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[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs

+2&version=ESV]Proverbs 2 text[/url]

Highlights

 - the value of Wisdom

Summary

 - Listen carfully my son
 - so you can understand the fear of the Lord and right behaviour
 - To get WISDOM and be delivered from crooked and devious paths
 - especially the forbidden woman, the adulteress, who leads to death
 - so you will be able to inhabit the land and not be cut off from it

Questions and Observations

1) its interesting how WISDOM is personified as a virtuous woman and foolishness as the forbidden woman, the adultress.

This was not a society with a refined approach to gender roles. We'll get to a 'woman's wisdom' section later - but it's only the second half of the final chapter of the book. This was evidently largely intended as precepts for a male audience.

They probably realised that it was the guys that needed instruction in wisdom

Proverbs 3 text

Highlights

 - It's good to be wise

Summary

 - It's all very well to learn this stuff, but one must keep remembering it through the years
 - In particular, stay faithful
 - Becoming wise is a blessing, an aid in difficult situations
 - Deal honestly with people
 - Do not admire violence

Questions and Observations

1) Again, as Martin pointed out, wisdom is personified as female. Yes, this is an interesting twist. I am not totally sure I intuit why - something like: Wisdom may be acquired by a man, and the acquiring of it makes him better; as with the acquiring of a good woman. Perhaps? The idea of a woman as a man's property is disgraceful today, but fitted with the society that the writer was writing in.
2) I'm liking the lessons in this book so far that aren't sacred. Or gender-based.

Proverbs 4 text

Highlights

 - Its still good to be wise

Summary

 - Listen carefully son, as I pass down the wisdom I learnt from my father
 - get WISDOM, prize and value her, she will reward you
 - get WISDOM and be delivered from crooked and devious paths
 - Listen to my words: live long and prosper: stay on the path of right

Questions and Observations

1) similar advice to the previous chapter.  I guess the sons need the advice to be repeated.

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 24, 2017, 07:56PM  I guess the sons need the advice to be repeated.

Those sons are all of us. 

Unless you happen to be female.

Quite wordy so far, this book. Mostly quite generally vague - I imagine things will get more specific as we go on? Let's find out...

Proverbs 5 text

Highlights

 - Be a faithful husband

Summary

 - Do not have sexy times with inappropriate women, on pain of religious judgment
 - Avoid situations where the temptation may arise
 - Appreciate your wife, and relish the sexy times with her

Questions and Observations

1) Sensible stuff - don't just avoid unfaithfulness, but also avoid situations where it becomes a risk. This could be the basis for an advice column.
2) Getting more specific now.
3) Quite racy and explicit this... Verse 19: "Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight".

Proverbs 6 text

Highlights

 - Miscellaneous precepts

Summary

 - If you are financially liable for someone else's actions, be watchful over them
 - Be like the ant - grow your resources in good times in preparation for bad
 - "Sowing evil" is bad, and doing so will get you your come-uppance in time
 - Follow your parents, and do not be ensnared by wicked temptresses
 - Don't commit adultery; it's not worth it - the deeds rebound on you in many kinds of unfortunate ways

Questions and Observations

1) Not entirely sure I've decoded the first precept correctly? On the face of it, it's an instruction to excuse yourself from obligations, but that surely can't be right... Seems more likely to me to be an instruction to be vigilant about what's owed to one. What do you reckon?
2) Aesop also valued the example of the ant. And lived at a broadly similar time to this, coincidentally. Perhaps both Aesop and the Proverb-collector were drawing on what was ultimately the same source material?
3) The description of a "worthless person" is rather strange. "Crooked speech" makes good metaphorical sense. But "winks with his eyes, signals with his feet, points with his finger"? Some cultural connotations that have long been lost, I suspect. This simply perplexes now.
4) And then: "things that the Lord hates, [...] an abomination to him"... All except the first item seem an excellent list of things to avoid. But: "haughty eyes"? Again, surely some long-lost cultural connotation here; this seems simply nonsense to me.
5) Prostitutes must have been cheap in ancient Jerusalem... Or maybe bread was expensive?

Proverbs 7 text

Highlights

 - Some more words against adultery

Summary

 - Avoid temptresses
 - An example is described where a wife with absent husband seduces a man
 - Don't do this - religious judgment will go against you

Questions and Observations

1) The author is really hammering home the desirability of not sexually straying, isn't he? Another chapter devoted to the topic. And it's framed in terms of avoiding the allures of the woman. I suppose the book so far is clearly intended for a male audience, but it grates a bit to have the gender balance cast in this way, as if women spend their time trying to tempt men with men trying to resist. Way over-simplified.
2) And if the author was as contended the much-married, much-concubined, and much-adulterated Solomon, then these words ring very hollow indeed...
3) Given the huge emphasis so far placed on the subject, adultery must have been very common in this society.

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 25, 2017, 08:01AMProverbs 6 text

...

1) Not entirely sure I've decoded the first precept correctly? On the face of it, it's an instruction to excuse yourself from obligations, but that surely can't be right... Seems more likely to me to be an instruction to be vigilant about what's owed to one. What do you reckon?

Its not super clear is it.  I was thinking that his friend might have defaulted, and he was being advised to take action urgently and go to lender and sort out the issue, even if it meant asking for mercy.

The call to action is repeated in the next paragraph too

Quote3) The description of a "worthless person" is rather strange. "Crooked speech" makes good metaphorical sense. But "winks with his eyes, signals with his feet, points with his finger"? Some cultural connotations that have long been lost, I suspect. This simply perplexes now.

It is perplexing.  I usually assume that these use the same technique as in Jewish poetry where they are repeating or contrasting with similar statements around it.  So in this case rather than being distinct devious behaviours they are pictorial ways of saying "with perverted heart devises evil, continually sowing discord". 

But it does sound similar to movie gamblers who have secret signs that allow them to pass on info while talking about something else.

Quote4) And then: "things that the Lord hates, [...] an abomination to him"... All except the first item seem an excellent list of things to avoid. But: "haughty eyes"? Again, surely some long-lost cultural connotation here; this seems simply nonsense to me.

haughty means proud, stuck up ... So it sounds like its advice not to be proud and look down on people.  Maybe.

Quote5) Prostitutes must have been cheap in ancient Jerusalem... Or maybe bread was expensive?

Or I think its more likely that he's exaggerating for effect.

Adultery is a real concern here isn't it.

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 25, 2017, 08:11AMProverbs 7 text

...

 - Don't do this - religious judgment will go against you

You've mentioned "religious judgement" as the consequence of foolishness a few times, but I haven't seen any consequences that are particularly religious.  Am I overlooking things that are obvious to you?

I was thinking that the lessons and consequences that are mentioned are taken from experiences and events around us, normal things of their life, rather than theological revelations or religious insites.  This would indicate for me that its useful and appropriate for believers to base their wisdom on how the world works as well as on theological considerations.

QuoteQuestions and Observations

1) The author is really hammering home the desirability of not sexually straying, isn't he? Another chapter devoted to the topic. And it's framed in terms of avoiding the allures of the woman. I suppose the book so far is clearly intended for a male audience, but it grates a bit to have the gender balance cast in this way, as if women spend their time trying to tempt men with men trying to resist. Way over-simplified.

Its probably how things worked in their society.  Even in our society I think the usual SOP is for the girls to try and attract the guys rather than vice versa.

Quote2) And if the author was as contended the much-married, much-concubined, and much-adulterated Solomon, then these words ring very hollow indeed...

In which case he could speak from much experience.  Don't make the same mistakes as I did.

And I'm not going to be dogmatic that all of the proverbs were written by Solomon actually.  They could have been the collected by him, or even the sort of things that he said and still be called proverbs of Solomon.

Quote3) Given the huge emphasis so far placed on the subject, adultery must have been very common in this society.

I'm not sure that follows.  Adultery is common enough in our society and its not criticised much.  In fact is criticism of sexual freedom that is criticised - at least in the media.

So I think the emphasis indicates their view of the seriousness of adultery rather than its commonality, although it may have been a combination

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 25, 2017, 02:45PMYou've mentioned "religious judgement" as the consequence of foolishness a few times, but I haven't seen any consequences that are particularly religious.  Am I overlooking things that are obvious to you?

I'm using it to refer to the usual idea that Yahweh will judge everyone at a later time of his convenience.

I understand now

Proverbs 8 text

Highlights

 - Wisdom and Prudence

Summary

 - Wisdom calls out to the simple boys and urges them to learn prudence
 - Prudence is Wisdom's BFF, and they give honour and wealth to those that follow her
 - Wisdom was with the Lord at the creation and is his delight
 - Blessed is the one who finds Wisdom because they also find life and favour with the Lord

Questions and Observations

1) I'm not sure if it was Wisdom or prudence who was with the Lord at the creation.  Maybe both, because they hung out together.

Proverbs 9 text

Highlights

 - Wisdom and Folly

Summary

 - Wisdom calls out again to the simple people, offering them shelter and food
 - Don't waste your time offering wisdom to those that are not interested in it
 - Those that are interested will learn from it
 - Be religious
 - Wisdom has another acquaintance, Folly. Folly is uncouth and gives bad counsel.

Questions and Observations

1) "Whoever corrects a scoffer gets himself abuse,
    and he who reproves a wicked man incurs injury.
Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you;
    reprove a wise man, and he will love you."
These words ring very true in today's fraught political climate. So many are so interested in shouting down others. So few are interested in talking and listening. There are those even on TTF who are scoffers. Happily this thread is largely scoff-free.
2) From my perspective, a shame that there's that straightforward injunction to be religious in the middle, but I suppose that ought to be expected...
3) We're building up a regular cast of metaphorical females here... Wisdom, Prudence, Wisdom's young women, and now Folly. Almost sounds like the basis for a pantheon.
4) Wisdom has "her young women". So I suppose that we should think of her as the older leader of a household.

Proverbs 10 text

Highlights

 - Some pithy proverbs

Summary

 - The Proverbs of Solomon
   - be wise, be good, don't be lazy, don't be foolish 
   - The wise promote peace, love ends strife, wealth protects your interests
   - the righteous will live long and prosper and be satisfied, the wicked won't
   - the words of righteous people cause wisdom and goodness to thrive, the words of the wicked don't

Questions and Observations

1) We now move from sermons to short, even pithy proverbs
2) its not as easy to see themes to note, so I've just higlighted a few proverbs

Proverbs 11 text

Highlights

 - More pithy proverbs.

Summary

- God hates it when people try to scam others with fake weights and balances - just don't do it.
- Pride has wholly negative effects, but humble people have wisdom.
- Upright people are saved by their integrity, but crooked and devious people ruin themselves.
- Riches can't save you; only your good qualities can lead you to salvation, keep you in bliss after death.
- The righteous benefit the places where the live, but naturally, the wicked really don't—people are glad when they get their just deserts.
- Gossip and belittling others is for fools—but avoiding these things and seeking wise counsel is for righteous and right-minded people.
- Gracious women receive honor, but women who lack virtue find shame, etc. - a beautiful woman without good sense is like "a gold ring in a pig's snout."
- wanting good produces good
- Giving freely doesn't necessarily cause you to become poor - and being a miser won't save you from ruin. So, generosity is a good thing.
- the generous grow richer and the miser poorer
- seek good instead of favour - since good leads to favor. seeking favour leads to misfortune.
- putting confidence in riches alone leads to destruction.
- if you trouble your household you just inherit "wind."
- righteousness is life and wickedness gets its own reward.

Questions and Observations

1) the good qualities of righteous people save them, the bad qualities of wicked people lead to their own destruction.
2) The proverbs contrast the righteous and unrighteous, wise and foolish, kind and cruel: things work out for the first category and not for the latter.
3) Did the writer of Proverbs read Job.  Are they consistent or reconcilable?

Proverbs 12 text

Highlights

 - More proverbs

Summary

 - This chapter continues praising righteousness and condemning wickedness.
 - The wise and righteous don't mind and actually benefit from being rebuked, but the wicked don't—for one thing.
 - This chapter continues to recapitulate earlier points—being good pays, and being bad doesn't.
 - good wives are great, bad wives are not; wicked speech is bad, good speech is great; good sense is great, bad sense is bad.
 - It's better to be lowly and have a servant, than to pretend to be great and go hungry.
 - The righteous are kind to animals, the wicked are cruel
 - hard work is rewarded,
 - Fools get hung up on insults, and only stick with whatever they want to do.
 - Repeating the same important points again, the author says that the wise speak words of healing, whereas the wicked and liars cause destruction and disruption. Fools can't help broadcasting their folly to others.
 - Laziness, anxiety, and bad advice come in for the author's disapproval, and he or she again reiterates the point that righteousness leads to more life—there is no death in it.

Questions and Observations

1) The good prosper and the wicked and foolish don't

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 26, 2017, 04:06PMProverbs 10 text

A couple that jump out at me:

10: Whoever winks the eye causes trouble,
    and a babbling fool will come to ruin.

Again with the winking. Must have meant something important...

23: Doing wrong is like a joke to a fool,
    but wisdom is pleasure to a man of understanding.

Deeply relevant to today's social media and beyond political battles. Richard Spencer, 'alt-right'/neo-Nazi person of prominence, referred to an anti-Jewish march that he was organising as a "joke" a couple of weeks ago when quoted in a newspaper article. Nobody's laughing.

Then, I think you've got a chapter out in your links with the other two posts. Corrected below:
Quote from: drizabone on Jan 26, 2017, 04:25PMProverbs 11 text

3) Did the writer of Proverbs read Job.  Are they consistent or reconcilable?

Can't see any immediate inconsistency... What have you spotted?

Corrected:
Quote from: drizabone on Jan 26, 2017, 08:11PMProverbs 12 text

Proverbs 13 text

Highlights

 - More pithy saws

Summary

 - Good things: Listening to criticism, Cautious speech, Hating lies, Modesty, Listening to wise people, Leaving an inheritance, Not oppressing the poor.
 - Bad things: Violence, Hard work, Religious sin, Overdependence on wealth, Rapid accrual of wealth, Treachery, Acting in ignorance, Not disciplining children.

Questions and Observations

1) Most seem very sensible.

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 27, 2017, 05:38AM
Can't see any immediate inconsistency... What have you spotted?

The proverbs mostly say that the wise/righteous will prosper and the wicked/foolish will suffer.  Job was an exception to that. 

I rationalise that by thinking that the Proverbs describes an idealised world.  Ecclesiastes (the next book) is much more realistic.

Proverbs 14 text

Highlights

 - more proverbs and observations

Summary

 - Folly can tear down what wisdom builds
 - The righteous person follows the Lord
 - Folly and wickedness is (self) destructive, self-pertpetuating, self-deceptive, stubborn, credulous, reckless, unpopular, quick tempered and 
 - Wisdom is not
 - the wicked and the righteous are both filled with the fruit of their ways
 - the fear of the Lord is the fountain of life
 - Good leaders are important

Questions and Observations

1) To the writer (and I guess that means that contemprorary understanding) the heart is not just the source of emotions: it is also associated with the mind and the will, (ie with thinking and decision making) and also with decision making, understanding, obedience, memory, plotting, judging and understanding.
2) the chapter covers community too: neighbours, kings, nation

Proverbs 15 text

Highlights

 - More proverbs

Summary

 - Speaking gently helps calm the wrath of other people, and if your tongue is gentle, it's "a tree of life."
 - God watches over everything, says the author, measuring it all up.
 - Fools don't listen to their parents, and end up having money problems. Their sacrifices don't please God - but the prayers of the righteous do.
 - rebukes are good for you. Deal with it, says the author.
 - God can see into all human hearts, in addition to the underworld.
 - Gladness of heart is good, sadness is bad.
 - Cheerfulness is like a continual feast - you create your own enjoyment.
 - It's better not to have too much and still fear God than to be overloaded with treasure and trouble.  - Similarly it's better to have love and eat a simple meal of vegetables than to eat a meaty feast while in a mood of hatred.
 - Again, the writer attacks familiar targets: a quick temper, laziness, evil plans, foolish children, greed, a lack of wise advisors. Conversely, he-she praises their opposites.
 - the author again notes how righteousness and wisdom lead upward away from Sheol (the underworld).
Righteous people think before they speak, while the wicked just blabber out evil things.
 - The "light of the eyes" refreshes the heart, and good news brings life back to the body.
 - listen to instruction and fearing God is the beginning of wisdom.


Questions and Observations

1) Repetition is good for the soul

Proverbs 16 text

Highlights

 - "Man Proposes, God Disposes"
 - Grey hair is great

Summary

 - Mortals can devise whatever plans they want, but God is the one who determines what happens in the end.
 - some of the ways in which God rules over humans - knowing all their innermost thoughts and desires, and creating everything for a purpose.
 - pride and the unwillingness to trust in God is bad, but loyalty and faithfulness are good.
 - mortals make plans, but God is the one who actually directs their steps.
 - kings should do what is right because God established the throne (talking about Israel here), God appreciates fairness in judgment.
 - avoid their wrath, but bask in the glow of a cheerful, happy king's mood.
 - "Pride comes before the fall".
 - it's better to be poor and not proud, than proud and not poor.
 - If you speak pleasantly, people will be more persuaded - and persuasiveness is something the wise possess. Such pleasant words are sweet, like honey.
 - In contrast, the words of scoundrels set fire to things.
 - Having an appetite or being hungry spurs you to work harder.
 - (in line with the Proverbs' love for all things elderly) grey hair indicates special life wisdom.
 - life is like casting lots, but the decision on where they actually fall lies in God's hands.

Questions and Observations

1)

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 27, 2017, 12:47PMThe proverbs mostly say that the wise/righteous will prosper and the wicked/foolish will suffer.  Job was an exception to that. 
Yes... Well noted.

This is the kind of thing where I wonder how much my attitudes have been shaped by my upbringing. As I've said before, there was a period of about half a decade around my 10th birthday where I attended Sunday school, but apart from that there was no determined attempt to inculcate Christianity into me. But Christian ideas were not absent - I attended a Church of England primary school, where (with eyes rolling at having to do it) we sang a hymn in assembly every morning. My father was raised Catholic (thoroughly lapsed), and my mother's foray into Evangelicalism was what saw me at Sunday school for those years - and three years of "Religious Studies" at school (age 11-13) was taught by a man who (unacceptably, to my mind) saw it as a state-sponsored platform to proselytise to impressionable minds from. The faith that I don't have is definitely Christianity rather than say Islam...

What sparks this rumination is the realisation that precepts such as 'the wise will prosper' run deep in me. Where did I originally get that from? Perhaps Christianity. Perhaps it is a necessary intellectual self-defense mechanism to take in a world where cheats and liars so often pull ahead, something rarely better illustrated than in current political events. But the feeling that if one just stands up for what is known to be true, then eventually those that are opposing it with falsehoods will fall away in shame at their actions, I have that. And of the influences that have moulded me, that conviction matches well with convictions found here in Proverbs.

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 27, 2017, 12:47PMI rationalise that by thinking that the Proverbs describes an idealised world.  Ecclesiastes (the next book) is much more realistic.
I'm looking forward to it. By the by, when we complete this book, that will mark something of a personal milestone - when I tried to read the whole Christian Bible in book order as a child, as I recall I gave up in Proverbs. So from here on out is in some sense new territory to me. Thank you for walking all this way with me.

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 27, 2017, 01:26PMProverbs 14 text

1) To the writer (and I guess that means that contemprorary understanding) the heart is not just the source of emotions: it is also associated with the mind and the will, (ie with thinking and decision making) and also with decision making, understanding, obedience, memory, plotting, judging and understanding.

This is an idea put forward by Aristotle (though I suspect he simply wrote it down rather than conceived it), that survived into much more modern times - not until the advent of modern neuroscience did it become clear quite how different the function of the brain is from all other organs.

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 29, 2017, 12:31AMProverbs 15 text

 - Speaking gently helps calm the wrath of other people, and if your tongue is gentle, it's "a tree of life."
Very true. We see this over and over here, although online words tend to the combustible more than words in person. Reminds me of the more modern proverb: "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 29, 2017, 12:31AM - rebukes are good for you. Deal with it, says the author.
Humility is a big theme here.

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 29, 2017, 12:31AM - Cheerfulness is like a continual feast - you create your own enjoyment.
Absolutely. Would I be right in thinking that you tend to exemplify this one? Your persistent good nature certainly gives that impression.

Proverbs 17 text

Highlights

 - More proverbs

Summary

 - Fancy things are little comfort in a time of discord
 - Value more greatly those that are wise than foolish family
 - It is evil to amplify evil
 - Do not rejoice in the misfortunes of others
 - Children are good, m'kay?
 - Foolish things said well are still foolish (so much modern relevance...)
 - Wise people heed rebukes, but fools let them wash over them (ditto)
 - Stirring up trouble for the sake of it is evil
 - Strife breeds more strife
 - True friendship stands there even in tough times

Questions and Observations

1) Maintaining a pretty high standard here.

Proverbs 18 text

Highlights

 - Further proverbs

Summary

 - Solitude can be overdone
 - It is foolish to give your opinion without seeking understanding (oh so relevant! How many times have we seen posters here and elsewhere jump in to say something contentious, then retreat from debate with defensiveness about "only giving my opinion"?)
 - Evil and bad feelings are companions
 - Honour accordingly good and bad in others
 - Talk unfoolishly
 - Be conscientious
 - Those who are rich feel emboldened by their wealth
 - Pride comes before a fall
 - Physical illness is bearable, but crushing of the spirits less so
 - It is wise to seek knowledge
 - Offer gifts to those that you approach
 - Defer judgment on an issue until you have heard all sides
 - Offending those close to you can result in long-lasting condemnation
 - Wifing is good, m'kay?
 - Cultivate close friends, not many friends (hello Facebook...)

Questions and Observations

1) Still quite impressed here. If I lived a few hundred years ago, when "because the Bible says so" was a killer line of argument, I would definitely devote some time to memorising various of these in order to encourage others to behave better.

Proverbs 19 text

Highlights

 - Even more proverbs

Summary

 - Better to be poor and of integrity than crooked
 - "More haste less speed"
 - Those who fail as the result of their foolishness will often blame external factors
 - People flatter the wealthy
 - Lie-tellers will lose out
 - Take care of your moral well-being
 - People have a natural station in life
 - Let your anger have a long fuse, and be quick to forgive
 - The displeasure of the powerful is painful, while their pleasure is often passing
 - Domestic quibbling saps the spirits
 - Be thankful for a good wife
 - Sloth begets more sloth
 - Donating to the poor will be rewarded by Yahweh later
 - Discipline your children
 - Those who cannot control their anger will not learn to do so
 - Be humble in the pursuit of knowledge
 - Make plans, but you may not be able to execute them (Hah! Thinking of Oxford City Council and their planning department here, who have spent the last 12 months preventing us building something that they initially said that we could...)
 - Loyalty is highly prized
 - Honour parents
 - Always keep your ears open for new knowledge

Questions and Observations

1) There's a bit of a contradiction between some of the saws in this chapter. It opens with "Better is a poor person who walks in his integrity than one who is crooked in speech and is a fool", but then we get "All a poor man's brothers hate him; how much more do his friends go far from him! He pursues them with words, but does not have them." The sentiment of the second seems to imply that maybe a bit of crooked speech in order not to be poor wouldn't be the worst thing...
2) Verses 5 and 9 are pretty much identical.
3) "It is not fitting for a fool to live in luxury,
    much less for a slave to rule over princes."
I do not go for this one, which I've freely translated as "People have a natural station in life" above.
4) "Discipline your son, for there is hope;
    do not set your heart on putting him to death."
This is a little obscure to me. Does it mean to discipline them now, so that they do not go further astray later?
5) "Strike a scoffer, and the simple will learn prudence;
    reprove a man of understanding, and he will gain knowledge."
This is a bit brutal, but I take the meaning. If we take a "scoffer" to be someone mocking a good idea without bothering to understand it, then slapping them down will make other watching fools less likely to do the same in future. We can make it less brutal by taking it metaphorically. The second half is straightforward.

Quote from: MoominDave on Feb 01, 2017, 06:38AMProverbs 19 text

...

1) There's a bit of a contradiction between some of the saws in this chapter. It opens with "Better is a poor person who walks in his integrity than one who is crooked in speech and is a fool", but then we get "All a poor man's brothers hate him; how much more do his friends go far from him! He pursues them with words, but does not have them." The sentiment of the second seems to imply that maybe a bit of crooked speech in order not to be poor wouldn't be the worst thing...

there is a tranlators note for this verse "The meaning of the Hebrew for this sentence is uncertain"

So I looked at the NIV's translation to see what they made of it.  The NIV tries to make things easier for the average reader.  It has:

The poor are shunned by all their relatives—
    how much more do their friends avoid them!
Though the poor pursue them with pleading,
    they are nowhere to be found.

That translation suggests that it is the friends can't be found rather than the right words.  I think this translation that makes a contrast between the friends that hang around a generous person fits in with the flow of the text.

Quote2) Verses 5 and 9 are pretty much identical.
3) "It is not fitting for a fool to live in luxury,
    much less for a slave to rule over princes."
I do not go for this one, which I've freely translated as "People have a natural station in life" above.

Joseph in Egypt would be an obvious counter example to the second point in this verse if you took it alone.

I would tend to see the second half of the verse as meant to be another perspective on the idea presented in the first half, so the slave would be a slave because he was a fool.  That station would change if he followed wisdom - and marrying a good wife would probably help too, if he could find one.

Quote4) "Discipline your son, for there is hope;
    do not set your heart on putting him to death."
This is a little obscure to me. Does it mean to discipline them now, so that they do not go further astray later?

These are other proverbs that say a father should discipline his son to teach him wisdom, and that the rejection of wisdom leads to death.  So I think its reasonable to fill out the verse like this:

  Discipline your son, for there is hope that he will learn wisdom
  if you don't, it will lead to his death.
 
That's my guess anyway.

Quote5) "Strike a scoffer, and the simple will learn prudence;
    reprove a man of understanding, and he will gain knowledge."
This is a bit brutal, but I take the meaning. If we take a "scoffer" to be someone mocking a good idea without bothering to understand it, then slapping them down will make other watching fools less likely to do the same in future. We can make it less brutal by taking it metaphorically. The second half is straightforward.

This seems similar to my understanding of the verse in the previous point.

A bit brutal?  Remember they were still barbaric despite their wisdom.  Physical punishment was the norm back then.

Proverbs 20 text

Highlights

 - Proverbs

Summary

 - Drunkenness is risky behaviour
 - Don't provoke kings
 - Fools love to quarrel
 - Prepare for the future
 - It takes wisdom to divine someone's deep feelings
 - People often think themselves better than they are
 - Use good measuring weights
 - You are never too young to accrue reputation, good or bad
 - Be industrious; don't rest on your laurels
 - Knowledge is more precious than gemstones
 - Winning by deceit tastes bad in time
 - Seek consensus in your difficult acts
 - Don't trust those that betray others
 - Do not curse your parents
 - Don't give evil for evil; wait for Yahweh to sort it out
 - Don't be too quick to denote a trust as sacred
 - A wise king destroys wicked people
 - When young take pride in your strength; when old in your wisdom

Questions and Observations

1) It's never too early to take pride in your wisdom.

Proverbs 21 text

Highlights

 - more proverbs

Summary

 - the king's heart is like a stream that God turns where he will, to provide refreshment to whomever God wishes.
 - God judges all hearts, regardless of what people think about themselves, and he prefers righteousness even above sacrifice.
 - don't be prideful, do be diligent and hard-working, don't be a greedy liar, the wicked will be destroyed, contentious wives are bad, don't be a scoffer, give to poor, bribes are helpful, etc., etc.
 - attacks pleasure-seeking: being a fan of wine and oil doesn't lead to success.
 - Brains are better than brawn: a single wise man is able to bring down a whole stronghold.
 - no human wisdom or understanding can outwit God, and that, prepare as humans may for any sort of battle or undertaking, victory lies in God's hand.


Questions and Observations

1) the author likes (good) kings - I expect that this can be generalised to good goervernments.
2) the author likes the "don't be prideful theme"

Proverbs 22 text

Highlights

 - more proverbs
 - 30 wise sayings

Summary

 - a good name is better than riches,
 - God creates both the rich and the poor,
 - humility is pretty great,
 - discipline your kids.
 - the clever take refuge where appropriate, but the simple charge onwards.
 - and one last shot at loose women and lazy people who complain that they'll get killed by lions if they go outside.
 - beat the folly out of your kids with the "rod of discipline," and treat the poor with kindness.

30 Sayings of the Wise
 - hear and remember the words of the wise
 - don't exploit the poor: God will take up their case
 - don't make bad friends so you aren't influenced by them
 - be careful about guaranteeing others depbts
 - don't move ancient boundary stones
 - skilled workers get to work for kings and not just normal people

Questions and Observations

1) did you notice the value placed on teaching the kids the rights way to live.  Its even more important than not beating them.
2) And we move into a new part of Proverbs titled "30 Sayings of Wise Men".  I'm not sure why they started their sayings in the middle of a chapter.

Proverbs 23 text

Highlights

 - The Wise continue to say things

Summary

 - When you are in company that has power over you, act moderately
 - Don't get focussed on acquiring wealth
 - Do not accept favours from those that will hold them over you
 - Don't waste your breath arguing with fools
 - Be open to learning
 - Discipline your child with physical force to save them from badness
 - Take joy in the showing of wisdom by others
 - Do not envy sinners; they may appear in front for now, but it is transitory
 - Avoid those that indulge their appetites
 - Act well by your parents
 - Do not have sexy times with prostitutes, and do not engage in adultery
 - Avoid wine!

Questions and Observations

1) "Do not move an ancient landmark
    or enter the fields of the fatherless,
    for their Redeemer is strong;
    he will plead their cause against you."
This makes me wonder who the "fatherless" are. I see that the conventional explication is that it is a literally meant word, rather than referring to some tribal group, and that the "redeemer" is the usual Yahweh. I thought it might be another multiple gods reference.
2) Corporal punishment for children is very much out of fashion these days. I honestly don't know quite where I stand on whether it should be permitted. On the one hand, physical force is a barbarous way to assert a lesson; on the other children are often barbarous things. On the one hand, blanket banning it prevents many applications of it where it could do good; on the other, when it was permitted, far too many parents (and schoolteachers too in the days of the cane) used the licence to assault children. I think on balance probably safer not to allow it - too many people showed themselves unworthy of the trust. But it isn't one of the more certain convictions in my head.
3) The final admonition is quite anti-wine. Which is strange, because it is relatively approved of in moderation elsewhere in the bible.

Proverbs 24 text

Highlights

 - Wise sayings still

Summary

 - Don't envy evil people - it will trip them up in time
 - Building yourself on wisdom makes for a sure foundation
 - Those who plan evil will be scorned by others
 - Be courageous
 - Wisdom is like honey for the soul
 - Do not entrap the righteous
 - Do not be glad when your enemy stumbles
 - Do not worry about evil people; they will be gone in time (*)
 - Respect those who have power over you (**)
 - Be an honest judge
 - First things first
 - Do not perjure against someone, even if provoked
 - Be industrious, lest your fortunes wane

Questions and Observations

1) (*) So perhaps we should just turn the news off these days?
2) (**) But what if these people are evil?
3) The next section "More Sayings of the Wise" begins mid-chapter again here. But it only lasts to the end of the chapter.

Quote from: MoominDave on Feb 03, 2017, 04:50AMProverbs 23 text

...

Questions and Observations

1) "Do not move an ancient landmark
    or enter the fields of the fatherless,
    for their Redeemer is strong;
    he will plead their cause against you."
This makes me wonder who the "fatherless" are. I see that the conventional explication is that it is a literally meant word, rather than referring to some tribal group, and that the "redeemer" is the usual Yahweh. I thought it might be another multiple gods reference.

The literal understanding seems most likely to me too and care for those without fathers has been a concern of Yahweh's since the law was given.

Quote2) Corporal punishment for children is very much out of fashion these days. I honestly don't know quite where I stand on whether it should be permitted. On the one hand, physical force is a barbarous way to assert a lesson; on the other children are often barbarous things. On the one hand, blanket banning it prevents many applications of it where it could do good; on the other, when it was permitted, far too many parents (and schoolteachers too in the days of the cane) used the licence to assault children. I think on balance probably safer not to allow it - too many people showed themselves unworthy of the trust. But it isn't one of the more certain convictions in my head.

Cultural standards for corporal punishment has changed hasn't it.  It works in lots of cases but as you say it can be abused.  Its one of the feedback/teaching strategies used in nature and I guess honed for effeciency and effectiveness by evolution, yes?: "ouch that hurts, I'd better not do that again"

Quote3) The final admonition is quite anti-wine. Which is strange, because it is relatively approved of in moderation elsewhere in the bible.

The advice is to those who have read eyes, who have tarried overlong with wine and who have mixed their wine (possibly with stonger stuff), so it isn't condeming wine in general and is consistent with the wine in moderation is good standard.

Quote from: MoominDave on Feb 03, 2017, 05:09AMProverbs 24 text

[...

Questions and Observations

1) (*) So perhaps we should just turn the news off these days?

I think you need to know whay they're doing, but just won't be anxious or envy them

Quote2) (**) But what if these people are evil?

That one is difficult to answer.

Theoretically IMO God is in charge, so the evil rulers have been put there by God, so we should respect them.  God does use evil people to acheive his ends.  But on the other hand evil should be opposed but how to do that and still respect them?

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was one man that went through this dilemma with Hitler.

NB I don't agree with everything Bonhoeffer wrote.

Proverbs 25 text

Highlights

 - More Proverbs of Solomon

Summary

 - The sayings kick off with a description of the way kings are supposed to rule. God hides things, but kings are meant to ferret them out—reveal rather than conceal.
 - Kings have deep and unsearchable minds, and you'd best avoid getting demoted by them or by other nobles.
 - In the same way someone removes dross from silver to make a vessel, the king should remove wickedness from his court.
 - if you see your neighbor doing something wrong, don't immediately blab about it to the authorities. Bring it up with your neighbor privately and see if you can work something out.
 - patience can be persuasive
 - don't eat too much of a good thing
 - don't wear out your welcome at a neighbours, or lie about them
 - don't trust treacherous men
 - do cheer up sad people
 - be nice to your enemies, it will make him feel bad and the Lord will reward you
 - its better to live lowly than have a quarrelsome wife
 - good news is good
 - good people giving in to bad people is not

Questions and Observations

1) This next chapter begins with a new batch of proverbs, from King Solomon. Proverbs claims they were recorded from old records of Solomon's sayings by officials in King Hezekiah's court.

Quote from: drizabone on Feb 03, 2017, 04:51PMI think you need to know whay they're doing, but just won't be anxious or envy them
Yes, this seems the most sensible way to proceed to me too. Be aware, but don't be obsessed.

Quote from: drizabone on Feb 03, 2017, 04:51PMThat one is difficult to answer.

Theoretically IMO God is in charge, so the evil rulers have been put there by God, so we should respect them.  God does use evil people to acheive his ends.  But on the other hand evil should be opposed but how to do that and still respect them?
The basic conflict here is that the instructions to keep your head down around powerful people seems to come from a place of pragmatism, while the instructions about evil come from a place of morality.

Given the authoritarian leaders that populations are more and more putting in charge these days, I hope that we won't find ourselves needing to contemplate this interface any more closely than we already do, which is quite close enough to destroy comfort.

Quote from: drizabone on Feb 03, 2017, 04:51PMDietrich Bonhoeffer was one man that went through this dilemma with Hitler.

NB I don't agree with everything Bonhoeffer wrote.

I don't know Bonhoeffer's writings at all. Could you precis?

Quote from: drizabone on Feb 03, 2017, 08:59PMProverbs 25 text

This next chapter begins with a new batch of proverbs, from King Solomon. Proverbs claims they were recorded from old records of Solomon's sayings by officials in King Hezekiah's court.

Quick reminder for general benefit: King Hezekiah of Judah we have had described to us as one of the kings that the writers of Kings and Chronicles approved of, religiously, being devout. He reigned in Judah shortly after the Assyrian exile of Israel, around 700 BC, some 300 years after the dates given for Solomon.

Proverbs 26 text

Highlights

 - Solomon continues, on fools and sluggards

Summary

 - Honouring a fool seems strange
 - An undeserved curse may be disregarded
 - Don't descend to the level of a fool
 - Don't trust fools with your messages
 - Fools don't correct their errors
 - It is not good to think yourself wise
 - Lazy people are lazy
 - It is especially evil to deceive and then claim that you were joking
 - Gossip fuels quarrelling
 - Quarrelling fuels strife
 - Persuasive talking of evil is still evil
 - Beware liars and flatterers

Questions and Observations

1) Does Christianity believe in cursing? (cf. v2)
2) "As the dog returneth to his vomit, so the fool returns to his folly" - I have run across this one before. Can think of plenty that this applies to - indeed, everyone falls foul of it at least from time to time.
3) v12 prefigures the work of Dunning and Kruger by some years...
4) Regarding vv18-19
 "Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death
    is the man who deceives his neighbor
    and says, “I am only joking!”"
This is especially apt. I mentioned in a recent post that Richard Spencer, modern-day American Nazi, referred to an anti-Jewish march he was organising as "only a joke". Similarly, Milo Yiannopoulous, his fellow traveller on the "alt-right", editor at Breitbart news, not long ago sought to worm out from under interview questioning about the morality of what he was writing with the line that "it's satire". This is highly and dangerously disingenuous - despite each assertion being very obviously not true (I mean, who's laughing...), one has to stop and think to dispose of the assertion, because it is the nature of jokes that they are expected to turn some orthodoxy upside down, and so these evil people escape from the question at hand. But they do so in the name of hate, not of humour, and hiding behind a claim of the latter shows that they know exactly what they are doing. I find myself recently conceiving an especial disdain for people who seek to hide their evilness in this way. There are a lot of real gems in this book - I think it is the most worthwhile book in the Bible that we have been through so far.

Quote from: MoominDave on Feb 04, 2017, 06:37AM

The basic conflict here is that the instructions to keep your head down around powerful people seems to come from a place of pragmatism, while the instructions about evil come from a place of morality.


I perceive that as a huge conflict today, that seems to go unnoticed by the more conservative Christians.

Many of them will argue for an absolute morality, and in fact assert that only through belief in a Deity can we have any moral system that doesn't depend on utility or pragmatism. 

Yet in any specific case (torture, death penalty, choice of elected official) the decision seems to always ignore any absolute right or wrong and dive immediately to situational ethics and pragmatism.  We saw that very quickly in the old torture debate we had here. 

Quote from: MoominDave on Feb 04, 2017, 07:02AMProverbs 26 text

...

1) Does Christianity believe in cursing? (cf. v2)

Do we believe in it? It exists so I guess we do.

But its probably not appropriate, but that depends on what you're saying and where.

Quote3) v12 prefigures the work of Dunning and Kruger by some years...

You mean like the way I hear a good muso play some hadr music but makes it sound easy, so I think that I can play it, but can't.

QuoteThere are a lot of real gems in this book - I think it is the most worthwhile book in the Bible that we have been through so far.

Interesting. I wouldn't have predicted that.

Quote from: timothy42b on Feb 04, 2017, 11:39AMI perceive that as a huge conflict today, that seems to go unnoticed by the more conservative Christians.

Many of them will argue for an absolute morality, and in fact assert that only through belief in a Deity can we have any moral system that doesn't depend on utility or pragmatism. 

Yet in any specific case (torture, death penalty, choice of elected official) the decision seems to always ignore any absolute right or wrong and dive immediately to situational ethics and pragmatism.  We saw that very quickly in the old torture debate we had here. 

I didn't follow those debates so I'm not commenting on those, but its interesting that many of the Proverbs use situational ethics, and pragmatism, but with an understanding that includes God as well. So situational ethics and pragmatism don't necessarily exclude consideration of God.

Quote from: drizabone on Feb 04, 2017, 12:19PMDo we believe in it? It exists so I guess we do.
Hold on... Do you mean "cursing" as I understood it from the verse? I.e. "I put a curse on you", not "I curse at you"

If yes, I can't say that I've ever observed it to exist... Or can think of any mechanism by which it could work beyond psychological suggestion.

But then, cursing has never really struck me as a very likely component of the Christian religion. More of a Wiccan type thing...

Quote from: drizabone on Feb 04, 2017, 12:19PMInteresting. I wouldn't have predicted that.

There are a lot of excellent secular precepts here; one barely has to filter at all to sift religiosity out. For curiosity, what would you have predicted?

Quote from: MoominDave on Feb 04, 2017, 01:28PMHold on... Do you mean "cursing" as I understood it from the verse? I.e. "I put a curse on you", not "I curse at you"

If yes, I can't say that I've ever observed it to exist... Or can think of any mechanism by which it could work beyond psychological suggestion.

But then, cursing has never really struck me as a very likely component of the Christian religion. More of a Wiccan type thing...

Actually I wasn't sure what sort you meant. 

I don't know of any churches that teach that someone saying "You will have smelly socks for a year" or "May you play all you minor thirds sharp" would do anything except maybe introduce doubt in the cursee's mind.  So I would say that no we don't believe in curses with a coupe of caveats but there may be some misguided people or sects that do.

I don't think the proverbs reference to curse was of the "something bad is going to happen to you", because I don't think that people got to make those statements with authority**. I think it was just a general expression of annoyance, sort of like "Damn you!" with no expectation that it would have any effect.

** some people could say things like that if they had sufficient authority, eg the king could say that you were going to die in the morning, but not many. 

I also think there's a fair bit of generality in curse, so I might not be thinking the same thing as you.

QuoteThere are a lot of excellent secular precepts here; one barely has to filter at all to sift religiosity out. For curiosity, what would you have predicted?

I probably wouldn't have been rash enough to make a prediction.  I don't know you well enough or obviously or the bible.  As we were going through I had decided that you were preferring the narratives over the teaching and experience eg Psalms, and was speculated that you wouldn't like the wisdom literature or the prophets.  But we'll see. 

I was actually surprised that the proverbs rely so much on utility and pragmatism. I guess that's how wisdom must work.  Making decisions based on experience, and an understanding of how the world works.

Ref cursing - I think the reference is vague enough that we can almost read it how it suits. I was simply intrigued by how it most naturally read to me, and I wondered if I'd missed something. There are a lot of unexpected things lurking in the corners of Christianity.

Quote from: drizabone on Feb 05, 2017, 12:14AMI probably wouldn't have been rash enough to make a prediction.  I don't know you well enough or obviously or the bible.  As we were going through I had decided that you were preferring the narratives over the teaching and experience eg Psalms, and was speculated that you wouldn't like the wisdom literature or the prophets.  But we'll see. 

I was actually surprised that the proverbs rely so much on utility and pragmatism. I guess that's how wisdom must work.  Making decisions based on experience, and an understanding of how the world works.

My motive here is to establish from each bit that we examine what there is to learn. For narrative books, that's simple - they tell us a story that purports to be history, and we must make a judgment on how much of it is believable. To gloss it most simply, I've made the judgment that most historical things before the division of the kingdoms more or less cannot be trusted, and most things after more or less can. But it's a (fascinating) process of gradually increasing reliability that defies simple categorisation. We look at what's being related, we compare it to verified historical occurrences and artefacts, we ask ourselves whether it rings plausible or not, we ask ourselves if it violates what we understand of the physical world.

For wisdom books, things are a little different. They ask us to look inside, not outside. For me, not being a religious person, having reached that judgment after substantial earlier consideration that still seems sound to me today, I find that the injunctions contained therein divide sharply into two piles - one that can be read as-is by a secular voice, and one where the religiosity of the sentiment has to be accounted for. Although we have run across regular religious injunctions in the proverbs thus far, they have been in a small minority, much overbalanced by pragmatic observations that anyone can agree on the wisdom and desirability of. In contrast, the psalms contained almost nothing but content for the latter pile - at great length, in digressive poetry, and with a great deal of repetition. I did attempt as we went to recast psalms with secular morals, with partial success, but the attempt had something of forcedness about it, given how very straightforwardly devotional most of the psalms are. Many psalms, upon filtering to remove what are meaningless sentiments to non-religious people, simply collapse into emptiness. Still, it can be learned from such material what style of cues those that believe like to go for. But 150 of them, my goodness! My keenness is back again now (speaking of which, I'm going away for a few days tomorrow to Cornwall if I go a bit quiet in the next week).

Thanks, I understand you a little more. 

Incidentally you asked about Dietrich Bonhoeffer.  I don't know much about him, wikipedia probably covers that.

He was more a liberal theologian and German too, so maybe Tim knows more of him.

Bonhoeffer is a bit hard to categorize, but probably the best place to put him is the camp of Barthian or "neo-orthodox" theologians, who tried to retain many of the key points of historic orthodoxy while giving up some of them.  Neo-orthodoxy was quite in vogue during the 1930s through the 1950s, but its star has fallen quite a bit in theological circles in recent years. 

One thing that it was noted for was that many of them-- Bonhoeffer is a very good example of this-- were very anti-Nazi and were the main drivers behind the Barmen Declaration which emphatically said that the German church should not succumb to Nazism. Men like Bonhoeffer obviously were willing to lay down their lives for this belief.

This is in stark contrast to many of the genuine liberal theologians of Germany, some of whom were rather enthusiastic supporters of the Nazi regime and joined notable philosophers such as Heidegger, in giving a theological-philosophical rationale for Nazism and its so-called "German Christianity" which sought to strip any elements of the Christian faith that had Jewish roots.  In hindsight some theologians have argued that the rather dismissive approach to the Old Testament by the German liberal theologians may have made them susceptible to anti-Semitism.

Here's a good summary of Bonhoeffer's theology:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-32/bonhoeffers-costly-theology.html

Thanks John.

I think I showed how little I knew about him

Proverbs 27 text

Highlights

 - More from Solomon

Summary

 - The future is uncertain (to us, at least)
 - Self-praise is empty
 - The provocation of a fool is hard to bear
 - Jealousy is a very powerful emotion
 - Satiety jades the senses; hunger sharpens them
 - Pay attention to nearby needs
 - Cultivate those nearby to you; far away family can be of limited help
 - Make your parents proud
 - Don't be too simple to avoid danger
 - Don't get up early and shout!
 - Regular domestic arguing saps the spirits
 - One loses one's edge in solitude
 - Two constants - death and avarice
 - Fools cling stubbornly to their folly
 - Riches are transitory, so guard your means of sustenance well

Questions and Observations

1) The first one is interesting here. Does Christianity (or Judaism) hold that Yahweh knows the future in total detail?
2) v5 -
"Better is open rebuke
    than hidden love."
I don't think I quite understand what is trying to be said here. Is it specifically warning against covert romance or sex? Or is it rather telling you to declare when you support people?
3) v14 tells us that lie-ins are an eternal constant...
4) v20 reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_and_taxes_(idiom)