TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible

[ttf_drizabone]

1 Kings 3 text


Highlights

 - Solomon gets a wish and asks for wisdom.

Summary

 - Solomon makes an alliance with Egypt and marry's one of Pharaoh's daughters
 - He is preparing to build a palace for himself, a temple for the Lord and walls for the city
 - Solomon loved the Lord and made lots of sacrifices at the High Places.
 - After he sacrificed at Gibeon the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said he would grant Solomon one wish.
 - Solomon wished for wisdom so that he could discern between good and evil so that he could govern God's people well.
 - God was pretty pleased with that, so he gave him wisdom as well as riches and honour. And promised that if he kept his statutes like David did then he would lengthen his days as well.
 - Two prostitutes came to Solomon, both claiming a living baby as their own and a dead baby as the other's.
 - After fruitless arguing between teh two, Solomon said that he would cut the baby in two and give each half.
 - One of the prostitutes said "Fine" the other said "No don't kill him, give him to the other woman"
 - Solomon decided to give the baby to the woman that cared for him as she is the mother
 - Every one thought that Solomon was very wise.


Questions and Observations

1) It's a bit of a surprise to hear David described as someone who "walked before you in faithfulness, in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart toward you" when we can see how flawed he was.  I can see why he could be considered as a good example even despite his failings, but still...

[ttf_drizabone]

1 Kings 4 text


Highlights

 - All is good.

Summary

 - List of Solomon's main officials including 12 who collected "provisions" for the king (aka tax) from each tribe.
 - The people of Judah and Israel were many and lived in peace and happiness and plenty.
 - Solomon had a big empire, and Israel was at peace.  He had dominion over the neighbouring countries, who gave him tribute. He had a large mobile army with all the latest tech (aka chariots).
 - God gave Solomon wisdom, greater than any other, and people from all over came to hear it. He wrote proverbs and songs.

Questions and Observations

1) The Land was at Rest which is what God had promised.  This is biblical jargon for peace, happiness, contentment and safety.

2) Obviously nothing in this world is perfect (apart from maths) but this is the idealistic presentation. 

3) The king collected taxes, but there everyone had plenty, so I guess they didn't mind too much.  But there was a person in charge of forced labour.  That sounds not restful doesn't it?

[ttf_drizabone]

1 Kings 5 text


Highlights

 - Work starts on the temple

Summary

 - Hiram sent his servants to congratulate Solomon on his crowning because he was good mates with David.
 - Solomon responds with a big idea: "My dad wasn't able to build a temple to God because he was busy fighting enemies on all sides his whole life. But the Lord told him that I would build it, and since Israel's at peace, I think I'll get started. Since you guys are the best lumberjacks, what say you provide the cedar lumber we need?"
 - Hiram thinks that's a great idea, so he provides cedar and fir lumber in exchange for tons of wheat and oil. Thus, a great timber partnership is born. And there is much rejoicing. And they make a treaty too.
 - As temple construction ramps up, Solomon conscripts thousands of forced laborers to harvest and cut timber and quarry and cut stone.


Questions and Observations

1) Did we already know that David and Hiram were good mates?

2) Forced labour, building projects ...  sounds a bit like Egypt

[ttf_drizabone]

1 Kings 6 text

Highlights

 - Building up the temple

Summary

 - 480 years after Isreal leave Egypt Solomon starts building a house for the Lord, aka The Temple.
 - Its got a porch, a main room and a special room, an inner sanctuary called the Most Holy Place aka the Holy of Holies.
 - All the stone was covered in cedar and gold.
 - He made models of 2 cherubim in the Most Holy Place
 - There were smaller rooms around these main rooms.
 - He decorated the temple with pictures or cherubim, palm trees and open flowers
 - The temple took 7 years to build.

Questions and Observations

1) It was a Hebrew idiom to say the X of X to mean the best X or the Xiest X.  So the Holy of Holies meant the Holiest Place, the King of Kings meant the kingliest king.

2) Biblical Cherubim were not fat little babies with wings that shot arrows at you to fall in love.  They were creatures associated with the worship of God and were possibly at pretty high up in the angelica hierarchy of angels. They were the beings set to guard the entrance of Eden when Adam and Eve got evicted.  Ezekiel 1 and 10 describe them in pretty psychadelic terms, so I think that they are either indescribable or that Ezekiel was on something. They reappear in Revelation around Gods throne.

[ttf_drizabone]

1 Kings 7 text

Highlights

 - Solomon builds his house

Summary

 - Solomon built his house in 13 years.
 - It was bigger than God's house and more elaborate.
 - He used gold and cedar in it, as well as bronze, precious jewels.
 - He got Hiram from Tyre in to do the bronze work "he was full of wisdom, understanding, and skill for making any work in bronze"
 - There were ornate pillars with pomegranites carved into the capitals, and even a sea. And some elaborate stands for basins, that had wheels and axles.
 - Hiram also made the pots, shovels and basins for the House of the Lord.
 - Solomon finished making the vessels for the Temple and also brought in the silver and gold things that David had dedicated for it.

Questions and Observations

1) I seems to me that there is a comparison between what Solomon did for his own house and what he did for God's house.  His house was bigger, more elaborate, had more named rooms, took longer.  He may even have finished it first although you can't be sure of chronology in these writings.

2) Was Hiram the same person as the king of Tyre?

[ttf_drizabone]

1 Kings 8 text

Highlights

 - Solomon brings the ark to the temple.

Summary

 - Solomon gets all the VIP's together and they go and get the ark and bring it to the inner room in the temple, under the cherubs' wings.
 - They used really long poles, to carry the ark.
 - When the priest left the ark in the inner room, the glory of the Lord filled the room like a cloud, so that the priests couldn't stand.
 - Solomon tells everyone that he has built God a really great house, just as God said he could.
 - Solomon tells everyone how good and unique and trustworthy God is, and that heaven can't even contain him, let alone a temple. Solomon asks that God will use this as a base to look after his people from, dispensing justice, showing mercy, and releiving famine and drought, even granting the requests of foreigners, granting victory and forgining sins.
 - Solomon closes by asking God to be with them and asking that he will incline their hearts to him.
 - Then Solomon and Israel made lots of sacrifices to God/


Questions and Observations

1) any questions?

[ttf_drizabone]

1 Kings 9 text

Highlights

 - God renews his promises to David's line and to Israel
 - Solomon was a builder.

Summary

 - After Solomon had finished building the temple Got appears to Solomon and tells him:
   - he has consecrated the house
   - and if Solomon stays faithful to God, God will establish his throne over Israel forever, but if or hsi descendants turn aside then Israel will be exiled from the land and ruined.
 - Solomon gave King Hiram 20 cities in Galilee, but Hiram didn't really like them
 - Solomon used forced labour from the remnants of the Canaanites in his building program.  The Israelites got to be soldiers and officials.
 - Solomon built other cities, a fleet of ships and offered sacrifices 3 times a year to God.

Questions and Observations

1) God is continuing his promise to look after Israel provided that they stay faithful to him
2) I can't see why we are told that Hiram wasn't pleased with the cities that Solomon gave him.  Any ideas?
3) Here's a map of Israel at the time of Solomon's reign  http://www.katapi.org.uk/Maps/EmpireDavidSol.htm
4) It looks like Solomon was a builder and a diplomat rather than a fighter
5) Its mentioned that Pharaoh took Geza from the Canaanites and gave it to Solomon for a dowry.  I think that Geza is the present day Gaza.  I would have thought that the Philistines would have controlled it, so wonder about what's going on there.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 07, 2016, 05:29AM1 Kings 3 text
 - One of the prostitutes said "Fine" the other said "No don't kill him, give him to the other woman"
When I was 10 this seemed reasonable enough logic - or at least reasonable enough logic for something intended to inspire rather than logically convince. Now not so much.

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 07, 2016, 02:25PM1 Kings 4 text

Solomon's daughter was called Basemath, which was intriguingly the same name as two of Esau's disapproved-of wives.

We talked earlier about the surprising archaeological absence of the described enormous, magnificent, and region-spanning works of King David. The same eyebrow-raising problem occurs with Solomon - the deeds of a ruler described as subduing civilisations cannot be found in other records or in archaelogical excavation.

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 08, 2016, 02:43PM1 Kings 5 text
2) Forced labour, building projects ...  sounds a bit like Egypt

Yes, it does, doesn't it? Good point.

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 10, 2016, 03:36PM1 Kings 6 text
 - 480 years after Isreal leave Egypt Solomon starts building a house for the Lord, aka The Temple.

Oo, a date, and one that looks only moderately rounded at that - though mind you, 480 does divide exactly by the standard Biblical unit of longevity, 40 years. Solomon's reign is (as one might expect, given the independent record and archaelogical blackout surrounding it) not confidently dated. The usual estimates put it in the mid 900s BC, which would put the Exodus in the mid 1400s BC. But given that we are dating one thing for which we can find no extrabiblical evidence by another, this is all distinctly chancy.

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 10, 2016, 03:57PM1 Kings 7 text
If we are being truly pernickety in terms of demanding absolute truth from this book, v23 contains something mathematically interesting - one of the earliest known approximations for pi. The bowl is 10 cubits in diameter and 30 in circumference, implying a value for pi of 3, rather than the actual 3.141592... Either it wasn't truly round, or they mismeasured.

But this is rather churlish of me, though neighbouring civilisations were using better approximations earlier even than the apparent events being described, let alone the date of writing down. I just like numbers...

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 12, 2016, 08:36PM1 Kings 8 text
1) any questions?

Not on this one...

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 13, 2016, 03:02PM1 Kings 9 text
 - Solomon gave King Hiram 20 cities in Galilee, but Hiram didn't really like them
Seems pretty fussy... But maybe 5 collections of grubby tents a long way from his base of control in Tyre weren't such an attractive proposition...

[ttf_MoominDave]

1 Kings 10 text

Highlights

 - Solomon the master of quizzery
 - Solomon has massive wealth

Summary

 - The Queen of Sheba arrives in state in order to test Solomon's knowledge
 - She asks him all the hard questions she has, and he answers them all
 - They exchange gifts and compliments, and she returns home
 - Huge amounts of gold came to Solomon, much of it stored in his palace
 - Horses and chariots are exported to the Hittites and Syrians

Questions and Observations

1) It isn't clear where Sheba was. Perhaps Southern Arabia, perhaps Ethiopia, perhaps somewhere else...
2) Was it a good idea to be exporting horses and chariots to competing countries?

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 14, 2016, 08:20AM ...

Questions and Observations

1) It isn't clear where Sheba was. Perhaps Southern Arabia, perhaps Ethiopia, perhaps somewhere else...

How about Abyssinia?

Quote2) Was it a good idea to be exporting horses and chariots to competing countries?

I wouldn't think so.  And do you remember where Deuteronomy 17 (The rules for kings) tells kings not to get lots of horses or go to Egypt to get them.  I didn't either, but it seems that the writer is starting to criticise Solomon.  Deut 17 also proscribes the king from having lots of wives.  I wonder if that is significant.

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 14, 2016, 08:12AM
If we are being truly pernickety in terms of demanding absolute truth from this book, v23 contains something mathematically interesting - one of the earliest known approximations for pi. The bowl is 10 cubits in diameter and 30 in circumference, implying a value for pi of 3, rather than the actual 3.141592... Either it wasn't truly round, or they mismeasured.


I thought this would come up.  There's lots interesting conclusions one could jump to.

If it wasn't truly round, the circumference be larger not smaller.  So maybe they left a bit out.
Or they didn't have fractions of cubits because no-one was prepared to cut their arm in half so measured everything in whole cubits. 
Or it was measured by a builder rather than a mathematicians or nuclear physicist and they only measured to the nearest cubit and then cut enough off to make it fit.

And we've already noted that arithmetical precision wasn't high on the ancient Hebrew list of priorities.

[ttf_drizabone]

1 Kings 11 text

Highlights

 - 1000 Weddings And A Funeral

Summary

 - But despite all that wisdom and all those riches, Solomon drops the ball and breaks God's commandments.
 - God had commanded Solomon not to marry foreign women, because he knew they'd turn him to idolatry. But Solomon can't resist. He just loves those exotic Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians, and Hittites. Solomon accumulates at least 700 princess-wives and 300 concubines.
 - As he gets older, Solomon's wives turn his heart away from God and toward their gods, like Astarte (the goddess of the Sidonians) and Milcom (the abomination of the Ammonites). Solomon builds a temple for Chemosh, a Moabite god, and Molech, an Ammonite god, and for all of the other gods his wives worship.
- God is not impressed. He tells Solomon that he is going to lose his kingdom because of this betrayal. For his father David's sake though, God will wait until Solomon's dead to take the kingdom from him. He'll let his son keep one tribe.
 - The stage needs to be set for the fall of Solomon's government, so God raises up a few enemies.
 - First there's Hadad the Edomite. Years earlier, when Hadad was a young boy, David conquered Edom. Joab, his commander, killed every male. But Hadad escaped with some of his father's servants, and hid out in Egypt. There, the Pharaoh gave him a place to live. These two became such good pals that Pharaoh gave Hadad his sister-in-law as a wife. Hadad lived with Pharaoh until he heard that David and Joab were dead. Pharaoh didn't want him to leave, but Hadad really wanted to go home, so he did and became Solomon's rival.
 - Next God raises up Rezon, a former leader of a band of marauders who became king of Damascus.
 - And then God raises up Solomon's main adversary: Jeroboam. Jeroboam was the son of one of Solomon's servants. A talented and energetic worker, Solomon put Jeroboam in charge of repairing the walls of Jerusalem. One day Jeroboam was outside the walls and wearing some new clothes when he bumped into a prophet named Ahijah out in a field. Ahijah grabbed Jeroboam's garment and ripped it into twelve pieces, saying (more or less): "Take ten pieces to represent the ten tribes that God has promised to take from Solomon, Solomon can have one."
 - Solomon hears about this whole exchange, and he wants to kill Jeroboam, but Jeroboam is smart and has already fled to Egypt, where he remains until Solomon dies.
 - After 40 years of reign, Solomon dies and is buried in the City of David, and his son Rehoboam reigns in his place.

Questions and Observations

1) Why don't we get any "And the wise or good king lived happily every after" stories??
2) Hadad and Solomon are brother in laws.
3) Ahijah rips his coat into 12 pieces.  He gives 10 pieces to Jeroboam and leaving 1 for Solomon.  What happened to the extra piece? ***
4) 40 years again.

*** I've been thinking about this and speculated an answer.
 - I've discounted the idea that the Hebrews were really bad mathematicians, but that's not entirely out of contention.
 - The pieces of cloth represented the 12 tribes that were being distributed. I think its likely that the David and Solomon's tribe (ie Judah) would have been assumed to already belong to Solomon, so they didn't have to be given to him, so weren't counted.  The tribe that was "given" to Solomon would have been Benjamin.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 15, 2016, 02:37PMI thought this would come up.  There's lots interesting conclusions one could jump to.
I don't see it as anything significant, tbh. I just wanted to talk about pi, and couldn't resist poking any overliteralists reading.

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 15, 2016, 02:37PMIf it wasn't truly round, the circumference be larger not smaller.  So maybe they left a bit out.
Or they didn't have fractions of cubits because no-one was prepared to cut their arm in half so measured everything in whole cubits. 
Or it was measured by a builder rather than a mathematicians or nuclear physicist and they only measured to the nearest cubit and then cut enough off to make it fit.

And we've already noted that arithmetical precision wasn't high on the ancient Hebrew list of priorities.

Rounding error is my thought too - if it was 9 2/3 cubits across (say), then it would have been about 30.4 around if perfectly circular, which one might round to 10 and 30.

Btw, deforming the circle doesn't necessarily make your measured circumference larger - it depends where you measure the diameter as to what it does to the ratio. Squash the sides in to make something broadly elliptical while holding the end points constant - circumference is less, but diameter along the major axis is the same. Diameter along any other axis has decreased though.

Whatever the (frankly unimportant) details, it was a big old bowl... 15ish feet across.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 15, 2016, 02:39PM - God had commanded Solomon not to marry foreign women, because he knew they'd turn him to idolatry. But Solomon can't resist. He just loves those exotic Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians, and Hittites. Solomon accumulates at least 700 princess-wives and 300 concubines.
Like father, like son.

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 15, 2016, 02:39PMMilcom
a.k.a. Moloch

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 15, 2016, 02:39PM- God is not impressed. He tells Solomon that he is going to lose his kingdom because of this betrayal. For his father David's sake though, God will wait until Solomon's dead to take the kingdom from him. He'll let his son keep one tribe.
David really has become a saint since death, hasn't he? This is pretty inconsistent with the tales that we were discussing about him only a few chapters ago.

So for the good deeds of a man who seemed to perform just as many bad deeds as Solomon did, Solomon's punishment is deferred and placed onto his (presumably blameless) son. A lack of moral consistency here from God.

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 15, 2016, 02:39PM - The stage needs to be set for the fall of Solomon's government, so God raises up a few enemies.
Some of these are people (e.g. Hadad) whose existing resentments would be expected to grow into rebellious behaviour. Either there's no need for God to 'raise them up' or he's storing up options for himself to use against Solomon - did he know that he'd created Solomon to disobey him? In which case blaming Solomon (let alone Rehoboam) seems rather churlish.

[ttf_MoominDave]

1 Kings 12 text

Highlights

 - The kingdom divided

Summary

 - Rehoboam succeeds Solomon
 - Jeroboam petitions Rehoboam to step away from Solomon's authoritarian ways
 - Rehoboam takes advice, receives mixed answers, and goes with the most hardline response
 - Israel rebels; Rehoboam prepares to fight, but abandons the effort, divinely advised
 - Jeroboam sets up his new capital for Israel at Shechem, in the hill country of Ephraim
 - Wanting to distract the people's religious tendencies from maintaining tribute to Jerusalem, he sets up two golden calf idols, one in Bethel, one in Dan, for them to worship

Questions and Observations

1) The "hill country of Ephraim" again - yes, it is clear that this is a hotbed of troublemaking for Judah of long standing.
2) The golden idols are very similar to Aaron's. Which deity do they represent?
3) Rehoboam was probably wise not to fight this particular war - Israel was larger than Judah.

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 16, 2016, 02:52AMDavid really has become a saint since death, hasn't he? This is pretty inconsistent with the tales that we were discussing about him only a few chapters ago.

I've got two lines of thought going on in my brain:
- On the one hand David was definitely a "sinner" in some pretty bad ways, and that has been whitewashed.  The fact that David is seen as a more ideal than he was is, I think a combination of people not really knowing his story, or "forgetting" the less savory parts because we don't like to think of people who are examples of the "good" as being imperfect like us. 
- David seemed to do ok accepting criticism for his wrongdoing and recognizing when it was true, kicking himself and trying to get back on track. Not always successfully.So I maybe David's appeared better to God than he did to people, at least us reading the stories.

QuoteSo for the good deeds of a man who seemed to perform just as many bad deeds as Solomon did, Solomon's punishment is deferred and placed onto his (presumably blameless) son. A lack of moral consistency here from God.

I can see your point of view.  But also the biblical perspective.

And I'm pretty sure the assumption of innocence won't be vindicated.

QuoteSome of these are people (e.g. Hadad) whose existing resentments would be expected to grow into rebellious behaviour. Either there's no need for God to 'raise them up' or he's storing up options for himself to use against Solomon - did he know that he'd created Solomon to disobey him? In which case blaming Solomon (let alone Rehoboam) seems rather churlish.

One of the difficult areas in christian theology for believers is around how God's sovereignty interacts with our free will.  And that includes things like
- is God sovereign
- do we have free will (which is a question that science is grappling with too)
- is God's sovereignty compatible with our having free will or incompatible

I can provide an answer, but it may be too much of a tangent, and it may not even be right.

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 16, 2016, 03:01AM
2) The golden idols are very similar to Aaron's. Which deity do they represent?

I don't know, but given what happened last time they were mentioned you would think that the Israelites would try something else.

[ttf_drizabone]

1 Kings 13 text

Highlights

 - Jereboam confronted
 - A "man of God" disobeys God

Summary

 - One day Jeroboam is burning incense by his new altar in Bethel. A man of God who has come from Judah walks up and starts talking to the altar.
 - He says, "Hey altar. A kid named Josiah's going to be born into David's house, and he'll sacrifice humans on top of you and burn their bones" (2 Kings 23:16-20).
 - "And," he says, "this altar's going to break, and the ashes will spill out. That's how you'll know I'm for real."
 - Jeroboam gets mad that this guy's prophesying bad stuff about his altar, and he grabs him. But when he touches him, Jeroboam's hand shrivels up.
 - Then the altar breaks and the ashes pour out.
 - Jeroboam's not so high-and-mighty anymore, and he asks the man of God to pray for his hand to be restored. He does, and his hand goes back to normal.
 - Jeroboam invites the man of God to come to his house to freshen up and collect a reward, but he says no way—not even if he offered him half of his kingdom, buster.
 - "The Lord told me not to eat or drink anything around here, and just to go straight home when I was done talking to your altar," he says. And that's what he does.
 - But there is this old prophet living in Bethel, and his sons tell him about what the man of God had said and done. He asks his sons which way the man went, and they tell him.
 - The old prophet climbs on his donkey and rides off toward Judah.
He finds the man of God sitting under an oak tree, and invites him to come eat with him at his home.
 - The man of God's says, "No can do. The Lord said so."
 - "But I'm a prophet," says the prophet. "It's cool." So the man of God goes with him to his house for some food and drink.
 - But while they're eating, the word of God comes to the man of God, who says, "You disobeyed God by coming here, and now you're going to die before you return home."
 - Sure enough, the man of God leaves and gets killed by a lion, who stands guard by his body.
 - The prophet hears about this and goes to collect the body. He buries him in his own grave and mourns over him and the sad prophesy that he uttered to Jeroboam.
 - Despite this little episode, though, Jeroboam still does evil in God's eyes by setting up false priests and worshipping idols.


Questions and Observations

1) You shouldn't believe everything that someone says, even if they say that they're a prophet.
2) God uses imperfect people to speak for him.
3) How are you supposed to tell if what a prophet says is true or not?

[ttf_MoominDave]

It is generally thought likely that these 'Deuteronomistic' books had important parts of their composition at the court of King Josiah, who we haven't met yet, but will pop up in another 300 years or so, in a number of chapters' time. Not much of a stretch to imagine the authors working for Josiah inserting this flattering prophecy about him.

[ttf_MoominDave]

1 Kings 14 text

Highlights

 - Jeroboam and Rehoboam both complete their reigns, succeeded respectively by sons Nadab and Abijam.

Summary

 - Jeroboam's son Abijah falls sick. He dispatches his wife to the prophet Ahijah for advice, in disguise.
 - Ahijah is primed by Yahweh and responds that he knows who she is, that the child will die as she returns, and that Jeroboam's house will fall due to his observance of non-Yahweh gods.
 - Abijah dies as she returns.
 - Jeroboam reigns 22 years in Israel then dies. We are referred to the Book of Chronicles for supplementary details for the interested reader.
 - Rehoboam reigns 17 years in Judah then dies. We are referred similarly to Chronicles.
 - He lets non-Yahweh worship take place in widespread fashion.
 - Shishak, king of Egypt, raids Jerusalem, taking Solomon's treasures.

Questions and Observations

1) I thought from Ahijah's assumed hostility and the disguise that Shiloh might have been foreign territory - but it wasn't; it was in Israel.
2) It occurs to me that we haven't heard much about the Ark of the Covenant recently. Shishak took away all Solomon's treasures. Would he have left it? Perhaps, if he didn't look inside... I read that it doesn't get referenced again as an existing object, which makes me think 'mythological'.
3) For me the most exciting thing about this chapter is the first Biblical character mention that seems to relate to a person whose existence can be independently verified - the pharoah Shishak, conventionally identified with Shoshenq I, who reigned in Egypt ~943-922 BC, and who is documented as campaigning in Canaan at a date usually held to be 925 BC, which would place Rehoboam's reign ~930-913 BC by the chronology given in this chapter. This is an appealing identification - the names are obviously similar, and the campaign in Canaan gels with a sacking of Jerusalem. However, Shoshenq's victories are recorded on a stela at Megiddo, and Jerusalem, supposedly the most mighty prize, is not mentioned. What to make of this? My immediate thought is that, as we are reading the history of the Jewish tribes, they have substantially inflated the magnitude of the deeds of their ancestors in parochial pride. This is a line I've been dabbling with all through, but here it seems the only sensible way to reconcile independent documentation with the text. I wonder whether there was a united kingdom at all prior to Jeroboam, given the prominent absence of material supporting a strong era at this time - it wouldn't seem too jarring to me to think of Saul, David, and Solomon more as Judge-type characters - their exploits were hardly the deeds of people ruling over an area entirely of one political mind.

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 21, 2016, 04:03AM2) It occurs to me that we haven't heard much about the Ark of the Covenant recently. Shishak took away all Solomon's treasures. Would he have left it? Perhaps, if he didn't look inside... I read that it doesn't get referenced again as an existing object, which makes me think 'mythological'.

The famous King Josiah returned it to the temple in his reign.  But what happened to it after that is a matter of speculation. 

[ttf_MoominDave]

1 Kings 15 text

Highlights

 - Abijam and Asa kings of Judah
 - Nadab and Baasha kings of Israel

Summary

Judah
 - Rehoboam succeeded by his son Abijam, who reigned for only three years, and is condemned for being like his father
 - Abijam succeeded by his son Asa, who the text approves of for his Yahweh-focussed piety, and had a long reign of 41 years.
 - Asa represses worship of other gods, and turns against his mother for this.
 - Asa of Judah and Baasha of Israel fight repeatedly.
 - Baasha besieges Asa. Asa sends a gift to the king of Syria, who is allied with Israel to persuade him to withdraw his support from Israel. Syria seizes Israelite cities, and Baasha raises the siege in order to solve that domestic problem.
 - We are directed to Chronicles for further details of Asa's reign.
 - Asa's feet were ill in his old age, and he was succeeded by his son Jehoshaphat.
Israel
 - Jeroboam succeeded by his son Nadab, who reigned for only two years, and is condemned for being like his father.
 - While campaigning against the Philistines, Nadab is assassinated by Baasha, an Issacharite, who usurps the kingship. We are directed to Chronicles for more details of his reign.
 - Baasha reigned 24 years, is condemned by the text for the same religious errors as Jeroboam, and was continually at war with Asa of Judah.

Questions and Observations

1) Chronology (based on Shoshenq's Canaan campaign being in 925 BC and that being the 5th year of Rehoboam's reign):

[ttf_MoominDave]

1 Kings 16 text

Highlights

 - Kings of Israel during the reign of Asa king of Judah: Baasha, Elah, Zimri, Omri, Ahab

Summary

 - Conclusion of Baasha's reign - Jehu prophesies against him and his house.
 - Succeeded by son Elah, who reigned only two years.
 - Zimri, Elah's chariot commander, murders him and all his family, taking the throne for himself.
 - Zimri faced immediate rebellion from Omri, the head of the army, reigning on only a week.
 - Omri takes the throne, but must put a rebellion from Timni. That done, he reigns 12 years.
 - Omri is condemned by the text in the same way as all the other Kings of Israel - of different religion. We are directed several times more to Chronicles for supplementary details in all of this.
 - Omri's son Ahab succeeds him, reigning 22 years, and he and his wife Jezebel are condemned as the worst of a bad lot by the text. Ahab encourages Baal-worship and refounds Jericho.

Questions and Observations

1) Chronology (based on Shoshenq's Canaan campaign being in 925 BC and that being the 5th year of Rehoboam's reign):

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 22, 2016, 03:03AM1 Kings 16 text


1) Chronology (based on Shoshenq's Canaan campaign being in 925 BC and that being the 5th year of Rehoboam's reign):

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 22, 2016, 02:44PMI like your table. Its helpful.  Do you think it would be useful to add in a column for where the kings are referenced? We'll be looking their reigns by a few authors.  As we've noted Chronicles covers their reigns too, and the prophets do to.
Potentially. But in fact plenty of people online have done this job already, more completely than we can really hope to, and it would rather distort the table. Usually loading up a Bible character's Wikipedia page will supply you in the text with all the chapter and verse references, e.g. for King Ahab of Israel; and there are various other sites set up for study of the Bible that have made the same lists.

Anyhow, I don't think it'll need updating for a number more chapters now - Ahab will keep us busy for a little while.

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 22, 2016, 02:44PMRe the lengths of the reigns, I've read that :
 - even though they started and finished reigning during a year, they counted them as full years, so a reign starting in June and ending in June, 2 years later would count as 3 years.
This seems very possible to me, and consistent with the numbers quoted already - e.g. Nadab reigned for two years, but succeeded in the second year of Asa of Judah and was succeeded in the third year of Asa of Judah. I think this implies that a little further jiggling may be necessary to what's already there, but maybe not.

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 22, 2016, 02:44PM - we've seen that Solomon started reigning before David died, so their reigns were concurrent.  So if this happened again it would throw the chronology out too.
For me, the idea of applying dates to these things only starts to seem to make possible sense post-Solomon. Fair enough?

[ttf_drizabone]

The pre-Solomon dates seem very symbolic and/rounded.  40 years crops up a lot.  The Jews had special meaning for numbers so the numbers especially for years were probably used for their meaning.  That's not to say that they weren't historically accurate too.

[ttf_drizabone]

1 Kings 17 text

Highlights

 - A drought, a prophet and a widow

Summary

 - Elijah the Tishbite says to Ahab, "In the name of God, it's not going to rain until I tell it to."
 - The Lord tells Elijah to go hide by a stream, and ravens will feed him.
He does, and they do. He gets bread and meat morning and evening from the ravens, and drinks water from the stream.
 - But then it dries up (because it's not raining anymore), so the Lord tells him to go live in Zarephath. A widow there will take care of him.
 - Elijah goes, and sure enough when he gets there there's a widow gathering sticks for a fire. He asks her to get him a drink of water and some bread, but she tells him that she's about to use the last of her meal and oil to make one final meal for her and her son before they starve to death.
 - But Elijah tells her, "Don't worry. Feed me first, and God won't let your food run out until the rains come again."
 - She believes Elijah, feeds him first, and—as promised—their food doesn't run out.
 - Despite this, though, the widow's son gets really sick and dies.
 = The woman wonders if God sent Elijah to kill her son as punishment for some sin she's committed.  But Elijah takes the son and carries him upstairs, and prays for God to restore the boy's soul to him.
 - And God does, and now the woman knows that Elijah is a man of God who speaks the truth.


Questions and Observations

1) The women wasn't sure that Elijah was a man of God until he proved it by raising her son from the dead, even though the oil and flour never ran out.  She must be a sceptic.

[ttf_drizabone]

Here's a table that gives an overview of the kings/governors with the prophets that operated during their reign.

Unfortunately the text entry screen and view screen aren't the same so the text doesn't line up.

Divided Kingdom
Northern Kings             Northern     Southern Kings               Southern
                           Prophets                                  Prophets
Jeroboam (931-910)                      Rehoboam (931-913)      
Nadab (910-909)                         Abijah (913)      
Baasha (909-886)                        Asa (911-870)      
Elah (886)               
Zimri (885)               
Omri (885-874)               
Ahab (874-853)               Elijah      Jehoshaphat (873-848)      
Jehoram (852-841)                       Jehoram (853-841)      
Jehu (841-814)               Elisha      Queen Athaliah (841-835)      Obadiah   
Jehoahaz (814-798)                      Joash (835-796)               Joel   
Jehoash (798-782)                       Amaziah (796-767)      
Jeroboam II (793-753)       Amos        Uzziah (790-740)              Isaiah   
Zechariah (753-752)         Jonah       Jotham (750-731)      
Shallum (752)               
Menahem 752-742)               
Pekahiah (742-740)               
Pekah (752-732)                                                       Micah   
Hoshea (732-722)            Hosea       Ahaz (735-715)      
                                        Hezekiah (715-686)      
                                        Manasseh (695-642)      
                                        Amon (642-640)                 Jeremiah   
                                        Josiah (640-609)         Zephaniah   
                                        Jehoahaz (609)                 Huldah   
                                        Jehoiakim (609-597)           Nahum   
                                        Jehoiachin (597)              Habakkuk   
                                        Zedekiah (597-586)      

Babylonian Exile
                                                                      Ezekiel   
                                                                      Daniel   

Post Babylon Exile
                                        Zerubbabel, governor         Haggai
                                                                      Zechariah
                                        Nehemiah, governor            Malachi

It gives a good overview of the interaction of the major players over the period.

And I never knew that there was a Queen Athaliah.

[ttf_drizabone]

1 Kings 18 text

Highlights

 - Elijah sets up a showdown between Go and Baal
 - God pwns Baal.

Summary

 - after 3 years of drought God tells Elijah to confront Ahab
 - meanwhile Ahab has told Obadiah (a good guy) to look for green grass
 - Obadiah meets Elijah who tells Obadiah to tell Ahab where he is
 - Ahab goes to meet Elijah who tells him to gather all the people and the 450 prophets of Ball and the 400 prophets of Asherah and to meet him on Mount Carmel.
 - So they meet. Elijah tells them to make up their mind and decide whther to going to follow The Lord of Baal.  They don't answer.
 - Elijah sets up a showdown. 2 bulls, prepared for sacrifice.  Whichever god accepts the sacrifice by burning it up by fire, is the Real God.
 - The prophets of Baal go first, but their god doesn't answer them.  Elijah taunts them.
 - Elijah prepares his sacrifice and drenches it with water.  He prays to God, who sends  down fire that consumes all the offering, the wood and the water.
 - The people fall down and worship God.
 - Elijah tells the people to seize the false prophets and slaughter them
 - Elijah tells Ahab that he can eat now, because the rain is coming.
 - Ahab goes to Jezreel in his chariot.  Elijah runs and gets there ahead of him.


Questions and Observations

1) This was another story I remembered enjoying in Sunday school.
2) I wonder what happened to the prophets of Asherah.  They seemed to miss all the fun.

[ttf_drizabone]

1 Kings 19 text


Highlights -

 - Elijah goes to visit the Lord and gets instructions

Summary

 - Ahab tells Jezebel about Elijah killing all of her prophets, she's not happy and vows that her gods should kill her if she doesn't kill Elijah by the next day.
 - Elijah is afraid so he runs to Beersheeba in Judah and left his servant there.  (that's the length of Israel) He continues into the wilderness where he sits down and asks the Lord if he can die now.
 - He lies down to sleep. An angel wakes him 3 times to feed him because he has to get his strength to walk to Horeb.
 -  When he gets there he has to explain to God why he is there. He says that he has been jealous for the Lord but the people have forsaken him (the Lord) and now he is the only one left faithful.
 - God tells Elijah to go and stand on the mountain, where he appears as a strong wind, an earthquake, fire and then finally a low whisper.
 - Elijah has to again explain why he is there. He says, "I've been jealous for you, the people have forsaken you, I'm the only one left and they want to kill me"
 - the Lord tells him to go back :
    - and to annoint Hazael to be king over syria
    - and Jehu the king over Israel
    - and Elisha to be prophet in his place
   - and that Hazael, Jehu and Elisha will kill all the unfaithful in Israel, leaving 7000 faithful.
 - So he departed and found Elisha. He put his cloak on him. Elisha farewelled his parents (and others) and followed Elijah.

Questions and Observations

1) Jezebel didn't kill Elijah, and her gods didn't kill her.
2) Horeb is probably where Sinai is, where God appeared to Moses in the burning bush and later gave him the Law.
3) what is the significance of God showing off to Elijah: the wind, the earthquake, the fire, but then not speaking until after the low whisper, aka sheer silence in other translations?
4) Did you notice the similarities between Elijah and Moses
  - 40 years and 40 days
  - both travelled to Horeb
  - Both complained to God about Israels unfaithfulness
  - both were put in a cave to prepare them for an appearance of God
  - God passed by both
  - both were given directions for the future
5) But there's a difference.  For Moses, God offered Israel a new start with a new covenant.  For Elijah there was not going to be another chance for Israel, just judgement for the majority and the promise that there was a faithful remnant.  So he was told to do some things.
 (I think that there's a good chance that Elijah was hoping to get another chance for Israel)
6) Up till now it has been Israelites that have been annointed ("messiah"ed) to lead the people.  Now, for the first time we have a foreign king annointed to come against Israel. (anoint is the English word for the Hebrew word messiah)
6) another first is the mention of a small group of Israel that have been faithful while the majority are unfaithful.  This theme is repeated many times. The small group is generally called a remnant.
7) this is probably not a coincidence.

[ttf_drizabone]

1 Kings 20 text


Highlights -

 - Ben-hadad invades Israel and is repulsed as promised by the Lord.
 - Ahab is condemned for releasing him.

Summary

 - Ben-hadad the King of Syria creates a huge alliance and leads their combined army agains Samaria
 - He sends a message to Ahab demanding his gold and best wives and children. Ahab agrees.
 - But when Ahab finds out that he really has to hand over the booty, he asks his advisers what to do.  They advise him to say that the treasure and wives can be Ben-hadad's but he will not hand them over.
 - Ben-hadad vows to turn Samaria to dust.
 - A prophet tells Ahab that the Lord has given the enemy into Ahab's hand so that he will know that "I am the Lord" and that the nobles son's will lead the Israelites to victory.
 - this happens.  Israel attacks when the chiefs are drinking in their tents and defeats them.
 - the prophet tells Ahab to prepare because Ben-hadad will return in the next Spring.
 - Ben-hadads advisers tell him to attack Israel on the plains next year because their god is a hill-god.
 - The Lord wasn't impressed to be called just a "hill-god" so he told Ahab that he would defeat the Syrians again.
 - the Syrians attacked with an army much bigger than the Israelite army, but the Israelites killed 100,000 Syrians.  The remaining 27,000 fled to the sity of Aphek, but the wall fell on them and killed them all.
 - Ben-hadad fled and then sought a truce with Ahab.  Ahabn agreed.
 - A prophet tells Ahab that because he let Ben-hadad live, he shall die
 - Ahab went away and sulked.


Questions and Observations

1) I guess Ahab thought that Ben-hadad was only making a symbolic demand for his gold and wives, which would have indicated that Ahab was subject to Ben-hadad.  But when Ahab realised
2) The wall that fell over and killed 7000 soldiers must have been pretty big.

[ttf_drizabone]

1 Kings 21 text


Highlights -

 - Ahab steals Naboth's vineyard
 - Ahab is condemned

Summary

 - Naboth had a nice vineyard next to Ahab's palace.  Ahab wanted it but Naboth said, "No!"
 - Ahab sulked. Jezebel said "What's wrong, dear?"  Ahab told her.  She said ""Don't you worry about that, I'll fix it"
 - Jezebel got two worthless men to testify that Naboth had cursed God and the King so they stoned him.
 - Ahab took possession of the vineyard.
 - The Lord told Elijah to condemn Ahab for what he had done and that Jezebel and his descendants would die and that dogs and birds would eat their remains.
 - Ahab was the worst, going after idols and generally acting abominably.  Jezebel had incited him.
 - But when Ahab realised the error of his ways and repented God delayed the punishment until after he had died.

Questions and Observations

1) It looks like Ahab is being held responsible for Jezebel's actions in inciting the killing of Naboth.  This seems fair enough to me as he knew that she was going to "fix" it and he acquiesced.
2) It looks like their justice system involved family respnsibility where it seemed just that the descendants of a perpetrator would be punished for the perpetrators crime.  I know this is reported as God's sentence.  I'm assuming that it is also ok in their culture because its reported as business as usual.  Do you agree?

[ttf_drizabone]

1 Kings 22 text
 
Highlights -
 
- Ahab dies.
- Summary of Jehoshaphat and Ahaziah's rules
 
Summary
 
- Israel enjoys three years of peace before Jehosaphat, king of Judah, comes to visit Ahab.
- While he's there, Ahab tells him that Syria has conquered a city called Ramoth-gilead, will you help us take it back?"
- Jehoshaphat says he is with him all the way. But first check out what The Lord says.
- Ahab gathers 400 yes-men (I mean prophets) and asks them.  They all say that the Lord will give him victory.
- Jehoshaphat asks if there are any more prophets.  Ahab says there is one more, Micaiah, but he hates him because he always prophesies evil about him.
- Ahab asks Micaiah if Israel should go to battle.  Micaiah says "Sure".  Ahab says "Be serious".  Micaiah says that actuallly, Israel has no shepherd to lead them, so they should all go home and that God wanted to entice Ahab to go into a losing battle, which is why all the prophets are saying that he would win.
 - Ahab puts Micaiah into prison until he retirns in peace.
 - Micaiah says if that happens God hasn't spoken through him.
 - Ahab and Jehoshaphat go into battle.  Ahab is disguised but is killed by an archer shooting at random.
 - The dogs licked the blood off his chariot as was prophesied.

 - Jehoshaphat's reign is described in the book of Chronicles of the Kings of Israel. He followed the Lord but didn't take away the altars to foreign gods and the people still worshipped them.  He got rid of the remaining male cultic prostitutes.

 - Ahaziah reigned over Israel (ie not Judah) after Ahab died.  He didn't follow God, but served and worshipped Baal, and provoked the Lord like his father did.
 
Questions and Observations
 
1) Jehoshaphat isn't convinced by 400 prophets?  I guess he thought something was up.
2) Micaiah always prophesied evil agains Ahab. I wonder why?

[ttf_drizabone]

2 Kings 1 text


Highlights -

 - the fall of Ahaziah

Summary

 - With Ahab dead, his son Ahaziah starts to reign. However, he falls through the lattice in one of the upper rooms of his palace and gets seriously injured.
 - He sends messengers to ask the god Baal-zebub if he's going to live.  But the messengers run into Elijah, who tells them there's no point in asking Baal-zebub when God has already proclaimed that Ahaziah will die.
 - Based on the messengers' description, the king knows it was Elijah who told them this. He sends fifty soldiers to apprehend or kill him. However, God kills all of them with a blast of fire from heaven.
 - Ahaziah sends another group of fifty soldiers, but the same thing happens, with Elijah calling down fire from heaven.
 - Ahaziah sends another fifty soldiers, but when their captain begs to spare their lives this time, God tells Elijah to go along, promising to protect him.
 - Elijah goes with the soldiers to Ahaziah and repeats his prediction of imminent death, chiding him for consulting Baal-zebub instead of God.
 - Ahaziah dies and his son, Jehoram takes the throne.

Questions and Observations

1) I think that Baal-zebub is also known as Beelzebub, the "Lord of the Flies"
2) There doesn't seem any literary reason to break 1 and 2 Kings.  Maybe they just ran out of scroll and had to start a new one.

[ttf_drizabone]

2 Kings 2 text


Highlights -

 - Elisha takes Elijah's mantle
 - Elisha show's he is Elijah's successor by performing a blessing and a cursing.

Summary

 - God has decided to bring Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind. He tells his future successor and disciple, Elisha, that God is sending him to Bethel, and Elisha insists on coming along.
 - They meet a company of prophets in Bethel, who know that Elijah is going to be taken by God. After Elisha insists on going further, they meet a company of prophets in Jericho who predict the same thing. Finally, they come to the Jordan with fifty men from the company of prophets. Elijah, like Moses, parts the river with his staff and passes over to the other side with Elisha.
 - Elisha asks Elijah for a double-share of his spirit. Elijah says this is tough, but if Elisha can see him going up to heaven, he'll receive the double-share. The whirlwind comes down and a chariot of fire with horses of fire appears. Elisha sees him ascend and then takes off his own clothes, tearing them in two. He puts on Elijah's cloak, which had fallen off (indicating he's the successor).
 - He takes his staff and parts the Jordan, demonstrating he's received his double-share of Elijah's spirit. Then he crosses back.
 - The prophets at Jericho see that Elijah's spirit is now in Elisha. They want to know if they can look for Elijah, thinking the whirlwind set him down elsewhere. Elisha says it's pointless, but they insist. So he says go ahead. Later they return empty-handed and Elisha says "I told you so"
 - the people say the water is bad and impure. Elisha pours some salt in the town spring, saying God has healed it. From that day on, it's the water is pure and healthy.
 - In a less benevolent miracle, Elisha encounters a crowd of boys who tell him "Get out of here, Baldy!". He calls down a curse from God, and two she-bears come and maul forty-two of the boys.
 - Elisha continues on to Samaria by way of Mount Carmel.

Questions and Observations

1) Is this chapter controversial?  Yep. But its not just God dishing out violence.  There's a context.
2) My understanding of the chapter is that:
  - the phrase "small boys" is likely equivalent to what we would call "youths", ie teenagers/young adults ie a gang.
  - Elisha was probably in his early 20's so actualy baldness was unlikely. The gang were making up insults and telling him to go away, implicitly rejecting God.
  - Elisha curses the youths, and God punishes them
  - so in the chapter we've got a lesson which plays out the alternatives given to Israel in Deuteronomy by Moses: if you accept the covenant you will be blessed, if you reject it you will be cursed.
    1. Elisha is appointed prophet
    2. a town that accepts Elisha's role and is blessed and
    3. a gang of at least 50 youths who rejected Elisha and are punished.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 23, 2016, 02:57PM1 Kings 17 text

 - Despite this, though, the widow's son gets really sick and dies.
 = The woman wonders if God sent Elijah to kill her son as punishment for some sin she's committed.  But Elijah takes the son and carries him upstairs, and prays for God to restore the boy's soul to him.
 - And God does, and now the woman knows that Elijah is a man of God who speaks the truth.
It's been a while in the text since we had these kinds of miracles described - been more of a book of tales / history book of late. I wonder why, and I wonder why the change back in style?

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 23, 2016, 02:57PM1) The women wasn't sure that Elijah was a man of God until he proved it by raising her son from the dead, even though the oil and flour never ran out.  She must be a sceptic.

He might have been working the powers of Ba'al... Or Moloch... Or Asherah, etc etc etc

Or maybe he was a time traveller with access to penicillin! 

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 26, 2016, 04:45AM1 Kings 18 text

2) I wonder what happened to the prophets of Asherah.  They seemed to miss all the fun.

As noted earlier, it seems that at an earlier period, Asherah may have appeared as Yahweh's consort, inherited from the Canaanite god El, whose aspects the religion of Yahweh usurped. I'd suspect that followers of Asherah gradually went with the political flow, becoming Yahwists in time.

Another question occurs to me, possibly one we've talked about before (I forget...). The Bible is very clear that Yahweh is not the only god, though equally clear that he is not open to sharing his followers with the other gods.
Q1) Does modern Christianity hold that these other gods existed?
Q2) Does it hold that they still exist?

Also - is the Obadiah mentioned here the same Obadiah as has a book named after him later?

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 27, 2016, 09:07PM1 Kings 19 text

3) what is the significance of God showing off to Elijah: the wind, the earthquake, the fire, but then not speaking until after the low whisper, aka sheer silence in other translations?
Not sure... What do you think?

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 27, 2016, 09:07PM4) Did you notice the similarities between Elijah and Moses
Yes, it's quite striking. One wonders whether some portions of one story found their way into the other.

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 27, 2016, 09:07PM(anoint is the English word for the Hebrew word messiah)
Now this I did not know. Interesting.

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 29, 2016, 08:49PM1 Kings 21 text

 - Ahab steals Naboth's vineyard
 
1) It looks like Ahab is being held responsible for Jezebel's actions in inciting the killing of Naboth.  This seems fair enough to me as he knew that she was going to "fix" it and he acquiesced.

He seems to get away with it pretty easily. He's complicit in murder and banditry, but because he's sorry he's let off - and the punishment is to be given to his son instead, who has at no point been mentioned in relation to this episode. Once more Yahweh's 'justice' appears to run squint.

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 01, 2016, 03:15PM1 Kings 22 text
 
1) Jehoshaphat isn't convinced by 400 prophets?  I guess he thought something was up.
2) Micaiah always prophesied evil agains Ahab. I wonder why?

Must have been difficult to tell 'true' and 'false' prophets apart.

Prostitutes washed themselves in Ahab's blood? What an odd, gross, and insanitary idea. Why would they do that? Surely the laws about cleanliness forbid this?

Chronology (based on Shoshenq's Canaan campaign being in 925 BC and that being the 5th year of Rehoboam's reign):

[ttf_MoominDave]

In preface, recap of the story so far:
Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 04, 2016, 05:23AMQuote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:58PMGenesis

• [li]Big picture stuff
  • [li]Creation; Adam & Eve[/li][li]Humans, take 1; Cain & Abel, Noah[/li][li]The Flood; Wash everything away, start again[/li][li]Humans, take 2[/li]
  [/li][li]Abraham; extensive travels, original covenant, Lot, not sacrificing Isaac[/li][li]Jacob; conflict with twin Esau, banishment, wives, 12 sons[/li][li]Joseph; betrayal to Egypt, rise, saving of family, supposed origins of 12 tribes[/li]

Exodus

• [li]New scene, three generations on - Israelites now of low status in Egypt[/li][li]Moses grows up, fights battle of wills with Pharoah over plagues, leads Israelites to depart[/li][li]Wandering, take 1; through the desert to Mt. Sinai, where they make a long camp and...[/li]

Leviticus

• [li]...many laws are given[/li]

Numbers

• [li]Wandering, take 2; they reach their destination, but are too weak to attempt the task, and so...[/li][li]Wandering, take 3; more pootling around, building up military prowess over the years in the preparation for invasion; new leaders emerge, and they finish on the brink of their destination again[/li]

Deuteronomy

• [li]Moses orates; recap of terms and conditions, forward planning[/li][li]Moses dies[/li]

Joshua

• [li]Conquest
  • [li]Joshua appointed leader, to cross Jordan, conquer Canaan[/li][li]Spies report back that the time is ripe[/li][li]Jericho is the first city to fall. Then Ai, at the second attempt.[/li][li]The Gibeonites talk them into an alliance.[/li][li]Southern Canaan all conquered (sudden shift of narrative gear)[/li][li]Ditto the North[/li]
  [/li][li]Division of conquered land between the tribes
  • [li]The East bank land that Moses took[/li][li]West bank land[/li][li]Remaining land[/li][li]Cities of refuge and Levite cities nominated[/li]
  [/li][li]Joshua dies[/li]

Judges

• [li]Prologue: Messy details of attempted not-always-successful conquest[/li][li]An intermittent sequence of Judges leads:
  • [li]Othniel - defeated Mesopotamia[/li][li]Ehud - kills Eglon[/li][li]Shamgar - killed 600 Philistines with an ox-goad[/li][li]Deborah - defeated Jabin of Hazor[/li][li]Gideon - defeated Midian[/li][li]Tola, then Jair[/li][li]Jephthah - defeated the Ammonites[/li][li]Ibzan, then Elon, then Abdon[/li][li]Samson - killed Philistines, made trouble[/li]
  [/li][li]The Dan tribe take territory in the North[/li][li]The Benjamin tribe are defeated by the other tribes[/li]

Ruth

• [li]Intermezzo: Heartwarming tale of a family coming through hard times[/li]

1 Samuel

• [li]Samuel born and given to the church, in the care of the Judge Eli[/li][li]Philistines defeat Israel, taking the Ark of the Covenant, but they are divinely afflicted with tumours and give it back[/li][li]Israelites defeat Philistines, and Samuel becomes the leader[/li][li]Samuel ages, and his sons prove unworthy. Saul is appointed to the new role of king.[/li][li]Saul defeats the Ammonites[/li][li]Saul and Jonathan defeat the Philistines, but Saul usurps Samuel's function[/li][li]Saul defeats the Amalekites at Samuel's command, but does not obey the divine command to kill all; he is marked for failure from this point[/li][li]Samuel anoints David as a replacement king, but doesn't tell Saul[/li][li]David becomes an Israelite military hero, particularly beloved to Saul's son Jonathan, and Saul becomes jealous of him[/li][li]Saul resolves to kill David, and with Jonathan's assistance, he flees[/li][li]Saul pursues and they play a game of cat and mouse in which David finds Saul in his hands and spares him twice[/li][li]Samuel dies[/li][li]David seeks refuge with the Philistines[/li][li]Philistines and Israelites fight once again; Saul and all his sons die and the Philistines are victorious; David is sent home from the Philistine side before the battle.[/li]

2 Samuel

• [li]News of Saul's death arrives; Ish-bosheth crowned in the North, David in the South: civil war[/li][li]David wins, aided by high profile defection, and also defeats the Philistines[/li][li]David retrieves the Ark of the Covenant, receives his own covenant, and defeats all and sundry militarily, building his territory[/li][li]Ammonites rebel unsuccessfully[/li][li]David's domestic doings: takes in Mephibosheth, takes Bathsheba immorally. Incest (Amnon on Tamar) and murder (Absalom on Amnon) amongst his children[/li][li]Absalom returns, forgiven, but plots against his father, leading a rebellion, which is defeated, with Absalom dying[/li][li]Sheba rebels unsuccessfully[/li]

1 Kings

• [li]David dies, succeeded by Solomon, who consolidates his power base brutally[/li][li]Solomon gains great wealth and a reputation for great wisdom[/li][li]He builds the "first temple", and a palace, but over his long reign takes too many wives for Yahweh's taste and permits non-Yahweh worship[/li][li]After he dies, the kingdom is split into Israel (larger Northern portion) and Judah (smaller Southern portion), and the continual inference is that Judah is the legitimate one of the two[/li][li]Rehoboam, Solomon's son, becomes king in Judah, with Jeroboam seizing control in Israel[/li][li]Sons of the above succeed, but while Asa, Rehoboam's grandson, provides Judah with long and stable leadership, Israel passes through succession crises, reaching some stability under Ahab. Conflict between the two nations is regular.[/li][li]Elijah gains prominence as a prophet, foretelling doom for Ahab, who is eventually killed in battle by Asa's son Jehoshaphat[/li]

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 03, 2016, 09:32PM2 Kings 1 text

 - Ahaziah dies and his son, Jehoram takes the throne.
This is confusing. Apparently the two kings of Israel and Judah both had the same name at the same time.

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 03, 2016, 09:32PM1) I think that Baal-zebub is also known as Beelzebub, the "Lord of the Flies"
Yes, I would say that this seems clear linguistically.

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 03, 2016, 09:32PM2) There doesn't seem any literary reason to break 1 and 2 Kings.  Maybe they just ran out of scroll and had to start a new one.

Yes, they were originally a single book.

Chronology (based on Shoshenq's Canaan campaign being in 925 BC and that being the 5th year of Rehoboam's reign):

[ttf_MoominDave]

2 Kings 3 text

Highlights

 - Moab rebels against Israel

Summary

 - Jehoram succeeds to the throne of Israel while Jehoshaphat is king of Judah. The writer is still not keen on him, but emphasises that he discouraged Baal-worship.
 - Moab seems to be vassal of Israel, paying them livestock. When Ahab died, Moab rebelled against Israel.
 - Jehoram of Israel and Jehoshaphat form an alliance to defeat Moab, collecting the king of Edom en route.
 - They run out of supplies, but Elisha produces them divinely.
 - Moab attacks Israel, but does badly.
 - The Moabite king sacrifices his eldest son by burning, and the battle turns, with Israel departing.

Questions and Observations

1) Apparently the Moabite king's human sacrifice (to Moloch, presumably?) worked a miracle of its own in their favour. So the Bible declares that other gods can have power against Yahweh, interestingly.
2) Chronology (based on Shoshenq's Canaan campaign being in 925 BC and that being the 5th year of Rehoboam's reign):

[ttf_drizabone]

Welcome back Dave.  Glad that you have recovered enough to participate again.

Quote from: MoominDave on Jul 04, 2016, 09:21AMIt's been a while in the text since we had these kinds of miracles described - been more of a book of tales / history book of late. I wonder why, and I wonder why the change back in style?

I would say its a change of content rather than style, but still the same style.

QuoteAnother question occurs to me, possibly one we've talked about before (I forget...). The Bible is very clear that Yahweh is not the only god, though equally clear that he is not open to sharing his followers with the other gods.
Q1) Does modern Christianity hold that these other gods existed?
Q2) Does it hold that they still exist?

There are a lot of opinions that claim to be part of modern christianity so sometimes its not accurate to treat it as having an unvariegated belief. 

But I think in this case the bible is clear enough that there is only one true God that we're pretty consistent on this.  The other gods are false: just pretend and not real.  Just like you would consider God.

QuoteAlso - is the Obadiah mentioned here the same Obadiah as has a book named after him later?

I think so.  The book is only 1 page.  It deals with Edom and Philistine, issues that are contemporaneous to what we've been reading.

QuoteYes, it's quite striking. One wonders whether some portions of one story found their way into the other.

Or that Elijah was consciously imitating Moses.

QuoteMust have been difficult to tell 'true' and 'false' prophets apart.

Yep, which makes it tempting to pretend to be one, but if they are found out they were supposed to be killed.

QuoteProstitutes washed themselves in Ahab's blood? What an odd, gross, and insanitary idea. Why would they do that? Surely the laws about cleanliness forbid this?

I doubt that they were too fussed about following the law.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 04, 2016, 02:49PMWelcome back Dave.  Glad that you have recovered enough to participate again.
Sorry to disappear a bit, and thanks for the welcome back. All this Brexit nonsense has been rather taking over my head of late. The sensation that enough people in one's country to form a bloc large enough to marginally take a referendum (the outcome of which is likely to screw up things badly) can be persuaded to vote for profoundly inward-looking and mistrustful-of-the-other positions has come as a painful shock. It doesn't seem that I'm at all alone in being taken aback and disheartened by it to an extraordinary degree - the whole thing feels like an ambush, with inappropriately high stakes.

Hateful stuff. And stuff I'm keen not to discuss in this thread. But I thought it best to mention why I've been a bit quiet.

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 04, 2016, 02:49PMI would say its a change of content rather than style, but still the same style.
Okay, fair enough. I wonder why the switch in content?

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 04, 2016, 02:49PMThere are a lot of opinions that claim to be part of modern christianity so sometimes its not accurate to treat it as having an unvariegated belief.
Good point, yes - Christianity is a literal broad church at this point in time.

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 04, 2016, 02:49PMBut I think in this case the bible is clear enough that there is only one true God that we're pretty consistent on this.  The other gods are false: just pretend and not real.  Just like you would consider God.
Is this what it says though? In the last chapter, the shift in the battle in the favour of the Moabites seems to be ascribed to the Moabite king's sacrifice to another god. And there are many other places in the Bible, some of which we've already noted, in which multiple gods are talked about as if they were real.

It seems clear to me that the people that wrote this stuff down were not confused on the subject - they believed that there were multiple competing gods. But the idea never gets raised in modern Christianity, so far as I've seen. Is there some theological reason for considering that these other gods no longer exist? Or is it just that the idea sits badly enough with the modern version of the religion that people just don't like to think about it?

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 04, 2016, 02:49PMI doubt that they were too fussed about following the law.

But I suspect they won't have much liked the mankiness of it...

[ttf_MoominDave]

2 Kings 4 text
2 Kings 5 text

Highlights

 - Elisha performs some miracles

Summary

 - The widow of a prophet has fallen on hard times. Elisha creates unlimited oil for her to sell.
 - A woman does Elisha favours. He arranges for her and her husband to conceive, despite his advanced age.
 - Later, the son dies. Elisha raises him from the dead.
 - A stew dish is made for many that inadvertently includes poison. Elisha purifies it with flour.
 - Elisha feeds 100 people with apparently insufficient amounts of food.
 - Naaman, the commander of the Syrian army, is cured of leprosy on Elisha's instruction.
 - Naaman offers payment, but Elisha declines. As Naaman departs, Elisha's servant Gehazi chases after him and asks for money after all, which he keeps for himself. Elisha visits Naaman's leprosy on Gehazi in punishment.

Questions and Observations

1) Making food go a long way - we've heard that elsewhere! Though not yet on this particular traverse...

[ttf_Baron von Bone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Jul 04, 2016, 10:02AMThe phrase we have here is "small boys". That doesn't sound like big tough youths to me. I've tried feeding the Hebrew text into Google translate to see if something is lost in translation, but unfortunately it does a very poor job of the verse. I note that other English versions just say "boys". So where does "small" come from? Perhaps someone with textual knowledge might chime in. It would seem a strange word to insert if the original word had no connotation of it - I would expect it to be a clarification based on the original text designed to avoid the possibility that "boys" could be charitably read to mean a savage horde.
 
This is one of the clearest spots in the Bible where the will of God seems not just capricious or ill-considered, as we've often noted, but in fact downright appalling. Sorry about that.
Also, this is where the accommodation of a sacred cow/religious sensibility rears up in a significantly problematic sense. It's not necessarily dangerous or unethical, but it's a clear feint in that direction at least. It's the very beginning of when this amped up version of tribalism starts heading into really ugly territory. It's cause for some concern, but probably not alarm at this point. either that or it's a demonstration of the other-worldness character of a whole lot of religious "belief", and while that can manifest in "this" world in ugly ways too, it's at least detached in terms of reverence for primary religious artifacts like the Bible.

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Jul 04, 2016, 10:12AM2 Kings 3 text

...
 - Moab attacks Israel, but does badly.
 - The Moabite king sacrifices his eldest son by burning, and the battle turns, with Israel departing.

Questions and Observations

1) Apparently the Moabite king's human sacrifice (to Moloch, presumably?) worked a miracle of its own in their favour. So the Bible declares that other gods can have power against Yahweh, interestingly.

Not necessarily. The bible is clear elsewhere that other God is the one with power and that god's are powerless fakes and the text is not clear about a few points.  So I think it would be out of character and unlikely for the text to be saying that another god defeated God.  It says that there was an offering, that wrath came against Israel and that they left and went home.  Its not clear about:
- who was the king's son sacrificed too
- where did the wrath against Israel come from and what form did it take? eg Was it an unstated god, or the Moabites?  Why was the god not named?
- why did the the Israelites withdraw and what was the nature of the withdrawal. Was it in fear? did the Moabite army rise up and beat them? were they disgusted by the sacrifice? was it superstitious fear?  It sounds too me like they just packed up and went home rather than they were routed.

But why is it so unclear?

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: Baron von Bone on Jul 05, 2016, 06:16AM
a sacred cow .. rears up
I know what your metaphor is supposed to mean, but the idea of a cow rearing up is funny.

And I didn't say anything about "big tough" boys just a gang of more than 40 boys.  How many?  I imagine that if 2 bears attacked a group of small boys they would run away and the bears would only be able to maul some of them.  If the bears got 25% of them that would mean that there were about 200 boys.  I reckon a gang of 200 12 year old boys could be at least as intimidating as a few big tough guys.

And they are showing total disrespect for God by telling his prophet to get lost.  And God responds with a lesson in respect.

Quote from: Baron von Bone on Jul 05, 2016, 06:16AM
Also, this is where the accommodation of a sacred cow/religious sensibility rears up in a significantly problematic sense. It's not necessarily dangerous or unethical, but it's a clear feint in that direction at least. It's the very beginning of when this amped up version of tribalism starts heading into really ugly territory. It's cause for some concern, but probably not alarm at this point. either that or it's a demonstration of the other-worldness character of a whole lot of religious "belief", and while that can manifest in "this" world in ugly ways too, it's at least detached in terms of reverence for primary religious artifacts like the Bible.

I didn't understand exactly what you were getting at.  Can you explain?

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Jul 05, 2016, 02:55AMIt seems clear to me that the people that wrote this stuff down were not confused on the subject - they believed that there were multiple competing gods. But the idea never gets raised in modern Christianity, so far as I've seen.

This seems to be a continual point of difference in our understanding: whether The Lord is one of a number of God's on a similar sort of level that are competing (for worshippers, to be top god ...)  I'll check it out again, but I'm pretty sure its not how the "false" gods are represented.  They are always shown to be pretender gods and not real ones.  IHMO of course.

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Jul 05, 2016, 06:04AM1) Making food go a long way - we've heard that elsewhere! Though not yet on this particular traverse...
Raising the dead son was a copy of one of Elijah's miracles too.

And Jesus did them both too.

There is certainly a lot of miracles happening.  I've noticed that miracles come in waves in the bible.  Moses did lots, and then not too many until Elijah and Elisha where they seem quite commonplace.  Then there were few.  Most of the time (Moses and Jesus and Acts) they are signs of authority, verifying that the person doing the miracles was from God and you should pay attention to what he was saying.  But Elisha so far just seems to be doing gratuitous miracles for no reason: eg they are not accompanied by any significant prophetic announcement.  Why?  Is he just showing off?  Even if you think the bible is a fiction, writers write things in there story for a reason, but there doesn't seem to be a reason for them, except Elisha is a prophet and God does miracles through him.

[ttf_drizabone]

2 Kings 6 text
2 Kings 7 text

Highlights

 - More miracles

Summary

 - Elisha makes an iron axe head float
 - Eliaha reports the King of Syria's secret plans to the King of Israel.  And keeps doing it.
 - The Syrians surround Dothan but God blinds them and Elisha tells them that the droids they seek are not there and leads them away.
 - The Syrians laid seige to Samaria and the city was starving.  The king blamed Elisha and was going to kill him.
 - Elisha said that there would be plenty of affordable food tomorrow.  The kings captain didn't believe him. Elisha said he would see it but die before he could eat any of it.
 - That night The Lord scared the Syrians who ran away leaving their food, supplies and treasure.
 - The Samaritans ran out to get the food and trampled the captain on the way.


Questions and Observations

1) I had something semi-significant to say but I've forgotten it.

[ttf_drizabone]

2 Kings 8 text
2 Kings 9 text


Highlights -

 - more about kings

Summary

 - The Shunamite woman from chapter 4 lived in Philistia for 7 years during a famine.  when she came back she went to the king to ask that her land be restored to her.  Just at that time Elisha's servant Gehazi was telling the king all the things that Elisha had done.  when the king realised that it was this womens son that had been restored to life, he restored all her property.
 - Ben-hadad the king of Syria was sick and got Hazael to ask Elisha if he was going to recover.  Elisha said he would but that he would die.  Elisha wept at the prophecy because he could see that the new king would be cruel to Israel.
 - The king recovered and was murdered as Elisha said.
 - In the 5th year of the reign of Joram (king of israel) Jehoram, the son of Jehoshaphat, commenced his reign in Judah
 - After this Edom and Libnah revolted and Joram attacked them. he did other things and then died after that.
 - In the 12th year of the reign of Joram, Ahaziah the son of Jehoram, king of Judah, began to reign.  He also was a bad king like Ahab.
 - Ahaziah  and Joram made war on Hazael, king of syria

 - Elisha got one of his prophets to annoint Jehu the son of Jehoshaphat as king of Israel. 
 - The prophet did this quietly so he wouldn't get killed by the current kings supporters and then ran away as soon as he could.
 - Jehu told Ahaziah's servants what had happened and they declared him king.
 - Jehu kills Ahaziah and Joram,
 - In the eleventh year of Joram the son of Ahab, Ahaziah began to reign over Judah.
 - Jehu kills Jezebel, just as prophecy had foretold.

Questions and Observations

1) So maybe all of Elisha's miracles was so that the Shunamite would get her land back.  Isn't that nice.
2) It gets confusing the way he swaps back and forward between Israel and Judah.
3) I think Jehu was Ahaziah's uncle.
4) Why is the the beginning of Ahaziah's reign mentioned again in v29 just after he's killed?  And why say it was in the 12th year in 8:25 and 11 in 9:29?
5) The different in count is because Judah started counted year 1 as the first full calendar year and Israel counted the first partial year as year 1, so that's not an issue.

[ttf_MoominDave]

 - It's quite striking to me that Elisha essentially commands Yahweh in this part of the narrative. Elisha asks for something, and it is done, to the letter. Yahweh has not been nearly so biddable before.
 - Jehoram of Judah was married to Ahab of Israel's daughter. While the narrative tends to present the two kingdoms in a good-vs-bad light, this detail and the described combined military campaigning suggests that things were not politically so simple.

Chronology (based on Shoshenq's Canaan campaign being in 925 BC and that being the 5th year of Rehoboam's reign):