TromboneChat

WW on the bay http://cgi.ebay.com/Early-Williams-and-Wallace-Gold-Plated-Trombone-L-A-/300539146108?pt=Brass_Instruments&hash=item45f9876f7c

What a steal !

T.

I want it right now - i'm sure it'll be way over my budget come closing, though.

Whats your budget?   

I have a silver Wallace I am thinking about passing on to someone else. So this auction should be interesting!

Don't do me like that John. 

T.

Quote from: Dan Martin on Mar 21, 2011, 05:46PMWhats your budget?  

nunya bidness ya' hoarder.   

Get out your wallet Troy. Then it wont tempt you at all.

Quote from: jnoxon on Mar 22, 2011, 03:41PMGet out your wallet Troy. Then it wont tempt you at all.
I'd probably need someone else's wallet. 

T.

so i was bored at home tonight and decided to re-read this thread again from page one.

Quote from: jnoxon on Jun 04, 2009, 12:51PMOk here is an idea I have had for some time now and mentioned to a few guys. I would like to put together a website about Earl and Bob Williams and the things they built, Wallace Williams trombones, Earl Williams trombones, Bass trumpets, Trumpets, hand guns etc.

Chris Charvat at HN White.com encouraged me to do this some time ago. He did it to preserve the family history. His Great Grand Mother was Catherine White who lived next door to him. He realized that when she passed so would this legacy of history.

I have a few guidelines I would like to have in place:

1.)  Give me pictures, of you horns. Any information you have about purchase, previous owners, serial number, etc. BUT only information you have first hand knowledge of. No hearsay, just first hand knowledge. Not everyone can own Tommy Dorsey’s personal horn! Just what you know. IE: I bought a model 6 from Dick Nash in 1992.

2.) If you do not wish to have this information on a public website. Just tell me and it will be held confidentially and only accessible by me. Pictures will allow me to look at design changes, construction techniques etc…

3.) I will need help! I know nothing, zip, nada about website design! So if you would like to help. I will carefully consider each and every offer to do so.

4.) Do not send any information prior to the 5th of July. My wife and I are headed out on a road trip to Virginia to see our Grandkids! I don’t want my mailbox to overflow and kick it back to you or worse yet lose any information.

5.) Any Williams memorabilia you have would be welcome as well! Price lists. Correspondence, pictures anything you might think is interesting send it.

A lot of guys have suggested this to me over recent weeks. And I think it is a good project! So let’s do it!

If you know any Williams owners who are not on the forum lets get the word out to the as well. If you know former Williams owners contact them as well. Let’s gather all the info we can.


Let me know if you have question, send me an email!

john

john, are you still looking at doing this? i'm more than happy to help in anyway possible.

Quote from: Bach42BOS on Apr 17, 2011, 02:47AMso i was bored at home tonight and decided to re-read this thread again from page one.
john, are you still looking at doing this? i'm more than happy to help in anyway possible.It took me a long time to get around to putting up a site, and in the end I just started small and am adding content as I go. My goal is a significant update every week (either a new set of horn pix or some new information).

Quote from: JohnL on Apr 17, 2011, 08:08AMIt took me a long time to get around to putting up a site, and in the end I just started small and am adding content as I go. My goal is a significant update every week (either a new set of horn pix or some new information).
glad to hear this! if you need help, please let us know as i'm sure we'd all be glad to help in any way possible.

Yes I am still attempting to do this. I have a class on websites coming up shortly with the new iMac I just bought. I have a ton of info about Earl and not so much about Bob. Old articles on Spike Wallace from Overture, the local 47 rag, and a lot of personal knowledge. I would love to have the help! Thanks for the offer. How about we move this to personal email? [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url]

j

I did forget to mention that the particular posting you mention garnered 0, zip, none nada replys............. So I assume not much interest there. I have a series of Emails between myself and Jay Armstrong about his tenure as the owner of Williams. It is a matter of getting it all written in some kind of order.

Quote from: jnoxon on Apr 17, 2011, 12:07PMYes I am still attempting to do this. I have a class on websites coming up shortly with the new iMac I just bought. I have a ton of info about Earl and not so much about Bob. Old articles on Spike Wallace from Overture, the local 47 rag, and a lot of personal knowledge. I would love to have the help! Thanks for the offer. How about we move this to personal email? [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url]

j
hi john, glad to hear that you'll be having a class on website design soon! anyways, email sent!
Quote from: jnoxon on Apr 17, 2011, 12:10PMI did forget to mention that the particular posting you mention garnered 0, zip, none nada replys............. So I assume not much interest there. I have a series of Emails between myself and Jay Armstrong about his tenure as the owner of Williams. It is a matter of getting it all written in some kind of order.
ohhh so you were able to get in touch with Jay regarding what he knows from when he owned Williams. I remember reading that Doug was gonna message you his info so you could get in touch. i don't recall you posting anything regarding it after though?? still can't believe that you didn't get a single nibble after that post.

Cool!

Quote from: jnoxon on Apr 17, 2011, 12:10PMI did forget to mention that the particular posting you mention garnered 0, zip, none nada replys............. So I assume not much interest there. I have a series of Emails between myself and Jay Armstrong about his tenure as the owner of Williams. It is a matter of getting it all written in some kind of order.

Hmm, I thought I responded to you via PM regarding helping you with the project.  Anyway, I'll help in whatever way I can.  I can take pictures of my Bob made 6 and 8 (when I get the latter back from being refurbed), both of which have the single radius crooks.  I can also take pics of my Earl made Burbank 4.  I can help with whatever else you need too.

Aloha,
Richard

We had talked, and I was aware of your horns Richard. But I expected more than that from the Wms community. You and spoke prior to my post as I did with Drew!

I've got plenty of pictures of the two I have owned.  I still have the L.A arrow head .522 bore.  Count me in.

I've got two (LA arrowhead CTW 4, and a W&W).

Count me in as well, if I can do anything to help.

T.

John,

I guess I didn't start following the Williams thread until after you posted your request for help, or I would have responded.

If you can provide the following:

1) web hosting space and a login (that is, register the domain you want and buy hosting services)
2) content you want posted (photos, articles, etc.)
3) a rough idea of how you want it organized

then I can create web pages for you easily enough.  It won't be super glossy since I'm not a graphics designer, but it will be pleasant, functional, and free(!). 

Here's an example web page I did for a local brass group:

http://www.encorebrass.org/

Ignore the banner ads on that page - the group went with a cheapo free hosting service that adds ads to all web pages automatically.

Here's a little surprising fact about the Williams 6 -- a Bundy outer slide slips right on the 6's inners and works very well.  The slide lock bit on the Bundy hits the barrel of the Williams, but otherwise.....

How do I know this? I was just proving to a student that her trombone was the same size as mine and BAM.

I just saw this auction from BAC Horn Doctor:

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-Earl-Williams-Model-6-Trombone-House-PROTOTYPE-/270742291904?pt=Brass_Instruments&hash=item3f097f85c0

The text of this auction confuses me, because Mike Corrigan says that BAC bought all of the Williams tooling when Calicchio closed.  I was under the strong impression that John Duda (now in Oregon) owns the original Williams tooling, presumably brought with him from Calicchio. 

Can anyone reconcile these two stories for me?  Perhaps the answer is just that there was more tooling than that which was in the deal BAC bought.  If that's the case, I think what I'd be most interested in is where is the Williams 6 bell mandrel?  Is there more than one of them?

John  Duda does in fact own the tooling. With out a doubt! Buyer beware!

BAC got a lot of stuff from that auction - they were selling loose bells a while back. 

they didn't claim to get all of the tooling, at least that's not what i read into the description... said they got some tooling and a mandrel maybe?  i'm sure earl had more than one mandrel.   besides, they didn't build that horn... i'm not sure where anyone got that idea. 

 John Duda got the lion's share of the tooling from what i've heard.  He's still making great horns.  A friend has one of his 6's - i think it's late or post tulsa - great horn.

DJ broke the story first:

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,43965.msg733537.html#msg733537

I followed:

Quote from: sly fox on Jun 07, 2010, 12:22PMfrom mike's facebook yesterday:

Mike Corrigan Didn't want to announce it prematurely (to avoid more competition from showing up...) BUT Andy and I went to the Calicchio/Earl Williams bank foreclosure auction yesterday and we scored some amazing pieces of history!! We'll continue using some equipment that has been being used since the 1920's to create superb hand crafted brass instruments. We also have hoards of original parts!

as did DJ

Quote from: dj kennedy on Jun 07, 2010, 04:10PMjohn  must still have  name/rights  etc  ////

donelson bells  //looks like about 30  flares    piled up in the back of  the van
  wood drawers   w parts   out of earls workbench
lotsa  misc  ///////////
   did getzen  do the donelson flares  ????????????????????????????????

I saw the horn BAC has up on Ebay last night and about ****.  That horn looks like hell. I thought he should be ashamed of putting out there as a Williams horn, much less looking like a piece of crap as well.  Just a complete con job manufactured from guesses and suppositions.  For all we know the bell was a reject that Earl never laid his eyes much less his hands on.  And need I specifically mention the solder job on the ferrules?  Would anyone here buy a horn that was put together by someone that soldered that POORLY!!!!!  My GOD!!!   Thats just ugly!  And the felt pen number six????  What is he thinking that is proof its a 6 bell???   


HOGWASH!!!!!!!

On a different note....

There's a good movie showing... 

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,56271.0.html

T.

Dan, unless you have proof (or a good reason) to state what you're stating, i'd suggest you not drag Mike's name through the mud like that. 

I'm starting to wonder what stake you have in all this... what your interests might be.

Mike has always been an upstanding guy in my own personal dealings and those of people i highly respect.  If there is something untoward afoot, then by all means air it out, we need to know.  If this is just supposition or sour grapes on your part, then give it a rest.

Hey guys!!!! I thought I better step in here pretty quick to prevent any more misinformation.

In the listing I clearly stated that we purchased parts and tooling 'that was left behind.' Duda fit a surprising amount of equipment into one Budget truck before he 'got out of Dodge' with the Bank situation. So, NO I do not own most of the juicy saucy stuff from Earl. If that was the case believe me I would have made more noise about it when I obtained it.

As a craftsman and someone who appreciates the history behind Earl however, I truly treasure what I do have. Yes, it needs restoration, but to own the actual bell spinning lathe that Earl used back in the day is cool beyond words can describe. I do in fact have several of the original bell 'flare' spinning mandrels. All but one of them are actually made to fit his original lathe. For clarification, the bell flare is only the first 6 inches or so of the wide end of the bell. (Not the complete bell mandrel)

We also got the original Williams parts cabinet. Inside was a treasure trove of original Earl parts, small machine parts (tools to make bead rings, etc) and small tooling used to draw receivers and cork barrels, etc). We have a handful of the original fluted handslide grips. We have crooks, valves, loops, bracing, tuning slides, goosenecks, receivers, etc etc etc. We even found what is either a bullet mold or an arrow head mold. (Earl was an enthusiast when it came to weapons. But let's not get off track)

Now in regards to wether this horn is a real horn or not. I'm a bit embarrassed that people have any doubts about my integrity. I'm the first to admit that my communication skills over the years have not been the best, and that in some cases our turn around time on major projects was not expeditious. Most of that is behind at this point now. I'm fortunate to be surrounded by some amazing people know who are doing their best to keep organized with the amount of things we're doing. As far as integrity with what I do as a craftsman and expert with vintage horns, I truly hope people can respect that I have enough knowledge to describe most vintage wind instruments on the market. Especially something that I believe I have more then average knowledge about like the Williams trombones. Yes, we have the capabilities of knowing that the bell is an original 6 taper. Yes, the number 6 on the bell is just written on and is not stamped. Pointing out that the 6 was hand written on the bell is merely a point that I wanted to include in the listing. Just as if there was a dent on the bell flare that I would have pointed out should that have been the case.  We do have a mold of the original 6 bell. In addition our Classic model bell is a copy of the Williams 6. So I can tell you without any doubt that these parts are in fact 6 parts.

As for the 'ugly' patina. That is absolutely in the eye of the beholder. I think the original patina is absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, the solder joints weren't polished up or cleaned, but this instrument was obviously not intended to leave the factory. The truth is, there is NO way anyone can falsify the patina that this instrument has. The only way for a horn like this to obtain such a dark look without literally sitting in a shop for 20+ years at least. I have had horns in my shop that have been exposed to the elements, and have instrument in my garage that have hung for 10+ years, and they are nowhere near the patina this horn has.  As a collector of musical instruments I would MUCH rather have a horn with the original patina then to get a highly polished 'restored' horn.

 Yes, we could have overhauled this horn to be like new. There was nothing stopping me from just doing that and erasing any of the numbers (which I pointed out were likely 'Donnelson period' numbers after they purchased Williams and moved it to TN) I am simply leaving the decision of cleaning the horn up to the person who purchases the horn. Perhaps the winner goes to someone who does not care about the patina or story behind the patina. If they simply want to play it because of the way it sounds, that is their right. I just didn't want to make that decision for someone. Perhaps there is someone here on the forum who appreciates the fact that the horn has such a unique look. I certainly don't think I did anything wrong by leaving that up to the winner.

So it is clear: If someone did want to make this horn pretty we'd be looking at the following: Ultrasonic Clean and Chemical Treatment - $85. Cleaning up solder joints and polishing the lead staining - $35. You could of course do a full restoration to make the horn look new with Epoxy lacquer if you'd like. Just chemically cleaning and cleaning up the solder joints is some real minimal stuff. I just wouldn't do it if I was going to keep the horn. Obviously that is just my personal preference.

At the end of the day, this is a superb playing horn. It without any question has original Williams 6 components. Call it a 'Donnelson Williams'  call it a 'first round Calicchio Williams', call it a 'Bastard Williams with Earl or Bob parts'. I really don't know when this horn was from. I've just detailed what I do know in the auction.

I realize that this isn't a standard vintage horn that we're offering. I hope anyone who has concerns will specify the concerns either to me or even here on the forum so I can specifically answer what the concerns are. It might be a good learning experience for all of us to address specific things about the Williams horn. After all, that is what this platform is intended for. Let's please just avoid ambiguous accusations. I admit I don't know everything about the Williams company. In fact nobody alive does. I know this to be true. Collectively among craftsmen and collectors, we do know a lot about Earl and his company. But this is certainly an instrument that would require someone to present specific evidence for us to know the history behind it.

Last thing, so everyone understands: I did work with Duda in Tulsa to try to bring back the Williams. Obviously things didn't work out. That had nothing to do with anything specific. I love Duda, and realize that the man is an incredible craftsman with unparalleled knowledge when it comes to many aspects of musical instrument manufacturing. The funds were simply not there and I couldn't afford to invest any more of my time with the project because of that. As it is public knowledge the company was foreclosed on by a bank. I don't know if there are conspiracy theory's floating around, but if there are, they should be mute. A bank doesn't just 'foreclose' on a business after going a couple of months without paying their bills. That is a process that takes a lot of time before serious action is taken. My stepping away was about a year before foreclosure happened.

Nobody has mentioned the fact that we have a clip of Elliot playing it. I'd love to hear feedback about how it you guys think he sounds playing the instrument, and if what he is producing in your opinion lines up with other musicians that play a Williams. This is a great opportunity to analyze the sound an incredible musician like Elliot can possess on a Williams vs. other great musicians like Dick Nash. Can anyone comment on their opinion of what the horn may be providing compared to their sound on other equipment?

Sorry this post is a bit lengthy. I just wanted to make sure to get some words in before things got too out of hand!! Thanks guys!

--Mike C

Just an observation. This comment was posted on our facebook page about the horn:

Evan Patrick Shie Wow, "leaving that instrument the way it is was a good choice. It really does look amazing."

I suppose if everyone had the same taste esthetically we'd have some lonely ladies out there. (and of course visa-versa)

I'm sure the thing plays outstandingly.  And it has a trial period.  What's the deal?  Mr. Corrigan is not forcing anyone to buy it, and to be honest it wouldn't take any forcing on his part to get me to buy it based on the dealings I've had with him already, assuming I was in the market for a like horn.  Plus, I personally think it looks really killing.  I'd show up anywhere rocking that thing. 

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but maybe trying it out first would be a bit more charitable? 

It's a cool horn. 
I've already been outbid of course. 

I think people just need to read the description very closely...

Like: "This instrument right here is what we believe to be an original Earl bell section".
No way to tell for sure, since it isn't stamped: LA, Burbank, Donneldson, Calicchio, etc.
Hard to tell which era.

Still desirable? Oh yea!
I don't imagine it would fetch $3K, like some original stamp LA & Burbank "Earl made" horns will bring, but I figure it'll go well over my current budget. 

I'd polish it, and leave it raw brass. The patina is too dark for my taste (IMHO).
But that's nothing a can of wrights brass polish wouldn't remedy! 

Good luck on the auction. 

T.

I've never had the opportunity ($$) to make a purchase from BACHORNDOCTOR.  I have met Mike and others and I have been very impressed by their attitude and desire to produce trombones.

I've been to the shop, taken the tour and seen some of the material, I don't know if it was all of the material they salvaged.  As I understand it, without their intervention, what they got was going to either the scrap yard or the garbage dump.  If memory serves, my visit was almost a year ago, I saw the lathe, the tool box, tubes, miscellaneous joints, and bells.

Whether people have had problems with them regarding communications, deadlines etc etc etc and so forth and so on, I have no info.  However, it isn't unusual for that to happen with any business in my experience.

in my book, for what it is worth, BACHORNDOCTOR and its personnel are ok in my book.

IMVHO.

Quote from: Dan Martin on Apr 29, 2011, 08:07AM  And need I specifically mention the solder job on the ferrules?

Dan, can you tell me exactly what's wrong with that solder job? I see some pretty normal bleed and penetration, no slop, maybe a bit of oxidation, but nothing I'd write off as a bad solder job.

All,

I have a trombone that I bought in the early 90's.  It is an Earl Williams of some type.
Hoping you guys can help me date it.

Earl Williams
Los Angeles California on the bell

Arrow Head counter weight

Gold plated

All press fit.  Not  having a lock for the slide or to insert the the slide to the bell. 

The bell is 7.5" I believe.

It plays very well but it has some really idiosyncratic positions. 

Freest blowing horn I have ever played and this includes Bill Broughton's Larry Minick thinned out Bach.

There is a 2 on the bell close to the slide area.  Also a 1 that is below this and to the right.

I will be glad to put up some pics on a site if anyone has some info.

Not looking to sell it.  Just want to find out about it.

Thanks to anybody who knows about this.

Don Cornutt

Elliot Mason sounds killing on the horn, Mike.  Sounds like a williams to me, but i reckon elliot sounds that way on everything he touches.

I'd love to have it - and keep it that way.  It'll probably get too rich for me but we'll see.

Dcornutt - how much you want for it?

Quote from: dcornutt on Apr 29, 2011, 01:36PMNot looking to sell it.  Just want to find out about it.Could you post some pictures and verify the bell diameter?

Based on what you've told us, I'd ballpark it as being made in the late 1930's or early 1940's - before WWII, but after the breakup of Williams & Wallace.

   

Quote from: Exzaclee on Apr 29, 2011, 05:03PMElliot Mason sounds killing on the horn, Mike.  Sounds like a williams to me, but i reckon elliot sounds that way on everything he touches.

I'd love to have it - and keep it that way.  It'll probably get too rich for me but we'll see.

Dcornutt - how much you want for it?

It is not for sale.  Sorry.   Maybe my wife will sell it when I die.   I love the horn.  Played my dad's old 6H 1964 model yesterday.  A great horn but nothing like the Williams.  I can't go back to my old 3B that I started on from the 70's.
The bell is 7.5 inch.   The only nit with the horn is the slide is not as good as either the 6H or the 3B.  Of course, it is a lot older too.

When I can figure out embedding pics, I will get some up today.

Here is my first try at pics.

More pics

Sweet.  Congratulations on a nice looking and probably great blowing horn.   

Aloha,
Richard

Quote from: Exzaclee on Apr 29, 2011, 09:24AMDan, unless you have proof (or a good reason) to state what you're stating, I'd suggest you not drag Mike's name through the mud like that. 

I'm starting to wonder what stake you have in all this... what your interests might be.

Mike has always been an upstanding guy in my own personal dealings and those of people i highly respect.  If there is something untoward afoot, then by all means air it out, we need to know.  If this is just supposition or sour grapes on your part, then give it a rest.



You talking to me?  You think I have a stake in this?  Please.  I was just being honest.  The thing looks like crap.  The solder job is atrocious.

Quote from: Dan Martin on May 01, 2011, 07:41AMYou talking to me?  You think I have a stake in this?  Please.  I was just being honest.  The thing looks like crap.  The solder job is atrocious.

I'll ask again--what's your basis for that judgment? Are you a tech? Have you looked at a lot of solder joints before they were buffed and lacquered? Are you aware of what many years of storage of an un-buffed and un-lacquered solder joint will do to its aesthetic properties?

Dan, you're attacking Mike Corrigan for displaying a horn without buffing it out, and you're attacking some unknown tech for solder work which to my eye looks perfectly serviceable and better than a lot of what I've seen. I can fully understand Zack's speculation as to your motives.

Quote from: Dan Martin on May 01, 2011, 07:41AMYou talking to me?  You think I have a stake in this?  Please.  I was just being honest.  The thing looks like crap.  The solder job is atrocious.

yes Dan, I am talking to you.  My appreciation for Bobby D aside, it is your right to state your opinion that you think the thing looks like crap.  When you start calling into question the motives of a respected brassman in these parts, i believe it my right to call you out on it.

That solder job looks like any good solder job would before it gets cleaned up.  how many horns have you put together, Dan?

My point ZACTLY  it needs to be cleaned up.  end of story let it rest.  Its just my opinion.  The horn was never built by EARL WILLIAMS.  He would have never sold an instrument with his name on it that looked like that.  And if he thought it made it play better he would have sold them that way.  The truth is is that horn is no more an Earl Williams horn than it is just a bunch of old parts that were thrown together.  Most of which were made by someone other than Earl Williams after he died.  And Earl the ARTIST!!!!!  Would never have sold a horn that looked like that.  Thats my guess anyway.  And it is just that, a guess 


And to fair to Mike.  I have nothing against him.  I just think this horn can't be called an Earl Williams horn.  In fact I don't think the ones made after he died can be called Earl Williams horns.  Earl WAS AN ARTIST!!!!!!!!!   Respect that!!!!!!  Or call it a rat rod.  It ain't no model T.

can we be sure who built it????   is there truly any way to know????

Dan: did you actually bother to read the description?

sorry.  DAN.

did you actually read the description in the auction?  So far, the majority of unverifiable claims are coming from you, not Mike.

Quote from: Dan Martin on May 01, 2011, 09:43AMMy point ZACTLY  it needs to be cleaned up.  end of story let it rest.  Its just my opinion. 

Then why not say "My preference is to see horns like this cleaned up"? It does not "need" to be cleaned up. I generally prefer vintage horns that haven't been gone over and essentially rebuilt by someone other than the original maker. Would it be more of a Williams if it had been disassembled and put back together? I'm just not following your logic.

Take it for what it is. A horn with the same dimensions and hardware as a Williams 6, found in a pile of stuff that was originally owned by Earl Williams and left as-found. If Mike Corrigan had decided to have it buffed, engraved and lacquered (which I've seen done many times with horns like this) then there would be call for griping.

It could be anything. A factory reject. The best horn Earl ever built, which he kept in the shop as a standard to measure other horns by. An "apprentice piece" built by a tech being trained. A Bundy set up with Williams hardware as a joke. Whatever it is, it's what was found in the pile, as it was found in the pile with the exception of aligning the slide and the water key. I see no reason to attack the seller.