My observations of the book so far:
- Job and his friends view suffering as being a result of Gods judgements for sin and only that, and that God is very legalistic, so much so that if there is a suffering then you must have done something wrong.
- Jobs friends working from this assumption have decided that Job is at fault.
- Job seems to have this assumption too, but also is very sure that he is innocent. (This is illogical but Job is working at a feeling/gut level rather than an intellectual level. Its understandable given the suffering hes going through.)
- Job understands that God is all powerful and can do whatever he wants.
- Even if God thinks he has done something wrong, then his suffering is way out of proportion to any slight that Job might have caused.
- Initially Job mainly wants God to ignore him but he moves to wanting to call God to detail the charge against him so that he can justify himself
- Job wants this opportunity even though he doesnt think that he has a chance to defeat God.
- Job goes from mainly wanting God to ignore him, to wanting to trying to get God's attention so that he can argue his case, despite the danger. In the middle of this transition he seems to want both.
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ttf_drizabone
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Job 11 text
Highlights
- Zophar's accusation
Summary
- Zophar says to Job that God knows that you are a secret sinner so repent and all will be good
Questions and Observations
1) short and sweet
Highlights
- Zophar's accusation
Summary
- Zophar says to Job that God knows that you are a secret sinner so repent and all will be good
Questions and Observations
1) short and sweet
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Job 12 text
Job 13 text
Job 14 text
Highlights
- Job wants nothing to do with his friends
- he wants to speak to the Almighty, but sees no hope
Summary
12:2 - 13:12
- Job that he is wiser than his friends because he knows that sometimes the just can be afflicted and the wicked can be unpunished
- he puts words in his friends mouths to say that their thinking is as simple as animals
- he states that he has learned that God is not the calm governor of an ordered universe but an eccentric powerful deity that cannot be contained or tamed.
- Job wants to argue his case directly before God, so stop wasting his time with useless lies.
- They are false witnesses for God and what would good think of them lie-ing for him.
13:12 - 14:22
- Job wants to argue with God, but he first wants God to play fair by withdrawing his hand from Job and not scaring him
- Job calls on God to tell him what he has done wrong and to explain himself
- Job claims God is making much ado about nothing and punishing him for childish errors
- Job argues that human life is to insignificant to deserve the scrutiny from God that he is getting.
- a tree gets an afterlife but humans get nothing (he almost thinks about an afterlife though)
- if only death was a place that God would bring man back, having stopped searching for the sins they have committed and cover his iniquity
- but no. Death is final.
Humans have no hope but to be overpowered by God
Questions and Observations
1) 13:1-12 states that any theology that doesn't have room for righteous people that suffer is false
2) Job's legalistic theology is depressing isn't it. He starts thinking about being able to prove his innocence but ends up feeling hopeless against the power of God.
Job 13 text
Job 14 text
Highlights
- Job wants nothing to do with his friends
- he wants to speak to the Almighty, but sees no hope
Summary
12:2 - 13:12
- Job that he is wiser than his friends because he knows that sometimes the just can be afflicted and the wicked can be unpunished
- he puts words in his friends mouths to say that their thinking is as simple as animals
- he states that he has learned that God is not the calm governor of an ordered universe but an eccentric powerful deity that cannot be contained or tamed.
- Job wants to argue his case directly before God, so stop wasting his time with useless lies.
- They are false witnesses for God and what would good think of them lie-ing for him.
13:12 - 14:22
- Job wants to argue with God, but he first wants God to play fair by withdrawing his hand from Job and not scaring him
- Job calls on God to tell him what he has done wrong and to explain himself
- Job claims God is making much ado about nothing and punishing him for childish errors
- Job argues that human life is to insignificant to deserve the scrutiny from God that he is getting.
- a tree gets an afterlife but humans get nothing (he almost thinks about an afterlife though)
- if only death was a place that God would bring man back, having stopped searching for the sins they have committed and cover his iniquity
- but no. Death is final.
Humans have no hope but to be overpowered by GodQuestions and Observations
1) 13:1-12 states that any theology that doesn't have room for righteous people that suffer is false
2) Job's legalistic theology is depressing isn't it. He starts thinking about being able to prove his innocence but ends up feeling hopeless against the power of God.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Nov 02, 2016, 12:59AMJob 11 text
- Zophar's accusation
Zophar is a bit tetchy with Job's failure to come round to their point of view:
"Should a multitude of words go unanswered,
and a man full of talk be judged right?
Should your babble silence men,
and when you mock, shall no one shame you?"
These are strong words, squarely aimed at making Job feel bad about what he is saying.
The reference to "the heights of heaven" and then "Deeper than Sheol" is interesting, perhaps showing some consciousness even at this date of the later well-known association between heaven as being in the sky and hell being underground.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 02, 2016, 01:45AMJob 12 text
Job 13 text
Job 14 text
The opening verse of chapter 14 reminds me strongly of one of the more exquisitely melancholy pieces of music out there, the anthem Man that is born of a woman, from Henry Purcell's Funeral Music for Queen Mary, the words for which are taken from the burial service from the 1662 Anglican Book of Common Prayer. It seems clear to me that this section of the service is a rewrite of the opening of this chapter. Compare:
Job 14:1-2, ESV:
Man who is born of a woman
is few of days and full of trouble.
He comes out like a flower and withers;
he flees like a shadow and continues not.
Book of Common Prayer:
Man that is born of a woman hath but a short time to live, and is full of misery. He cometh up, and is cut down, like a flower; he fleeth as it were a shadow, and never continueth in one stay.
We see much of the differing phrasing when we consider the Bible translation that the Book of Common Prayer authors would have considered as standard - the iconic King James Version, published in the same century. This has:
Job 14:1-2, KJV:
Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.
He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
Anyhow - lovely music, very sad and contemplative, most apt for both Job's mood here and the funeral of a young and beloved queen. The whole funeral music sequence is a favourite piece of mine. A couple of trombones even get to play important parts in it, usually.
Purcell himself lived not long after, dying that same year in his mid-30s after apparently being locked out by his wife when returning drunk in cold weather...
- Zophar's accusation
Zophar is a bit tetchy with Job's failure to come round to their point of view:
"Should a multitude of words go unanswered,
and a man full of talk be judged right?
Should your babble silence men,
and when you mock, shall no one shame you?"
These are strong words, squarely aimed at making Job feel bad about what he is saying.
The reference to "the heights of heaven" and then "Deeper than Sheol" is interesting, perhaps showing some consciousness even at this date of the later well-known association between heaven as being in the sky and hell being underground.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 02, 2016, 01:45AMJob 12 text
Job 13 text
Job 14 text
The opening verse of chapter 14 reminds me strongly of one of the more exquisitely melancholy pieces of music out there, the anthem Man that is born of a woman, from Henry Purcell's Funeral Music for Queen Mary, the words for which are taken from the burial service from the 1662 Anglican Book of Common Prayer. It seems clear to me that this section of the service is a rewrite of the opening of this chapter. Compare:
Job 14:1-2, ESV:
Man who is born of a woman
is few of days and full of trouble.
He comes out like a flower and withers;
he flees like a shadow and continues not.
Book of Common Prayer:
Man that is born of a woman hath but a short time to live, and is full of misery. He cometh up, and is cut down, like a flower; he fleeth as it were a shadow, and never continueth in one stay.
We see much of the differing phrasing when we consider the Bible translation that the Book of Common Prayer authors would have considered as standard - the iconic King James Version, published in the same century. This has:
Job 14:1-2, KJV:
Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.
He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
Anyhow - lovely music, very sad and contemplative, most apt for both Job's mood here and the funeral of a young and beloved queen. The whole funeral music sequence is a favourite piece of mine. A couple of trombones even get to play important parts in it, usually.
Purcell himself lived not long after, dying that same year in his mid-30s after apparently being locked out by his wife when returning drunk in cold weather...
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ttf_MoominDave
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Job 15 text
Highlights
- Eliphaz responds again to Job, once again telling him to haud his whisht (thought you might like another Scottishism Martin...)
Summary
- Eliphaz rebukes Job for speaking against God
- And for holding his reasoning superior to theirs
- He talks of how wickedness is divinely punished once again
Questions and Observations
1) They've all had a try at responding at him, and now this is second time around. They're clearly talking past each other by now.
Repeat begin
Job: This is not fair.
Friend: This is totally fair.
Repeat end
Nothing is being communicated between them except a sense of irritation.
Highlights
- Eliphaz responds again to Job, once again telling him to haud his whisht (thought you might like another Scottishism Martin...)
Summary
- Eliphaz rebukes Job for speaking against God
- And for holding his reasoning superior to theirs
- He talks of how wickedness is divinely punished once again
Questions and Observations
1) They've all had a try at responding at him, and now this is second time around. They're clearly talking past each other by now.
Repeat begin
Job: This is not fair.
Friend: This is totally fair.
Repeat end
Nothing is being communicated between them except a sense of irritation.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Nov 01, 2016, 01:19PMAnd on a completely different point, I've just noticed that the god that is addressed here so far is God, (probably Elohim) not the Lord, aka Yaweh. I'll have to check and think of what the significance is, but first thought is that God refers to the less personal Almighty Creator rather then Yahweh, the personal God of Israel who entered into a covenant with them
I've been wondering about this. A post here tells us:
"Shaddai is found in the oracle of Bileam, in Ruth, in Job (first being used there not by Job but by Eliphaz of Teman) - Job addresses God by the name YHWH."
I guess this shows Eliphaz preferring to think of him as a distant boss versus Job thinking that he is more accessible?
I've been wondering about this. A post here tells us:
"Shaddai is found in the oracle of Bileam, in Ruth, in Job (first being used there not by Job but by Eliphaz of Teman) - Job addresses God by the name YHWH."
I guess this shows Eliphaz preferring to think of him as a distant boss versus Job thinking that he is more accessible?
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 02, 2016, 04:15AM - Eliphaz responds again to Job, once again telling him to haud his whisht (thought you might like another Scottishism Martin...)
I like
I like
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Job 16 text
Job 17 text
Highlights
- Its not fair
Summary
ch 16
- Job responds that the friends are miserable comforters
- and that God has made him miserable
- Job imagines arguing his case in heaven
ch 17
- but laments that he will probably die without being vindicated
Questions and Observations
1) this is Job saying "its not fair". Nothing really new.
Job 17 text
Highlights
- Its not fair
Summary
ch 16
- Job responds that the friends are miserable comforters
- and that God has made him miserable
- Job imagines arguing his case in heaven
ch 17
- but laments that he will probably die without being vindicated
Questions and Observations
1) this is Job saying "its not fair". Nothing really new.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Job 18 text
Highlights
- Yes it is
Summary
- Bildad responds again
- Tells him to stop talking
- Judges him for thinking that he is correct when they are not
- Talks about how the wicked are punished
Questions and Observations
1) They're taking neat turns at responses here - Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Eliphaz, Bildad... I predict Zophar again next?
2) I don't know if you are finding the same in summarising? Most of the content seems to happen in the first few lines of each chapter, then the rest is exposition?
3) Satan didn't remove Job's friends. I guess they're doing a fair job of tormenting him as stands.
4) Job is trapped in a painful situation - his life's gone to hell, and he knows in his logical heart that he's done nothing to deserve it. His friends insist both that he did and that he is arrogant for not just giving in to their insistences. This is a wounding accusation to make - that he thinks himself better at reasoning than them - because it seems true that he is. He has no desire to 'show off' with this, but they are forcing the issue by insisting that their faulty logics must carry the day. Many resonances with modern times politically.
Highlights
- Yes it is
Summary
- Bildad responds again
- Tells him to stop talking
- Judges him for thinking that he is correct when they are not
- Talks about how the wicked are punished
Questions and Observations
1) They're taking neat turns at responses here - Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Eliphaz, Bildad... I predict Zophar again next?
2) I don't know if you are finding the same in summarising? Most of the content seems to happen in the first few lines of each chapter, then the rest is exposition?
3) Satan didn't remove Job's friends. I guess they're doing a fair job of tormenting him as stands.
4) Job is trapped in a painful situation - his life's gone to hell, and he knows in his logical heart that he's done nothing to deserve it. His friends insist both that he did and that he is arrogant for not just giving in to their insistences. This is a wounding accusation to make - that he thinks himself better at reasoning than them - because it seems true that he is. He has no desire to 'show off' with this, but they are forcing the issue by insisting that their faulty logics must carry the day. Many resonances with modern times politically.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 03, 2016, 03:46AM
2) I don't know if you are finding the same in summarising? Most of the content seems to happen in the first few lines of each chapter, then the rest is exposition?
Maybe
And we've slipped back into linking to the NRSVCE rather than the ESV
2) I don't know if you are finding the same in summarising? Most of the content seems to happen in the first few lines of each chapter, then the rest is exposition?
Maybe
And we've slipped back into linking to the NRSVCE rather than the ESV
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ttf_MoominDave
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Oops, not sure how that happened! Fixed in this post and in previous post. Your links to chapters 16 and 17 are NRSVCE, if you want to change them.
Job 19 text
Job 20 text
Highlights
- Job repeats; Zophar repeats
Summary
Chapter 19
- Job rebukes his friends for their harshness
- He laments his woes
- He wishes that his words were written down in a book
Chapter 20
- Zophar responds
- He feels insulted by Job doubting their wisdom
- He suspects Job is moving away from God
- And once more describes punishments for wicked people, to provide incentive
Questions and Observations
1) I've taken these as a pair, but this is a conversation - the structure isn't a neat Job speaks - friend answers thing. Job responds to their accusations as much as they respond to his defences.
2) Another musical moment: G. F. Handel on Job 19:25.
3) Job's wish to be written down is very meta - modern literary devices strike again, as when we were told of Nehemiah reading the Book of Ezra. Or I suppose when the author of 2 Maccabees spoke directly to us.
Job 19 text
Job 20 text
Highlights
- Job repeats; Zophar repeats
Summary
Chapter 19
- Job rebukes his friends for their harshness
- He laments his woes
- He wishes that his words were written down in a book
Chapter 20
- Zophar responds
- He feels insulted by Job doubting their wisdom
- He suspects Job is moving away from God
- And once more describes punishments for wicked people, to provide incentive
Questions and Observations
1) I've taken these as a pair, but this is a conversation - the structure isn't a neat Job speaks - friend answers thing. Job responds to their accusations as much as they respond to his defences.
2) Another musical moment: G. F. Handel on Job 19:25.
3) Job's wish to be written down is very meta - modern literary devices strike again, as when we were told of Nehemiah reading the Book of Ezra. Or I suppose when the author of 2 Maccabees spoke directly to us.
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ttf_drizabone
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while you were posting I was writing ch 19, so it gets 2 summaries.
Job 19 text
Highlights
- Stop picking on me, I didn't do anything to you.
Summary
- Stop picking on me, I didn't do anything to you.
- Look at all the ways God is assaulting me
- this is what it feels like
- everyone turns from me because they think I'm really really bad
- Stop picking on me and be nice to me
- He wants the case that he is innocent written permanently
- He knows that a champion will stand for him and will have the last say
- But that will be after Job dies.
- and those that wrongly accuse me should fear judgement themselves
Questions and Observations
1) Do you think this chapter was stated in the first few verses and then exposited in the rest?
2) I've done a unorthodox summary of v23-27. Its normally seen as a proto-gospel and is translated that way, but that doesn't really make sense of the context or the flow of Job's argument. So as much as I like the traditional meaning, I've tried to reframe it to fit in with the context. ie Job wants to carve the proof of his innocence in stone so that even if God kills him, a champion can argue his case for him.
Job 19 text
Highlights
- Stop picking on me, I didn't do anything to you.
Summary
- Stop picking on me, I didn't do anything to you.
- Look at all the ways God is assaulting me
- this is what it feels like
- everyone turns from me because they think I'm really really bad
- Stop picking on me and be nice to me
- He wants the case that he is innocent written permanently
- He knows that a champion will stand for him and will have the last say
- But that will be after Job dies.
- and those that wrongly accuse me should fear judgement themselves
Questions and Observations
1) Do you think this chapter was stated in the first few verses and then exposited in the rest?
2) I've done a unorthodox summary of v23-27. Its normally seen as a proto-gospel and is translated that way, but that doesn't really make sense of the context or the flow of Job's argument. So as much as I like the traditional meaning, I've tried to reframe it to fit in with the context. ie Job wants to carve the proof of his innocence in stone so that even if God kills him, a champion can argue his case for him.
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ttf_MoominDave
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First time that's happened for a while. I like yours better than mine - more detail pulled out.
No, I don't think this one fits a pattern of summary-exposition very well. Chapter 20 is more in this mould - hmm, is it Job vs. his friends in this pattern? I'd have to check back.
How do you mean a "proto-gospel"? I don't think I understand...
No, I don't think this one fits a pattern of summary-exposition very well. Chapter 20 is more in this mould - hmm, is it Job vs. his friends in this pattern? I'd have to check back.
How do you mean a "proto-gospel"? I don't think I understand...
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Quote from: drizabone on Nov 03, 2016, 04:28AM
- everyone turns from me because they think I'm really really bad
Do we see the same thing today, where a segment of people think the poor and distressed must have done something to deserve it?
- everyone turns from me because they think I'm really really bad
Do we see the same thing today, where a segment of people think the poor and distressed must have done something to deserve it?
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ttf_MoominDave
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Victim-blaming has been a pervasive human behaviour for a very long time.
The poor should have worked harder.
The raped woman should not have worn such provocative clothing.
The sufferer of injury should have been more careful.
The victim of crime should have taken greater precautions.
The bullied individual should have stood up for themselves.
The mentally unwell should simply pull themselves together.
The abused partner should have already walked away.
etc. etc. etc. on and on and on throughout recorded history...
The idea that a random world can administer horrifyingly unjust outcomes is a difficult one to feel comfortable with, and so far too often people readily stick their fingers in their ears and shout "la la la" when an obvious injustice is brought to their attention.
The idea that some kind of karmic mechanism administering natural justice is trundling away quietly in the background, smiting those that deserve it (and hopefully also rewarding the opposite) - this is a powerful idea to plug into this cowardly response, providing as it does an easy 'out' from the guilt of the situation: "You deserved this, so I don't have to care about it". Job done, responsibility shirked - and the shirker gets to feel smug at the idea that somehow their good fortune is karmic reward. It's repulsive behaviour.
The poor should have worked harder.
The raped woman should not have worn such provocative clothing.
The sufferer of injury should have been more careful.
The victim of crime should have taken greater precautions.
The bullied individual should have stood up for themselves.
The mentally unwell should simply pull themselves together.
The abused partner should have already walked away.
etc. etc. etc. on and on and on throughout recorded history...
The idea that a random world can administer horrifyingly unjust outcomes is a difficult one to feel comfortable with, and so far too often people readily stick their fingers in their ears and shout "la la la" when an obvious injustice is brought to their attention.
The idea that some kind of karmic mechanism administering natural justice is trundling away quietly in the background, smiting those that deserve it (and hopefully also rewarding the opposite) - this is a powerful idea to plug into this cowardly response, providing as it does an easy 'out' from the guilt of the situation: "You deserved this, so I don't have to care about it". Job done, responsibility shirked - and the shirker gets to feel smug at the idea that somehow their good fortune is karmic reward. It's repulsive behaviour.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 03, 2016, 04:37AMHow do you mean a "proto-gospel"? I don't think I understand...
By "proto-gospel" I mean an early statement of the gospel. Job's statement appears to look forward to Jesus redeeming us, but now I don't think it is a reference to it. But most christians do I think, because it sounds so good.
Genesis 3:15 is a real one, that does predict Jesus victory over Satan/sin.
By "proto-gospel" I mean an early statement of the gospel. Job's statement appears to look forward to Jesus redeeming us, but now I don't think it is a reference to it. But most christians do I think, because it sounds so good.
Genesis 3:15 is a real one, that does predict Jesus victory over Satan/sin.
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Job 20 text
Highlights
- Zophar warns Job that the wicked are inescapably doomed.
Summary
- the wicked will be completely destroyed
- there is no lasting profit from wrongdoing
- the final doom of the wicked is enescapable
Questions and Observations
1) Job has lived through the doom that Zophar claims is reserved for the wicked and is convinced he is not wicked. He doesn't need to be told that Zophar's picture is not true to real life.
Highlights
- Zophar warns Job that the wicked are inescapably doomed.
Summary
- the wicked will be completely destroyed
- there is no lasting profit from wrongdoing
- the final doom of the wicked is enescapable
Questions and Observations
1) Job has lived through the doom that Zophar claims is reserved for the wicked and is convinced he is not wicked. He doesn't need to be told that Zophar's picture is not true to real life.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: drizabone on Nov 03, 2016, 04:28AM2) I've done a unorthodox summary of v23-27. Its normally seen as a proto-gospel and is translated that way, but that doesn't really make sense of the context or the flow of Job's argument. So as much as I like the traditional meaning, I've tried to reframe it to fit in with the context. ie Job wants to carve the proof of his innocence in stone so that even if God kills him, a champion can argue his case for him.
I went to a church Dad's and kids camp this weekend and quizzed a few of the theologians there about this. They argue that Job has listed all the people that have turned against him: family, children in the street, servants and his friends, so that only one left that can be his champion is God. I'm not entirely sure, but its unlikely I'd come up with something original that was correct so its probably right. And its much more inspiring too.
I went to a church Dad's and kids camp this weekend and quizzed a few of the theologians there about this. They argue that Job has listed all the people that have turned against him: family, children in the street, servants and his friends, so that only one left that can be his champion is God. I'm not entirely sure, but its unlikely I'd come up with something original that was correct so its probably right. And its much more inspiring too.
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ttf_drizabone
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Job 21 text
Highlights
- Job says : The wicked prosper and the righteous suffer
Summary
- Job says that if his friends listen to him once that will comfort him
- Job asks why the wicked prosper and live to an old age and die in peace and prosperity
- How often do they suffer
- Being good or bad makes no difference: they all die
- experience proves Job right
Questions and Observations
1) Will they listen to him?
Highlights
- Job says : The wicked prosper and the righteous suffer
Summary
- Job says that if his friends listen to him once that will comfort him
- Job asks why the wicked prosper and live to an old age and die in peace and prosperity
- How often do they suffer
- Being good or bad makes no difference: they all die
- experience proves Job right
Questions and Observations
1) Will they listen to him?
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ttf_MoominDave
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Job 22 text
Highlights
- Eliphaz responds with repeated criticism and injunctions to just accept things as fair
Summary
Eliphaz says:
- It doesn't matter to God what you think, does it?
- You might think you've been good, but here's a recasting of your past actions less favourably
- Something apparently rather confused: 'God doesn't see things', 'Wickedness doesn't prosper', 'Actually it does'. See comment (2).
- Come round to God, and things will get better
Questions and Observations
1) Putting comment on the previous chapter here rather than multiplying posts - Job is nailing a lot of the thoughts that drive people away from Christianity. Unjust outcomes are myriad and seen over and over everywhere. An omnipotent deity must be watching and approving. Ergo - there seems to be something a bit wrong with this Christianity lark, let's think about its claims a bit more carefully.
2) Eliphaz's point in vv12-13 is unclear to me. Is he saying that God's perception is faulty? Seems an unlikely line for him to take. Is he also contradicting himself in successive sentences? I wonder if I have missed the point of these verses.
3) This is to my mind an unconvincing reply from Eliphaz all told.
Highlights
- Eliphaz responds with repeated criticism and injunctions to just accept things as fair
Summary
Eliphaz says:
- It doesn't matter to God what you think, does it?
- You might think you've been good, but here's a recasting of your past actions less favourably
- Something apparently rather confused: 'God doesn't see things', 'Wickedness doesn't prosper', 'Actually it does'. See comment (2).
- Come round to God, and things will get better
Questions and Observations
1) Putting comment on the previous chapter here rather than multiplying posts - Job is nailing a lot of the thoughts that drive people away from Christianity. Unjust outcomes are myriad and seen over and over everywhere. An omnipotent deity must be watching and approving. Ergo - there seems to be something a bit wrong with this Christianity lark, let's think about its claims a bit more carefully.
2) Eliphaz's point in vv12-13 is unclear to me. Is he saying that God's perception is faulty? Seems an unlikely line for him to take. Is he also contradicting himself in successive sentences? I wonder if I have missed the point of these verses.
3) This is to my mind an unconvincing reply from Eliphaz all told.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 06, 2016, 03:27AM1) Putting comment on the previous chapter here rather than multiplying posts - Job is nailing a lot of the thoughts that drive people away from Christianity. Unjust outcomes are myriad and seen over and over everywhere. An omnipotent deity must be watching and approving. Ergo - there seems to be something a bit wrong with this Christianity lark, let's think about it's claims a bit more carefully.
Theodicy again. Its complicated. Read this : https://www.amazon.com/Many-Faces-Evil-Revised-Expanded/dp/1581345674
Australian's don't tend to be so analytical in their religion, unless you call real estate a religion. We tend to think that life's ok, the good stuff happens without God and so does the bad. What do I need God for?
And your analytical person who rejects God gets to retreat into the warm fuzzy arms of the universe? Not.
Quote2) Eliphaz's point in vv12-13 is unclear to me. Is he saying that God's perception is faulty? Seems an unlikely line for him to take. Is he also contradicting himself in successive sentences? I wonder if I have missed the point of these verses.
Eliphaz's line of argument is, I think, that Job is suffering because he is sinful, that those sins must be secret because up until now there was no evidence for them, that Job must be assuming that God doesn't know about them either, but God really does know about them cause he is punishing Job, so Job needs to agree with God so that he can have some peace.
I think that there is supposed to be a contrast between v12 where Eliphaz says that God is high up implying that he can see everything and v13 and 14 where he thinks Job thinks that God can't see everything and so can get away with his hidden sins (, that somehow Eliphaz now knows about).
Quote3) This is to my mind an unconvincing reply from Eliphaz all told.
Job wasn't convinced either.
Theodicy again. Its complicated. Read this : https://www.amazon.com/Many-Faces-Evil-Revised-Expanded/dp/1581345674
Australian's don't tend to be so analytical in their religion, unless you call real estate a religion. We tend to think that life's ok, the good stuff happens without God and so does the bad. What do I need God for?
And your analytical person who rejects God gets to retreat into the warm fuzzy arms of the universe? Not.
Quote2) Eliphaz's point in vv12-13 is unclear to me. Is he saying that God's perception is faulty? Seems an unlikely line for him to take. Is he also contradicting himself in successive sentences? I wonder if I have missed the point of these verses.
Eliphaz's line of argument is, I think, that Job is suffering because he is sinful, that those sins must be secret because up until now there was no evidence for them, that Job must be assuming that God doesn't know about them either, but God really does know about them cause he is punishing Job, so Job needs to agree with God so that he can have some peace.
I think that there is supposed to be a contrast between v12 where Eliphaz says that God is high up implying that he can see everything and v13 and 14 where he thinks Job thinks that God can't see everything and so can get away with his hidden sins (, that somehow Eliphaz now knows about).
Quote3) This is to my mind an unconvincing reply from Eliphaz all told.
Job wasn't convinced either.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Nov 07, 2016, 12:04AMTheodicy again. Its complicated. Read this : https://www.amazon.com/Many-Faces-Evil-Revised-Expanded/dp/1581345674
Or one can just opt out of the system and spare oneself the need to reconcile apparently conflicting things entirely...
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 07, 2016, 12:04AMAustralian's don't tend to be so analytical in their religion, unless you call real estate a religion. We tend to think that life's ok, the good stuff happens without God and so does the bad. What do I need God for?
Is that a comment on Australian atheism, or do you feel some kinship with it?
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 07, 2016, 12:04AMAnd your analytical person who rejects God gets to retreat into the warm fuzzy arms of the universe? Not.
That's not really the point of it, to my mind. If the philosophical choice is between living in a warm fuzzy place and feeling that I've made as full an effort to approach understanding of what's going on as is necessary, then uncomfortable hard-headedness is going to win for me every time. Anything else just feels like I'm not being honest with myself. And while I'll encourage anyone to see the same benefits (basically eliminating the risk of getting trapped by not-accurate-enough dogmatic positions), I recognise that for some the attraction of warm and fuzzy is so great and comforting that they are very unlikely to ever be able to bring themselves to embrace anything that challenges it.
But good news... There is plenty of warm and fuzzy in our privileged existences without the need to hypothesise warm and fuzzy flights of fancy. There are plenty of good people in the world, and even such odd creatures as trombonists don't tend to have too hard a time of finding like-minded places to hang around in...
Or one can just opt out of the system and spare oneself the need to reconcile apparently conflicting things entirely...
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 07, 2016, 12:04AMAustralian's don't tend to be so analytical in their religion, unless you call real estate a religion. We tend to think that life's ok, the good stuff happens without God and so does the bad. What do I need God for?
Is that a comment on Australian atheism, or do you feel some kinship with it?
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 07, 2016, 12:04AMAnd your analytical person who rejects God gets to retreat into the warm fuzzy arms of the universe? Not.
That's not really the point of it, to my mind. If the philosophical choice is between living in a warm fuzzy place and feeling that I've made as full an effort to approach understanding of what's going on as is necessary, then uncomfortable hard-headedness is going to win for me every time. Anything else just feels like I'm not being honest with myself. And while I'll encourage anyone to see the same benefits (basically eliminating the risk of getting trapped by not-accurate-enough dogmatic positions), I recognise that for some the attraction of warm and fuzzy is so great and comforting that they are very unlikely to ever be able to bring themselves to embrace anything that challenges it.
But good news... There is plenty of warm and fuzzy in our privileged existences without the need to hypothesise warm and fuzzy flights of fancy. There are plenty of good people in the world, and even such odd creatures as trombonists don't tend to have too hard a time of finding like-minded places to hang around in...
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ttf_MoominDave
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Job 23 text
Job 24 text
Highlights
- Job responds: He lays out his attitude to Yahweh, which seems humble but alert
Summary
Job says:
Chapter 23
- He wishes he had the opportunity to lay his case before Yahweh
- He has no illusions of his own worth; he simply wishes to have his grievance heard fairly and be judged upon with clarity
- He knows that although he cannot perceive Yahweh, Yahweh can perceive him at all times, and he is appropriately in awe of this
- But he will not cease to speak up for what is just
Chapter 24
- He queries why this all-powerful judge is never perceived
- When cheats and thieves prosper
- And there are deserving people among the poor
- Sheol knows who has been naughty and nice
- But in life what makes people prosper is already being prosperous
- He challenges his friends to dispute this, finding it self-evident
Questions and Observations
1) We haven't seen many (if any?) hints of afterlife judgment in the text of the whole Bible so far, I think. But in verse 19, Job tells us that he believes that it happens, again in Sheol, this proto-hell type concept that hasn't been explained very clearly at all.
2) When good Christians read this book, which characters do they empathise with? I am very much on Job's side here, and find it hard to see how one could be otherwise, but maybe some read things differently?
Job 24 text
Highlights
- Job responds: He lays out his attitude to Yahweh, which seems humble but alert
Summary
Job says:
Chapter 23
- He wishes he had the opportunity to lay his case before Yahweh
- He has no illusions of his own worth; he simply wishes to have his grievance heard fairly and be judged upon with clarity
- He knows that although he cannot perceive Yahweh, Yahweh can perceive him at all times, and he is appropriately in awe of this
- But he will not cease to speak up for what is just
Chapter 24
- He queries why this all-powerful judge is never perceived
- When cheats and thieves prosper
- And there are deserving people among the poor
- Sheol knows who has been naughty and nice
- But in life what makes people prosper is already being prosperous
- He challenges his friends to dispute this, finding it self-evident
Questions and Observations
1) We haven't seen many (if any?) hints of afterlife judgment in the text of the whole Bible so far, I think. But in verse 19, Job tells us that he believes that it happens, again in Sheol, this proto-hell type concept that hasn't been explained very clearly at all.
2) When good Christians read this book, which characters do they empathise with? I am very much on Job's side here, and find it hard to see how one could be otherwise, but maybe some read things differently?
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 07, 2016, 03:39AM
Questions and Observations
1) We haven't seen many (if any?) hints of afterlife judgment in the text of the whole Bible so far, I think. But in verse 19, Job tells us that he believes that it happens, again in Sheol, this proto-hell type concept that hasn't been explained very clearly at all.
There's not much been said about it has there. And the statements in Job are in the mouths of people that I don't think are speaking authoritatively so I'm not sure if they are much more than what was generally thought at the time.
Quote2) When good Christians read this book, which characters do they empathise with? I am very much on Job's side here, and find it hard to see how one could be otherwise, but maybe some read things differently?
The 3 friends are heartless, they apply their theology in a legalistic, unfeeling implacable way, so I don't think that they get much empathy. They continue to argue their points even when it is made clear that the basis of their arguements are wrong. I think that most people are and think you should be more caring than they, so don't share those feelings.
Job is the innocent victim of a game between 2 powerful being, that he doesn't even know about: he's suffering because he is good, and even if he has done some things wrong, the punishment is way out of proportion. But everyone in the story thinks that Job is really bad because his suffering is so great, so he wants to prove his innocence, that he has not done anything to deserve that amount of punishment. He's the underdog, he maintains his innocence despite the opposition and does it with dignity.
I think most would understand Job's stand and see his character as admirable too.
Questions and Observations
1) We haven't seen many (if any?) hints of afterlife judgment in the text of the whole Bible so far, I think. But in verse 19, Job tells us that he believes that it happens, again in Sheol, this proto-hell type concept that hasn't been explained very clearly at all.
There's not much been said about it has there. And the statements in Job are in the mouths of people that I don't think are speaking authoritatively so I'm not sure if they are much more than what was generally thought at the time.
Quote2) When good Christians read this book, which characters do they empathise with? I am very much on Job's side here, and find it hard to see how one could be otherwise, but maybe some read things differently?
The 3 friends are heartless, they apply their theology in a legalistic, unfeeling implacable way, so I don't think that they get much empathy. They continue to argue their points even when it is made clear that the basis of their arguements are wrong. I think that most people are and think you should be more caring than they, so don't share those feelings.
Job is the innocent victim of a game between 2 powerful being, that he doesn't even know about: he's suffering because he is good, and even if he has done some things wrong, the punishment is way out of proportion. But everyone in the story thinks that Job is really bad because his suffering is so great, so he wants to prove his innocence, that he has not done anything to deserve that amount of punishment. He's the underdog, he maintains his innocence despite the opposition and does it with dignity.
I think most would understand Job's stand and see his character as admirable too.
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ttf_drizabone
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Job 25 text
Job 26 text
Highlights
- God is
Summary
- Bildad says: a person cannot be righteous before God
- Job says: your advice is useless
Questions and Observations
1) These chapters seem abbreviated. Maybe they are running out of ideas or see the futility of arguing.
2) v5 ... seems like a continuation of Bildad's argument that God is so wise and powerful that we couldn't be righteous in comparison with him.
Job 26 text
Highlights
- God is
Summary
- Bildad says: a person cannot be righteous before God
- Job says: your advice is useless
Questions and Observations
1) These chapters seem abbreviated. Maybe they are running out of ideas or see the futility of arguing.
2) v5 ... seems like a continuation of Bildad's argument that God is so wise and powerful that we couldn't be righteous in comparison with him.
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ttf_MoominDave
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They do seem to be losing steam a little. Though, looking ahead, I see that Job is drawing breath to wind up for quite a peroration..
Job 26:6 is interesting, regarding the afterlife stuff:
Sheol is naked before God,
and Abaddon has no covering.
At this time, Sheol seems to have been thought of as an underground place where all dead went, regardless of judgment, while Abaddon seems to have been thought of a pit within this. Same idea as Dante's Inferno, I guess.
In general, Jewish opinion on these things does not seem to fit into neatly-defined boxes, something that I find interesting in itself. Christianity tries to make this all much more clearly defined.
Job 26:6 is interesting, regarding the afterlife stuff:
Sheol is naked before God,
and Abaddon has no covering.
At this time, Sheol seems to have been thought of as an underground place where all dead went, regardless of judgment, while Abaddon seems to have been thought of a pit within this. Same idea as Dante's Inferno, I guess.
In general, Jewish opinion on these things does not seem to fit into neatly-defined boxes, something that I find interesting in itself. Christianity tries to make this all much more clearly defined.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Job 27 text
Job 28 text
Highlights
- Job continues his summary of the case for the defence
Summary
Chapter 27
- Job maintains that he will continue to hold steadfast to what he perceives as right
- He points out that he cannot have rejected Yahweh because he is talking submissively about him
- Wicked people do eventually reap what they sow
Chapter 28
- He cites the industrial skills of humans
- Comparing extraction techniques with the extracting of wisdom, noting how relatively nebulous wisdom is
- He says that wisdom comes from trusting Yahweh
Questions and Observations
1) Job's point that wickedness eventually produces ill reward rather conflicts with his earlier insistence that often it doesn't.
Job 28 text
Highlights
- Job continues his summary of the case for the defence
Summary
Chapter 27
- Job maintains that he will continue to hold steadfast to what he perceives as right
- He points out that he cannot have rejected Yahweh because he is talking submissively about him
- Wicked people do eventually reap what they sow
Chapter 28
- He cites the industrial skills of humans
- Comparing extraction techniques with the extracting of wisdom, noting how relatively nebulous wisdom is
- He says that wisdom comes from trusting Yahweh
Questions and Observations
1) Job's point that wickedness eventually produces ill reward rather conflicts with his earlier insistence that often it doesn't.
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Job 29 text
Job 30 text
Job 31 text
Highlights
- Job winds up his summary
Summary
Chapter 29
- Job wistfully talks about how things used to be
- He misses the influence he had, and talks of how he used that influence to do righteous things
Chapter 30
- He laments that those who once respected him now disdain him
- Because of what Yahweh has done to him
Chapter 31
- He lists ways in which his conduct was consistently righteous
- And appeals to Yahweh for his judgment
- Suggesting fitting ways in which failure of the suggested conduct ought to be punished
Questions and Observations
1) There's a lot of words in these three chapters, but I think it's all pretty straightforward stuff, no?
2) Job and his friends Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar are now done with their conversation. Job's final broadside has left them unwilling to further rebuke him.
Job 30 text
Job 31 text
Highlights
- Job winds up his summary
Summary
Chapter 29
- Job wistfully talks about how things used to be
- He misses the influence he had, and talks of how he used that influence to do righteous things
Chapter 30
- He laments that those who once respected him now disdain him
- Because of what Yahweh has done to him
Chapter 31
- He lists ways in which his conduct was consistently righteous
- And appeals to Yahweh for his judgment
- Suggesting fitting ways in which failure of the suggested conduct ought to be punished
Questions and Observations
1) There's a lot of words in these three chapters, but I think it's all pretty straightforward stuff, no?
2) Job and his friends Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar are now done with their conversation. Job's final broadside has left them unwilling to further rebuke him.
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ttf_drizabone
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Job 32 text
Job 33 text
Job 34 text
Job 35 text
Job 36 text
Job 37 text
Highlights
- Elihu shares his opinion
Summary
32-33
- Elihu introduces himself and establishes his right to speak, basically "you old fogies are just full of hot air"
- he explains why God brings sufferings : they are warnings from God that you need to repent or not do the wrong thing
- Job has implied that God is guilty of bringing unjust punishment: Elihu argues for his innocence
34
- God is just and will not do the wrong thing
- Job is wrong to accuse God of injustice; he speaks without knowledge
35
- Job should not have complained and demanded vindication but called to God for help.
36-37
- Elihu praises Gods power and wisdom
Questions and Observations
1) Lots of scholars think that Elihu may be a later addition to the original which went straight from Job's speech to God's reply
2) He is not mentioned in prolog or epilog
3) These young'uns think they know everything
Job 33 text
Job 34 text
Job 35 text
Job 36 text
Job 37 text
Highlights
- Elihu shares his opinion
Summary
32-33
- Elihu introduces himself and establishes his right to speak, basically "you old fogies are just full of hot air"
- he explains why God brings sufferings : they are warnings from God that you need to repent or not do the wrong thing
- Job has implied that God is guilty of bringing unjust punishment: Elihu argues for his innocence
34
- God is just and will not do the wrong thing
- Job is wrong to accuse God of injustice; he speaks without knowledge
35
- Job should not have complained and demanded vindication but called to God for help.
36-37
- Elihu praises Gods power and wisdom
Questions and Observations
1) Lots of scholars think that Elihu may be a later addition to the original which went straight from Job's speech to God's reply
2) He is not mentioned in prolog or epilog
3) These young'uns think they know everything
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Nov 10, 2016, 08:37PM - Elihu shares his opinion
He sets himself out as bringing a new perspective to events, holding Job's friends in scorn as much as holding Job so. But he largely simply repeats what Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar have been saying over and over - "Job, you're wrong, admit it, go on".
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 10, 2016, 08:37PM1) Lots of scholars think that Elihu may be a later addition to the original which went straight from Job's speech to God's reply
2) He is not mentioned in prolog or epilog
That does ring true; it's not of a piece with the rest.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 10, 2016, 08:37PM3) These young'uns think they know everything
He's certainly drastically lacking in humility...
He sets himself out as bringing a new perspective to events, holding Job's friends in scorn as much as holding Job so. But he largely simply repeats what Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar have been saying over and over - "Job, you're wrong, admit it, go on".
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 10, 2016, 08:37PM1) Lots of scholars think that Elihu may be a later addition to the original which went straight from Job's speech to God's reply
2) He is not mentioned in prolog or epilog
That does ring true; it's not of a piece with the rest.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 10, 2016, 08:37PM3) These young'uns think they know everything
He's certainly drastically lacking in humility...
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ttf_MoominDave
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Job 38 text
Job 39 text
Highlights
- Yahweh begins his response to Job
Summary
Chapter 38
- Yahweh manifests in a whirlwind, out of which he addresses Job
- Yahweh calls Job's oratory uninformed
- He underlines his all-seeingness and immortality with examples of his experience that Job cannot possibly have witnessed:
- Creation of the Earth, seas, light, 'dwellings of light and of darkness', control the weather, the stars, animals
Chapter 39
- More animals
Questions and Observations
1) Yes, there was no need for Elihu, was there? This fits more neatly onto the end of Job's conversation with his friends.
2) What does Yahweh mean by dwellings of light and darkness?
3) Yahweh is thus far following pretty closely the line taken by Job's friends - that he is so much more knowing than Job that Job's questioning of his will is offensive.
4) I imagine Job wasn't expecting a personal visit... Much though he's been explicitly asking for one.
5) Job's justified complaints are not being addressed at all here. Yahweh's done something wrong by Job, but his response is to shout him down. I am not getting a very satisfied feeling in my natural justice nerve here yet.
Job 39 text
Highlights
- Yahweh begins his response to Job
Summary
Chapter 38
- Yahweh manifests in a whirlwind, out of which he addresses Job
- Yahweh calls Job's oratory uninformed
- He underlines his all-seeingness and immortality with examples of his experience that Job cannot possibly have witnessed:
- Creation of the Earth, seas, light, 'dwellings of light and of darkness', control the weather, the stars, animals
Chapter 39
- More animals
Questions and Observations
1) Yes, there was no need for Elihu, was there? This fits more neatly onto the end of Job's conversation with his friends.
2) What does Yahweh mean by dwellings of light and darkness?
3) Yahweh is thus far following pretty closely the line taken by Job's friends - that he is so much more knowing than Job that Job's questioning of his will is offensive.
4) I imagine Job wasn't expecting a personal visit... Much though he's been explicitly asking for one.
5) Job's justified complaints are not being addressed at all here. Yahweh's done something wrong by Job, but his response is to shout him down. I am not getting a very satisfied feeling in my natural justice nerve here yet.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 11, 2016, 03:47AM2) What does Yahweh mean by dwellings of light and darkness?
This isn't a science text, so I think that they are metaphors to emphasise Job's lack of knowledge about the way the world works. Same for the storehouses of the snow and hail.
Quote3) Yahweh is thus far following pretty closely the line taken by Job's friends - that he is so much more knowing than Job that Job's questioning of his will is offensive.
I don't think that there is anything personal in God's put down. I don't see that God is taking offense, and he doesn't condemn Job for sinning. He just shows that Job doesn't know enough about the world to be able to criticize God for running the world the way he does.
God does stuff in nature that is not for our benefit, eg rain in uninhabited land, but for other purposes that Job didn't know about
The animals that God lists are noted for their cruelty and power and uncontrollability and hostility to man. God is implying that nature is not only beyond Job's understanding but that it is wild and cruel.
I think he wants us to draw a parallel to suffering in this. It is part of God's order: its sometimes cruel, we don't always know its purpose, its not always controllable and its not always for our benefit.
Quote5) Job's justified complaints are not being addressed at all here. Yahweh's done something wrong by Job, but his response is to shout him down. I am not getting a very satisfied feeling in my natural justice nerve here yet.
Its just not fair.
This isn't a science text, so I think that they are metaphors to emphasise Job's lack of knowledge about the way the world works. Same for the storehouses of the snow and hail.
Quote3) Yahweh is thus far following pretty closely the line taken by Job's friends - that he is so much more knowing than Job that Job's questioning of his will is offensive.
I don't think that there is anything personal in God's put down. I don't see that God is taking offense, and he doesn't condemn Job for sinning. He just shows that Job doesn't know enough about the world to be able to criticize God for running the world the way he does.
God does stuff in nature that is not for our benefit, eg rain in uninhabited land, but for other purposes that Job didn't know about
The animals that God lists are noted for their cruelty and power and uncontrollability and hostility to man. God is implying that nature is not only beyond Job's understanding but that it is wild and cruel.
I think he wants us to draw a parallel to suffering in this. It is part of God's order: its sometimes cruel, we don't always know its purpose, its not always controllable and its not always for our benefit.
Quote5) Job's justified complaints are not being addressed at all here. Yahweh's done something wrong by Job, but his response is to shout him down. I am not getting a very satisfied feeling in my natural justice nerve here yet.
Its just not fair.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Nov 11, 2016, 03:47PMThis isn't a science text, so I think that they are metaphors to emphasise Job's lack of knowledge about the way the world works. Same for the storehouses of the snow and hail.
I wondered if they were references to Heaven and Hell - or rather, the Firmament and Sheol, as perhaps more appropriate to this age of Judaism.
I wondered if they were references to Heaven and Hell - or rather, the Firmament and Sheol, as perhaps more appropriate to this age of Judaism.
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ttf_drizabone
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Job 40 text
Job 41 text
Highlights
- God continues his bragging
Summary
chapter 40
- God tells Job to argue his point : Job says he has nothing to say
- So the Lord continues:
- challenging Job to be as powerful as he is
- bragging about his 2 greatest creations: Behemoth and Leviathan, that are beyond man's control
Questions and Observations
1) some have tried to identify what Behemoth and Leviathan are. Its speculative as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure whether they are supposed to be actual animals or mataphors for God's power. If you want a guess they sound like a dinosaur and large aquatic reptile, but that would only encourage the young earthers.
Job 41 text
Highlights
- God continues his bragging
Summary
chapter 40
- God tells Job to argue his point : Job says he has nothing to say
- So the Lord continues:
- challenging Job to be as powerful as he is
- bragging about his 2 greatest creations: Behemoth and Leviathan, that are beyond man's control
Questions and Observations
1) some have tried to identify what Behemoth and Leviathan are. Its speculative as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure whether they are supposed to be actual animals or mataphors for God's power. If you want a guess they sound like a dinosaur and large aquatic reptile, but that would only encourage the young earthers.
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ttf_MoominDave
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I learn to my surprise that a kind of elephant lived until the late centuries BC in this area - the Syrian elephant. Seems a good candidate.
Or maybe they weren't real. After all, the national animal of Scotland is the unicorn...
Or maybe they weren't real. After all, the national animal of Scotland is the unicorn...
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ttf_MoominDave
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Job 42 text
Highlights
- Everyone lives happily ever after
Summary
- Job replies to Yahweh, saying that he did not realise how much greater than him Yahweh is, and grovelling
- Yahweh rebukes Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar, for their words
- Yahweh restores Job's fortunes to double what they were before
Questions and Observations
1) Job has changed his mind here - he'd previously been at great pains to underline how much he comprehended the differences between a human and a god.
2) Bit much for the friends to be rebuked like this - is it for not being on their knees at this precise moment? Else it doesn't make much sense - they've been giving Job the line that Yahweh eventually did throughout.
3) A very literal Deus ex Machina rescues Job here. Is it a satisfying ending? Not to me, to be honest. What of the involvement of Satan? He gets no mention in the coda. Does Yahweh explain things to Job? Not at all. Does Yahweh atone for his evil-doing earlier? Not in the slightest - in fact, he doubles down in the manner of a bully. What of Job's children and servants, murdered earlier in order to cause Job suffering? Simply replaced by new children and servants. This book leaves a lot of theological questions hanging, I think.
Highlights
- Everyone lives happily ever after
Summary
- Job replies to Yahweh, saying that he did not realise how much greater than him Yahweh is, and grovelling
- Yahweh rebukes Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar, for their words
- Yahweh restores Job's fortunes to double what they were before
Questions and Observations
1) Job has changed his mind here - he'd previously been at great pains to underline how much he comprehended the differences between a human and a god.
2) Bit much for the friends to be rebuked like this - is it for not being on their knees at this precise moment? Else it doesn't make much sense - they've been giving Job the line that Yahweh eventually did throughout.
3) A very literal Deus ex Machina rescues Job here. Is it a satisfying ending? Not to me, to be honest. What of the involvement of Satan? He gets no mention in the coda. Does Yahweh explain things to Job? Not at all. Does Yahweh atone for his evil-doing earlier? Not in the slightest - in fact, he doubles down in the manner of a bully. What of Job's children and servants, murdered earlier in order to cause Job suffering? Simply replaced by new children and servants. This book leaves a lot of theological questions hanging, I think.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:58PMPart I - The Tetrateuch
Genesis
Deuteronomy
1 Chronicles
Job
Genesis
- [li]Big picture stuff
- [li]Creation; Adam & Eve[/li][li]Humans, take 1; Cain & Abel, Noah[/li][li]The Flood; Wash everything away, start again[/li][li]Humans, take 2[/li]
- [li]Joseph; betrayal to Egypt, rise, saving of family, supposed origins of 12 tribes[/li]
- [li]New scene, three generations on - Israelites now of low status in Egypt[/li][li]Moses grows up, fights battle of wills with Pharoah over plagues, leads Israelites to depart[/li][li]Wandering, take 1; through the desert to Mt. Sinai, where they make a long camp and...[/li]
- [li]...many laws are given[/li]
- [li]Wandering, take 2; they reach their destination, but are too weak to attempt the task, and so...[/li][li]Wandering, take 3; more pootling around, building up military prowess over the years in the preparation for invasion; new leaders emerge, and they finish on the brink of their destination again[/li]
Deuteronomy
- [li]Moses orates; recap of terms and conditions, forward planning[/li][li]Moses dies[/li]
- [li]Conquest of Canaan under Joshua[/li][li]Division of conquered land between the tribes, East and West banks of the Jordan[/li]
- [li]Prologue: Messy details of attempted not-always-successful conquest, compare with previous book[/li][li]An intermittent sequence of Judges leads: Othniel, Ehud, Shamgar, Deborah, Gideon, Tola, Jair, Jephthah, Ibzan, Elon, Abdon, Samson[/li][li]The Dan tribe take territory in the North and the Benjamin tribe are defeated by the other tribes[/li]
- [li]Intermezzo: Heartwarming tale of a family coming through hard times in the era of the Judges[/li]
- [li]Samuel is a priestly leader in a time of Philistine conflicts who needs a worthy successor[/li][li]Saul is appointed to the new role of king and with his son Jonathan defeats the Ammonites, Philistines, Amalekites, but he falls out with Samuel, who anoints David as a replacement king secretly[/li][li]David (a military hero) and Saul vie for superiority over a long period, eventually brought to an end when the Philistines kill Saul in battle[/li]
- [li]The kingdom nearly splits, but David unites it, doing many heroic deeds[/li][li]But in time he becomes morally suspect and manipulated by schemers[/li]
- [li]David dies, succeeded by Solomon, who consolidates his power base brutally but gains great wealth and a reputation for great wisdom, building the "first temple" and a palace; however, like David he becomes morally suspect in time[/li][li]After he dies, the kingdom is split into Israel (larger Northern portion) and Judah (smaller Southern portion), and the continual inference is that Judah is the legitimate one of the two[/li][li]Kings succeed in both Israel and Judah; Elijah gains prominence as a prophet[/li]
- [li]Long successions of kings of both Israel and Judah are described, and the prophet Elisha comes to prominence[/li][li]Most kings do not prioritise Yahweh-worship - none in Israel, but some in Judah.
[/li][li]First Israel then Judah are unable to tread the difficult path of negotiation between stronger powers on either side, with both populations destroyed and exiled by 586 BC[/li]
1 Chronicles
- [li]Recap of genealogy to the beginning; return of some exiles to Judah[/li][li]Recap of Samuel written to favour David more highly[/li]
- [li]Recap of Kings with only the Judah parts and a focus on relations with Yahweh[/li][li]End of exile when Babylon falls[/li]
- [li]Cyrus of Persia commands Judah to return home and rebuild their temple; decades later Artaxerxes of Persia commands Ezra to lead a second wave of returnees[/li]
- [li]Nehemiah, a Judahite official of Artaxerxes of Persia, is appointed governor of Judah, rebuilding Jerusalem's wall; he and Ezra organise Judah, mixing enlightened social reform with brutally dogmatic interpretations of Mosaic law[/li]
- [li]Tobit and his son Tobias are exiled in Nineveh when Israel falls, while Sarah lives in Media; a demon has killed seven of her husbands. With an angel's help, Tobias rescues her, and everyone lives happily ever after[/li]
- [li]Nebuchadnezzar is enraged by the Israelites' failure to answer a military summons, and despatches his general Holofernes with his army to suppress them; Judith, a beautiful Israelite widow, uses feminine wiles to distract Holofernes, killing him[/li]
- [li]Jewish exile in Susa Esther wins a beauty contest to become queen of Persia; factions vie to destroy the Jews in Persia, but the influence of her and her uncle Mordecai carries the day[/li]
- [li]In the 160s BC the Greek rulers attempt a religious crackdown in Judaea, against which Judas Maccabeus leads a rebellion[/li][li]Various competing empires trade blows, and all the while the rebellion becomes more secure; Jonathan Apphus and then Simon Thassi succeed Judas and establish a medium-term peace, along with Simon's dynasty, the Hasmonaeans[/li]
- [li]Prior to the Maccabean revolt, unedifying political struggles within the priesthood result in turmoil, resulting in the crackdown of 1 Maccabees; Judas leads the first portion of his revolt, in less detail this time[/li]
Job
- [li]Job is a wealthy and good man, devoted to Yahweh[/li][li]Satan talks Yahweh into letting him test Job's faith, which he does by destroying his fortune, family, and health[/li][li]Job and his friends talk it over at length; Job is convinced of his innocence, his friends of his guilt[/li][li]Yahweh eventually turns up and ticks them all off for not respecting him enough; he restores Job's fortunes twice over[/li]
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: drizabone on Nov 12, 2016, 04:25AM - bragging about his 2 greatest creations: Behemoth and Leviathan, that are beyond man's control
Questions and Observations
1) some have tried to identify what Behemoth and Leviathan are. Its speculative as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure whether they are supposed to be actual animals or mataphors for God's power. If you want a guess they sound like a dinosaur and large aquatic reptile, but that would only encourage the young earthers.
I researched this sometime back, and came to the conclusion that behemoth is hippopotamus and leviathan is crocodile. That fits all the evidence, especially after I saw a hippo spin its tail like a propeller to disperse its waste .
Questions and Observations
1) some have tried to identify what Behemoth and Leviathan are. Its speculative as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure whether they are supposed to be actual animals or mataphors for God's power. If you want a guess they sound like a dinosaur and large aquatic reptile, but that would only encourage the young earthers.
I researched this sometime back, and came to the conclusion that behemoth is hippopotamus and leviathan is crocodile. That fits all the evidence, especially after I saw a hippo spin its tail like a propeller to disperse its waste .
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 12, 2016, 05:30AM
1) Job has changed his mind here - he'd previously been at great pains to underline how much he comprehended the differences between a human and a god.
so God's argument succeeded?
Quote2) Bit much for the friends to be rebuked like this - is it for not being on their knees at this precise moment? Else it doesn't make much sense - they've been giving Job the line that Yahweh eventually did throughout.
My recollection is that his friends consistently said that
- Job must have been a bad sinner because of all the bad things that had happened to him.
- in life the bad were always punished and the good rewarded
- they ignored Job's arguements to the contrary
As Job said (I think) they were false witnesses.
Gods argument was that he had the right to do what he likes and that Job didn't know enough to criticise him. I get the impression that God was arguing with God man to man so to speak, giving him the opportunity to respond to what God said. I don't see God as a bully here. That he is powerful and scary is just what he is. His depiction of powerful and scary things that are out of man's control was not to intimidate so much as to point out that Job wasn't able to control nature so should just put up with it.
I agree that this is not satisfying for someone that wants to know the reasons why something is the way it is but I think that God's approach was appropriate. An analogy would be if a noob like me went to the director of the LHC and said I was offended about the way it was run and that he should justify it to me. There would be absolutely no point in him explaining the details, I wouldn't understand it. He would be justified in showing how much he knew about running LHC's and telling me to accept it.
It is also unsatisfying because we want to think that God will treat us "fairly" and not use us for his purposes. "We're important and has to treat us like that!"
And Job is vindicated, publicly. God didn't accuse Job even though he didn't explain why he had to suffer.
Quote3) A very literal Deus ex Machina rescues Job here. Is it a satisfying ending? Not to me, to be honest. What of the involvement of Satan? He gets no mention in the coda. Does Yahweh explain things to Job? Not at all. Does Yahweh atone for his evil-doing earlier? Not in the slightest - in fact, he doubles down in the manner of a bully. What of Job's children and servants, murdered earlier in order to cause Job suffering? Simply replaced by new children and servants. This book leaves a lot of theological questions hanging, I think.
Isn't a Deus ex machina an where an author has to get himself out of a bind by introducing an a "god" out of context to save the plot? God is introduced, but he was always part of the plot.
Satan is not significant to the resolution of the plot. God is taking responsibility for what happened.
Does God atone for his evil doing? No. Should he. You'll have to take that up with him.
I don't think the theological questions are left hanging. The answers are:
- God does stuff that we don't understand and that is not necessarily for our benefit: he has other concerns too.
- often the wicked prosper and the good suffer
- often there isn't any obvious meaning to what happens in life.
But they are not necessarily very satisfying.
1) Job has changed his mind here - he'd previously been at great pains to underline how much he comprehended the differences between a human and a god.
so God's argument succeeded?
Quote2) Bit much for the friends to be rebuked like this - is it for not being on their knees at this precise moment? Else it doesn't make much sense - they've been giving Job the line that Yahweh eventually did throughout.
My recollection is that his friends consistently said that
- Job must have been a bad sinner because of all the bad things that had happened to him.
- in life the bad were always punished and the good rewarded
- they ignored Job's arguements to the contrary
As Job said (I think) they were false witnesses.
Gods argument was that he had the right to do what he likes and that Job didn't know enough to criticise him. I get the impression that God was arguing with God man to man so to speak, giving him the opportunity to respond to what God said. I don't see God as a bully here. That he is powerful and scary is just what he is. His depiction of powerful and scary things that are out of man's control was not to intimidate so much as to point out that Job wasn't able to control nature so should just put up with it.
I agree that this is not satisfying for someone that wants to know the reasons why something is the way it is but I think that God's approach was appropriate. An analogy would be if a noob like me went to the director of the LHC and said I was offended about the way it was run and that he should justify it to me. There would be absolutely no point in him explaining the details, I wouldn't understand it. He would be justified in showing how much he knew about running LHC's and telling me to accept it.
It is also unsatisfying because we want to think that God will treat us "fairly" and not use us for his purposes. "We're important and has to treat us like that!"
And Job is vindicated, publicly. God didn't accuse Job even though he didn't explain why he had to suffer.
Quote3) A very literal Deus ex Machina rescues Job here. Is it a satisfying ending? Not to me, to be honest. What of the involvement of Satan? He gets no mention in the coda. Does Yahweh explain things to Job? Not at all. Does Yahweh atone for his evil-doing earlier? Not in the slightest - in fact, he doubles down in the manner of a bully. What of Job's children and servants, murdered earlier in order to cause Job suffering? Simply replaced by new children and servants. This book leaves a lot of theological questions hanging, I think.
Isn't a Deus ex machina an where an author has to get himself out of a bind by introducing an a "god" out of context to save the plot? God is introduced, but he was always part of the plot.
Satan is not significant to the resolution of the plot. God is taking responsibility for what happened.
Does God atone for his evil doing? No. Should he. You'll have to take that up with him.
I don't think the theological questions are left hanging. The answers are:
- God does stuff that we don't understand and that is not necessarily for our benefit: he has other concerns too.
- often the wicked prosper and the good suffer
- often there isn't any obvious meaning to what happens in life.
But they are not necessarily very satisfying.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 12, 2016, 05:45AMYahweh eventually turns up and ticks them all off for not respecting him enough; he restores Job's fortunes twice over
I would change that last line to :
- God arrives:
- convinces Job that he isn't able to run the world and doesn't know enough to critique God
- vindicates Job and restores his fortunes
- doesn't explain why he suffered
- ticks off Job's friends
QuoteBy the by, we passed the halfway points by chapters of both Protestant and Catholic Old Testaments in the Book of Job...
Yay
I would change that last line to :
- God arrives:
- convinces Job that he isn't able to run the world and doesn't know enough to critique God
- vindicates Job and restores his fortunes
- doesn't explain why he suffered
- ticks off Job's friends
QuoteBy the by, we passed the halfway points by chapters of both Protestant and Catholic Old Testaments in the Book of Job...
Yay
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 1 text
Highlights
- A godly person is blessed if he follows the law
Summary
- A godly person is blessed if he follows the law or the Lord and not the advice of sinners and scoffers
- Like a tree planted by water, he will grow and be fruitful
- But the wicked will be judged and perish
Questions and Observations
1) This is poetry now. Hebrew poetry repeats ideas rather than sounds and rythms. The repitition can be either of similar or opposite meaning.
2) Blessed mean under God's care, happy or intrinsically right. I think that this use is intrinsically right. After Job and knowing about David's early life I don't think this is saying that if you follow the Law then you won't suffer.
Highlights
- A godly person is blessed if he follows the law
Summary
- A godly person is blessed if he follows the law or the Lord and not the advice of sinners and scoffers
- Like a tree planted by water, he will grow and be fruitful
- But the wicked will be judged and perish
Questions and Observations
1) This is poetry now. Hebrew poetry repeats ideas rather than sounds and rythms. The repitition can be either of similar or opposite meaning.
2) Blessed mean under God's care, happy or intrinsically right. I think that this use is intrinsically right. After Job and knowing about David's early life I don't think this is saying that if you follow the Law then you won't suffer.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Nov 12, 2016, 11:35PMso God's argument succeeded?
Yep! To my eyes, Job took it from Yahweh where he wouldn't take it from his friends. But see below.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 12, 2016, 11:35PMMy recollection is that his friends consistently said that
- Job must have been a bad sinner because of all the bad things that had happened to him.
- in life the bad were always punished and the good rewarded
- they ignored Job's arguements to the contrary
Yahweh doesn't really explain anything to Job beyond how awesome Yahweh is relative to him, which both Job and Job's friends were saying throughout - his response is actually surprisingly uninformative. Job doesn't learn anything about why all this happened to him. As you say, the insinuations of his friends that he must have behaved badly infuriated him - so I suppose Yahweh's endorsement of the bits he went along with while leaving out the bits he didn't give him no trouble.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 12, 2016, 11:35PMAs Job said (I think) they were false witnesses.
'False witness' is one of those 'insider' terms that doesn't get used by us heathens much. A classic 'false witness' is one who lies - Job's friends weren't lying, were they? They thought that what they were saying was correct. But I see that it can also be taken to mean one who spreads rumours, and perhaps they can be thought to have fallen foul of that kind of error.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 12, 2016, 11:35PMGods argument was that he had the right to do what he likes and that Job didn't know enough to criticise him. I get the impression that God was arguing with God man to man so to speak, giving him the opportunity to respond to what God said. I don't see God as a bully here. That he is powerful and scary is just what he is. His depiction of powerful and scary things that are out of man's control was not to intimidate so much as to point out that Job wasn't able to control nature so should just put up with it.
I agree that this is not satisfying for someone that wants to know the reasons why something is the way it is but I think that God's approach was appropriate. An analogy would be if a noob like me went to the director of the LHC and said I was offended about the way it was run and that he should justify it to me. There would be absolutely no point in him explaining the details, I wouldn't understand it. He would be justified in showing how much he knew about running LHC's and telling me to accept it.
The material difference is that the director-general of CERN has not explicitly chosen to destroy your life. If they had that kind of power, I would absolutely agitate for them to be accountable - wouldn't you? If I was some kind of lowly functionary on the LHC, and the top person decreed that my employment there be terminated, I would absolutely want to know the reason.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 12, 2016, 11:35PMIt is also unsatisfying because we want to think that God will treat us "fairly" and not use us for his purposes. "We're important and has to treat us like that!"
And Job is vindicated, publicly. God didn't accuse Job even though he didn't explain why he had to suffer.
He gets rewarded with worldly things. At no point is he commended.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 12, 2016, 11:35PMIsn't a Deus ex machina an where an author has to get himself out of a bind by introducing an a "god" out of context to save the plot? God is introduced, but he was always part of the plot.
Kind of. Deus ex machina. It's a more general term than that meaning any plot device where an unexpected intervention resolves a problem. Couldn't resist punning on it with an actual god performing the deus role.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 12, 2016, 11:35PMSatan is not significant to the resolution of the plot. God is taking responsibility for what happened.
Does God atone for his evil doing? No. Should he. You'll have to take that up with him.
I guess I'm not going to find out...
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 12, 2016, 11:35PMI don't think the theological questions are left hanging. The answers are:
- God does stuff that we don't understand and that is not necessarily for our benefit: he has other concerns too.
- often the wicked prosper and the good suffer
- often there isn't any obvious meaning to what happens in life.
But they are not necessarily very satisfying.
Seems hangy to me. Hence there being the whole field of theodicy, referenced several times in this portion of the thread already.
Yep! To my eyes, Job took it from Yahweh where he wouldn't take it from his friends. But see below.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 12, 2016, 11:35PMMy recollection is that his friends consistently said that
- Job must have been a bad sinner because of all the bad things that had happened to him.
- in life the bad were always punished and the good rewarded
- they ignored Job's arguements to the contrary
Yahweh doesn't really explain anything to Job beyond how awesome Yahweh is relative to him, which both Job and Job's friends were saying throughout - his response is actually surprisingly uninformative. Job doesn't learn anything about why all this happened to him. As you say, the insinuations of his friends that he must have behaved badly infuriated him - so I suppose Yahweh's endorsement of the bits he went along with while leaving out the bits he didn't give him no trouble.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 12, 2016, 11:35PMAs Job said (I think) they were false witnesses.
'False witness' is one of those 'insider' terms that doesn't get used by us heathens much. A classic 'false witness' is one who lies - Job's friends weren't lying, were they? They thought that what they were saying was correct. But I see that it can also be taken to mean one who spreads rumours, and perhaps they can be thought to have fallen foul of that kind of error.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 12, 2016, 11:35PMGods argument was that he had the right to do what he likes and that Job didn't know enough to criticise him. I get the impression that God was arguing with God man to man so to speak, giving him the opportunity to respond to what God said. I don't see God as a bully here. That he is powerful and scary is just what he is. His depiction of powerful and scary things that are out of man's control was not to intimidate so much as to point out that Job wasn't able to control nature so should just put up with it.
I agree that this is not satisfying for someone that wants to know the reasons why something is the way it is but I think that God's approach was appropriate. An analogy would be if a noob like me went to the director of the LHC and said I was offended about the way it was run and that he should justify it to me. There would be absolutely no point in him explaining the details, I wouldn't understand it. He would be justified in showing how much he knew about running LHC's and telling me to accept it.
The material difference is that the director-general of CERN has not explicitly chosen to destroy your life. If they had that kind of power, I would absolutely agitate for them to be accountable - wouldn't you? If I was some kind of lowly functionary on the LHC, and the top person decreed that my employment there be terminated, I would absolutely want to know the reason.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 12, 2016, 11:35PMIt is also unsatisfying because we want to think that God will treat us "fairly" and not use us for his purposes. "We're important and has to treat us like that!"
And Job is vindicated, publicly. God didn't accuse Job even though he didn't explain why he had to suffer.
He gets rewarded with worldly things. At no point is he commended.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 12, 2016, 11:35PMIsn't a Deus ex machina an where an author has to get himself out of a bind by introducing an a "god" out of context to save the plot? God is introduced, but he was always part of the plot.
Kind of. Deus ex machina. It's a more general term than that meaning any plot device where an unexpected intervention resolves a problem. Couldn't resist punning on it with an actual god performing the deus role.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 12, 2016, 11:35PMSatan is not significant to the resolution of the plot. God is taking responsibility for what happened.
Does God atone for his evil doing? No. Should he. You'll have to take that up with him.
I guess I'm not going to find out...
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 12, 2016, 11:35PMI don't think the theological questions are left hanging. The answers are:
- God does stuff that we don't understand and that is not necessarily for our benefit: he has other concerns too.
- often the wicked prosper and the good suffer
- often there isn't any obvious meaning to what happens in life.
But they are not necessarily very satisfying.
Seems hangy to me. Hence there being the whole field of theodicy, referenced several times in this portion of the thread already.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Psalm 2 text
Highlights
- The chosen people will eventually overcome everyone else
Summary
- Worldly powers fight amongst themselves
- Yahweh laughs at the pointlessness of it all
- He has given his blessing to the author's people, who he will guide to conquer them all
Questions and Observations
1) I have been wondering how well our standard format will deal with the Psalms. Let's find out!
2) I read that the first half of the Psalms or so are attributed to King David - a military hero could write like this.
Highlights
- The chosen people will eventually overcome everyone else
Summary
- Worldly powers fight amongst themselves
- Yahweh laughs at the pointlessness of it all
- He has given his blessing to the author's people, who he will guide to conquer them all
Questions and Observations
1) I have been wondering how well our standard format will deal with the Psalms. Let's find out!
2) I read that the first half of the Psalms or so are attributed to King David - a military hero could write like this.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 13, 2016, 12:40AMThe material difference is that the director-general of CERN has not explicitly chosen to destroy your life.
What about all those micro black-holes that were going to appear in the LHC and swallow the earth. Pretty life destroying to me.
All we got was trust me I know the maths - it won't happen
QuoteHe gets rewarded with worldly things. At no point is he commended.
In v 7 and 8 God says to the friends "For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has" That sounds like a commendation to me.
QuoteI guess I'm not going to find out...
But I know you will.
What about all those micro black-holes that were going to appear in the LHC and swallow the earth. Pretty life destroying to me.
All we got was trust me I know the maths - it won't happen
QuoteHe gets rewarded with worldly things. At no point is he commended.
In v 7 and 8 God says to the friends "For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has" That sounds like a commendation to me.
QuoteI guess I'm not going to find out...
But I know you will.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 13, 2016, 12:48AM1) I have been wondering how well our standard format will deal with the Psalms. Let's find out!
Here we go.
Quote2) I read that the first half of the Psalms or so are attributed to King David - a military hero could write like this.
David initially came to Saul's attention as a singer who could soothe his troubled mind. 1 Samuel 16:18 One of the young men answered, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, who is skillful in playing, a man of valor, a man of war, prudent in speech, and a man of good presence, and the Lord is with him.
Here we go.
Quote2) I read that the first half of the Psalms or so are attributed to King David - a military hero could write like this.
David initially came to Saul's attention as a singer who could soothe his troubled mind. 1 Samuel 16:18 One of the young men answered, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, who is skillful in playing, a man of valor, a man of war, prudent in speech, and a man of good presence, and the Lord is with him.
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 3 text
Highlights
- David trusts in God
Summary
- David is worried about his enemies, many people are saying that he is doomed
- But David prays to God who tells him that he will protect him
- David is reassured and relaxes
- David prays that his enemies will be defeated because the Lord saves.
Questions and Observations
1) Selah: may be a musical direction. Its interresting that when the septuagint was written they didn't know what it meant either, which indicates to me that the Psalms with Selah in were not recent at that time.
Highlights
- David trusts in God
Summary
- David is worried about his enemies, many people are saying that he is doomed
- But David prays to God who tells him that he will protect him
- David is reassured and relaxes
- David prays that his enemies will be defeated because the Lord saves.
Questions and Observations
1) Selah: may be a musical direction. Its interresting that when the septuagint was written they didn't know what it meant either, which indicates to me that the Psalms with Selah in were not recent at that time.
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ttf_drizabone
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Psalm 4 text
Highlights
- David prays when he's worried for his life
Summary
- David prays because he's in distress
- He know's that the Lord will hear him
- He calls for trust in God
- So he can rest because the Lord keeps him safe
Questions and Observations
1) This and the previous Psalm seem to have been written for camp at night when the soldiers were worried about the enemy. This is possibly written on the second night when he's fleeing from Absalom.
Highlights
- David prays when he's worried for his life
Summary
- David prays because he's in distress
- He know's that the Lord will hear him
- He calls for trust in God
- So he can rest because the Lord keeps him safe
Questions and Observations
1) This and the previous Psalm seem to have been written for camp at night when the soldiers were worried about the enemy. This is possibly written on the second night when he's fleeing from Absalom.
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ttf_drizabone
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Psalm 5 text
Highlights
- David prays when he's worried for his life
Summary
- David is again in distress and so prays to God and watches for an answer
- God hates the wicked: the bloodthirsty and deceitful
- But David is confident that he is on the Lords side
- The bad guys are really bad and they will be punished
- But the good guys will take refuge in God and he will bless them
Questions and Observations
1) David is very into emotional stuff song writer. Things are morally black and white too. The good are good and the bad are his enemies and are really bad.
2) interesting that v6 pretty much describes David in his dealings with Uriah
3) the standard format seems to be working
Highlights
- David prays when he's worried for his life
Summary
- David is again in distress and so prays to God and watches for an answer
- God hates the wicked: the bloodthirsty and deceitful
- But David is confident that he is on the Lords side
- The bad guys are really bad and they will be punished
- But the good guys will take refuge in God and he will bless them
Questions and Observations
1) David is very into emotional stuff song writer. Things are morally black and white too. The good are good and the bad are his enemies and are really bad.
2) interesting that v6 pretty much describes David in his dealings with Uriah
3) the standard format seems to be working
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ttf_drizabone
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Psalm 6 text
Highlights
- David prays when he's worried for his life, again
Summary
- David asks God not to rebuke him but to be gracious to him
- David asks for salvation based on God's love for him
- He's worn out with his groaning
- David tells the bad guys to go away because the Lord has heard his request
Questions and Observations
1) So pretty much the same theme as the others so will only point out the differences.
2) David seems to have done something wrong because God is angry with him. So David asks for mercy not because he deserves it but because he knows that God loves him
3) He is confident that God has heard his prayers so he is positive that things will turn out all right.
Highlights
- David prays when he's worried for his life, again
Summary
- David asks God not to rebuke him but to be gracious to him
- David asks for salvation based on God's love for him
- He's worn out with his groaning
- David tells the bad guys to go away because the Lord has heard his request
Questions and Observations
1) So pretty much the same theme as the others so will only point out the differences.
2) David seems to have done something wrong because God is angry with him. So David asks for mercy not because he deserves it but because he knows that God loves him
3) He is confident that God has heard his prayers so he is positive that things will turn out all right.
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ttf_MoominDave
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 13, 2016, 01:22AMWhat about all those micro black-holes that were going to appear in the LHC and swallow the earth. Pretty life destroying to me.
All we got was trust me I know the maths - it won't happen
So - I'm hoping, anyhow! - you're mostly joking here. If a bunch of newspaper propagandist provocateurs start spreading rumours that playing the trombone will cause mini black holes to destroy the universe, that doesn't mean that they're doing anything other than talking out of their botty-holes in an attempt to make money out of frightening people while not caring about either those that they are frightening or those that they are inciting the frightened against. Same thing here.
Particularly in light of the political events of this year, I'm actually starting to think that this kind of media behaviour is having profoundly dangerous effects on our society. It creates a climate where those who have fought hard to obtain new knowledge are automatically distrusted as 'other', and where divisive and categorically unhelpful views are able to thrive. A place where "my ignorance is as good as your knowledge", with all the problems that entails - to pick perhaps the most egregious example, climate change denial in the face of overwhelming evidence and the possibility that the change will force itself on us in the lifetimes of people now living.
But all that's several whole other, huge, subjects...
Edit: And everyone got rather more than "Trust me, I know the maths". They already had access to the papers that demonstrated that it was just scaremongering. But of course people preferred to read the scary simple stories rather than bother to learn the knowledge required to verify things.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 13, 2016, 01:22AMBut I know you will.
Alas, if I ever find myself in the position of finding this out, I suspect pressing personal questions will be occupying my mind ahead of anything else...
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 13, 2016, 01:33AMHere we go.
Wheeeee!
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 13, 2016, 01:33AMDavid initially came to Saul's attention as a singer who could soothe his troubled mind. 1 Samuel 16:18 One of the young men answered, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, who is skillful in playing, a man of valor, a man of war, prudent in speech, and a man of good presence, and the Lord is with him.
I didn't mean that a military man couldn't be a poet (not sure from your response if you've heard that from my post?) - rather I meant that the focus on national triumph to come seemed like a preoccupation of a mind that enjoyed matters military.
All we got was trust me I know the maths - it won't happen
So - I'm hoping, anyhow! - you're mostly joking here. If a bunch of newspaper propagandist provocateurs start spreading rumours that playing the trombone will cause mini black holes to destroy the universe, that doesn't mean that they're doing anything other than talking out of their botty-holes in an attempt to make money out of frightening people while not caring about either those that they are frightening or those that they are inciting the frightened against. Same thing here.
Particularly in light of the political events of this year, I'm actually starting to think that this kind of media behaviour is having profoundly dangerous effects on our society. It creates a climate where those who have fought hard to obtain new knowledge are automatically distrusted as 'other', and where divisive and categorically unhelpful views are able to thrive. A place where "my ignorance is as good as your knowledge", with all the problems that entails - to pick perhaps the most egregious example, climate change denial in the face of overwhelming evidence and the possibility that the change will force itself on us in the lifetimes of people now living.
But all that's several whole other, huge, subjects...
Edit: And everyone got rather more than "Trust me, I know the maths". They already had access to the papers that demonstrated that it was just scaremongering. But of course people preferred to read the scary simple stories rather than bother to learn the knowledge required to verify things.
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 13, 2016, 01:22AMBut I know you will.
Alas, if I ever find myself in the position of finding this out, I suspect pressing personal questions will be occupying my mind ahead of anything else...
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 13, 2016, 01:33AMHere we go.
Wheeeee!
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 13, 2016, 01:33AMDavid initially came to Saul's attention as a singer who could soothe his troubled mind. 1 Samuel 16:18 One of the young men answered, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, who is skillful in playing, a man of valor, a man of war, prudent in speech, and a man of good presence, and the Lord is with him.
I didn't mean that a military man couldn't be a poet (not sure from your response if you've heard that from my post?) - rather I meant that the focus on national triumph to come seemed like a preoccupation of a mind that enjoyed matters military.