2 Chronicles 5 text
Highlights
- the temple is finished
Summary
- Solomon finished the temple and brought all the vessels and silver and gold that David had dedicated into the temple.
- Solomon gathers all the men of Israel to dedicate the temple at the feast in the seventh month.
- the priests brought in the ark, the tent and the holy vessels.
- there were so many sheep and oxen sacrificed that they couldn't be counted.
- at the end the "glory of the Lord" filled the house.
Questions and Observations
1) notice the joint roles of Solomon and David in v1. Aren't they great.
2) I wonder which feast is referenced in v3 as the "feast in the 7th month" when they dedicated the temple. It could have been "trumpets", "atonement" or "tabernacle"
3) Given that there were "uncountable" sheep and oxen sacrificed, ie had their throats cut and then burnt, it would have been really bloody, smelly and smokey. In our culture this would be considered pretty disgusting - but then, sin and its consequences can be that too.
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
-
ttf_timothy42b
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 08:48PM
3) Given that there were "uncountable" sheep and oxen sacrificed, ie had their throats cut and then [s]burnt[/s] grilled,
Fixed that for you. I'm pretty sure that any burning was symbolic (a little hair onto the coals) and the meat was actually cooked and shared. Of course the priest class got first choices.
3) Given that there were "uncountable" sheep and oxen sacrificed, ie had their throats cut and then [s]burnt[/s] grilled,
Fixed that for you. I'm pretty sure that any burning was symbolic (a little hair onto the coals) and the meat was actually cooked and shared. Of course the priest class got first choices.
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 04:03PMMy 1 Chronicles Notes
I think of 1 Chronicles as really just the first half of a whole. So my I see my sumnmary of 1 Chronicles as an incomplete summary of "Chronicles" and I expect it will be modified as a get an understanding of the second half of the book.
It was originally a single book, separated in the Septuagint.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 04:03PMSo here are my impressions so far:
Chronicles
- was written after the return of the Judah from exile :
- "My commentary says : "Chronicles looks to the past to give hope for the future. The postexilic Israelites were yearning for a king to rule and guide them as the people of God. They were through with kings who had a half-hearted love of God, the kind of kingship that helped land them in Babylonian exile to begin with. They wanted a new kind of king, one who fits the ideal picture of what a king of Israel should really be like.
I find it interesting that the exile seems to be what narrowed their worship focus down to Yahweh. It's quite striking - pre-exile it was commonplace for other gods to be worshipped, but now the monotheistic Yahweh grouping has the upper hand. Or at least, so it seems to me at the moment; I'm keenly aware that we have a lot of history yet to go through from here.
What factors led to Yahweh gaining the ascendancy in this traumatic period?
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 04:03PMThis is why the Chronicler portrays the reigns of David and Solomon the way he does: to speak to that future hope." That seems a fair comment.
- See more at: http://biologos.org/blogs/archive/the-problem-with-literalism-chronicles-3#sthash.gBR3wakB.dpuf
- in Jewish canon it is the last book, nowhere near Samuel and Kings
My initial thought is to wonder what on earth Chronicles was doing at the end, along with the general difficulty of classifying apparently duplicate material, and it seems that I'm not entirely alone in that - I read that the authors of the Septuagint gave it a name that means "The things left over"...
Where it is does seem a more natural home for it, despite the apparent paradox of following the narrative of Samuel/Kings with a bowdlerised and sometimes contradictory revisit of the same material.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 04:03PM- retelling of history of monarchy that claims, despite experiencing Gods punishment through exile, that the God of Israels ancestors (those living before the exile) is still with Gods people after the exile. Whatever else may have changed, Yahweh is still Israels God.
But how much was he Israel/Judah's chosen God before the exile? As mentioned above.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 08:04PM2 Chronicles 2 text
Compare 1 Kings 5
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 08:04PMSolomon takes a new census of the foreign workers.
Yahweh doesn't mind this on this occasion. Guess David was just unlucky.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 08:15PM2 Chronicles 3 text
Compare 1 Kings 6
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 08:28PM2 Chronicles 4 text
Compare 1 Kings 7
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 08:48PM2 Chronicles 5 text
Compare 1 Kings 8
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 08:48PM1) notice the joint roles of Solomon and David in v1. Aren't they great.
All very neat. The Chronicler likes things to be neat, it seems to me.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 08:48PM2) I wonder which feast is referenced in v3 as the "feast in the 7th month" when they dedicated the temple. It could have been "trumpets", "atonement" or "tabernacle"
Kings gives us no more as to which feast, but intriguingly does specify "at the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month"; intriguing because this is an older name for the month.
I can't see it being Yom Kippur; that's more of a solemn than a glorious occasion, I think?
I think of 1 Chronicles as really just the first half of a whole. So my I see my sumnmary of 1 Chronicles as an incomplete summary of "Chronicles" and I expect it will be modified as a get an understanding of the second half of the book.
It was originally a single book, separated in the Septuagint.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 04:03PMSo here are my impressions so far:
Chronicles
- was written after the return of the Judah from exile :
- "My commentary says : "Chronicles looks to the past to give hope for the future. The postexilic Israelites were yearning for a king to rule and guide them as the people of God. They were through with kings who had a half-hearted love of God, the kind of kingship that helped land them in Babylonian exile to begin with. They wanted a new kind of king, one who fits the ideal picture of what a king of Israel should really be like.
I find it interesting that the exile seems to be what narrowed their worship focus down to Yahweh. It's quite striking - pre-exile it was commonplace for other gods to be worshipped, but now the monotheistic Yahweh grouping has the upper hand. Or at least, so it seems to me at the moment; I'm keenly aware that we have a lot of history yet to go through from here.
What factors led to Yahweh gaining the ascendancy in this traumatic period?
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 04:03PMThis is why the Chronicler portrays the reigns of David and Solomon the way he does: to speak to that future hope." That seems a fair comment.
- See more at: http://biologos.org/blogs/archive/the-problem-with-literalism-chronicles-3#sthash.gBR3wakB.dpuf
- in Jewish canon it is the last book, nowhere near Samuel and Kings
My initial thought is to wonder what on earth Chronicles was doing at the end, along with the general difficulty of classifying apparently duplicate material, and it seems that I'm not entirely alone in that - I read that the authors of the Septuagint gave it a name that means "The things left over"...
Where it is does seem a more natural home for it, despite the apparent paradox of following the narrative of Samuel/Kings with a bowdlerised and sometimes contradictory revisit of the same material.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 04:03PM- retelling of history of monarchy that claims, despite experiencing Gods punishment through exile, that the God of Israels ancestors (those living before the exile) is still with Gods people after the exile. Whatever else may have changed, Yahweh is still Israels God.
But how much was he Israel/Judah's chosen God before the exile? As mentioned above.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 08:04PM2 Chronicles 2 text
Compare 1 Kings 5
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 08:04PMSolomon takes a new census of the foreign workers.
Yahweh doesn't mind this on this occasion. Guess David was just unlucky.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 08:15PM2 Chronicles 3 text
Compare 1 Kings 6
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 08:28PM2 Chronicles 4 text
Compare 1 Kings 7
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 08:48PM2 Chronicles 5 text
Compare 1 Kings 8
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 08:48PM1) notice the joint roles of Solomon and David in v1. Aren't they great.
All very neat. The Chronicler likes things to be neat, it seems to me.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 28, 2016, 08:48PM2) I wonder which feast is referenced in v3 as the "feast in the 7th month" when they dedicated the temple. It could have been "trumpets", "atonement" or "tabernacle"
Kings gives us no more as to which feast, but intriguingly does specify "at the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month"; intriguing because this is an older name for the month.
I can't see it being Yom Kippur; that's more of a solemn than a glorious occasion, I think?
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 6 text; compare 1 Kings 8
Highlights
- Solomon performs a ceremony before the new temple
Summary
- "All Israel" is gathered.
- Solomon talks to them of how this is David's promise fulfilled and a sign of Yahweh's favour.
- He lists the expected deal between Yahweh and Israel; Israel behaves = Yahweh being nice.
Questions and Observations
1) Solomon's prayer is interesting. He seems to be listing the ways in which Israel expects to Yahweh to behave in return for their loyalty. Has he not read his history books? Yahweh is not an easily predictable force as represented.
Highlights
- Solomon performs a ceremony before the new temple
Summary
- "All Israel" is gathered.
- Solomon talks to them of how this is David's promise fulfilled and a sign of Yahweh's favour.
- He lists the expected deal between Yahweh and Israel; Israel behaves = Yahweh being nice.
Questions and Observations
1) Solomon's prayer is interesting. He seems to be listing the ways in which Israel expects to Yahweh to behave in return for their loyalty. Has he not read his history books? Yahweh is not an easily predictable force as represented.
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: MoominDave on Aug 29, 2016, 08:37AM1) Solomon's prayer is interesting. He seems to be listing the ways in which Israel expects to Yahweh to behave in return for their loyalty. Has he not read his history books? Yahweh is not an easily predictable force as represented.
In my understanding Solomon is being presented as an ideal king and so I would expect that he would know and understand the 'history books' and be basing his requests on that history and specifically on the covenant that God made with Israel.
In v14 Solomon starts his prayer reminding God of his faithfulness to his covenant and his steadfast love to his children who are faithful. So Solomon is going back to the history books and basing his requests on the covenant - we are your covenant people, you punish us for disobeying you, have mercy on us when we repent, as you said you would.
In my understanding Solomon is being presented as an ideal king and so I would expect that he would know and understand the 'history books' and be basing his requests on that history and specifically on the covenant that God made with Israel.
In v14 Solomon starts his prayer reminding God of his faithfulness to his covenant and his steadfast love to his children who are faithful. So Solomon is going back to the history books and basing his requests on the covenant - we are your covenant people, you punish us for disobeying you, have mercy on us when we repent, as you said you would.
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: MoominDave on Aug 29, 2016, 08:27AMI find it interesting that the exile seems to be what narrowed their worship focus down to Yahweh. It's quite striking - pre-exile it was commonplace for other gods to be worshipped, but now the monotheistic Yahweh grouping has the upper hand. Or at least, so it seems to me at the moment; I'm keenly aware that we have a lot of history yet to go through from here.
What factors led to Yahweh gaining the ascendancy in this traumatic period?
I too have noticed this (although I would characterize it slightly differently) and wonder why it is so.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Babylonian_Exile has a bit to say on the reasons. (I only offer these as interesting ideas, not as something I am convinced of)
"At the same time, the Jews' exposure to Babylonian literature and traditions served to broaden their viewpoint to include new concepts formerly not strongly evident in the literature of ancient Israel, among them:
- The concept of Satan as God's adversary
- The idea of an angelic hierarchy under God rather than the more ancient idea of an assembly of the gods with - Yahweh/Elohim as the supreme deity
- The idea of absolute monotheism, as opposed to the idea that Yahweh was the special god of Israel, but not necessarily the only God
- The related idea of universalism: that not only the Jews, but all people, must honor God
The Jews were also apparently influenced by the wisdom literature of Babylon, expressing a less black-and-white approach to the concept of spiritual wisdomas expressed for example in the Book of Proverbs with its promises of blessings to righteous and suffering to the wicked. The newer type of wisdom literature expressed a more nuanced and realistic viewpoint, some might even say skeptical, as exemplified by Ecclesiastes and Job.
Finally, some scholars opine that the Babylonian tradition may even have influenced the origin story of Genesis 1, which mythologists believe to be a reworking of the Babylonian cosmology portrayed in the Enuma Elish."
QuoteBut how much was he Israel/Judah's chosen God before the exile? As mentioned above.
I agree that many in Israel had rejected God. But I think that the chronicler is offering the other perspective as primary: that it was God who had chosen Israel and they were still his people.
Quote Yahweh doesn't mind this on this occasion. Guess David was just unlucky.
I think the obejects of the census were significantly different. David counted fighting men, Solomon counted foreign workers. But I'm not certain why David's census was a problem.
What factors led to Yahweh gaining the ascendancy in this traumatic period?
I too have noticed this (although I would characterize it slightly differently) and wonder why it is so.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Babylonian_Exile has a bit to say on the reasons. (I only offer these as interesting ideas, not as something I am convinced of)
"At the same time, the Jews' exposure to Babylonian literature and traditions served to broaden their viewpoint to include new concepts formerly not strongly evident in the literature of ancient Israel, among them:
- The concept of Satan as God's adversary
- The idea of an angelic hierarchy under God rather than the more ancient idea of an assembly of the gods with - Yahweh/Elohim as the supreme deity
- The idea of absolute monotheism, as opposed to the idea that Yahweh was the special god of Israel, but not necessarily the only God
- The related idea of universalism: that not only the Jews, but all people, must honor God
The Jews were also apparently influenced by the wisdom literature of Babylon, expressing a less black-and-white approach to the concept of spiritual wisdomas expressed for example in the Book of Proverbs with its promises of blessings to righteous and suffering to the wicked. The newer type of wisdom literature expressed a more nuanced and realistic viewpoint, some might even say skeptical, as exemplified by Ecclesiastes and Job.
Finally, some scholars opine that the Babylonian tradition may even have influenced the origin story of Genesis 1, which mythologists believe to be a reworking of the Babylonian cosmology portrayed in the Enuma Elish."
QuoteBut how much was he Israel/Judah's chosen God before the exile? As mentioned above.
I agree that many in Israel had rejected God. But I think that the chronicler is offering the other perspective as primary: that it was God who had chosen Israel and they were still his people.
Quote Yahweh doesn't mind this on this occasion. Guess David was just unlucky.
I think the obejects of the census were significantly different. David counted fighting men, Solomon counted foreign workers. But I'm not certain why David's census was a problem.
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 29, 2016, 06:16PMI too have noticed this (although I would characterize it slightly differently) and wonder why it is so.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Babylonian_Exile has a bit to say on the reasons. (I only offer these as interesting ideas, not as something I am convinced of)
Good link, this is fascinating. And I am glad to learn that we will be returning in detail to this period in various of the prophet books.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 29, 2016, 06:16PM"At the same time, the Jews' exposure to Babylonian literature and traditions served to broaden their viewpoint to include new concepts formerly not strongly evident in the literature of ancient Israel, among them:
- The concept of Satan as God's adversary
It is interesting that at the moment of conversion to monotheism, the religion acquires a new god-level figure. Kind of polytheism by the back door - a god figure that it is forbidden to worship.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 29, 2016, 06:16PM- The idea of an angelic hierarchy under God rather than the more ancient idea of an assembly of the gods with - Yahweh/Elohim as the supreme deity
To my mind, this is also a watered-down version of polytheism - these are also entities that exist with God rather than us, even if they are subservient to him and not to be worshipped.
Angels have been rare visitors to the story thus far, though much more often than Satan, who has been absent. But they have been involved - in various places the "Angel of the Lord" has performed god-type actions on humans.
I don't think that very often, if at all barring the example to follow, have they been given a specific status in what's known as the angelic hierarchy? One glaring exception is in Genesis 3, where cherubs are set to guard the gate of Eden. If the angelic hierarchy came from the Babylonian exile, this is an anachronism, and does suggest exilic input to early Genesis, as mentioned below. It's interesting and suggestive that the etymology of the word shows a direct equivalent in Akkadian.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 29, 2016, 06:16PM- The idea of absolute monotheism, as opposed to the idea that Yahweh was the special god of Israel, but not necessarily the only God
Yes, this is the point that is jumping out at the moment. So far we've read of Yahweh competing with various other gods for human favour (Moloch, Baal, etc.). But this is the point at which that paradigm shifts to one that we clearly recognise as being that of modern Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. It isn't there yet, but the table has been laid. It would be nice to get some more feeling for how and why this particular shift occurred - perhaps we will learn more in the prophets?
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 29, 2016, 06:16PM- The related idea of universalism: that not only the Jews, but all people, must honor God
This is one key to why we are sitting here so much later so far away discussing what was at the time a distinctly obscure and marginal corner of the religious world. Without the belief that this religion was suitable for all, there could have been no worldwide Christian expansion. It is interesting that it took a breakaway sect to see the potential of this - Judaism has never been interested in gaining wide traction.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 29, 2016, 06:16PMThe Jews were also apparently influenced by the wisdom literature of Babylon, expressing a less black-and-white approach to the concept of spiritual wisdomas expressed for example in the Book of Proverbs with its promises of blessings to righteous and suffering to the wicked. The newer type of wisdom literature expressed a more nuanced and realistic viewpoint, some might even say skeptical, as exemplified by Ecclesiastes and Job.
Looking forward to this, once we get over the enormous hump of Psalms... But I'm being facetious - I suspect Psalms is this stuff too?
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 29, 2016, 06:16PMFinally, some scholars opine that the Babylonian tradition may even have influenced the origin story of Genesis 1, which mythologists believe to be a reworking of the Babylonian cosmology portrayed in the Enuma Elish."
John mentioned the Enuma Elish right at the beginning of the thread. At the time I didn't fully understand the significance of his doing so, suspecting some relation due to geographic proximity, but not imagining that we would be so fortunate as to have a specific mechanism shown to us. The Enuma Elish can be read online here; a cursory flick-through (it's a lot longer than a Biblical chapter) indicates that there is a lot of preparatory narrative action in it not found in Genesis (gods fighting), and that the points of coincidence require a thorough read of the material to extract. The order of creation seems broadly to be covered between the final few lines of the fourth tablet and the fifth and sixth tablets. There are quite a few lines given as missing - but then this is from a 1902 translation for copyright reasons, so perhaps more complete versions have been discovered in the years since? A list of points of similarity is given here.
Googling slightly further, I see that my initial reactions of a year ago were actually not an unreasonable conclusion. We know that these two (and other) creation stories were current in the ancient Middle East in broadly the same time span. It would seem plausible for them all to have informed each other in parallel over long periods of time. It would also seem plausible for the Israelite creation tradition to have been reshaped to include elements of the Babylonian tradition during their long exile when their culture was made subservient. But it was all such a very long time ago, and certainty eludes...
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Babylonian_Exile has a bit to say on the reasons. (I only offer these as interesting ideas, not as something I am convinced of)
Good link, this is fascinating. And I am glad to learn that we will be returning in detail to this period in various of the prophet books.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 29, 2016, 06:16PM"At the same time, the Jews' exposure to Babylonian literature and traditions served to broaden their viewpoint to include new concepts formerly not strongly evident in the literature of ancient Israel, among them:
- The concept of Satan as God's adversary
It is interesting that at the moment of conversion to monotheism, the religion acquires a new god-level figure. Kind of polytheism by the back door - a god figure that it is forbidden to worship.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 29, 2016, 06:16PM- The idea of an angelic hierarchy under God rather than the more ancient idea of an assembly of the gods with - Yahweh/Elohim as the supreme deity
To my mind, this is also a watered-down version of polytheism - these are also entities that exist with God rather than us, even if they are subservient to him and not to be worshipped.
Angels have been rare visitors to the story thus far, though much more often than Satan, who has been absent. But they have been involved - in various places the "Angel of the Lord" has performed god-type actions on humans.
I don't think that very often, if at all barring the example to follow, have they been given a specific status in what's known as the angelic hierarchy? One glaring exception is in Genesis 3, where cherubs are set to guard the gate of Eden. If the angelic hierarchy came from the Babylonian exile, this is an anachronism, and does suggest exilic input to early Genesis, as mentioned below. It's interesting and suggestive that the etymology of the word shows a direct equivalent in Akkadian.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 29, 2016, 06:16PM- The idea of absolute monotheism, as opposed to the idea that Yahweh was the special god of Israel, but not necessarily the only God
Yes, this is the point that is jumping out at the moment. So far we've read of Yahweh competing with various other gods for human favour (Moloch, Baal, etc.). But this is the point at which that paradigm shifts to one that we clearly recognise as being that of modern Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. It isn't there yet, but the table has been laid. It would be nice to get some more feeling for how and why this particular shift occurred - perhaps we will learn more in the prophets?
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 29, 2016, 06:16PM- The related idea of universalism: that not only the Jews, but all people, must honor God
This is one key to why we are sitting here so much later so far away discussing what was at the time a distinctly obscure and marginal corner of the religious world. Without the belief that this religion was suitable for all, there could have been no worldwide Christian expansion. It is interesting that it took a breakaway sect to see the potential of this - Judaism has never been interested in gaining wide traction.
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 29, 2016, 06:16PMThe Jews were also apparently influenced by the wisdom literature of Babylon, expressing a less black-and-white approach to the concept of spiritual wisdomas expressed for example in the Book of Proverbs with its promises of blessings to righteous and suffering to the wicked. The newer type of wisdom literature expressed a more nuanced and realistic viewpoint, some might even say skeptical, as exemplified by Ecclesiastes and Job.
Looking forward to this, once we get over the enormous hump of Psalms... But I'm being facetious - I suspect Psalms is this stuff too?
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 29, 2016, 06:16PMFinally, some scholars opine that the Babylonian tradition may even have influenced the origin story of Genesis 1, which mythologists believe to be a reworking of the Babylonian cosmology portrayed in the Enuma Elish."
John mentioned the Enuma Elish right at the beginning of the thread. At the time I didn't fully understand the significance of his doing so, suspecting some relation due to geographic proximity, but not imagining that we would be so fortunate as to have a specific mechanism shown to us. The Enuma Elish can be read online here; a cursory flick-through (it's a lot longer than a Biblical chapter) indicates that there is a lot of preparatory narrative action in it not found in Genesis (gods fighting), and that the points of coincidence require a thorough read of the material to extract. The order of creation seems broadly to be covered between the final few lines of the fourth tablet and the fifth and sixth tablets. There are quite a few lines given as missing - but then this is from a 1902 translation for copyright reasons, so perhaps more complete versions have been discovered in the years since? A list of points of similarity is given here.
Googling slightly further, I see that my initial reactions of a year ago were actually not an unreasonable conclusion. We know that these two (and other) creation stories were current in the ancient Middle East in broadly the same time span. It would seem plausible for them all to have informed each other in parallel over long periods of time. It would also seem plausible for the Israelite creation tradition to have been reshaped to include elements of the Babylonian tradition during their long exile when their culture was made subservient. But it was all such a very long time ago, and certainty eludes...
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 7 text; compare 1 Kings 8:62-9:9
Highlights
- Temple dedication
Summary
- Solomon's prayer offerings are consumed by fire from heaven
- All make offerings to dedicate the new temple
- Yahweh appears to Solomon and gives his assent to the terms of his prayer in Chapter 6
Questions and Observations
1) We've seen this "fire from heaven" thing quite a lot now. What do the Christians make of it? I wonder if maybe some kind of lens was used? Or whether it's just a poetic turn of phrase to describe the priest setting fire to it?
2) Even the enormous altar that Solomon had made was too small for the amount of sacrificing that they were making, so they had to use the floor.
3) Martin earlier (Chapter 5) asked which of the three feasts of the seventh month was being referred to in this section. This chapter tells us that they feasted 7 days, ending on the 23rd day of the 7th month - so I conclude that it was the Feast of Booths/Tabernacles (aka Sukkot) that was being referred to.
Highlights
- Temple dedication
Summary
- Solomon's prayer offerings are consumed by fire from heaven
- All make offerings to dedicate the new temple
- Yahweh appears to Solomon and gives his assent to the terms of his prayer in Chapter 6
Questions and Observations
1) We've seen this "fire from heaven" thing quite a lot now. What do the Christians make of it? I wonder if maybe some kind of lens was used? Or whether it's just a poetic turn of phrase to describe the priest setting fire to it?
2) Even the enormous altar that Solomon had made was too small for the amount of sacrificing that they were making, so they had to use the floor.
3) Martin earlier (Chapter 5) asked which of the three feasts of the seventh month was being referred to in this section. This chapter tells us that they feasted 7 days, ending on the 23rd day of the 7th month - so I conclude that it was the Feast of Booths/Tabernacles (aka Sukkot) that was being referred to.
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: MoominDave on Aug 30, 2016, 03:03AM1) We've seen this "fire from heaven" thing quite a lot now. What do the Christians make of it? I wonder if maybe some kind of lens was used? Or whether it's just a poetic turn of phrase to describe the priest setting fire to it?
I don't claim to speak for 'the Christians' but I think:
- "quite a lot" was actually a few times since Moses I think. So its still pretty special even with looking forward to Elijah which hasn't happened yet. In this case its accompanying God moving in to his house and that would have been pretty special and it was accompanied by some sort of manifestation of his "glory" which filled the house. I'm not exactly sure what this looked like, but Hollywood does pretty good impressions. I imagine arcing electicity, glowing clouds and general ominousness. But who knows.
- But God is not really localised (he's everywhere) so I think his presence in the temple was probably symbolic, even if it was concentrated a bit at that location. This is me being speculative.
- So the fire from heaven may also have been symbolic, but I tend to prefer real things rather than symbolic so I think the fire would have been real, more like a big flame thrower than light concentrated by lenses.
Quote 2) Even the enormous altar that Solomon had made was too small for the amount of sacrificing that they were making, so they had to use the floor.
lots of blood and guts - but lots of grilled steak too.
Quote 3) Martin earlier (Chapter 5) asked which of the three feasts of the seventh month was being referred to in this section. This chapter tells us that they feasted 7 days, ending on the 23rd day of the 7th month - so I conclude that it was the Feast of Booths/Tabernacles (aka Sukkot) that was being referred to.
That clears that up, thanks
I don't claim to speak for 'the Christians' but I think:
- "quite a lot" was actually a few times since Moses I think. So its still pretty special even with looking forward to Elijah which hasn't happened yet. In this case its accompanying God moving in to his house and that would have been pretty special and it was accompanied by some sort of manifestation of his "glory" which filled the house. I'm not exactly sure what this looked like, but Hollywood does pretty good impressions. I imagine arcing electicity, glowing clouds and general ominousness. But who knows.
- But God is not really localised (he's everywhere) so I think his presence in the temple was probably symbolic, even if it was concentrated a bit at that location. This is me being speculative.
- So the fire from heaven may also have been symbolic, but I tend to prefer real things rather than symbolic so I think the fire would have been real, more like a big flame thrower than light concentrated by lenses.
Quote 2) Even the enormous altar that Solomon had made was too small for the amount of sacrificing that they were making, so they had to use the floor.
lots of blood and guts - but lots of grilled steak too.
Quote 3) Martin earlier (Chapter 5) asked which of the three feasts of the seventh month was being referred to in this section. This chapter tells us that they feasted 7 days, ending on the 23rd day of the 7th month - so I conclude that it was the Feast of Booths/Tabernacles (aka Sukkot) that was being referred to.
That clears that up, thanks
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 8 text
2 Chronicles 9 text
Highlights
- Solomon the builder. Impressing everyone.
Summary
- Solomon took 20 years to build the temple and his palace. After that:
- rebuilt the cities that Hiram had given him
- he also took and rebuilt other cities and made the surounding people forced labourers
- he organised the religious festivals and officials
- he received gifts from King Hiram
- he impressed the Queen of Sheba with his wisdom and wealth
- Solomon was really rich and wise. Really.
- Solomon reigned in Jerusalem for 40 years and was succeeded by his son Rehoboam
Questions and Observations
1) The author focusses on Solomon being a builder and organiser, on being rich and wise, and on impressing other Kings and Queens and receiving gifts from them. No problems everything is good.
2 Chronicles 9 text
Highlights
- Solomon the builder. Impressing everyone.
Summary
- Solomon took 20 years to build the temple and his palace. After that:
- rebuilt the cities that Hiram had given him
- he also took and rebuilt other cities and made the surounding people forced labourers
- he organised the religious festivals and officials
- he received gifts from King Hiram
- he impressed the Queen of Sheba with his wisdom and wealth
- Solomon was really rich and wise. Really.
- Solomon reigned in Jerusalem for 40 years and was succeeded by his son Rehoboam
Questions and Observations
1) The author focusses on Solomon being a builder and organiser, on being rich and wise, and on impressing other Kings and Queens and receiving gifts from them. No problems everything is good.
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
A thought occurs to me. In the case of Chronicles, where the material is essentially duplicating Samuel/Kings, we can poke about and note where rewriting to simplify and/or flatter is occurring. Some of the books that follow come from very similar sources (e.g. Ezra). It's going to be a lot more difficult to spot this without a crib-sheet to work to.
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: MoominDave on Aug 31, 2016, 03:55AMA thought occurs to me. In the case of Chronicles, where the material is essentially duplicating Samuel/Kings, we can poke about and note where rewriting to simplify and/or flatter is occurring. Some of the books that follow come from very similar sources (e.g. Ezra). It's going to be a lot more difficult to spot this without a crib-sheet to work to.
Do you mean something like this : http://www.esvbible.org/resources/esv-global-study-bible/chart_13_02/
Do you mean something like this : http://www.esvbible.org/resources/esv-global-study-bible/chart_13_02/
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 10 text
Highlights
- Rehoboam: not wise. Israel: no longer united
Summary
- Rehoboam goes to Shechem for his coronation.
- Jeroboam goes there too and stirs up the Northern Tribes against Rehoboam.
- Rehoboam doesn't listen to the peoples complaints and makes the situation worse.
- Rehoboam flees to Jerusalem and Israel has been in rebellion against the house of David until this day.
Questions and Observations
1) Rehoboam is not nearly as wise or peace-loving as Solomon (in the chronicler's opinion)
2) Although Israel's concerns seem to be given validity and Rehoboam is shown negatively, the conclusion is that Israel is rebelling. This seems to be a criticism of them. What do you think?
Highlights
- Rehoboam: not wise. Israel: no longer united
Summary
- Rehoboam goes to Shechem for his coronation.
- Jeroboam goes there too and stirs up the Northern Tribes against Rehoboam.
- Rehoboam doesn't listen to the peoples complaints and makes the situation worse.
- Rehoboam flees to Jerusalem and Israel has been in rebellion against the house of David until this day.
Questions and Observations
1) Rehoboam is not nearly as wise or peace-loving as Solomon (in the chronicler's opinion)
2) Although Israel's concerns seem to be given validity and Rehoboam is shown negatively, the conclusion is that Israel is rebelling. This seems to be a criticism of them. What do you think?
-
ttf_robcat2075
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: drizabone on Aug 31, 2016, 05:26PM
2) Although Israel's concerns seem to be given validity and Rehoboam is shown negatively, the conclusion is that Israel is rebelling. This seems to be a criticism of them. What do you think?
Sounds like the doctrine of the divine right of Kings.
2) Although Israel's concerns seem to be given validity and Rehoboam is shown negatively, the conclusion is that Israel is rebelling. This seems to be a criticism of them. What do you think?
Sounds like the doctrine of the divine right of Kings.
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 11 text
Highlights
- Rehoboam builds up Judah
Summary
- Rehoboam raised an army in Jerusalem to take back those northern rebels
- God sends Shemaiah to tell him not to fight but to send his men home
- So Rehoboam builds up his defenses and holds on to Judah and Benjamin.
- All the priests and Levites from Israel came to Jerusalem because Jeroboam had cast them out and appointed his own priests to worhip in the High Places.
- Those who were loyal to God came to Jerusalem to worship
- Judah was strong for 3 years because they followed the ways of David and Solomon
- Rehoboam had lots of wives and concubines and distributed his sons through the kingdom.
Questions and Observations
1) The chronicler seems to be linking the Northern tribes rebellion against the descendants of David and Solomon (who he had chosen to lead all israel) with rebelling against God.
2) Rehoboams wisdom was limited to keeping his sons under control.
Highlights
- Rehoboam builds up Judah
Summary
- Rehoboam raised an army in Jerusalem to take back those northern rebels
- God sends Shemaiah to tell him not to fight but to send his men home
- So Rehoboam builds up his defenses and holds on to Judah and Benjamin.
- All the priests and Levites from Israel came to Jerusalem because Jeroboam had cast them out and appointed his own priests to worhip in the High Places.
- Those who were loyal to God came to Jerusalem to worship
- Judah was strong for 3 years because they followed the ways of David and Solomon
- Rehoboam had lots of wives and concubines and distributed his sons through the kingdom.
Questions and Observations
1) The chronicler seems to be linking the Northern tribes rebellion against the descendants of David and Solomon (who he had chosen to lead all israel) with rebelling against God.
2) Rehoboams wisdom was limited to keeping his sons under control.
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 12 text
Highlights
- Rehoboam was no a good king.
Summary
- Rehoboam is unfaithful on the Lord because he thought he didn't need him so Shishak, king of Egyypt attacks them as far as Judah
- Rehoboam and his princes repent so God relents and doesn't have Jerusalem destroyed. Shishak conquers Jerusalem and takes the treasures but leave Rehoboam in charge.
- Rehoboam reigned for 17 more years but did evil because he did not seek the Lord. There were continual wars with Jeroboan of Israel.
- He died and was replaced by his son Abijah
Questions and Observations
From the 2 chapters in chronicles covering Rehoboam:
Chronicles omits:
Golden Calves at Bethel and Dan 1 Kings 12:25-33
The Man of God From Judah 1 Kings 13:1-34
Ahijahs Prophecy Against Jeroboam 1 Kings 14:1-20
Chronicles adds:
Rehoboam Fortifies Judah 1 Chronicles 11:5-17
Rehoboams Family 1 Chronicles 11:18-23
Both include:
Rehoboam King of Judah & Shishak Attacks Jerusalem
Highlights
- Rehoboam was no a good king.
Summary
- Rehoboam is unfaithful on the Lord because he thought he didn't need him so Shishak, king of Egyypt attacks them as far as Judah
- Rehoboam and his princes repent so God relents and doesn't have Jerusalem destroyed. Shishak conquers Jerusalem and takes the treasures but leave Rehoboam in charge.
- Rehoboam reigned for 17 more years but did evil because he did not seek the Lord. There were continual wars with Jeroboan of Israel.
- He died and was replaced by his son Abijah
Questions and Observations
From the 2 chapters in chronicles covering Rehoboam:
Chronicles omits:
Golden Calves at Bethel and Dan 1 Kings 12:25-33
The Man of God From Judah 1 Kings 13:1-34
Ahijahs Prophecy Against Jeroboam 1 Kings 14:1-20
Chronicles adds:
Rehoboam Fortifies Judah 1 Chronicles 11:5-17
Rehoboams Family 1 Chronicles 11:18-23
Both include:
Rehoboam King of Judah & Shishak Attacks Jerusalem
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 13 text
Highlights
- Abijah rules
Summary
- Abijah and Jeroboam fought against each other
- Jeroboam had 800,000 against Abijah's 400,000
- Abijah claimed he had God's support because he was of David's line which was chosen by God while Jeroboam wasn't and got the kingdom because of the help of "worthless scoundrel's".
- And his priests were the son's of Aaron and served the True God while Jeroboam's where just anybody's who served "no gods".
- Abijah's army won a resounding victory despite being ambushed.
Questions and Observations
1) I was wondering about why the mother's of Abijamm and Rehoboam were mentioned. I guess its because Abijam's mother Michaiah who is the daughter of Uriel of Gibeah who was the son of Absalom the son of Solomon and so was of David's line through his Mum and Dad, and therefore was a good king. This is in contrast to Rehoboam who was a "bad" king: "His mother's name was Naamah the Ammonite. And he did evil, for he did not set his heart to seek the Lord."
2) its a bit tricky with people having different names in Chronicles and Kings and with Michaiah being called the daughter of Absalom and David too.
3) I guess the numbers are wrong again and "thousands" probably means "companies".
4) Abijah's insults against Jeroboam are cutting - at least in that culture.
5) Differences
Chronicles omits:
Abijah walking in the sins of his father 1Ki 15:3-5
Chronicles adds:
Abijah relying on being part of God's chosen dynasty, and having priests descended from Aaron serving the true god 2Ch 13:3-21
Highlights
- Abijah rules
Summary
- Abijah and Jeroboam fought against each other
- Jeroboam had 800,000 against Abijah's 400,000
- Abijah claimed he had God's support because he was of David's line which was chosen by God while Jeroboam wasn't and got the kingdom because of the help of "worthless scoundrel's".
- And his priests were the son's of Aaron and served the True God while Jeroboam's where just anybody's who served "no gods".
- Abijah's army won a resounding victory despite being ambushed.
Questions and Observations
1) I was wondering about why the mother's of Abijamm and Rehoboam were mentioned. I guess its because Abijam's mother Michaiah who is the daughter of Uriel of Gibeah who was the son of Absalom the son of Solomon and so was of David's line through his Mum and Dad, and therefore was a good king. This is in contrast to Rehoboam who was a "bad" king: "His mother's name was Naamah the Ammonite. And he did evil, for he did not set his heart to seek the Lord."
2) its a bit tricky with people having different names in Chronicles and Kings and with Michaiah being called the daughter of Absalom and David too.
3) I guess the numbers are wrong again and "thousands" probably means "companies".
4) Abijah's insults against Jeroboam are cutting - at least in that culture.
5) Differences
Chronicles omits:
Abijah walking in the sins of his father 1Ki 15:3-5
Chronicles adds:
Abijah relying on being part of God's chosen dynasty, and having priests descended from Aaron serving the true god 2Ch 13:3-21
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 14 text
2 Chronicles 15 text
2 Chronicles 16 text
Highlights
- Asa Rules, sometimes well and sometimes not.
Summary
- Abijah dies and is succeeded by his son Asa whose Mum was Ma'acah the daughter of Abish'alom
- Asa did good in the sight of God and Judah lived in peace and could build.
- Asa had an army of 580,000 (500 companies?).
- They were attacked by 1,000,000 Ethiopians! (a 1000 companies) so nearly twice as many.
- Asa appealed to The Lord for help and they routed and plundered the Ethiopians.
- God sent Azariah to tell Asa to take courage because if he trusted Him his work would be rewarded.
- So Asa took courage and put away all the idols, and gathered everyone in Judah and celebrated and sacrificed and swore an oath to The Lord
- Asa removed Ma'acah as Queen mother because she had an image of Asherah
- the High Places of Israel weren't taken out of Israel but Asa was true to The Lord and the land had rest until his 35th year as King.
- Then Baasha, King of Israel, stopped anyone from trading with Asa.
- Asa took the remaining treasures from the temple and paid Ben-hadad the king of Syria to attack Baasha.
- Hanani the seer told Asa that he would have been able to defeat the army of Syria like he did the Ethiopioans if he relied on The Lord instead of bribes.
- Asa punished Hanani for this.
- Asa was crippled by a disease in his 39th year but sought help from physicians rather than The Lord even though his disease became severe.
Questions and Observations
1) The Chronicler is presenting Asa as a king who succeeded when trusted The Lord and failed when he didn't. I take it that he is using this as a lesson to his readers.
2) Differences
In Chronicles but not Kings
- That Hanani passed on The Lord's judgement of Asa who punished him for his message
- That they honored Asa after his death.
Not in Chronicles:
- Asa's mother was Ma'acah the daughter of Abish'alom (Absalom). This was the same person who was Jeraboam's mum wasn't she? I expect that this is another expample of the way they say x was the daughter/son of y where they mean x was the descendant of y and that they did this to emphasis the relationship to the a significant ancestor. Which begs the question of why Ma'acah was significant?
2 Chronicles 15 text
2 Chronicles 16 text
Highlights
- Asa Rules, sometimes well and sometimes not.
Summary
- Abijah dies and is succeeded by his son Asa whose Mum was Ma'acah the daughter of Abish'alom
- Asa did good in the sight of God and Judah lived in peace and could build.
- Asa had an army of 580,000 (500 companies?).
- They were attacked by 1,000,000 Ethiopians! (a 1000 companies) so nearly twice as many.
- Asa appealed to The Lord for help and they routed and plundered the Ethiopians.
- God sent Azariah to tell Asa to take courage because if he trusted Him his work would be rewarded.
- So Asa took courage and put away all the idols, and gathered everyone in Judah and celebrated and sacrificed and swore an oath to The Lord
- Asa removed Ma'acah as Queen mother because she had an image of Asherah
- the High Places of Israel weren't taken out of Israel but Asa was true to The Lord and the land had rest until his 35th year as King.
- Then Baasha, King of Israel, stopped anyone from trading with Asa.
- Asa took the remaining treasures from the temple and paid Ben-hadad the king of Syria to attack Baasha.
- Hanani the seer told Asa that he would have been able to defeat the army of Syria like he did the Ethiopioans if he relied on The Lord instead of bribes.
- Asa punished Hanani for this.
- Asa was crippled by a disease in his 39th year but sought help from physicians rather than The Lord even though his disease became severe.
Questions and Observations
1) The Chronicler is presenting Asa as a king who succeeded when trusted The Lord and failed when he didn't. I take it that he is using this as a lesson to his readers.
2) Differences
In Chronicles but not Kings
- That Hanani passed on The Lord's judgement of Asa who punished him for his message
- That they honored Asa after his death.
Not in Chronicles:
- Asa's mother was Ma'acah the daughter of Abish'alom (Absalom). This was the same person who was Jeraboam's mum wasn't she? I expect that this is another expample of the way they say x was the daughter/son of y where they mean x was the descendant of y and that they did this to emphasis the relationship to the a significant ancestor. Which begs the question of why Ma'acah was significant?
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: drizabone on Sep 01, 2016, 10:56PM2 Chronicles 11 text
No equivalent to this passage in Samuel/Kings, I think.
Quote from: drizabone on Sep 05, 2016, 02:41PM2 Chronicles 12 text
- Rehoboam was no a good king.
You've caught the Scottish from Mrs Dave too, I see...
Quote from: drizabone on Sep 06, 2016, 11:13PM2 Chronicles 14 text
2 Chronicles 15 text
2 Chronicles 16 text
I think there's quite a bit more on Asa here than there was in Kings.
No equivalent to this passage in Samuel/Kings, I think.
Quote from: drizabone on Sep 05, 2016, 02:41PM2 Chronicles 12 text
- Rehoboam was no a good king.
You've caught the Scottish from Mrs Dave too, I see...
Quote from: drizabone on Sep 06, 2016, 11:13PM2 Chronicles 14 text
2 Chronicles 15 text
2 Chronicles 16 text
I think there's quite a bit more on Asa here than there was in Kings.
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 17 text
2 Chronicles 18 text
2 Chronicles 19 text
2 Chronicles 20 text
Compare 1 Kings 22
Highlights
- Jehoshaphat rules in Judah
Summary
Ch. 17
- Jehoshaphat fortified and garrisoned the land
- He also was a good Yahweh follower, to which his success is attributed
- Surrounding kingdoms paid tribute, and Judah grew wealthy
Ch. 18
- Jehoshaphat travels to King Ahab in Samaria, in Israel.
- Ahab tries to talk him into a military alliance against Ramoth-gilead.
- Jehoshaphat consults local prophets, who are encouraging, but isn't convinced. He locates the prophet Micaiah, who tells him a different story - God has lied through the other prophets, and the whole thing is a ruse to get Ahab killed.
- They go to battle and Ahab dies.
Ch. 19
- Jehoshaphat is religiously rebuked for "help[ing] the wicked".
- He makes some appointments.
Ch. 20
- Judah is attacked by a large coalition of foreign forces.
- Jehoshaphat and his people pray to Yahweh.
- Yahweh advises them on battleground tactics.
- They ambush the invaders as advised and are victorious, taking much spoil back to Jerusalem.
- Postscript: Jehoshaphat goes bad and dies.
Questions and Observations
1) It's becoming evident that the Chronicler's focus is on Judah. Where Kings went back and forth to Israel, we are only hearing from the perspective of the Southern kingdom in Chronicles.
2) 1 Kings 22 covers all of these four Chronicles chapters, which are more detailed. Note that 1K22 talks more from the Northern perspective than the Southern, in terms of Ahab.
3) Funny how Ahab was so frowned on and Jehoshaphat so approved of but they were allied by marriage and military. One suspects significant omitted complexities.
4) We'd noted much earlier how it isn't typically seen as a problem for the faithful that God lies sometimes.
5) Seems a bit much that Jehoshaphat was told off by God for doing what God had ordered him to do. But we don't expect consistency from Yahweh.
6) Strange ending, particularly when compared with the simple endorsement given in chapter 17.
2 Chronicles 18 text
2 Chronicles 19 text
2 Chronicles 20 text
Compare 1 Kings 22
Highlights
- Jehoshaphat rules in Judah
Summary
Ch. 17
- Jehoshaphat fortified and garrisoned the land
- He also was a good Yahweh follower, to which his success is attributed
- Surrounding kingdoms paid tribute, and Judah grew wealthy
Ch. 18
- Jehoshaphat travels to King Ahab in Samaria, in Israel.
- Ahab tries to talk him into a military alliance against Ramoth-gilead.
- Jehoshaphat consults local prophets, who are encouraging, but isn't convinced. He locates the prophet Micaiah, who tells him a different story - God has lied through the other prophets, and the whole thing is a ruse to get Ahab killed.
- They go to battle and Ahab dies.
Ch. 19
- Jehoshaphat is religiously rebuked for "help[ing] the wicked".
- He makes some appointments.
Ch. 20
- Judah is attacked by a large coalition of foreign forces.
- Jehoshaphat and his people pray to Yahweh.
- Yahweh advises them on battleground tactics.
- They ambush the invaders as advised and are victorious, taking much spoil back to Jerusalem.
- Postscript: Jehoshaphat goes bad and dies.
Questions and Observations
1) It's becoming evident that the Chronicler's focus is on Judah. Where Kings went back and forth to Israel, we are only hearing from the perspective of the Southern kingdom in Chronicles.
2) 1 Kings 22 covers all of these four Chronicles chapters, which are more detailed. Note that 1K22 talks more from the Northern perspective than the Southern, in terms of Ahab.
3) Funny how Ahab was so frowned on and Jehoshaphat so approved of but they were allied by marriage and military. One suspects significant omitted complexities.
4) We'd noted much earlier how it isn't typically seen as a problem for the faithful that God lies sometimes.
5) Seems a bit much that Jehoshaphat was told off by God for doing what God had ordered him to do. But we don't expect consistency from Yahweh.
6) Strange ending, particularly when compared with the simple endorsement given in chapter 17.
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 07, 2016, 01:47PMNo equivalent to this passage in Samuel/Kings, I think.
Yep, I hadn't thought of listing the differences in that chapter.
QuoteI think there's quite a bit more on Asa here than there was in Kings.
You're right, the chronicler introduces:
- the battle against the Ethiopians
- the message from Azariah that The LORD would now be with them , while you are with him... This would be significant.
- and that after the victory they had a big celebration to worship The Lord
Yep, I hadn't thought of listing the differences in that chapter.
QuoteI think there's quite a bit more on Asa here than there was in Kings.
You're right, the chronicler introduces:
- the battle against the Ethiopians
- the message from Azariah that The LORD would now be with them , while you are with him... This would be significant.
- and that after the victory they had a big celebration to worship The Lord
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 07, 2016, 02:09PMQuestions and Observations
3) Funny how Ahab was so frowned on and Jehoshaphat so approved of but they were allied by marriage and military. One suspects significant omitted complexities.
I think that the Northern Kings were automatically frowned upon because they weren't of David's line. The Southern Kings were good when they followed The Lord or bad otherwise.
And I think the alliance is what Jehoshaphat is eventually condemned for.
Quote4) We'd noted much earlier how it isn't typically seen as a problem for the faithful that God lies sometimes.
He doesn't actually lie, but he does allow others to lie on his behalf to achieve his purposes. It reminds me of some of the wordplays in legal drama's like The Good Wife. And it is a tad disconcerting. Not a trick I teach my kids, not that they need lessons.
Quote5) Seems a bit much that Jehoshaphat was told off by God for doing what God had ordered him to do. But we don't expect consistency from Yahweh.
I'm not sure whether Jehu's judgement is specifically for the war with Syria, or more generally for Jehoshaphat's alliance with Israel.
Quote6) Strange ending, particularly when compared with the simple endorsement given in chapter 17.
I think the chronicler has/or will give the same treatment to a few of the kings, eg Hezekiah. The Judean kings were generally given good marks, but also shown to be flawed.
3) Funny how Ahab was so frowned on and Jehoshaphat so approved of but they were allied by marriage and military. One suspects significant omitted complexities.
I think that the Northern Kings were automatically frowned upon because they weren't of David's line. The Southern Kings were good when they followed The Lord or bad otherwise.
And I think the alliance is what Jehoshaphat is eventually condemned for.
Quote4) We'd noted much earlier how it isn't typically seen as a problem for the faithful that God lies sometimes.
He doesn't actually lie, but he does allow others to lie on his behalf to achieve his purposes. It reminds me of some of the wordplays in legal drama's like The Good Wife. And it is a tad disconcerting. Not a trick I teach my kids, not that they need lessons.
Quote5) Seems a bit much that Jehoshaphat was told off by God for doing what God had ordered him to do. But we don't expect consistency from Yahweh.
I'm not sure whether Jehu's judgement is specifically for the war with Syria, or more generally for Jehoshaphat's alliance with Israel.
Quote6) Strange ending, particularly when compared with the simple endorsement given in chapter 17.
I think the chronicler has/or will give the same treatment to a few of the kings, eg Hezekiah. The Judean kings were generally given good marks, but also shown to be flawed.
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 21 text
2 Chronicles 22 text
Compare 2 Kings 8-9
Highlights
- Jehoram rules in Judah, followed by Ahaziah and Athaliah
Summary
Ch. 21
- Jehoshaphat's son Jehoram succeeds, but he is not approved of because his wife is Ahab's daughter
- Territory is lost - Edom and Libnah
- Jehoram encourages plurality of worship and Elijah prophesies a nasty end for him and plague for the people
- Judah invaded and Jehoram's possessions taken
- Jehoram dies in agony from a bowel disease at age 40
Ch. 22
- Jehoram's son Ahaziah succeeds, but he was captured and put to death by enemies while on campaign
- Ahaziah's mother Athaliah takes charge, murdering members of her family that might challenge her
- However, Joash, Ahaziah's infant son, is rescued
Questions and Observations
1) So the usurping queen Athaliah was Ahab's daughter. I think I'd not spotted that in Kings.
2) Kings has a lot more detail on the material in these chapters in general though.
3) There are 7 chapters in Kings omitted here, and the content of them doesn't entirely match our theory that the Chronicler is super-keen on Yahweh-worship, dealing as they do mainly with the miracles of Elisha. Indeed Elijah and Elisha have barely appeared in Chronicles yet at all, while they were major figures (presumably) advocating for Yahweh in Kings.
2 Chronicles 22 text
Compare 2 Kings 8-9
Highlights
- Jehoram rules in Judah, followed by Ahaziah and Athaliah
Summary
Ch. 21
- Jehoshaphat's son Jehoram succeeds, but he is not approved of because his wife is Ahab's daughter
- Territory is lost - Edom and Libnah
- Jehoram encourages plurality of worship and Elijah prophesies a nasty end for him and plague for the people
- Judah invaded and Jehoram's possessions taken
- Jehoram dies in agony from a bowel disease at age 40
Ch. 22
- Jehoram's son Ahaziah succeeds, but he was captured and put to death by enemies while on campaign
- Ahaziah's mother Athaliah takes charge, murdering members of her family that might challenge her
- However, Joash, Ahaziah's infant son, is rescued
Questions and Observations
1) So the usurping queen Athaliah was Ahab's daughter. I think I'd not spotted that in Kings.
2) Kings has a lot more detail on the material in these chapters in general though.
3) There are 7 chapters in Kings omitted here, and the content of them doesn't entirely match our theory that the Chronicler is super-keen on Yahweh-worship, dealing as they do mainly with the miracles of Elisha. Indeed Elijah and Elisha have barely appeared in Chronicles yet at all, while they were major figures (presumably) advocating for Yahweh in Kings.
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 10, 2016, 02:34AM3) There are 7 chapters in Kings omitted here, and the content of them doesn't entirely match our theory that the Chronicler is super-keen on Yahweh-worship, dealing as they do mainly with the miracles of Elisha. Indeed Elijah and Elisha have barely appeared in Chronicles yet at all, while they were major figures (presumably) advocating for Yahweh in Kings.
I'm not sure that our theory has problems yet. Chronicles promotes Yahweh worship but also focuses on Judah as they were ruled by the descendants of David. Elijah and Elisha operated in Israel (as opposed to Judah) and prophesied against the "illegitimate" Northern Kings. Chronicles deals mainly with events in Judah.
I'm not sure that our theory has problems yet. Chronicles promotes Yahweh worship but also focuses on Judah as they were ruled by the descendants of David. Elijah and Elisha operated in Israel (as opposed to Judah) and prophesied against the "illegitimate" Northern Kings. Chronicles deals mainly with events in Judah.
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 23 text
2 Chronicles 24 text
Compare 2 Kings 11-12
Highlights
- Joash rescued but unappreciative.
Summary
( in the last episode Joash, Ahaziah's infant son, is rescued, and placed in the protection of Jehoiada the priest and was hidden in the temple for 6 years)
Chapter 23
- in the seventh year Jehoiada arranges with the leaders of the army and the priests to proclaim Joash as King.
- Athaliah comes in to the temple to see what the fuss is. She is captured, taken out of the temple and executed.
- Jehoiada reinstitues the temple worship and sacrifices and everyone is happy and there is peace.
Chapter 24
- Joash restored the temple and ordered that everyone pay a temple tax. Everyone rejoiced.
- the money was used to repair the temple and to provide tools and implements for the worship
- But after Jehoiada died Joash turned against The Lord and served the Asherim.
- The Lord sent Zechariah, Jehoiada's son, to prophesy against Joash. Joash had Zechariah stoned.
- At the end of the year the Syrians attacked and defeated Joash, killed the princes of Israel and plundered their treasures.
- Joash's servants killed Joash because of what he did to Zechariah.
Questions and Observations
1) Do you reckon that everyone really rejoiced at getting to pay a temple tax?
2 Chronicles 24 text
Compare 2 Kings 11-12
Highlights
- Joash rescued but unappreciative.
Summary
( in the last episode Joash, Ahaziah's infant son, is rescued, and placed in the protection of Jehoiada the priest and was hidden in the temple for 6 years)
Chapter 23
- in the seventh year Jehoiada arranges with the leaders of the army and the priests to proclaim Joash as King.
- Athaliah comes in to the temple to see what the fuss is. She is captured, taken out of the temple and executed.
- Jehoiada reinstitues the temple worship and sacrifices and everyone is happy and there is peace.
Chapter 24
- Joash restored the temple and ordered that everyone pay a temple tax. Everyone rejoiced.
- the money was used to repair the temple and to provide tools and implements for the worship
- But after Jehoiada died Joash turned against The Lord and served the Asherim.
- The Lord sent Zechariah, Jehoiada's son, to prophesy against Joash. Joash had Zechariah stoned.
- At the end of the year the Syrians attacked and defeated Joash, killed the princes of Israel and plundered their treasures.
- Joash's servants killed Joash because of what he did to Zechariah.
Questions and Observations
1) Do you reckon that everyone really rejoiced at getting to pay a temple tax?
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 25 text
Compare 2 Kings 14
Highlights
- Amaziah rules, but not good enough.
Summary
- Joash's son Amaziah takes the throne next. His first order of business is to kill the servants who killed his father. But don't kill their children; that's against the rules of Moses.
- King Amaziah gets an army together to attack Edom. He assembles men from Judah, but also pays soldiers from the Northern Kingdom of Israel to fight for him.
- But a man of God comes to the king and lets him know that fighting alongside men from Israel is a bad idea. So the king listens and sends the soldiers from Israel back home. But weren't happy to miss out on the fighting and/or plundering so they go back home in a rage.
- While Amaziah defeats the Edomites (with the help of God, of course), the dejected army from Israel attacks cities in Judah, killing people and stealing their stuff.
- King Amaziah obviously never took Kings of Judah 101 because he goes on to make the same mistake that his ancestors made before himhe starts worshipping other gods. The gods of Edom to be precise.
- Why, God wonders, would the king want to worship the gods of Edom? Didn't he just smash them to a bloody pulp in battle? Obviously, their gods are useless.
- But King Amaziah just doesn't get it.
- Later, Amaziah wants to try to make peace yet again with the Northern Kingdom of Israel. The king in the north pretty much snubs him, though.
- Amaziah attacks Israel and ends up taking a beating (which he totally deserved for worshipping those other gods). The King of Israel tears down the wall of Jerusalem and carries all the Temple's gold and silver back to Samaria.
- Years later, King Amaziah is killed in a conspiracy after he runs from Jerusalem.
Questions and Observations
1) Another king who starts off ok, but then thinks he know's better.
2) It looks like the Chronicler is going out of his way to make them look silly for not learning the obvious lessons of "history".
Compare 2 Kings 14
Highlights
- Amaziah rules, but not good enough.
Summary
- Joash's son Amaziah takes the throne next. His first order of business is to kill the servants who killed his father. But don't kill their children; that's against the rules of Moses.
- King Amaziah gets an army together to attack Edom. He assembles men from Judah, but also pays soldiers from the Northern Kingdom of Israel to fight for him.
- But a man of God comes to the king and lets him know that fighting alongside men from Israel is a bad idea. So the king listens and sends the soldiers from Israel back home. But weren't happy to miss out on the fighting and/or plundering so they go back home in a rage.
- While Amaziah defeats the Edomites (with the help of God, of course), the dejected army from Israel attacks cities in Judah, killing people and stealing their stuff.
- King Amaziah obviously never took Kings of Judah 101 because he goes on to make the same mistake that his ancestors made before himhe starts worshipping other gods. The gods of Edom to be precise.
- Why, God wonders, would the king want to worship the gods of Edom? Didn't he just smash them to a bloody pulp in battle? Obviously, their gods are useless.
- But King Amaziah just doesn't get it.
- Later, Amaziah wants to try to make peace yet again with the Northern Kingdom of Israel. The king in the north pretty much snubs him, though.
- Amaziah attacks Israel and ends up taking a beating (which he totally deserved for worshipping those other gods). The King of Israel tears down the wall of Jerusalem and carries all the Temple's gold and silver back to Samaria.
- Years later, King Amaziah is killed in a conspiracy after he runs from Jerusalem.
Questions and Observations
1) Another king who starts off ok, but then thinks he know's better.
2) It looks like the Chronicler is going out of his way to make them look silly for not learning the obvious lessons of "history".
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: drizabone on Sep 10, 2016, 04:02AMI'm not sure that our theory has problems yet. Chronicles promotes Yahweh worship but also focuses on Judah as they were ruled by the descendants of David. Elijah and Elisha operated in Israel (as opposed to Judah) and prophesied against the "illegitimate" Northern Kings. Chronicles deals mainly with events in Judah.
Seems fair.
Quote from: drizabone on Sep 10, 2016, 04:29AM2 Chronicles 23 text
2 Chronicles 24 text
1) Do you reckon that everyone really rejoiced at getting to pay a temple tax?
Also - the counter-revolution comes and the priest of an alternative religion is murdered in his temple, not a pretty outcome. I'm never very clear when Baal is referenced which god is being referred to due to the local habit of using the word meaning 'lord' to refer to divine beings, but I suppose we can be clear that the Baal in this case refers to whichever god Athaliah brought the worship of from Samaria - sweeping out of her regime included sweeping out her religious habits too.
Quote from: drizabone on Sep 11, 2016, 04:05AM2 Chronicles 25 text
Compare 2 Kings 14
1) Another king who starts off ok, but then thinks he know's better.
2) It looks like the Chronicler is going out of his way to make them look silly for not learning the obvious lessons of "history".
The episode with the Edomic gods is not recounted in Kings. An invention of the Chronicler, perhaps? As you say, it would be very strange timing.
Going out of his way, yes, I would say so. He has a motif to portray, and he is shoehorning it into every single little biography that he recounts. It seems to me that he is letting his later context blind him (wilfully or not?) to the complexities of worship that the text has made clear were current in the ancient times he is writing about, when Yahweh was one god among many, whose followers were jostling for political pre-eminence with other similar groups.
Seems fair.
Quote from: drizabone on Sep 10, 2016, 04:29AM2 Chronicles 23 text
2 Chronicles 24 text
1) Do you reckon that everyone really rejoiced at getting to pay a temple tax?
Also - the counter-revolution comes and the priest of an alternative religion is murdered in his temple, not a pretty outcome. I'm never very clear when Baal is referenced which god is being referred to due to the local habit of using the word meaning 'lord' to refer to divine beings, but I suppose we can be clear that the Baal in this case refers to whichever god Athaliah brought the worship of from Samaria - sweeping out of her regime included sweeping out her religious habits too.
Quote from: drizabone on Sep 11, 2016, 04:05AM2 Chronicles 25 text
Compare 2 Kings 14
1) Another king who starts off ok, but then thinks he know's better.
2) It looks like the Chronicler is going out of his way to make them look silly for not learning the obvious lessons of "history".
The episode with the Edomic gods is not recounted in Kings. An invention of the Chronicler, perhaps? As you say, it would be very strange timing.
Going out of his way, yes, I would say so. He has a motif to portray, and he is shoehorning it into every single little biography that he recounts. It seems to me that he is letting his later context blind him (wilfully or not?) to the complexities of worship that the text has made clear were current in the ancient times he is writing about, when Yahweh was one god among many, whose followers were jostling for political pre-eminence with other similar groups.
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 26 text
Compare 2 Kings 15
Highlights
- Uzziah's reign
Summary
- Uzziah succeeded his father Amaziah when he was 16. He reigned 52 years
- He did what was right in the eyes of the Lord by following the words of Zechariah and God made him prosper.
- God helped him defeat the Philistines, the Arabians and and Ammonites.
- He fortified his cities and had a large army.
- But when he was strong he grew proud and thought he could burn incense to God like the priests.
- God punished him with leprosy, which he had until he died.
Questions and Observations
1) The Chronicler tells us much more of the life of Uzziah than Kings and the cause of his leprosy has a different emphasis. In Kings it was related to him not taking away the "High Places" which allowed the people to worship false Gods. In Chronicles is was because Uzziah became proud and tried to offer incense to God like the priests did. I would think that these descriptions are complementary rather than contradictory.
2) it will be interesting to see what you make of the prophets when we get to them
Compare 2 Kings 15
Highlights
- Uzziah's reign
Summary
- Uzziah succeeded his father Amaziah when he was 16. He reigned 52 years
- He did what was right in the eyes of the Lord by following the words of Zechariah and God made him prosper.
- God helped him defeat the Philistines, the Arabians and and Ammonites.
- He fortified his cities and had a large army.
- But when he was strong he grew proud and thought he could burn incense to God like the priests.
- God punished him with leprosy, which he had until he died.
Questions and Observations
1) The Chronicler tells us much more of the life of Uzziah than Kings and the cause of his leprosy has a different emphasis. In Kings it was related to him not taking away the "High Places" which allowed the people to worship false Gods. In Chronicles is was because Uzziah became proud and tried to offer incense to God like the priests did. I would think that these descriptions are complementary rather than contradictory.
2) it will be interesting to see what you make of the prophets when we get to them
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
I think you've inadvertently done something that I've done myself a few times in this thread - pressed "Modify" rather than "Quote", and then accidentally replaced the previous summary with the next in an older post. Some of your 2 Chronicles 25 summary is preserved quoted in my above reply to it, but only a portion of it. Fortunately I've always (I think!) spotted it at the time and been able to recapture the old text using the back button in my browser, but I suspect you've closed down your browser session by now.
I am intrigued that Amaziah's son is called "Uzziah" here, but "Azariah" in Kings. Wikipedia tells us that scholarly opinion is that "Azariah" is the result of a copyist error. So "Uzziah" seems the name to go with.
I haven't in Chronicles been updating the reign length tallying I was doing as we went through Samuel/Kings (which did rather bog us down given how large it grew - sorry about that), but the dates as given for Uzziah in the Wikipedia article point to a crucial narrative element in all this recounting - the existence of habitual co-regencies. Of those 52 years, Uzziah is only listed as sole monarch for 16 of them.
I'm looking forward to the prophet books too. We've not yet covered any material that I haven't read in the past, but I've never read through even Isaiah of the prophets - it'll all be new to me. I think I did once read Daniel and Ezekiel, but the memory is pretty blurry. Fiery furnaces and valleys of bones...
I am intrigued that Amaziah's son is called "Uzziah" here, but "Azariah" in Kings. Wikipedia tells us that scholarly opinion is that "Azariah" is the result of a copyist error. So "Uzziah" seems the name to go with.
I haven't in Chronicles been updating the reign length tallying I was doing as we went through Samuel/Kings (which did rather bog us down given how large it grew - sorry about that), but the dates as given for Uzziah in the Wikipedia article point to a crucial narrative element in all this recounting - the existence of habitual co-regencies. Of those 52 years, Uzziah is only listed as sole monarch for 16 of them.
I'm looking forward to the prophet books too. We've not yet covered any material that I haven't read in the past, but I've never read through even Isaiah of the prophets - it'll all be new to me. I think I did once read Daniel and Ezekiel, but the memory is pretty blurry. Fiery furnaces and valleys of bones...
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 12, 2016, 03:47AMI think you've inadvertently done something that I've done myself a few times in this thread - pressed "Modify" rather than "Quote", and then accidentally replaced the previous summary with the next in an older post.
fortunately I write these up in a text editor and still had a copy. Wulla. All fixed
QuoteI am intrigued that Amaziah's son is called "Uzziah" here, but "Azariah" in Kings. Wikipedia tells us that scholarly opinion is that "Azariah" is the result of a copyist error. So "Uzziah" seems the name to go with.
Other scholars think that one was his birth name and the other his official name http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/2708/are-uzziah-and-azariah-the-name-of-the-same-king. I wish these scholars would make up their minds.
QuoteI haven't in Chronicles been updating the reign length tallying I was doing as we went through Samuel/Kings (which did rather bog us down given how large it grew - sorry about that), but the dates as given for Uzziah in the Wikipedia article point to a crucial narrative element in all this recounting - the existence of habitual co-regencies. Of those 52 years, Uzziah is only listed as sole monarch for 16 of them.
that's ok. I assumed that the dates would be similar.
QuoteI'm looking forward to the prophet books too. We've not yet covered any material that I haven't read in the past, but I've never read through even Isaiah of the prophets - it'll all be new to me. I think I did once read Daniel and Ezekiel, but the memory is pretty blurry. Fiery furnaces and valleys of bones...
I'll have to get you a book on how to work out what prophets really mean. There are guidelines for interpretation other than take the first obvious thing you think of, but they were written by scholars too, so there are lots of guidelines to chose from.
fortunately I write these up in a text editor and still had a copy. Wulla. All fixed
QuoteI am intrigued that Amaziah's son is called "Uzziah" here, but "Azariah" in Kings. Wikipedia tells us that scholarly opinion is that "Azariah" is the result of a copyist error. So "Uzziah" seems the name to go with.
Other scholars think that one was his birth name and the other his official name http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/2708/are-uzziah-and-azariah-the-name-of-the-same-king. I wish these scholars would make up their minds.
QuoteI haven't in Chronicles been updating the reign length tallying I was doing as we went through Samuel/Kings (which did rather bog us down given how large it grew - sorry about that), but the dates as given for Uzziah in the Wikipedia article point to a crucial narrative element in all this recounting - the existence of habitual co-regencies. Of those 52 years, Uzziah is only listed as sole monarch for 16 of them.
that's ok. I assumed that the dates would be similar.
QuoteI'm looking forward to the prophet books too. We've not yet covered any material that I haven't read in the past, but I've never read through even Isaiah of the prophets - it'll all be new to me. I think I did once read Daniel and Ezekiel, but the memory is pretty blurry. Fiery furnaces and valleys of bones...
I'll have to get you a book on how to work out what prophets really mean. There are guidelines for interpretation other than take the first obvious thing you think of, but they were written by scholars too, so there are lots of guidelines to chose from.
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 27 text
Compare 2 Kings 15
Highlights
- Jotham's reign
Summary
- Jotham was 25 when he began to reign
- He was mostly good in the eyes of The Lord, but the people were still corrupt
- He strengthened some cities and fought the Ammonites
- He reigned for 16 years and then died.
Questions and Observations
1) The only extra thing Kings tells us is that the LORD began to send Rezin the king of Syria and Pekah the son of Remali'ah against Judah.
Compare 2 Kings 15
Highlights
- Jotham's reign
Summary
- Jotham was 25 when he began to reign
- He was mostly good in the eyes of The Lord, but the people were still corrupt
- He strengthened some cities and fought the Ammonites
- He reigned for 16 years and then died.
Questions and Observations
1) The only extra thing Kings tells us is that the LORD began to send Rezin the king of Syria and Pekah the son of Remali'ah against Judah.
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 28 text
Compare 2 Kings 16
Highlights
- Ahaz's reign : a bad king
Summary
- Ahaz was a bad king and did what the kings of Israel did: he even made metal images of the Baals and sacrificed his children as burnt offerings
- The Lord gave him into the had of the king of Syria and the king of Israel.
- Israel took lots of captives and plunder.
- But when they bought it hom, Oded the prophet told them that The Lord had given the Judeans into their hand because he was angry with them, but that their rage had come to the attention of God, so they had better let the Judeans go. Some of the tribal leaders supported this, so they let the Judeans go back with their property.
- King Ahaz asked the king of Assyria for help because he was being attacked by the Philistines. Ahaz gave him some of the temple treasures but it didn't help him.
- Ahaz got so desperate that he sacrificed to the gods of Damascus and closed the temple and made altars to the gods our of the temple treasures.
- when he died they didn't bury him in the tombs of the kings of Israel
Questions and Observations
1) Kings doesn't have the attacks by Syria and Israel and then later by the Philistines.
Compare 2 Kings 16
Highlights
- Ahaz's reign : a bad king
Summary
- Ahaz was a bad king and did what the kings of Israel did: he even made metal images of the Baals and sacrificed his children as burnt offerings
- The Lord gave him into the had of the king of Syria and the king of Israel.
- Israel took lots of captives and plunder.
- But when they bought it hom, Oded the prophet told them that The Lord had given the Judeans into their hand because he was angry with them, but that their rage had come to the attention of God, so they had better let the Judeans go. Some of the tribal leaders supported this, so they let the Judeans go back with their property.
- King Ahaz asked the king of Assyria for help because he was being attacked by the Philistines. Ahaz gave him some of the temple treasures but it didn't help him.
- Ahaz got so desperate that he sacrificed to the gods of Damascus and closed the temple and made altars to the gods our of the temple treasures.
- when he died they didn't bury him in the tombs of the kings of Israel
Questions and Observations
1) Kings doesn't have the attacks by Syria and Israel and then later by the Philistines.
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: drizabone on Sep 12, 2016, 02:25PMWulla.
Enjoying quite how Ozzie it sounds when I say "Wulla" to myself instead of "Voila". Thanks for that.
While we're talking about pronunciation, I've been wondering something about all these characters with Yahweh tribute names - those ending in 'iah'. There's a lot of them - Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hezekiah, Gedaliah, Zedekiah, Uzziah, Amaziah, Josiah, to pick the first handful that come to mind. In modern English we have very particular ways of pronouncing them which I think reflect nothing more than rather parochial older British speech patterns, e.g. i-Zai-yah. The stress seems to fall on the second syllable most of the time in the above list - I think only DZe-re-Mai-yah differs? Though I'm not 100% certain on how some of the less well known examples are usually said - he-Zee-kee-yah or He-zee-Kee-yah? I naturally go for the former, but I'm not sure about it...
OP ("Original Pronuncation") is an interesting field, and people have used it to perform e.g. Shakespeare as our best modern guesses at Elizabethan pronunciation direct us. But even that is rather fraught with difficulties, and the characters we are dealing with here lived 5-6 times as long ago as Shakespeare did, speaking languages much less extensively documented. We are going to struggle to recapture the exact sounds that contemporaries uttered when they spoke these names, that is clear.
Wikipedia tells us that Hezekiah is more properly transliterated as 'Hizkiyyahu'. It seems clear to me that our standard practice of making the 'i' of 'iah' part of the syllable with a preceding consonant (or even part of a diphthong with a preceding vowel as in 'Isaiah') is unlikely to reflect OP at all accurately. Should we be breaking all these names up differently - i-Sa-Yah, Dze-rem-Yah, He-zek-Yah, etc.?
An minor point that occurs to me - Hezekiah and Ezekiel - these must be essentially the same name, I think? 'Iah' = 'Yahweh', 'El' = 'El', and the opening 'H' is sometimes omitted.
Enjoying quite how Ozzie it sounds when I say "Wulla" to myself instead of "Voila". Thanks for that.
While we're talking about pronunciation, I've been wondering something about all these characters with Yahweh tribute names - those ending in 'iah'. There's a lot of them - Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hezekiah, Gedaliah, Zedekiah, Uzziah, Amaziah, Josiah, to pick the first handful that come to mind. In modern English we have very particular ways of pronouncing them which I think reflect nothing more than rather parochial older British speech patterns, e.g. i-Zai-yah. The stress seems to fall on the second syllable most of the time in the above list - I think only DZe-re-Mai-yah differs? Though I'm not 100% certain on how some of the less well known examples are usually said - he-Zee-kee-yah or He-zee-Kee-yah? I naturally go for the former, but I'm not sure about it...
OP ("Original Pronuncation") is an interesting field, and people have used it to perform e.g. Shakespeare as our best modern guesses at Elizabethan pronunciation direct us. But even that is rather fraught with difficulties, and the characters we are dealing with here lived 5-6 times as long ago as Shakespeare did, speaking languages much less extensively documented. We are going to struggle to recapture the exact sounds that contemporaries uttered when they spoke these names, that is clear.
Wikipedia tells us that Hezekiah is more properly transliterated as 'Hizkiyyahu'. It seems clear to me that our standard practice of making the 'i' of 'iah' part of the syllable with a preceding consonant (or even part of a diphthong with a preceding vowel as in 'Isaiah') is unlikely to reflect OP at all accurately. Should we be breaking all these names up differently - i-Sa-Yah, Dze-rem-Yah, He-zek-Yah, etc.?
An minor point that occurs to me - Hezekiah and Ezekiel - these must be essentially the same name, I think? 'Iah' = 'Yahweh', 'El' = 'El', and the opening 'H' is sometimes omitted.
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 29 text
2 Chronicles 30 text
2 Chronicles 31 text
2 Chronicles 32 text
Compare 2 Kings 18, 2 Kings 19, 2 Kings 20
Highlights
- Hezekiah reigns, and Assyria moves against Judah
Summary
Ch. 29
- Hezekiah puts Yahweh-worship centre-stage
- He has the temple restored
- He has it reconsecrated
Ch. 30
- Hezekiah sends messengers throughout Israel and Judah to implore the people to observe the Passover in Jerusalem
- Some respond by attending, some find it ridiculous and ignore it
- It is emphasised that this last previously happened under David, centuries before
Ch. 31
- Symbols of other religions destroyed throughout Judah on Hezekiah's orders
- Resurrection of the tithing system of taxes
- Consecration of more priests
Ch. 32
- Assyria under Sennacherib invades Judah (Israel having fallen already)
- Hezekiah repairs and improves the battlements of Jerusalem and stops up local springs to deny the Assyrian army water
- Sennacherib delivers a message to Jerusalem, in which he points out the futility of opposing his superior forces and how others that have resisted were not aided by their religious convictions
- But Jerusalem is lucky - many die in the Assyrian camp, they return home, and Sennacherib is assassinated. Disaster is averted for now.
- Hezekiah becomes very ill, but recovers
- Hezekiah becomes rich and old, and dies
Questions and Observations
1) As we would expect from the Judah focus of the Chronicler, we skip over an event that is a key waymarker in the narrative of how Judah came to fall to Babylon - the fall of Israel to Assyria, which is given in 2 Kings 17. The installation of Hoshea as puppet king in Israel under Assyria's power, who then failed to tread astutely enough to please greater powers, mirrors almost exactly what we'll see repeated again shortly in Judah.
2) The content of chapters 30 and 31 is not found in Kings, at least in any detail.
3) Hezekiah's attempt to encourage Israel to offer him power is what provokes Sennacherib to invade Judah. This is the kind of ill-judged trouble-making that will see Judah annihilated before much longer. This is a useful piece of the puzzle - in Kings we were simply given to understand that Sennacherib attacked without explicitly stated motivation beyond that Hezekiah had "rebelled" against him - which didn't make entire sense of the face of things as Hezekiah was not prior to this his subject in any sense.
4) Kings has Hezekiah giving Sennacherib tribute; Chronicles omits this. There is also more detail in Kings about messages going back and forth to Sennacherib from his deputy Rabshakeh.
5) Whatever it was that decimated the Assyrians is still not clearly described - we wondered if it was some type of fast-acting sickness, maybe cholera connected to the blocked springs. Aside from the two Biblical accounts, there is also an account from the Assyrian side, which details Sennacherib's triumphant campaign in Judah. His interaction with Hezekiah is described thus: "As for the king of Judah, Hezekiah, who had not submitted to my authority, I besieged and captured forty-six of his fortified cities, along with many smaller towns, taken in battle with my battering rams. ... I took as plunder 200,150 people, both small and great, male and female, along with a great number of animals including horses, mules, donkeys, camels, oxen, and sheep. As for Hezekiah, I shut him up like a caged bird in his royal city of Jerusalem. I then constructed a series of fortresses around him, and I did not allow anyone to come out of the city gates. His towns which I captured I gave to the kings of Ashod, Ekron, and Gaza." The reason for raising the siege is not mentioned, and nor is the carnage described in the Biblical account. The political outcome of the battle as given by the estimable Wikipedia is that "Both sides claim victory; Kingdom of Judah subjugated; King Hezekiah of Judah remains in power". This was really the beginning of the end for Judah, although it took a long time coming, largely due to Babylon's internal rising against Assyria providing much more pressing concerns for the larger powers.
6) As in Kings, Sennacherib is depicted as returning home to be killed. But this is a considerable truncation of events - he was assassinated 24 years later.
7) Hezekiah's illness is still mysterious, and in fact Kings makes more of an effort than Chronicles at explaining it.
8) We are directed for more information on Hezekiah to "the vision of Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz, in the Book of the Kings of Judah and Israel". Is this the Book of Isaiah that we now have, or something else?
9) Omitted in Chronicles is the final Hezekiah episode given in Kings, where in his illness he is friendly with Babylonian envoys. This would also have been a political gamble, but this time one that paid off - Babylon was becoming ascendant, to eclipse Assyria shortly.
10) Given that Israel is now effectively no more, the foci of Kings and Chronicles now coincide.
2 Chronicles 30 text
2 Chronicles 31 text
2 Chronicles 32 text
Compare 2 Kings 18, 2 Kings 19, 2 Kings 20
Highlights
- Hezekiah reigns, and Assyria moves against Judah
Summary
Ch. 29
- Hezekiah puts Yahweh-worship centre-stage
- He has the temple restored
- He has it reconsecrated
Ch. 30
- Hezekiah sends messengers throughout Israel and Judah to implore the people to observe the Passover in Jerusalem
- Some respond by attending, some find it ridiculous and ignore it
- It is emphasised that this last previously happened under David, centuries before
Ch. 31
- Symbols of other religions destroyed throughout Judah on Hezekiah's orders
- Resurrection of the tithing system of taxes
- Consecration of more priests
Ch. 32
- Assyria under Sennacherib invades Judah (Israel having fallen already)
- Hezekiah repairs and improves the battlements of Jerusalem and stops up local springs to deny the Assyrian army water
- Sennacherib delivers a message to Jerusalem, in which he points out the futility of opposing his superior forces and how others that have resisted were not aided by their religious convictions
- But Jerusalem is lucky - many die in the Assyrian camp, they return home, and Sennacherib is assassinated. Disaster is averted for now.
- Hezekiah becomes very ill, but recovers
- Hezekiah becomes rich and old, and dies
Questions and Observations
1) As we would expect from the Judah focus of the Chronicler, we skip over an event that is a key waymarker in the narrative of how Judah came to fall to Babylon - the fall of Israel to Assyria, which is given in 2 Kings 17. The installation of Hoshea as puppet king in Israel under Assyria's power, who then failed to tread astutely enough to please greater powers, mirrors almost exactly what we'll see repeated again shortly in Judah.
2) The content of chapters 30 and 31 is not found in Kings, at least in any detail.
3) Hezekiah's attempt to encourage Israel to offer him power is what provokes Sennacherib to invade Judah. This is the kind of ill-judged trouble-making that will see Judah annihilated before much longer. This is a useful piece of the puzzle - in Kings we were simply given to understand that Sennacherib attacked without explicitly stated motivation beyond that Hezekiah had "rebelled" against him - which didn't make entire sense of the face of things as Hezekiah was not prior to this his subject in any sense.
4) Kings has Hezekiah giving Sennacherib tribute; Chronicles omits this. There is also more detail in Kings about messages going back and forth to Sennacherib from his deputy Rabshakeh.
5) Whatever it was that decimated the Assyrians is still not clearly described - we wondered if it was some type of fast-acting sickness, maybe cholera connected to the blocked springs. Aside from the two Biblical accounts, there is also an account from the Assyrian side, which details Sennacherib's triumphant campaign in Judah. His interaction with Hezekiah is described thus: "As for the king of Judah, Hezekiah, who had not submitted to my authority, I besieged and captured forty-six of his fortified cities, along with many smaller towns, taken in battle with my battering rams. ... I took as plunder 200,150 people, both small and great, male and female, along with a great number of animals including horses, mules, donkeys, camels, oxen, and sheep. As for Hezekiah, I shut him up like a caged bird in his royal city of Jerusalem. I then constructed a series of fortresses around him, and I did not allow anyone to come out of the city gates. His towns which I captured I gave to the kings of Ashod, Ekron, and Gaza." The reason for raising the siege is not mentioned, and nor is the carnage described in the Biblical account. The political outcome of the battle as given by the estimable Wikipedia is that "Both sides claim victory; Kingdom of Judah subjugated; King Hezekiah of Judah remains in power". This was really the beginning of the end for Judah, although it took a long time coming, largely due to Babylon's internal rising against Assyria providing much more pressing concerns for the larger powers.
6) As in Kings, Sennacherib is depicted as returning home to be killed. But this is a considerable truncation of events - he was assassinated 24 years later.
7) Hezekiah's illness is still mysterious, and in fact Kings makes more of an effort than Chronicles at explaining it.
8) We are directed for more information on Hezekiah to "the vision of Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz, in the Book of the Kings of Judah and Israel". Is this the Book of Isaiah that we now have, or something else?
9) Omitted in Chronicles is the final Hezekiah episode given in Kings, where in his illness he is friendly with Babylonian envoys. This would also have been a political gamble, but this time one that paid off - Babylon was becoming ascendant, to eclipse Assyria shortly.
10) Given that Israel is now effectively no more, the foci of Kings and Chronicles now coincide.
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 13, 2016, 01:32AMEnjoying quite how Ozzie it sounds when I say "Wulla" to myself instead of "Voila". Thanks for that.
glad to share some culture.
QuoteWhile we're talking about pronunciation, I've been wondering something about all these characters with Yahweh tribute names - those ending in 'iah'. There's a lot of them - Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hezekiah, Gedaliah, Zedekiah, Uzziah, Amaziah, Josiah, to pick the first handful that come to mind. In modern English we have very particular ways of pronouncing them which I think reflect nothing more than rather parochial older British speech patterns, e.g. i-Zai-yah. The stress seems to fall on the second syllable most of the time in the above list - I think only DZe-re-Mai-yah differs? Though I'm not 100% certain on how some of the less well known examples are usually said - he-Zee-kee-yah or He-zee-Kee-yah? I naturally go for the former, but I'm not sure about it...
OP ("Original Pronuncation") is an interesting field, and people have used it to perform e.g. Shakespeare as our best modern guesses at Elizabethan pronunciation direct us. But even that is rather fraught with difficulties, and the characters we are dealing with here lived 5-6 times as long ago as Shakespeare did, speaking languages much less extensively documented. We are going to struggle to recapture the exact sounds that contemporaries uttered when they spoke these names, that is clear.
Wikipedia tells us that Hezekiah is more properly transliterated as 'Hizkiyyahu'. It seems clear to me that our standard practice of making the 'i' of 'iah' part of the syllable with a preceding consonant (or even part of a diphthong with a preceding vowel as in 'Isaiah') is unlikely to reflect OP at all accurately. Should we be breaking all these names up differently - i-Sa-Yah, Dze-rem-Yah, He-zek-Yah, etc.?
An minor point that occurs to me - Hezekiah and Ezekiel - these must be essentially the same name, I think? 'Iah' = 'Yahweh', 'El' = 'El', and the opening 'H' is sometimes omitted.
I've don't remember having noticed that all the names had 'jah' in them, or that Hezekiah and Ezekiel were similar. You pay more attention than I.
glad to share some culture.
QuoteWhile we're talking about pronunciation, I've been wondering something about all these characters with Yahweh tribute names - those ending in 'iah'. There's a lot of them - Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hezekiah, Gedaliah, Zedekiah, Uzziah, Amaziah, Josiah, to pick the first handful that come to mind. In modern English we have very particular ways of pronouncing them which I think reflect nothing more than rather parochial older British speech patterns, e.g. i-Zai-yah. The stress seems to fall on the second syllable most of the time in the above list - I think only DZe-re-Mai-yah differs? Though I'm not 100% certain on how some of the less well known examples are usually said - he-Zee-kee-yah or He-zee-Kee-yah? I naturally go for the former, but I'm not sure about it...
OP ("Original Pronuncation") is an interesting field, and people have used it to perform e.g. Shakespeare as our best modern guesses at Elizabethan pronunciation direct us. But even that is rather fraught with difficulties, and the characters we are dealing with here lived 5-6 times as long ago as Shakespeare did, speaking languages much less extensively documented. We are going to struggle to recapture the exact sounds that contemporaries uttered when they spoke these names, that is clear.
Wikipedia tells us that Hezekiah is more properly transliterated as 'Hizkiyyahu'. It seems clear to me that our standard practice of making the 'i' of 'iah' part of the syllable with a preceding consonant (or even part of a diphthong with a preceding vowel as in 'Isaiah') is unlikely to reflect OP at all accurately. Should we be breaking all these names up differently - i-Sa-Yah, Dze-rem-Yah, He-zek-Yah, etc.?
An minor point that occurs to me - Hezekiah and Ezekiel - these must be essentially the same name, I think? 'Iah' = 'Yahweh', 'El' = 'El', and the opening 'H' is sometimes omitted.
I've don't remember having noticed that all the names had 'jah' in them, or that Hezekiah and Ezekiel were similar. You pay more attention than I.
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 13, 2016, 03:07AM8) We are directed for more information on Hezekiah to "the vision of Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz, in the Book of the Kings of Judah and Israel". Is this the Book of Isaiah that we now have, or something else?
Yep, its that book
Yep, its that book
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 33 text; compare 2 Kings 21
Highlights
- Manasseh reigns
- Amon reigns
Summary
- Manasseh succeeds Hezekiah
- He reverses his father's religious reforms enthusiastically
- Assyria attacks Judah, and Manasseh is captured and taken to Babylon, where he changes his mind, and plumps for Yahweh instead
- Manasseh returns and encourages Yahweh-worship, but does not discourage alternatives
- Manasseh dies after a very long reign, succeeded by his son Amon
- Amon has a short and unpopular reign; he is assassinated by his servants
Questions and Observations
1) We queried before whether "burn[ing] his sons" meant human sacrifice or something a bit less drastic. On the face of it, human sacrifice is what's meant.
2) Renouncing Hezekiah's politically risky Yahweh-pushing might have been a sound strategy to curry favour with Assyria or Babylonia. But was evidently not enough - Assyria still came for Manasseh.
3) There's something of a flavour of the very much later English reformation with these shifts back and forth - successive monarchs veering between opposite poles. Must have been a dangerous time to live in, even by the standards of the day.
4) The episode of Manasseh's captivity is mentioned by neither Kings nor Assyrian records. An invention/development of the Chronicler intended to show Yahweh overcoming?
That's 400 chapters covered now
Highlights
- Manasseh reigns
- Amon reigns
Summary
- Manasseh succeeds Hezekiah
- He reverses his father's religious reforms enthusiastically
- Assyria attacks Judah, and Manasseh is captured and taken to Babylon, where he changes his mind, and plumps for Yahweh instead
- Manasseh returns and encourages Yahweh-worship, but does not discourage alternatives
- Manasseh dies after a very long reign, succeeded by his son Amon
- Amon has a short and unpopular reign; he is assassinated by his servants
Questions and Observations
1) We queried before whether "burn[ing] his sons" meant human sacrifice or something a bit less drastic. On the face of it, human sacrifice is what's meant.
2) Renouncing Hezekiah's politically risky Yahweh-pushing might have been a sound strategy to curry favour with Assyria or Babylonia. But was evidently not enough - Assyria still came for Manasseh.
3) There's something of a flavour of the very much later English reformation with these shifts back and forth - successive monarchs veering between opposite poles. Must have been a dangerous time to live in, even by the standards of the day.
4) The episode of Manasseh's captivity is mentioned by neither Kings nor Assyrian records. An invention/development of the Chronicler intended to show Yahweh overcoming?
That's 400 chapters covered now
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 34 text
2 Chronicles 35 text
Highlights
- Josiah reigns
Summary
Chapter 34
- Josiah succeeds Amon and reigns for 31 years.
- He walked in the ways of David. He purged Judah of High Places and idols
- He ordered the repair of the Temple where they found a copy of The Law.
- He had the Law read to him and he was sorry for the wrongs that had been committed.
- The Prophet Huldah proclaims judgement on Judah for their sins
- God told him that because he had repented he would be go to his grave in peace.
- He recommitted himself and the people to God - and they behaved while he was alive.
Chapter 35
- Josiah kept a passover and celebrated it with all the people
- He provided sacrifices for those that needed them
- the celecbrated Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread for 7 days. This was the best Passover since the days of Samuel
- After this Josiah fought against Pharaoh Neco and was killed by an archer.
Questions and Observations
1)
2 Chronicles 35 text
Highlights
- Josiah reigns
Summary
Chapter 34
- Josiah succeeds Amon and reigns for 31 years.
- He walked in the ways of David. He purged Judah of High Places and idols
- He ordered the repair of the Temple where they found a copy of The Law.
- He had the Law read to him and he was sorry for the wrongs that had been committed.
- The Prophet Huldah proclaims judgement on Judah for their sins
- God told him that because he had repented he would be go to his grave in peace.
- He recommitted himself and the people to God - and they behaved while he was alive.
Chapter 35
- Josiah kept a passover and celebrated it with all the people
- He provided sacrifices for those that needed them
- the celecbrated Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread for 7 days. This was the best Passover since the days of Samuel
- After this Josiah fought against Pharaoh Neco and was killed by an archer.
Questions and Observations
1)
-
ttf_timothy42b
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: drizabone on Sep 13, 2016, 05:19AMYep, its that book
When we covered Isaiah in college they told us it should really be divided into Isaiah I and II, by separate authors. I vaguely remember reading more recently that it may actually be three.
When we covered Isaiah in college they told us it should really be divided into Isaiah I and II, by separate authors. I vaguely remember reading more recently that it may actually be three.
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: timothy42b on Sep 15, 2016, 04:41AMWhen we covered Isaiah in college they told us it should really be divided into Isaiah I and II, by separate authors. I vaguely remember reading more recently that it may actually be three.
So can we look forward to you helping out with the Isaiah trilogy Tim?
So can we look forward to you helping out with the Isaiah trilogy Tim?
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Would be excellent to get more hands on the tiller...
I think it's legitimate to take a moment to talk about Isaiah here - we'll be returning to this material for comparison purposes when we get around to the Book of Isaiah (and in other places too, I suspect).
Googling around for reliable sources, Wikipedia seemed flakier than it usually does - and indeed there's suspicion expressed on the talk page for the book that there are editors trying to shape the article to their own ends in defiance of scholarly opinion.
The US Conference of Catholic Bishops has a page on it that seems refreshingly free of the point-pushing style that blights many online pages that seek to explain these topics. It's nice to see that some parts of the Catholic church at least are willing to look head on at the various composition topics and controversies of its holy book - its conclusions seem based in rationality, in contrast to many online references that one can find, which are more concerned with pushing the particular preconceptions of the author.
It lays out three stages of the Book of Isaiah:
1) "Proto-Isaiah", chapters 1-39, writings of Isaiah framed in later sermons, ranging in date from Isaiah's era on towards the exile
2) "Deutero-Isaiah", chapters 40-55, writings of another author during the exile
3) "Trito-Isaiah", chapters 56-66, writing of further authors after the exile
I think it's legitimate to take a moment to talk about Isaiah here - we'll be returning to this material for comparison purposes when we get around to the Book of Isaiah (and in other places too, I suspect).
Googling around for reliable sources, Wikipedia seemed flakier than it usually does - and indeed there's suspicion expressed on the talk page for the book that there are editors trying to shape the article to their own ends in defiance of scholarly opinion.
The US Conference of Catholic Bishops has a page on it that seems refreshingly free of the point-pushing style that blights many online pages that seek to explain these topics. It's nice to see that some parts of the Catholic church at least are willing to look head on at the various composition topics and controversies of its holy book - its conclusions seem based in rationality, in contrast to many online references that one can find, which are more concerned with pushing the particular preconceptions of the author.
It lays out three stages of the Book of Isaiah:
1) "Proto-Isaiah", chapters 1-39, writings of Isaiah framed in later sermons, ranging in date from Isaiah's era on towards the exile
2) "Deutero-Isaiah", chapters 40-55, writings of another author during the exile
3) "Trito-Isaiah", chapters 56-66, writing of further authors after the exile
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
2 Chronicles 36 text
Highlights
- The end of Judah, and new beginning
Summary
- Jehoahaz succeeds Josiah as his son
- Egypt deposes Jehoahaz, taking him to Egypt, and replaces him with his brother Jehoiakin
- Babylon captures Jehoiakin, taking him to Babylon
- He is replaced as king by his son Jehoiachin, who shortly after is also taken captive to Babylon
- Babylon installs his brother Zedekiah as king
- Zedekiah rebels against Babylon, and this time they've had enough
- They turn up on the doorstep, sack the place, and carry off the native population to exile in Babylon
- But... spoilers... Babylon doesn't last forever, and falls to Persia a couple of generations later. Cyrus of Persia feels differently about Judah than Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon did, and the exiles get to go home.
Questions and Observations
1) This is the endgame - crushed between two opposing stronger powers, Judah's flame sparks out. Josiah's allegiance to Babylon ultimately undoes everything, politically sensible though it would have been when made.
2) The final lines are pretty much the only truly new material for us that we've seen in Chronicles, barring clarifications. Kings ends with some greater detail on the fall of Judah and a postscript on the decades-later release of Jehoiachin from prison in Babylon, whereas Chronicles tells us that the exile is ending.
3) Cyrus captured Babylon in 539 BC. A chronology of these events is given here. Note that we've already been told about some returnees in 1 Chronicles 9.
Highlights
- The end of Judah, and new beginning
Summary
- Jehoahaz succeeds Josiah as his son
- Egypt deposes Jehoahaz, taking him to Egypt, and replaces him with his brother Jehoiakin
- Babylon captures Jehoiakin, taking him to Babylon
- He is replaced as king by his son Jehoiachin, who shortly after is also taken captive to Babylon
- Babylon installs his brother Zedekiah as king
- Zedekiah rebels against Babylon, and this time they've had enough
- They turn up on the doorstep, sack the place, and carry off the native population to exile in Babylon
- But... spoilers... Babylon doesn't last forever, and falls to Persia a couple of generations later. Cyrus of Persia feels differently about Judah than Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon did, and the exiles get to go home.
Questions and Observations
1) This is the endgame - crushed between two opposing stronger powers, Judah's flame sparks out. Josiah's allegiance to Babylon ultimately undoes everything, politically sensible though it would have been when made.
2) The final lines are pretty much the only truly new material for us that we've seen in Chronicles, barring clarifications. Kings ends with some greater detail on the fall of Judah and a postscript on the decades-later release of Jehoiachin from prison in Babylon, whereas Chronicles tells us that the exile is ending.
3) Cyrus captured Babylon in 539 BC. A chronology of these events is given here. Note that we've already been told about some returnees in 1 Chronicles 9.
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
In preface, the Deuteronomistic History:
Quote from: MoominDave on Aug 27, 2016, 01:23AMIn preface, the Tetrateuch:
Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:58PMGenesis
1 Chronicles
Quote from: MoominDave on Aug 27, 2016, 01:23AMIn preface, the Tetrateuch:
Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:58PMGenesis
- [li]Big picture stuff
- [li]Creation; Adam & Eve[/li][li]Humans, take 1; Cain & Abel, Noah[/li][li]The Flood; Wash everything away, start again[/li][li]Humans, take 2[/li]
- [li]New scene, three generations on - Israelites now of low status in Egypt[/li][li]Moses grows up, fights battle of wills with Pharoah over plagues, leads Israelites to depart[/li][li]Wandering, take 1; through the desert to Mt. Sinai, where they make a long camp and...[/li]
- [li]...many laws are given[/li]
- [li]Wandering, take 2; they reach their destination, but are too weak to attempt the task, and so...[/li][li]Wandering, take 3; more pootling around, building up military prowess over the years in the preparation for invasion; new leaders emerge, and they finish on the brink of their destination again[/li]
- [li]Moses orates; recap of terms and conditions, forward planning[/li][li]Moses dies[/li]
- [li]Conquest of Canaan under Joshua[/li][li]Division of conquered land between the tribes, East and West banks of the Jordan[/li]
- [li]Prologue: Messy details of attempted not-always-successful conquest, compare with previous book[/li][li]An intermittent sequence of Judges leads: Othniel, Ehud, Shamgar, Deborah, Gideon, Tola, Jair, Jephthah, Ibzan, Elon, Abdon, Samson[/li][li]The Dan tribe take territory in the North and the Benjamin tribe are defeated by the other tribes[/li]
- [li]Intermezzo: Heartwarming tale of a family coming through hard times in the era of the Judges[/li]
- [li]Samuel is a priestly leader in a time of Philistine conflicts who needs a worthy successor[/li][li]Saul is appointed to the new role of king and with his son Jonathan defeats the Ammonites, Philistines, Amalekites, but he falls out with Samuel, who anoints David as a replacement king secretly[/li][li]David (a military hero) and Saul vie for superiority over a long period, eventually brought to an end when the Philistines kill Saul in battle[/li]
- [li]The kingdom nearly splits, but David unites it, doing many heroic deeds[/li][li]But in time he becomes morally suspect and manipulated by schemers[/li]
- [li]David dies, succeeded by Solomon, who consolidates his power base brutally but gains great wealth and a reputation for great wisdom, building the "first temple" and a palace; however, like David he becomes morally suspect in time[/li][li]After he dies, the kingdom is split into Israel (larger Northern portion) and Judah (smaller Southern portion), and the continual inference is that Judah is the legitimate one of the two[/li][li]Kings succeed in both Israel and Judah; Elijah gains prominence as a prophet[/li]
- [li]Long successions of kings of both Israel and Judah are described, and the prophet Elisha comes to prominence[/li][li]Most kings do not prioritise Yahweh-worship - none in Israel, but some in Judah.
[/li][li]First Israel then Judah are unable to tread the difficult path of negotiation between stronger powers on either side, with both populations destroyed and exiled by 586 BC[/li]
1 Chronicles
- [li]Recap of genealogy to the beginning[/li][li]Return of some exiles to Judah
[/li][li]Recap of Samuel written to favour David more highly- [li]David secures the AotC[/li][li]David breeds[/li][li]David defeats enemies[/li][li]David arranges for Solomon to build the temple[/li]
- [li]Recap of Kings with only the Judah parts and a focus on relations with Yahweh
- [li]Solomon builds the temple and is great[/li][li]Kingdom splits[/li][li]Long succession of kings, some good, some bad[/li][li]Judah squashed between Babylon and Egypt, falls to Babylon; population deported to exile[/li]
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Ezra 1 text
Highlights
- Cyrus of Persia decrees that the long-exiled people of Judah can go home
Summary
- Cyrus commands that the exiled people of Jerusalem return and rebuild their religious foundation
- People volunteer to return, and money and goods are raised to enable them to travel
- Cyrus returns goods that Nebuchadnezzar looted from the temple at Jerusalem
Questions and Observations
1) New scene - picking up at the brief mention at the end of Chronicles, we are now post-exile. The half-century long exilic period is seemingly skipped over - but we will be returning to it later in the works of the prophets.
2) In the interim, great empires have waxed and waned - Babylon has declined and fallen to a suddenly-rising new power, the vast Achaemenid Empire, under its ruler Cyrus the Great. A lot of very interesting historical material has been jumped over in this narrative.
3) The author gives "In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia". Evidently this should be understood as the first year that Cyrus controlled the Babylonian Empire (539 BC), not the first year that he ruled anywhere (Media in 559 BC). The beginning of the return is conventionally dated to 538 BC.
4) Judah and Benjamin tribal leaders are specifically singled out. Judah has of course been politically strong in recent narrative, but the last I remember hearing of Benjamin was their subjugation by the other tribes in Judges 20. Is this a renaissance for them?
5) The identity of Sheshbazzar, "prince of Judah", is unclear. Here's a hypothesis. On first glance, it does look a very Babylonian name, with that 'zar' ending - but that ending simply means 'king', so maybe it's not a surprise that a Babylon-based prince of another land would be known by a name that ended in it.
6) Intriguingly, the text that ends Chronicles is near-identical to the text that opens Ezra.
7) This book is very clear that Cyrus issued a proclamation, and that he couched it in explicitly Yahwist language as deference to the people of Judah. The former seems reasonable, the latter a large and unlikely stretch. Although we still have what looks like the proclamation referred to, it only seems to prescribe repatriation in general terms, and certainly doesn't exalt Yahweh - on the contrary, the document is framed in terms of the Mesopotamian god Marduk.
Highlights
- Cyrus of Persia decrees that the long-exiled people of Judah can go home
Summary
- Cyrus commands that the exiled people of Jerusalem return and rebuild their religious foundation
- People volunteer to return, and money and goods are raised to enable them to travel
- Cyrus returns goods that Nebuchadnezzar looted from the temple at Jerusalem
Questions and Observations
1) New scene - picking up at the brief mention at the end of Chronicles, we are now post-exile. The half-century long exilic period is seemingly skipped over - but we will be returning to it later in the works of the prophets.
2) In the interim, great empires have waxed and waned - Babylon has declined and fallen to a suddenly-rising new power, the vast Achaemenid Empire, under its ruler Cyrus the Great. A lot of very interesting historical material has been jumped over in this narrative.
3) The author gives "In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia". Evidently this should be understood as the first year that Cyrus controlled the Babylonian Empire (539 BC), not the first year that he ruled anywhere (Media in 559 BC). The beginning of the return is conventionally dated to 538 BC.
4) Judah and Benjamin tribal leaders are specifically singled out. Judah has of course been politically strong in recent narrative, but the last I remember hearing of Benjamin was their subjugation by the other tribes in Judges 20. Is this a renaissance for them?
5) The identity of Sheshbazzar, "prince of Judah", is unclear. Here's a hypothesis. On first glance, it does look a very Babylonian name, with that 'zar' ending - but that ending simply means 'king', so maybe it's not a surprise that a Babylon-based prince of another land would be known by a name that ended in it.
6) Intriguingly, the text that ends Chronicles is near-identical to the text that opens Ezra.
- [li]Chronicles: Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom and also put it in writing: Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever is among you of all his people, may the Lord his God be with him. Let him go up.[/li][li]Ezra: In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom and also put it in writing: Thus says Cyrus king of Persia: The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever is among you of all his people, may his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem[/li]
7) This book is very clear that Cyrus issued a proclamation, and that he couched it in explicitly Yahwist language as deference to the people of Judah. The former seems reasonable, the latter a large and unlikely stretch. Although we still have what looks like the proclamation referred to, it only seems to prescribe repatriation in general terms, and certainly doesn't exalt Yahweh - on the contrary, the document is framed in terms of the Mesopotamian god Marduk.
-
ttf_timothy42b
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Interesting. Cyrus invaded India at the same time, although I think later Persian kings conquered more of it. My memory says the Persians encouraged religions that required obedience to rulers, and acceptance of their fate.
Kipling (IIRC) wrote: Them that takes cakes, that the Parsee man bakes, makes dreadful mistakes. Parsee of course being the term for a Persian influenced religious follower.
Kipling (IIRC) wrote: Them that takes cakes, that the Parsee man bakes, makes dreadful mistakes. Parsee of course being the term for a Persian influenced religious follower.
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Ezra 2 text
Highlights
- Who came back
Summary
- The list of VIP's who returned
- Then we have a number list of family groups who returned.
- And then the priests, the Levites, temple servants and the sons of Solomons servants, and some people who couldn't verify thie descent.
- There was 42,360 people, 736 horses, 245 mules, 435 camels and 6720 donkeys.
Questions and Observations
1) I recognize Mordecai from the book of Esther. I wonder if they are the same person? I expect the Mordecai of Esther would have returned as a VIP so think its likely they are.
2) We've met Baanah before, but he was a contemporary of David, so they are probably not the same.
3) The numbers look realistic now.
4) I think it was only people exiled from Judah who returned. The 10 tribes from the Northern Kingdom got lost.
Highlights
- Who came back
Summary
- The list of VIP's who returned
- Then we have a number list of family groups who returned.
- And then the priests, the Levites, temple servants and the sons of Solomons servants, and some people who couldn't verify thie descent.
- There was 42,360 people, 736 horses, 245 mules, 435 camels and 6720 donkeys.
Questions and Observations
1) I recognize Mordecai from the book of Esther. I wonder if they are the same person? I expect the Mordecai of Esther would have returned as a VIP so think its likely they are.
2) We've met Baanah before, but he was a contemporary of David, so they are probably not the same.
3) The numbers look realistic now.
4) I think it was only people exiled from Judah who returned. The 10 tribes from the Northern Kingdom got lost.
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: drizabone on Sep 15, 2016, 08:33PM1) I recognize Mordecai from the book of Esther. I wonder if they are the same person? I expect the Mordecai of Esther would have returned as a VIP so think its likely they are.
It seems possible, but I don't think we can be sure. The Mordecai in Esther is an important personage, as must have been the Mordecai listed here. Was it a common enough name to have independently belonged to two separate important personages in the Babylonian Judah diaspora?
The Wikipedia article on him has some interesting musings about its meaning. Noting that Daniel tells us that it wasn't uncommon for Judah exiles to be given names relating to Babylonian gods, it mentions the important god Marduk, patron deity of the city of Babylon, suggesting that "Mordecai" is most likely an Aramaic rendering of "follower of Marduk". It also supplies some other hypotheses, but gives this one precedence. In this light, it is a name that could and did crop up for several individuals related to Persian courts over the years.
If this is the accurate explanation for the name, it seems ironic that Mordecai is still used as a Hebrew name today. Marduk being long forgotten, and any godly associations intended being presumably with Yahweh.
Getting away from etymology, another (perhaps obvious) point that that article makes that's worth noting is that the Mordecai of Esther did not live in the city of Babylon itself. I have tended to think of the exile to Babylon as being to Babylon the city, but it makes much more sense for it to have been to Babylon the country. Spread out the large influx of incoming expatriates.
Quote from: drizabone on Sep 15, 2016, 08:33PM3) The numbers look realistic now.
By now it seems to me that we are dealing with basically reliable historical documents. We can read these quite straightforwardly, in contrast to the accounts of earlier days; the events being narrated being witnessed by the writers (or at least not too far off this). Writers soon after exile writing about the exile = pretty likely to make a good job of it. Writers in exile writing about the doings of people hundreds and thousands of years beforehand = pretty unlikely to make a good job of it. We've gradually traced an arc of increasing reliability from almost zero in the early books to our current position of relative strength.
Quote from: drizabone on Sep 15, 2016, 08:33PM4) I think it was only people exiled from Judah who returned. The 10 tribes from the Northern Kingdom got lost.
Some thoughts relating to this:
It seems possible, but I don't think we can be sure. The Mordecai in Esther is an important personage, as must have been the Mordecai listed here. Was it a common enough name to have independently belonged to two separate important personages in the Babylonian Judah diaspora?
The Wikipedia article on him has some interesting musings about its meaning. Noting that Daniel tells us that it wasn't uncommon for Judah exiles to be given names relating to Babylonian gods, it mentions the important god Marduk, patron deity of the city of Babylon, suggesting that "Mordecai" is most likely an Aramaic rendering of "follower of Marduk". It also supplies some other hypotheses, but gives this one precedence. In this light, it is a name that could and did crop up for several individuals related to Persian courts over the years.
If this is the accurate explanation for the name, it seems ironic that Mordecai is still used as a Hebrew name today. Marduk being long forgotten, and any godly associations intended being presumably with Yahweh.
Getting away from etymology, another (perhaps obvious) point that that article makes that's worth noting is that the Mordecai of Esther did not live in the city of Babylon itself. I have tended to think of the exile to Babylon as being to Babylon the city, but it makes much more sense for it to have been to Babylon the country. Spread out the large influx of incoming expatriates.
Quote from: drizabone on Sep 15, 2016, 08:33PM3) The numbers look realistic now.
By now it seems to me that we are dealing with basically reliable historical documents. We can read these quite straightforwardly, in contrast to the accounts of earlier days; the events being narrated being witnessed by the writers (or at least not too far off this). Writers soon after exile writing about the exile = pretty likely to make a good job of it. Writers in exile writing about the doings of people hundreds and thousands of years beforehand = pretty unlikely to make a good job of it. We've gradually traced an arc of increasing reliability from almost zero in the early books to our current position of relative strength.
Quote from: drizabone on Sep 15, 2016, 08:33PM4) I think it was only people exiled from Judah who returned. The 10 tribes from the Northern Kingdom got lost.
Some thoughts relating to this:
- [li]The deportations did not empty the country completely; that would have been logistically impossible to organise. We can see this from the fact that Hezekiah of Judah, a century after the Assyrian deportation, knew that there were people in the old Northern kingdom area to respond to his call to rally to his Israelite religious reforms. It seems that the ten 'lost' tribes did not disappear from Israel. Note that quite a few of the Northern tribes are referenced by name in the passage regarding Hezekiah's actions in 2 Chronicles 31. [/li][li]However, the Assyrian approach to the eradication of Israel differed from the Babylonian approach to the eradication of Judah in an important way: They replaced deported residents with settlers from elsewhere in their empire; the area was kept populated and productive. This is the ethnic mix that is thought to have given rise to the Samaritans shortly after. The aftermath of the Babylonian deportation in Judah seems to have been a depopulated time of chaos.[/li][li]This meant that there was no blank space on the map for exiles to return to in a big set-piece manoeuvre. I daresay some did return over the years, but there's no big narrative element as seen for Judah in Ezra.[/li][li]And neither was there an equivalent proclamation of repatriation such as the one made by Persia on conquering Babylon. I imagine that Babylon, being a near neighbour and historical competitor, would not have seen the benefit of building up a new version of an old enemy when they conquered Assyria.[/li][li]The Assyrian exile took place in the late 700s BC, the Babylonian exile in the early 500s BC. The return of Judah took place in the mid 500s BC - there would have been plenty of people that witnessed the exile of Judah from start to end. In contrast, the exile of Israel was nearly 200 years past at the time of Cyrus's proclamation; long-dead history. Though given quite how astonishingly tenacious later history showed Jewish culture to be capable of being in exile, maybe a couple of centuries isn't that long a span...[/li][li]2 Chronicles 15 tells us that the tribes of Ephraim, Manasseh, and Simeon moved to Judah during the earlier reign of King Asa of Judah. It doesn't tell us if they ever moved back.[/li][li]With Babylon having conquered Assyria, presumably exiled Israelites became de facto Babylonian citizens. It doesn't seem improbable that some also took advantage of the chance to move back West.[/li]
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Ezra 3 text
Highlights
- Rebuilding religious things
Summary
- The feasts of the seventh month come around, and the returnees gather in Jerusalem.
- They replace the altar, and sacrifice on it according to their laws. However, there is no temple.
- Money is raised to rebuild the temple, and organisations set in hand under Zerubbabel.
- The foundations of the "second temple" are laid.
Questions and Observations
1) The temple is viewed as essential now. It wasn't held so for a long time, prior to Solomon.
2) Zerubbabel was the grandson of the exiled king Jehoiachin. He may also have been the "Sheshbazzar" mentioned in Ezra 1 - or that might have been his uncle Shenazzar.
Highlights
- Rebuilding religious things
Summary
- The feasts of the seventh month come around, and the returnees gather in Jerusalem.
- They replace the altar, and sacrifice on it according to their laws. However, there is no temple.
- Money is raised to rebuild the temple, and organisations set in hand under Zerubbabel.
- The foundations of the "second temple" are laid.
Questions and Observations
1) The temple is viewed as essential now. It wasn't held so for a long time, prior to Solomon.
2) Zerubbabel was the grandson of the exiled king Jehoiachin. He may also have been the "Sheshbazzar" mentioned in Ezra 1 - or that might have been his uncle Shenazzar.
-
ttf_drizabone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 16, 2016, 07:07AM1) The temple is viewed as essential now. It wasn't held so for a long time, prior to Solomon.
Interesting comment. It made me think
As I see it:
- Israel became God's people at Sinai when God made a covenant with them and started hanging out with them in the wilderness. God lived with them in the Tent then, and while the conquered Israel.
- Then Solomon built the temple as God's home with them.
- Then the exile where they were no longer in the promised land, a consequence of them breaking the covenant - the temple was destroyed: God wasn't living with them then - and in a sense during this period I think that they were not God's people
- Then they returned to Israel. It seems that God has forgiven them, and they are once again "his people", so they want to rebuild God's house so that he can live with them again.
Interesting comment. It made me think
As I see it:
- Israel became God's people at Sinai when God made a covenant with them and started hanging out with them in the wilderness. God lived with them in the Tent then, and while the conquered Israel.
- Then Solomon built the temple as God's home with them.
- Then the exile where they were no longer in the promised land, a consequence of them breaking the covenant - the temple was destroyed: God wasn't living with them then - and in a sense during this period I think that they were not God's people
- Then they returned to Israel. It seems that God has forgiven them, and they are once again "his people", so they want to rebuild God's house so that he can live with them again.