usually talk you through any minor problems over the phone. If not, we can recommend authorized Shires repair techs and provide them with the assistance and/or parts they might need to get your instrument back into perfect playing condition. Please remember that any unauthorized tampering or repairs to any part of the instrument voids any and all factory warrantees.

Cheers
Jim

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:29 pm

Quote from: chrisniblett on Apr 04, 2014, 09:46AMEvening All! Having tried some I've ended up with a completely different setup to what I thought I wanted.... B62, indie trubores, BII 1R, Gold single radius crook... Its a beast & I love it! Now.. a dumb question, how do you oil trubores? Do you feed them down the tuning slides like an axial? Thought i'd better ask before doing!

Hello Chris,

Congratulations on your new horn!

I can't tell you how many times someone comes into the factory expecting to buy one thing and winding up with a completely different set of specs.

OK, oiling the valve...you can oil through the valve slide tubes and through the neckpipe and slide receiver as well. Most importantly is to use the right oil/s.

The core should be oiled as mentioned above with Hetman #11 light rotor oil.
The spindle (under the rotating arm attached to the lever) should be oiled with Hetman #13 Light Bearing Oil

Why Hetman? Because it is a synthetic formula that we knows works. Other non-synthetic oils are too thick for our tighter clearances and will either gum up the valve or not get all the way around the moving parts, causes bad action and/or premature wear. If you find that you have to oil your valves more often than is normal after a couple of months, go on to Hetman #12 Rotor oil and/or Hetman #14 Bearing and Linkage oil.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I want to take a moment to talk about oiling one's valves. Using the right oil and oiling properly and often is paramount to your instrument lasting as long as possible.

Modern instruments from premier makes,like Shires, have a much more precise fit with tighter clearances than professional model instruments from 20 or more years ago and much more precise than student or intermediate model instruments as well.

This precise fit is part of what makes the instrument play the way that they do (and part of why other horns don't feel this way).

This is also why you have to use different oils and oil in a different routine than you did with your horn that cost a lot less. Its also why your vintage horn needs less oil.

So please, oil your valve everyday you play. A drop or two on the spindle of bearing/linkage oil. A few drops (sometimes more) of rotor oil into all of the valve ports. If it's an axial valve, you need to use more rotor oil. If you are putting the horn away for more than a couple of days, please oil the valves before you put it in the case. If it's going to be a couple of weeks or more, make sure you give it more oil than you normally do.

Oil is cheap, your horn was expensive. Repairs are expensive.

Use more oil!!!

Ben

P.S. A Marcus Bonna case will fit your Tru-bore valved bass fine.

ttf_chrisniblett · Post by **ttf_chrisniblett** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:50 pm

Many thanks for the info folks, i'm on it now!

ttf_cigmar · Post by **ttf_cigmar** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:52 am

Ben,

On the Shires website it states the 7 and 8 bells "combine the best playing characteristics of both one piece and two piece bells." What are the specific playing characteristics of each of the one piece and two piece bells, and how do the 7 and 8 bells combine these characteristics?

Thanks.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:03 pm

Quote from: cigmar on Apr 10, 2014, 11:52AMBen,

On the Shires website it states the 7 and 8 bells "combine the best playing characteristics of both one piece and two piece bells." What are the specific playing characteristics of each of the one piece and two piece bells, and how do the 7 and 8 bells combine these characteristics?

Thanks.

This is a great question.

One piece bells are typically very flexible (in terms of timbre) and blend extremely well, but do not always project very well or have extremely clean articulation. Two piece bells tend to have an excellent projection, sound articulate, and feel very stable but sometimes are not very flexible in tonal color and sometimes are harder to blend with.

The 7 bells combine flexible tonal color and blending characteristics with a stable feel, color, projection, and clarity of articulation.

The 8 bells are, quite honestly, not as successful for most people as the 7 bells or the 2 bells (unsoldered, traditional two-piece). Something gets lost in the translation. We will only make these bells by special order, now.

Thanks, I hope that helps.
Ben

ttf_cigmar · Post by **ttf_cigmar** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:29 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Apr 10, 2014, 12:03PMThis is a great question.

One piece bells are typically very flexible (in terms of timbre) and blend extremely well, but do not always project very well or have extremely clean articulation. Two piece bells tend to have an excellent projection, sound articulate, and feel very stable but sometimes are not very flexible in tonal color and sometimes are harder to blend with.

The 7 bells combine flexible tonal color and blending characteristics with a stable feel, color, projection, and clarity of articulation.

The 8 bells are, quite honestly, not as successful for most people as the 7 bells or the 2 bells (unsoldered, traditional two-piece). Something gets lost in the translation. We will only make these bells by special order, now.

Thanks, I hope that helps.

Ben

Exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. Thank you. As a follow up, what different characteristics can one expect from say a 7Y, 7YM, and 7YLW bell?

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:59 pm

Quote from: cigmar on Apr 10, 2014, 12:29PMExactly the kind of answer I was looking for. Thank you. As a follow up, what different characteristics can one expect from say a 7Y, 7YM, and 7YLW bell?

I can answer that one, to some degree. If you are familiar with different brass gauges in the same alloy and what the different weights actually do, it's easy. The Shires bells generally play, sound and and feel almost one weight heavier than how they are marked. So the M bells feel a just a little bit heavy, the LW bells feel pretty mainstream...maybe a little quicker and brighter than say a stock Elkhart Conn reg. weight bell...and the "reg. weight" bells have some interesting mass to them. Your results may differ, but that's what I have noticed over years of trying bells at the factory, at conventions and at home. When I started playing Shires horns about 12 years ago I liked the regular weight bells...often in red or gold brass...but styles change and so do people. Things are getting brighter these days. My current fave is an 8" 7LW on my smallbore slides. I think if I was playing a great deal of orchestral or chamber work I'd feel the same way on larger bores as well. I still like my 2RVE bells as a soloist on .525 + .547, though. Lots of depth to the sound right on up to f and beyond. Good in brass quintets, too.

Later...

S.

ttf_TromboneMonkey · Post by **ttf_TromboneMonkey** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:09 pm

Quote from: sabutin on Apr 10, 2014, 12:59PMI can answer that one, to some degree. If you are familiar with different brass gauges in the same alloy and what the different weights actually do, it's easy. The Shires bells generally play, sound and and feel almost one weight heavier than how they are marked. So the M bells feel a just a little bit heavy, the LW bells feel pretty mainstream...maybe a little quicker and brighter than say a stock Elkhart Conn reg. weight bell...and the "reg. weight" bells have some interesting mass to them. Your results may differ, but that's what I have noticed over years of trying bells at the factory, at conventions and at home. When I started playing Shires horns about 12 years ago I liked the regular weight bells...often in red or gold brass...but styles change and so do people. Things are getting brighter these days. My current fave is an 8" 7LW on my smallbore slides. I think if I was playing a great deal of orchestral or chamber work I'd feel the same way on larger bores as well. I still like my 2RVE bells as a soloist on .525 + .547, though. Lots of depth to the sound right on up to f and beyond. Good in brass quintets, too.

Later...

S.

Watch me fail miserably at my guesswork here:

I would say the LW is 23 gauge (.23"), the M is 22 gauge (.25"), the regular is 21 gauge (.285"), and the HW is 20 gauge (.32"). How close am I?! Is that top secret info? Michael Davis is 24 gauge (.20")??????

Thanks again Ben for being so gracious as to toss us all of this information so far.

ttf_Dennis Clason · Post by **ttf_Dennis Clason** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:01 pm

Quote from: TromboneMonkey on Apr 10, 2014, 03:09PMWatch me fail miserably at my guesswork here:

I would say the LW is 23 gauge (.23"), the M is 22 gauge (.25"), the regular is 21 gauge (.285"), and the HW is 20 gauge (.32"). How close am I?

Off by at least an order of magnitude...

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:56 pm

Haha, those would be REALLY thick bells!

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:40 pm

Yeah. Even the Vocabell wasn't that thick.

ttf_TromboneMonkey · Post by **ttf_TromboneMonkey** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:33 pm

Haha yeah sorry. Toss the 0 in there.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:00 pm

I, of course, can't comment on what gauge metal we use for what. But, Sam's observations are pretty much on the money.

When Steve started the business, almost twenty years ago, heavier bells were in favor. So the "standard" weight was heavier than what we might think the median is today. The bells get progressively lighter from there, medium and then lightweight...But they are generally heavier than what you might compare to another brand using the same adjectives. There is occasionally call for something lighter than our LW bells, but we do it special order, only.

More important than just the weight is the overall combination. Just like different cooking ingredients, all of the factors of a bell can add up to sum greater or less than the sum of its parts. In general, certain bells work better in certain weights, tapers, treatments, materials, (etc.) for the majority of players. Certain recipes become classics. Others are more of an acquired taste.

I hope that makes sense.

-Ben

ttf_TromboneMonkey · Post by **ttf_TromboneMonkey** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:19 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Apr 10, 2014, 09:00PM
More important than just the weight is the overall combination. Just like different cooking ingredients, all of the factors of a bell can add up to sum greater or less than the sum of its parts. In general, certain bells work better in certain weights, tapers, treatments, materials, (etc.) for the majority of players. Certain recipes become classics. Others are more of an acquired taste.

I hope that makes sense.

-Ben

Indeed. I've always been a fan of lighter horns. That was, before I tried the Williams.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:08 am

Which Shires instead of a Bach 42?

Hello all, I'm playing a Bach LT 42 BG and now I'm flirting with the idea to buy a Shires, because I tried one from a friend & liked it very much... That one had got a Red Brass Bell (2 RVE T7 or 2 R T7). I like the sound of my Bach very much but want to have an easier response and more loudness. There are so much possibilities, which combination should I try? Thanks!

ttf_Duffle · Post by **ttf_Duffle** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:35 pm

Ben,
just wondering where the 2RVE and 2RVE T7 bells fit into the Shires weight nomenclature. Are they made from the same gauge as the LW bells?.....

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:45 pm

Steve Shires doesn't refer to gauge, and he generally doesn't disclose those kinds of specs. If you're standing in front of him, he'll usually tell you what thickness sheet metal he starts with, but he'll also tell you that that's only part of the story.

I can tell you that the starting sheet metal thicknesses of HW, standard, M and LW bells vary a bit by alloy, and that the VE bells are similar to LW bells if you go by measurements, but in some ways more similar to type 2 (unsoldered) M bells in gold and yellow brass if you go by sound and playing characteristics.

Steve uses the analogy of a high-end restaurant. You can learn most of the ingredients of a dish by reading the menu, but that doesn't tell you proportions, and it doesn't tell you everything the chef does.

ttf_daveyboy37 · Post by **ttf_daveyboy37** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:43 pm

I noticed that I don't see any of the artist models listed on the website anymore, like the Ralph Sauer "travelbone". Are they no longer being offered, or is the website just being simplified?

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:25 pm

Quote from: Duffle on Jul 09, 2014, 01:35PMBen,
just wondering where the 2RVE and 2RVE T7 bells fit into the Shires weight nomenclature. Are they made from the same gauge as the LW bells?.....

Gabe pins it in terms of gauge or weight. There's more to it than just the originating metal. I can tell you this about those bells, though...the regular 2RVE bells play "heavier" than most of the bells that I played there while deciding which one to get. Not darker exactly, and certainly not slow to react. To use a boxing or martial arts metaphor, they play the same way as a good boxer hits when he sets his feet and punches from the hips. They have broad power and force. They're not like a jab or a punch thrown while doing evasionary maneuvers with the feet. They have body. Boxers call it "setting down on a punch." It's the thing I most like about them.

Look at my icon for more on the subject. The "Old Mongoose," Archie Moore.

Here's a bigger version.

If he was a bell he would be a 2RVE. A light heavyweight champion.

Bet on it.

S.

ttf_WaltTrombone · Post by **ttf_WaltTrombone** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:24 am

Quote from: daveyboy37 on Jul 09, 2014, 07:43PMI noticed that I don't see any of the artist models listed on the website anymore, like the Ralph Sauer "travelbone". Are they no longer being offered, or is the website just being simplified?

IIRC, the Artists themselves had contracts with Shires, not Eastman. As things move along, I'm sure at least some, if not all of those will sign up with the new regime.

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:26 am

Quote from: WaltTrombone on Jul 10, 2014, 05:24AMIIRC, the Artists themselves had contracts with Shires, not Eastman. As things move along, I'm sure at least some, if not all of those will sign up with the new regime.

That's more or less correct. I believe they need to have new contracts with the reorganized Shires company, and it was part of the bankruptcy/reorganization process that public reference to the old contracts had to be removed.

This is being worked on actively by one of the Shires sales staff.

ttf_lukeaar · Post by **ttf_lukeaar** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:38 am

Is this getting in the way of the development of any new signature models?

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:12 am

Quote from: lukeaar on Jul 10, 2014, 05:38AMIs this getting in the way of the development of any new signature models?

I can't say for sure, but probably only in so far as the transition has taken up a lot of time.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:22 am

Quote from: Tromborinha on Jul 09, 2014, 11:08AMWhich Shires instead of a Bach 42?

Hello all, I'm playing a Bach LT 42 BG and now I'm flirting with the idea to buy a Shires, because I tried one from a friend & liked it very much... That one had got a Red Brass Bell (2 RVE T7 or 2 R T7). I like the sound of my Bach very much but want to have an easier response and more loudness. There are so much possibilities, which combination should I try? Thanks!

The answer is...I don't know.

Without having a place to start, it is almost impossible to recommend anything. I CAN say that the characteristics of easier response and better projection (I assume this is what you mean by more loudness...no horn will give you greater dynamics than an individual can produce, louder or softer) are hallmarks of our horns. We can do a horn with those characteristics that sounds and feels similar to a 42BG, but then you get into another can of worms...which 42BG? I've never seen or played 2 exactly the same.

Something you should beware of is that if you pursue a Shires it will not be a Bach and will never sound just like a Bach. It will sound like a Shires. We can emulate many of the same characteristics, but it will never be exactly the same.

I would recommend going to a trade show that we are displaying, a well stocked dealer, or a trip to the factory. Or if you have a lot of friends with them, maybe organize a kind of "Shires day" and mix and match parts to get a better idea of what works best for you.

I hope that helps,
Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:24 am

Quote from: lukeaar on Jul 10, 2014, 05:38AMIs this getting in the way of the development of any new signature models?

No.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:30 am

Everything Ben said is right on. However if you really liked the one you tried start with that setup and go from there.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:38 am

I'm a Bach 42 to Shires convert myself. I actually have a 42G bell on my horn right now. When I started out, I literally switched from a Bach 42 that was converted to be Shires compatible, to a B62 slide... to a TW47 slide... now on a T47LW slide. Pretty much every component has changed in one way or another to the point where my horn is much more 'Conn like' than 'Bach like'. I'm selling the 42G bell in hopes of eventually getting the Ralph Sauer bell. I've yet to try a bell that gives me the sound I have in my head as much as that bell.

ttf_C. Clark · Post by **ttf_C. Clark** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:08 am

What are the characteristics of a steel bead wire on soldered bells and what're the differences when compared to standard wire types?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:09 am

Quote from: C. Clark on Jul 10, 2014, 08:08AMWhat are the characteristics of a steel bead wire on soldered bells and what're the differences when compared to standard wire types?

Very generally...steel beadwires add lots of brilliance and have more pointed articulations when compared to a similar wire of the same size but different material.

That said...

The success of this is entirely dependent on the bell you ordered and the set up of the rest of the horn. Steel beadwires are custom order only (meaning non-returnable) and we would only recommend them for VERY specific players and set-ups. We do not advertise them for trombones and would recommend that you speak to someone at the factory before making that decision.

-Ben

ttf_bonedude · Post by **ttf_bonedude** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:15 am

Do you guys anticipate speeding up production in the future? 4 to 6 weeks for an unthreaded brass leadpipe is a lot longer than the other manufacturers I have gone through.

ttf_daveyboy37 · Post by **ttf_daveyboy37** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:51 am

Quote from: bonedude on Jul 10, 2014, 11:15AMDo you guys anticipate speeding up production in the future? 4 to 6 weeks for an unthreaded brass leadpipe is a lot longer than the other manufacturers I have gone through.
Well, remember that their horns use threaded leadpipes, and meeting their own need is primary. Once they get the threaded collars on, they may not want to remove them, or it may not be possible to remove them without damaging the pipe.

Like many companies out there Shires most likely does not have someone producing leadpipes all the time. There just isn't enough need. So they maybe get the tooling all set up for leadpipes once a month, and then make a whole bunch. That may be what the "4 weeks wait" is about.

ttf_SilverBone · Post by **ttf_SilverBone** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:45 pm

I switched from Bach 42 to Shires, and the components I liked best for that were:

1G bell, yellow brass tuning slide, TW47L slide w/#2 leadpipe, Thayer valve.

YMMV, of course.