Earl Williams Trombone

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sun May 01, 2011 9:20 pm

Don...

Hopefully John Noxon will stick his head in and comment on your horn, but it certainly looks pre-WWII to me. Looks very nice.

ttf_TromboneMonkey · Post by **ttf_TromboneMonkey** » Sun May 01, 2011 11:55 pm

Quote from: Dan Martin on May 01, 2011, 09:43AM Earl WAS AN ARTIST!!!!!!!!! Respect that!!!!!!

So is Mr. Corrigan, in my opinion, based on having had the opportunity to see his work. I'm pretty sure, based on the description of the horn, that Mr. Corrigan has nothing BUT respect for Mr. Williams' legacy.

ttf_Piano man · Post by **ttf_Piano man** » Mon May 02, 2011 1:18 am

QuoteI just think this horn can't be called an Earl Williams horn. In fact I don't think the ones made after he died can be called Earl Williams horns.
I don't think you have to retire the name after the founder dies. That would get rid of a lot of great instrument brands.

ttf_TromboneMonkey · Post by **ttf_TromboneMonkey** » Mon May 02, 2011 1:30 am

Quote from: Piano man on May 02, 2011, 01:18AMI don't think you have to retire the name after the founder dies. That would get rid of a lot of great instrument brands.

A good point. Was Vincent Bach any less of an artist? I'm pretty sure that he would have been pretty dark about some of the axes that were put out with his name on them.

ttf_Piano man · Post by **ttf_Piano man** » Mon May 02, 2011 2:13 am

Quote from: TromboneMonkey on May 02, 2011, 01:30AMA good point. Was Vincent Bach any less of an artist? I'm pretty sure that he would have been pretty dark about some of the axes that were put out with his name on them.

That's what I thought.

C.G. Conn died in 1931. I'm almost sure that some passably good Conn trombones were made after that.

ttf_dcornutt · Post by **ttf_dcornutt** » Mon May 02, 2011 3:58 am

Quote from: JohnL on May 01, 2011, 09:20PMDon...

Hopefully John Noxon will stick his head in and comment on your horn, but it certainly looks pre-WWII to me. Looks very nice.
Thanks John. John Noxon and I have been trading some pics and info for a couple of days. He is a wonderful source of information. He thinks it might be a very early 4 just after WWII. Manfred Schmeltzer in Germany sold the horn at some point and supposedly used it for his #1. (That one to me is basically a Williams 6 in specs. A great blowing horn btw.) He is helping me also. I don't think he copied this horn exactly because the bore seems to be a little less than .500. Anyway, this is just for kicks. The horn plays wonderfully and I am not looking to part with it.
Don

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon May 02, 2011 6:01 am

Don,
I suspect your horn is much like one of mine (except mine is brass).
Mine is pre WWII, made in LA.
The bore is .491, and though mine is not marked "Model 4", it's more than likely the precursor (or it just got through without being stamped) "Model 4".

Very nice horn !

T.

ttf_dcornutt · Post by **ttf_dcornutt** » Mon May 02, 2011 6:11 am

Tsmart,

Does your horn have anything stamped on the neck of the bell at the bottom?
Gorgeous horn.

I found out today that my horn was overhauled and gold plated in Germany in the 1980's by Manfred Schmelzer.
So my gold plating was done after the fact.

He bought it from somebody's garage in Nevada.

Thanks,

Don

Quote from: tsmart on May 02, 2011, 06:01AMDon,
I suspect your horn is much like one of mine (except mine is brass).
Mine is pre WWII, made in LA.
The bore is .491, and though mine is not marked "Model 4", it's more than likely the precursor (or it just got through without being stamped) "Model 4".

Very nice horn !

T.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon May 02, 2011 6:36 am

Quote from: dcornutt on May 02, 2011, 06:11AMTsmart,

Does your horn have anything stamped on the neck of the bell at the bottom?
Gorgeous horn.

I found out today that my horn was overhauled and gold plated in Germany in the 1980's by Manfred Schmelzer.
So my gold plating was done after the fact.

He bought it from somebody's garage in Nevada.

Thanks,

Don
The only thing stamped, is a letter "M", and the serial number 687.

I bought mine in Jacksonville, Fla.
An old lady bought it at a yard sale, with plans to make a wall hanger out of it.
It sat in the garage, until she got tired of looking at it - it never made it up on the wall.

I bought it, polished it, had it chem cleaned - and started playing it.
The inner slide tubes were dirty, and has some plating loss.
But the more I play it and clean it - the slicker it gets over time.
The slide (when freshly cleaned), is a VERY solid 9 (on a scale of 1-10) - even though the inner tubes still look a little nasty from some plating loss.

My brass tech has a cheap caliper, and I thought mine was a .480 bore for almost a year. Then I met Doug Elliot when his group (The Artie Shaw Orchestra) was playing in Belmont, NC. He measured it with a specific caliper, and confirmed it was a .491 bore (model 4). To my amazement, he also played my horn during their concert and switched back and forth with his LA Williams 6. It was pretty awesome, and Doug is a GREAT person (and fun to be around).

Check your bore size, if you can get someone with a good caliper. Dan Martin also has one that looks like mine (and yours), but his is a Model 8 (.522 bore I think).

The Williams horns are awesome players! Congrats on your horn!

T.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon May 02, 2011 6:38 am

Is yours tuning in slide? or tuning in Bell?
Do you have a slide lock??

Mine's fricton fit, no slide lock, and tuning in slide.

T.

ttf_dcornutt · Post by **ttf_dcornutt** » Mon May 02, 2011 8:03 am

Quote from: tsmart on May 02, 2011, 06:38AMIs yours tuning in slide? or tuning in Bell?
Do you have a slide lock??

Mine's fricton fit, no slide lock, and tuning in slide.

T.

T,
Mine is press fit/friction fit, no slide lock and tuning in the bell. That is the reason I think John thought this might be a post WW II early model. Not sure when he stopped putting the tuning in the slide.
Don

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon May 02, 2011 8:07 am

Quote from: dcornutt on May 02, 2011, 08:03AMT,
Mine is press fit/friction fit, no slide lock and tuning in the bell. That is the reason I think John thought this might be a post WW II early model. Not sure when he stopped putting the tuning in the slide.
Don

Kinda ironic...
I just bought a Willams & Wallace (late 20's made by Earl), that is tuning in bell. He did make earlier tuning in bell horns, but my later one is the tuning in slide (I like the tuning in bell better myself).

Look at the Bravheart thread.
It's my newest Williams purchase (number 2).

T.

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Mon May 02, 2011 8:08 am

Don,

Whats your serial number if you don't mind. I have one very similar that is 697. Just wondering where yours falls.

ttf_dcornutt · Post by **ttf_dcornutt** » Mon May 02, 2011 8:55 am

Quote from: Dan Martin on May 02, 2011, 08:08AMDon,

Whats your serial number if you don't mind. I have one very similar that is 697. Just wondering where yours falls.
20

Don

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon May 02, 2011 9:07 am

20?

If Noxon thinks it's a post WWII horn, then maybe Earl started over on serial numbers after the war.

My 4 is 687.
Dan's 8 is 697.

My Williams & Wallace (late 20's) is 90 something....

I think I read somewhere that Koda & Dave Ashely both have a Williams 6, and both has the same serial number...
They jump around a lot.

T.

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Mon May 02, 2011 9:24 am

I wonder if Don would take 3000 dollars for his horn?

ttf_dcornutt · Post by **ttf_dcornutt** » Mon May 02, 2011 9:30 am

Quote from: Dan Martin on May 02, 2011, 09:24AMI wonder if Don would take 3000 dollars for his horn?

Dan,
No. I don't want to sell it under any circumstances.

:
I really don't know when this horn was made. John was making an educated guess that it was probably after WWII because of the engraving. I don't think John had seen a stamped number like this on the neck. 20 . There are no other serial numbers. The slide has a patent number only. I have always thought that this horn was probably made for a specific player. That might be why the number is so strange on the neck.
It is a wonderful horn.
Don

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Mon May 02, 2011 9:35 am

My number is in the same place. Where the bell connects to the slide. Why do you think that is strange? I believe thats where they are supposed to be.

This is the c/w

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon May 02, 2011 9:50 am

Quote from: dcornutt on May 02, 2011, 09:30AMJohn was making an educated guess
John Noxon knows more about them than anyone live IMHO, so he's more than likely "spot on".

T.

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Sun May 08, 2011 12:40 am

picked up my 7 today from the post office that john sandhagen was working on. the horn is amazing and looks great! Kanstul did an excellent job with the lacquer job!

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Sun May 08, 2011 2:36 am

Congratulations!!!

Aloha,
Richard

ttf_baileyman · Post by **ttf_baileyman** » Thu May 26, 2011 2:46 pm

Is this Kid Ory playing a Williams?

http://cgi.ebay.com/KID-ORY-Trombone-Player-LIFE-MAGAZINE-PICTURE-CARD-/300561395876?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fadaf0a4#ht_996wt_913

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Thu May 26, 2011 2:59 pm

Yes

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Thu May 26, 2011 3:01 pm

Yes I am certain it is. He was a life long Williams player. His daughter had the horn stolen from here home about 10 years ago and did get it back. There was an article in the Deseret newspaper in Utah about the theft and return. She was very fortunate. Teagarden also always went back to Williams. Jack played anything anyone gave him, but always returned to Williams. Somewhere I also have a picture of Jack playing a "Strickler" trombone.

ttf_SilverBone · Post by **ttf_SilverBone** » Thu May 26, 2011 5:17 pm

Idea for the Williams website: A list of as many (reasonably famous - I don't count) players who regularly played Williams, along with photos of them doing so whenever possible.

In other words, John, grab a copy of that Kid Ory photo for the archive.

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Fri May 27, 2011 6:16 am

i could've sworn there was video on youtube of the buddy rich band (my buddy Nick on 4th trumpet) and the bone section (featuring a young conrad herwig) was blowing williams...

P.S.; Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml92frTqYk0

my favorite arrangement of that tune... buddy kicks ass.

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Fri May 27, 2011 8:49 am

Yeah Rick Stepton and Conrad were playing 6's. Conrad still has his. I'm guessing his new Rath is similar. My R10 was very Williams-like. Rick doesn't have that 6 anymore, but he has a gold plated 6 that Dick Nash picked for Bobby Burgess after Bobby's beloved Kenton "New Concepts" era 6H was ripped off.

There's another video of this same band playing this chart, only with better quality. It's on the Drum Channel's "Buddy Rich Up Close" preview on YouTube. I have the DVD, but despite the great bone section playing Williams, I think it should never have been released. Buddy would not have approved of the band's performance -- let's just leave it at that......

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Fri May 27, 2011 4:49 pm

what a great (and highly under-rated) bone section.

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Sat May 28, 2011 12:45 pm

Here's the better quality video of Stepton & Herwig on their 6's (at 3:41)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZitzjtJrVYo

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sat May 28, 2011 2:45 pm

Rick Stepton was so powerful and precise on lead... it's no wonder he lasted so long on Buddy's band.

ttf_baileyman · Post by **ttf_baileyman** » Sat May 28, 2011 6:11 pm

I heard Rick and that 6 last Friday in a Kenton tribute band. He had a good sound on lead. Of the five horns only 1, 2, and 5 came through. (Only 1 and 2 of the trumpets.) Later he complained about the three hour rehearsal earlier that day. (I thought someone should've been shot for that.) I told him he still had it, but he begged to differ.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:49 pm

Just put a Wallace by Williams on Ebay if any one is interested! Item number is 270764882969

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:55 pm

b-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:02 pm

Thank you so much! Time to thin out the herd a bit. Lets hope I get a buyer.

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:35 pm

Very nice, John. I'm almost surprised that the horn isn't headed for Hawaii.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:28 pm

So .... what else is in the herd?

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:39 pm

Just so I'm clear on this - the inners have stockings on both ends?

Maybe he thought it would help keep the slide aligned. Maybe he thought more mass at that spot would be helpful. The again, maybe the only cork barrels he had on hand were for a larger diameter inner tube.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:39 pm

uh... not possible to draw tubing with stockings at both ends. I couldn't tell what John meant about the stockings either, but I'm sure it's not that.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:25 am

Doug I am not sure what else I could call it. Both ends of the tubing are the same diameter and is a larger diameter the the center portion of the inner slide tube. The raise area on each end is about 3.5 inches. I have not measured the exact distance on either end. I would have to disassemble the inner to see if it went all the way to the end. You can kind of see what I mean in the pictures on Ebay. Very strange to me. But with Earl's gift for drawing tubing nothing would be impossible.

I wish I new what the reasoning was for this. The other horn is a lower serial number than this one, and was the same. they were about 10 numbers apart. Something he did early on? For what reason? I will get out the calipers and measure the diameter of both and the length as accurately as I can. I will post it later this morning. Got a couple horns I have to get out first.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:27 am

Ellrod PM sent

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:13 am

OK, I see it in the picture. Very odd.

Tubing is drawn over a mandrel, with a die that forms the outside diameter of the tube. You can't draw the middle of a tube smaller than both ends, as far as I know - you wouldn't be able to either start the draw or get the die off the tube. One end must be sleeves. I can see the structural advantage, making the grip area stronger and the whole inner slide less prone to bending or getting out of alignment.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:30 am

I agree with you Doug. Here is the actual measurements on the upper inner tube. The first 7.5 inches from the from the mouthpiece receiver is a diameter of .510 the next 17 inches is about .516 and the stocking is about .522 and is just short of 4.5 inches. I guess I was wrong, I was going by feel of the tube and the visible marks my eye was seeing. Still very odd why would he have drawn the tube in a 3 step diameter? On the Burbank and LA era horns the first 3.5 to 4 inches is a taper of about .0005. No one ever figured that out either. But it was willfully done. The other old Wallace measures the same way. But these are the only 2 horns I have seen this on, still a mystery. Something he and Spike came up with? Who knows......

I sure don't see any manufacturing advantage in this, what do you think? I am glad you commented it forced me to get out the calipers and really look at it. Learn something all the time! Now back to the school horns and rentals.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:36 am

Revised the Ebay listing to reflect the new information on the inner tubes.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:57 am

For comparison, my Model FOUR (Tennessee version) inner slide is .510 with a .522 stocking, and the I.D. of the outer slide is .529 giving a clearance of .007 which is pretty typical on these horns.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:23 pm

Nice horn John.

Good luck on the auction!

T.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:28 pm

My 4 measures out very similar to your Doug. My slide is a bit more worn from previous owners though. Still very different than a 3 step draw on the inner tube. Wish I knew why that was done. The logic behind it would be interesting to know.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:00 pm

"Because he could"

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:37 pm

That is a most likely explanation But he usually did it for a reason unknown to the rest of the world.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:05 pm

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jun 12, 2011, 11:39PMuh... not possible to draw tubing with stockings at both ends.I think it could be done, but you'd have to use a two-piece (maybe more) die that clamped down on the tube, possibly over a full-length mandrel rod. I wouldn't try to do it in one pass, either - it'd be back and forth several times, rotating the tube each time. Of course, once you've got it down, you can reduce the number of passes until you're doing just enough.

Be pretty labor-intensive, though.

John, is it possible one set of stockings is soldered on?

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:30 pm

Read the previous posts... The top "stocking" turned out to be smaller, not larger. The tube is drawn to three steps.

And I thought about the two-piece drawing die idea, but you wouldn't be able to get it started. It's hard enough to do some of these things, without making it impossible.