TromboneChat

RJMason wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:42 pm I bought one of Drew’s Williams horns almost two years ago, a model 7.

I love the instrument. I have been curious because the horn has a serial # indicating it was made by Earl, but has the Nickel slide crook characteristic of Bob’s horns.

While it also has the F Attachment, it doesn’t have the “J bend” tuning mechanism. Has a normal tuning slide with one Williams brace attached.

I wonder if it started its life as an earl made Burbank 6, and later on it was converted to a trigger horn and had the nickel crook added? There are no cosmetic signs of the modifications, it looks very clean and well done.

Also nickel doesn’t oxidize as fast as yellow brass but the crook definitely looks “newer” than the outer slide tubes which have a bit of corrosion but still perform wonderfully.

Don’t know if we will ever know, but these horns are works of art and decades ahead of their time! Would love to try a model 10 one day!

HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:11 am Just realized that Leanit’s horn and the one attached by bellend are sibling 10s!

Leanit wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:16 pm There are probably fewer rules to these prototype/small-batch horns than we expect. Anything is possible.

Leanit wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:17 am

HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:11 am Just realized that Leanit’s horn and the one attached by bellend are sibling 10s!

Indeed. Mine is 1146.

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:38 pm Hawaiiguy, first off your trombone collection just keeps getting more ridiculous! I'm jealous!

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:38 pm Hawaiiguy, first off your trombone collection just keeps getting more ridiculous! I'm jealous!

Second off... Does this second 10 also have the fatter bell throat?

Leanit wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:19 pm

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:38 pm Hawaiiguy, first off your trombone collection just keeps getting more ridiculous! I'm jealous!

Second only to the shop towel collection!

HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:55 pm Contemplating on doing a double valve/trigger setup on my Williams 10 that used to belong to Karl DeKarske. Wondering if I should opt for a drop-in second valve or have a second valve added to the existing setup. If I had the money I’d buy the 10 for sale over at Horn Stash, but it’s just too much. Any recommendations from the Williams folk?

HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:55 pm Contemplating on doing a double valve/trigger setup on my Williams 10 that used to belong to Karl DeKarske. Wondering if I should opt for a drop-in second valve or have a second valve added to the existing setup. If I had the money I’d buy the 10 for sale over at Horn Stash, but it’s just too much. Any recommendations from the Williams folk?

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:32 am

HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:55 pm Contemplating on doing a double valve/trigger setup on my Williams 10 that used to belong to Karl DeKarske. Wondering if I should opt for a drop-in second valve or have a second valve added to the existing setup. If I had the money I’d buy the 10 for sale over at Horn Stash, but it’s just too much. Any recommendations from the Williams folk?

Take this from someone who just modified their Minick bass with a similar J bend setup. I would not touch the Williams. Get the drop in valve made if you need a second valve.

My reasoning is actually not because you're modifying the Williams, I'm ok with that. It's actually the J bend design that is a pain to work with.

Because of the lack of bracing inherent in the design, it makes putting the horn together a nightmare for your tech. I'm sure Minick and Williams both created specific jigs to put these J bend horns together. Your tech has to essentially freeball putting everything together and there are only so many places you can brace the horn once it's fully put together. Super easy to have tension sneak into the horn when you're freeballing it like that.

You'd also have to find a second valve to use and decide if you want to use "new" valves, rotax, Olsen ect., or another Conn or Holton rotor. Depending on your choice, especially if you decide to use a close tolerance valve like the Olsens, a number of problems can crop up because of the J bend. I really like the Olsens but they were difficult to get working right on my horn because of the J bend design.

At some point, I'm going to put together a post on my experiences with modifying my Minick. Again, I don't think you would have any regrets modifying your Williams to have a second fixed valve but it's 100% not as simple as just slapping a new valve in the horn. I learned that the hard way!

elmsandr wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:07 am

HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:55 pm Contemplating on doing a double valve/trigger setup on my Williams 10 that used to belong to Karl DeKarske. Wondering if I should opt for a drop-in second valve or have a second valve added to the existing setup. If I had the money I’d buy the 10 for sale over at Horn Stash, but it’s just too much. Any recommendations from the Williams folk?

I forget which one of yours is which, but making/getting a drop in valve for the one with the Holton valve section would probably be a more straightforward task.

I would not alter the one with the pigtail. I would consider adding a drop in valve there, but making something that worked aesthetically there would be a little more challenging. If you are looking for a permanent mod, I think going for a nice dependent set on that one with the Holton section could be a mod that would require very little, if any permanent modification to the horn.

Cheers,
Andy

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:32 am

HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:55 pm Contemplating on doing a double valve/trigger setup on my Williams 10 that used to belong to Karl DeKarske. Wondering if I should opt for a drop-in second valve or have a second valve added to the existing setup. If I had the money I’d buy the 10 for sale over at Horn Stash, but it’s just too much. Any recommendations from the Williams folk?

Take this from someone who just modified their Minick bass with a similar J bend setup. I would not touch the Williams. Get the drop in valve made if you need a second valve.

My reasoning is actually not because you're modifying the Williams, I'm ok with that. It's actually the J bend design that is a pain to work with.

Because of the lack of bracing inherent in the design, it makes putting the horn together a nightmare for your tech. I'm sure Minick and Williams both created specific jigs to put these J bend horns together. Your tech has to essentially freeball putting everything together and there are only so many places you can brace the horn once it's fully put together. Super easy to have tension sneak into the horn when you're freeballing it like that.

You'd also have to find a second valve to use and decide if you want to use "new" valves, rotax, Olsen ect., or another Conn or Holton rotor. Depending on your choice, especially if you decide to use a close tolerance valve like the Olsens, a number of problems can crop up because of the J bend. I really like the Olsens but they were difficult to get working right on my horn because of the J bend design.

At some point, I'm going to put together a post on my experiences with modifying my Minick. Again, I don't think you would have any regrets modifying your Williams to have a second fixed valve but it's 100% not as simple as just slapping a new valve in the horn. I learned that the hard way!

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:43 pm I'm sorry, but there is nothing intrinsically harder about building a TIS bell section..... actually, I would say, having built up both, the TIS section is easier. Building 'freehand' is LESS likely to result in tension in the build, unless the builder decides for some strange reason to force parts together. Bracing is a black art for sure, but often less is more in that department.

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:15 pm

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:43 pm I'm sorry, but there is nothing intrinsically harder about building a TIS bell section..... actually, I would say, having built up both, the TIS section is easier. Building 'freehand' is LESS likely to result in tension in the build, unless the builder decides for some strange reason to force parts together. Bracing is a black art for sure, but often less is more in that department.

Thanks for your post Chris! I agree with you and think I could have been a little specific with my post. When I said J bend I meant a movable J bend tuning slide like on my horn and the Williams 10.

The specific issue we ran into was the alignment between the female tuning receiver part of the J bend and the male tuning bit extending out of the rotor were ever so slightly off. So visually it looked fine and the tuning slide moved freely but that extra small bit of tension caused issues with binding on the Olsen rotors. Took some trouble shooting to figure out what was going on but it was a quick to fix once we did. This problem of course never would have happened with a standard tuning slide or a fixed J bend.

I don't think it's impossible to put together a horn with a movable J bend but it's for sure finicky to put together.

My horn was also super picky about bracing. We finally figured out the best place for them but it took a couple of tries to get there.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:07 pm Apparently Jesus Torres learned the "value" of this "rare" trombone, even though he had to ask the world what it was that he had!

JohnL wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:58 pm

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:07 pm Apparently Jesus Torres learned the "value" of this "rare" trombone, even though he had to ask the world what it was that he had!

I don't think Jesus Torres is the person selling it on eBay. The Trombone Marketplace listing indicates that the instrument is located in Whittier, California (in what looks like someone's garage or maybe a storage locker), while the current seller on eBay is listed as being located in Erie, Colorado.

Drew, how old is that screenshot?

meine wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 1:54 pm Messaged him too. He‘s quite convinced to get the money he‘s asking

Bach5G wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:10 pm Buy low, sell high.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:10 pm Buy low, sell high.

JohnL wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:34 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:10 pm Buy low, sell high.

So we don't have the right to comment on the price the seller is asking?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:44 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:24 pm

I think the seller is free to conduct the sale as he wishes.