Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 06, 2017, 03:20PMIt may be happening, but it isn't the common standard yet.
What makes you say that?
I really dig this discussion, but if you look at the top 10 jazz radio play chart today, none of them are standards bands (ok, one is a Dizzy Gillespie reissue). I think it truly is a misnomer to pigeonhole jazz as being only about old tunes. Maybe that's what we play on restaurant gigs, or what you'd hear a local group playing at a community center gig, but to mistake that for the trajectory of a music that is very much alive is just not right.. The common man may think one thing, but the common man sometimes needs to do a good deal of work to find art that he is looking for. That doesn't mean it's not there.
Sorry to come down so hard on this type of thinking, it's just that the Internet makes so much music available without anyone having to do anything, and I know so many people who are making truly amazing, original jazz music. It's all a google search away.
I think you bring up a lot of great points in this thread, this being one of them:
QuoteWhat outcome are you playing for: wallpaper, polite golf clapping, hearty enthusiasm or spontaneous dancing....
Regardless of what some people are saying, I play weddings most weekends from May-November. So do many people I know. You know the music that gets people dancing? Michael Jackson. Al Green, Prince. Tower of Power. 85% is throwback to 40. Yes Bruno Mars and yes Cee-Lo, but you could argue that those artists are employing a 70's style themselves. I play in swing bands on weeknights, for young swing dancing people, and we're playing music from the 30s-60s. Enthusiasm and dancing. It's not as cut and dry as some might think.
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
-
ttf_ntap
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
-
ttf_Pre59
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
The town where I live is a staging post for bands on tour, so every weekend there's a gig on somewhere near. Unfortunately they struggle pull in the punters, and my guess is that it's because the musicians have all had the same education, listened to the same sources and play the same measured way. If jazz is a hybrid it need to find newer or older forgotten sources to work from.
I think that a competent trombonist could gain more from studying with a (jazz) pianist than a trombonist, and he wouldn't be in so much danger of recycling the idioms of the "Big Three"
I think that a competent trombonist could gain more from studying with a (jazz) pianist than a trombonist, and he wouldn't be in so much danger of recycling the idioms of the "Big Three"
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: ntap on Mar 06, 2017, 09:05PMWhat makes you say that?
I really dig this discussion, but if you look at the top 10 jazz radio play chart today, none of them are standards bands (ok, one is a Dizzy Gillespie reissue). I think it truly is a misnomer to pigeonhole jazz as being only about old tunes. Maybe that's what we play on restaurant gigs, or what you'd hear a local group playing at a community center gig, but to mistake that for the trajectory of a music that is very much alive is just not right.. The common man may think one thing, but the common man sometimes needs to do a good deal of work to find art that he is looking for. That doesn't mean it's not there.
Sorry to come down so hard on this type of thinking, it's just that the Internet makes so much music available without anyone having to do anything, and I know so many people who are making truly amazing, original jazz music. It's all a google search away.
I think you bring up a lot of great points in this thread, this being one of them:
QuoteWhat outcome are you playing for: wallpaper, polite golf clapping, hearty enthusiasm or spontaneous dancing....
[\quote]
Regardless of what some people are saying, I play weddings most weekends from May-November. So do many people I know. You know the music that gets people dancing? Michael Jackson. Al Green, Prince. Tower of Power. 85% is throwback too 40. Yes Bruno Mars and yes Cee-Lo, but you could argue that those artists are employing a 70's style themselves. I play in swing bands on weeknights, for young swing dancing people, and we're playing music from the 30s-60s. Enthusiasm and dancing. It's not as cut and dry as some might think.
I believe that is the basis for the impression I have. Take that away and I believe everything else you stated is what is happening.
Great points!
I'm surprised someone didn't nail me on when jazz was invented. Again, regardless of when it was actually invented, I think the two most popular notions are that it was invented in the pre-Civil War American South by slaves or sometime in the early 1900's. Why the early 1900's, because apparently that is when it "came on the scene" in after-hours and/or trendy night-spots haunted by young socialites. It was considered hot and decadent; not for "proper" people. But then again, so was the waltz when it first "came on the scene". Now those two art forms are considered classic.
But how many artists modify pop songs to 3/4 time and how many artists perform pop songs as jazz. No, it seems more likely that tunes performed in those art forms must be written as such and that is why there is such a big gulf between them - usually.
Quote from: Pre59 on Mar 07, 2017, 02:49AMThe town where I live is a staging post for bands on tour, so every weekend there's a gig on somewhere near. Unfortunately they struggle pull in the punters, and my guess is that it's because the musicians have all had the same education, listened to the same sources and play the same measured way. If jazz is a hybrid it need to find newer or older forgotten sources to work from.
I think that a competent trombonist could gain more from studying with a (jazz) pianist than a trombonist, and he wouldn't be in so much danger of recycling the idioms of the "Big Three"
BINGO!
AOBTW: most jazz numbers are WAY too long! lol The average American attention span is a commercial break or red light length.
As good as parts of this is Lester Bowie does the world really need almost 17 minutes of it?
...Geezer, The Great Pretender
I really dig this discussion, but if you look at the top 10 jazz radio play chart today, none of them are standards bands (ok, one is a Dizzy Gillespie reissue). I think it truly is a misnomer to pigeonhole jazz as being only about old tunes. Maybe that's what we play on restaurant gigs, or what you'd hear a local group playing at a community center gig, but to mistake that for the trajectory of a music that is very much alive is just not right.. The common man may think one thing, but the common man sometimes needs to do a good deal of work to find art that he is looking for. That doesn't mean it's not there.
Sorry to come down so hard on this type of thinking, it's just that the Internet makes so much music available without anyone having to do anything, and I know so many people who are making truly amazing, original jazz music. It's all a google search away.
I think you bring up a lot of great points in this thread, this being one of them:
QuoteWhat outcome are you playing for: wallpaper, polite golf clapping, hearty enthusiasm or spontaneous dancing....
[\quote]
Regardless of what some people are saying, I play weddings most weekends from May-November. So do many people I know. You know the music that gets people dancing? Michael Jackson. Al Green, Prince. Tower of Power. 85% is throwback too 40. Yes Bruno Mars and yes Cee-Lo, but you could argue that those artists are employing a 70's style themselves. I play in swing bands on weeknights, for young swing dancing people, and we're playing music from the 30s-60s. Enthusiasm and dancing. It's not as cut and dry as some might think.
I believe that is the basis for the impression I have. Take that away and I believe everything else you stated is what is happening.
Great points!
I'm surprised someone didn't nail me on when jazz was invented. Again, regardless of when it was actually invented, I think the two most popular notions are that it was invented in the pre-Civil War American South by slaves or sometime in the early 1900's. Why the early 1900's, because apparently that is when it "came on the scene" in after-hours and/or trendy night-spots haunted by young socialites. It was considered hot and decadent; not for "proper" people. But then again, so was the waltz when it first "came on the scene". Now those two art forms are considered classic.
But how many artists modify pop songs to 3/4 time and how many artists perform pop songs as jazz. No, it seems more likely that tunes performed in those art forms must be written as such and that is why there is such a big gulf between them - usually.
Quote from: Pre59 on Mar 07, 2017, 02:49AMThe town where I live is a staging post for bands on tour, so every weekend there's a gig on somewhere near. Unfortunately they struggle pull in the punters, and my guess is that it's because the musicians have all had the same education, listened to the same sources and play the same measured way. If jazz is a hybrid it need to find newer or older forgotten sources to work from.
I think that a competent trombonist could gain more from studying with a (jazz) pianist than a trombonist, and he wouldn't be in so much danger of recycling the idioms of the "Big Three"
BINGO!
AOBTW: most jazz numbers are WAY too long! lol The average American attention span is a commercial break or red light length.
As good as parts of this is Lester Bowie does the world really need almost 17 minutes of it?
...Geezer, The Great Pretender
-
ttf_Russ White
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: Graham Martin on Mar 06, 2017, 03:29PM
MacArthur Park by The Beatles
Not to be anal/ compulsive, but the Beatles never did MacArthur Park that I am aware of. It was written by Jimmy Webb (who wrote a TON of great songs), and I think the closest thing to a hit on it was done by Richard Harris of all people. Great tune, though, and there were a lot of good big band charts written on it.
MacArthur Park by The Beatles
Not to be anal/ compulsive, but the Beatles never did MacArthur Park that I am aware of. It was written by Jimmy Webb (who wrote a TON of great songs), and I think the closest thing to a hit on it was done by Richard Harris of all people. Great tune, though, and there were a lot of good big band charts written on it.
-
ttf_Russ White
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: Pre59 on Mar 07, 2017, 02:49AM
I think that a competent trombonist could gain more from studying with a (jazz) pianist than a trombonist, and he wouldn't be in so much danger of recycling the idioms of the "Big Three"
I would suggest pushing the envelope even further and studying rock guitarists. Many of the conceptual tools guitarists use (fretting, bends, etc.) are things one can immitate quite nicely on the trombone. I listen a LOT to Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Stevie Ray Vaughn, etc. Just throwing it out there. I think it also fits the basic idea of this thread of bringing more contemporary ideas into the nomenclature. Maybe we're being a little too hung up on calling things by labels?
I think that a competent trombonist could gain more from studying with a (jazz) pianist than a trombonist, and he wouldn't be in so much danger of recycling the idioms of the "Big Three"
I would suggest pushing the envelope even further and studying rock guitarists. Many of the conceptual tools guitarists use (fretting, bends, etc.) are things one can immitate quite nicely on the trombone. I listen a LOT to Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Stevie Ray Vaughn, etc. Just throwing it out there. I think it also fits the basic idea of this thread of bringing more contemporary ideas into the nomenclature. Maybe we're being a little too hung up on calling things by labels?
-
ttf_timothy42b
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Attention span?
I have friends who will listen to smooth jazz all day long.
They aren't interested in something that requires deep concentration or attention. But they like the consistent predictability and flawless execution of a good smooth jazz sax. (I'm speculating on their motives, but certain about their action.)
There's a book recommended by one of the oldtimers who used to be here that says music can be put on a continuum from shallow to profound, and listeners will be found on a continuum from background to engaged, and you want to match music to listener.
I think we need a popular smooth jazz trombonist.
I have friends who will listen to smooth jazz all day long.
They aren't interested in something that requires deep concentration or attention. But they like the consistent predictability and flawless execution of a good smooth jazz sax. (I'm speculating on their motives, but certain about their action.)
There's a book recommended by one of the oldtimers who used to be here that says music can be put on a continuum from shallow to profound, and listeners will be found on a continuum from background to engaged, and you want to match music to listener.
I think we need a popular smooth jazz trombonist.
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: Russ White on Mar 07, 2017, 05:22AMI would suggest pushing the envelope even further and studying rock guitarists. Many of the conceptual tools guitarists use (fretting, bends, etc.) are things one can immitate quite nicely on the trombone. I listen a LOT to Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Stevie Ray Vaughn, etc. Just throwing it out there. I think it also fits the basic idea of this thread of bringing more contemporary ideas into the nomenclature. Maybe we're being a little too hung up on calling things by labels?
I know a pro trombone player who does exactly that! And why not. Specific tools of the trade for a specific need. There's no right or wrong, only what works well in a given situation. Just because trombones are played in a traditional way in symphonic settings doesn't mean they should be locked into that in all circumstances.
...Geezer
I know a pro trombone player who does exactly that! And why not. Specific tools of the trade for a specific need. There's no right or wrong, only what works well in a given situation. Just because trombones are played in a traditional way in symphonic settings doesn't mean they should be locked into that in all circumstances.
...Geezer
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 07, 2017, 05:26AMAttention span?
I have friends who will listen to smooth jazz all day long.
They aren't interested in something that requires deep concentration or attention. But they like the consistent predictability and flawless execution of a good smooth jazz sax. (I'm speculating on their motives, but certain about their action.)
There's a book recommended by one of the oldtimers who used to be here that says music can be put on a continuum from shallow to profound, and listeners will be found on a continuum from background to engaged, and you want to match music to listener.
I think we need a popular smooth jazz trombonist.
Indeed, but I question "listening". It is true, deep listening for such an extended period of time or does it slowly become wallpaper? Mental fatigue is bound to set in.
...Geezer
I have friends who will listen to smooth jazz all day long.
They aren't interested in something that requires deep concentration or attention. But they like the consistent predictability and flawless execution of a good smooth jazz sax. (I'm speculating on their motives, but certain about their action.)
There's a book recommended by one of the oldtimers who used to be here that says music can be put on a continuum from shallow to profound, and listeners will be found on a continuum from background to engaged, and you want to match music to listener.
I think we need a popular smooth jazz trombonist.
Indeed, but I question "listening". It is true, deep listening for such an extended period of time or does it slowly become wallpaper? Mental fatigue is bound to set in.
...Geezer
-
ttf_Exzaclee
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 07, 2017, 05:30AMIndeed, but I question "listening". It is true, deep listening for such an extended period of time or does it slowly become wallpaper? Mental fatigue is bound to set in.
...Geezer
Good stuff is worth the time you invest in it.
Caravaggio ain't for everybody, and thank god he didn't dumb his art down so everybody would like it.
Fine art is for anyone who wants to invest in bettering theirself. It's not for 12 year olds with earbuds, a bag of funions and a bad attitude. Put the funions down, take out the earbuds, and still your mind. If you can't get to that point, come back when you can. Ellington (or Mozart, or Debussy, or Gil, or Coltrane) will still be here when you're ready.
It's not about the quantity of listeners, it's about the quality of music. Let Kenny G worry about album sales. The rest of us will worry about experiencing art on the highest level.
...Geezer
Good stuff is worth the time you invest in it.
Caravaggio ain't for everybody, and thank god he didn't dumb his art down so everybody would like it.
Fine art is for anyone who wants to invest in bettering theirself. It's not for 12 year olds with earbuds, a bag of funions and a bad attitude. Put the funions down, take out the earbuds, and still your mind. If you can't get to that point, come back when you can. Ellington (or Mozart, or Debussy, or Gil, or Coltrane) will still be here when you're ready.
It's not about the quantity of listeners, it's about the quality of music. Let Kenny G worry about album sales. The rest of us will worry about experiencing art on the highest level.
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: Exzaclee on Mar 07, 2017, 05:59AMGood stuff is worth the time you invest in it.
Caravaggio ain't for everybody, and thank god he didn't dumb his art down so everybody would like it.
Fine art is for anyone who wants to invest in bettering theirself. It's not for 12 year olds with earbuds, a bag of funions and a bad attitude. Put the funions down, take out the earbuds, and still your mind. If you can't get to that point, come back when you can. Ellington (or Mozart, or Debussy, or Gil, or Coltrane) will still be here when you're ready.
It's not about the quantity of listener, it's about the quality of music. Let Kenny G worry about album sales. The rest of us will worry about experience art on the highest level.
The more I listen, the more I listen. I believe it's an acquired skill.
OBTW, for students, there is an excellent MMO play-along series by Ira Nepus. I particularly like the "Motown Trombone" book. I think it's an excellent book to study from for timing and the feel of pop songs played in a jazz format. For those of us who don't have a clue how to play like this on-the-fly, it's a terrific little taste of what the big boys can do.
We pick on the youth a lot on this Forum. Maybe we shouldn't. Lots of us adults are numb-nuts as well.
...Geezer
Caravaggio ain't for everybody, and thank god he didn't dumb his art down so everybody would like it.
Fine art is for anyone who wants to invest in bettering theirself. It's not for 12 year olds with earbuds, a bag of funions and a bad attitude. Put the funions down, take out the earbuds, and still your mind. If you can't get to that point, come back when you can. Ellington (or Mozart, or Debussy, or Gil, or Coltrane) will still be here when you're ready.
It's not about the quantity of listener, it's about the quality of music. Let Kenny G worry about album sales. The rest of us will worry about experience art on the highest level.
The more I listen, the more I listen. I believe it's an acquired skill.
OBTW, for students, there is an excellent MMO play-along series by Ira Nepus. I particularly like the "Motown Trombone" book. I think it's an excellent book to study from for timing and the feel of pop songs played in a jazz format. For those of us who don't have a clue how to play like this on-the-fly, it's a terrific little taste of what the big boys can do.
We pick on the youth a lot on this Forum. Maybe we shouldn't. Lots of us adults are numb-nuts as well.
...Geezer
-
ttf_Pre59
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: Russ White on Mar 07, 2017, 05:22AMI would suggest pushing the envelope even further and studying rock guitarists. Many of the conceptual tools guitarists use (fretting, bends, etc.) are things one can immitate quite nicely on the trombone. I listen a LOT to Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Stevie Ray Vaughn, etc. Just throwing it out there. I think it also fits the basic idea of this thread of bringing more contemporary ideas into the nomenclature. Maybe we're being a little too hung up on calling things by labels?
I got a lot from having access to Guitar tuition DVD's by people like Joe Pass and Jimmy Bruno. Being a Bassist (both) and a one time cellist, the idea of the Tbn being laid out like a stringed instrument with the advantages of multiple fingering options doesn't seem unusual, hence some of my recent comments about laying a note position chart out as grid rather than a stave.
The Bass guitarist Jaco Pastorius is a perfect demonstration of how to create a whole new style by combining Be-bop and Funk, with an unimaginable about of swagger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSUk8bSVHYc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdqje73KQwg&list=PLyAjytBLG7Cdf7VUZCD7-rmq-WpvjIPIC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boNCY0Ai44M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEs5sKDXZuk
I got a lot from having access to Guitar tuition DVD's by people like Joe Pass and Jimmy Bruno. Being a Bassist (both) and a one time cellist, the idea of the Tbn being laid out like a stringed instrument with the advantages of multiple fingering options doesn't seem unusual, hence some of my recent comments about laying a note position chart out as grid rather than a stave.
The Bass guitarist Jaco Pastorius is a perfect demonstration of how to create a whole new style by combining Be-bop and Funk, with an unimaginable about of swagger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSUk8bSVHYc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdqje73KQwg&list=PLyAjytBLG7Cdf7VUZCD7-rmq-WpvjIPIC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boNCY0Ai44M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEs5sKDXZuk
-
ttf_Graham Martin
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: Russ White on Mar 07, 2017, 05:11AMNot to be anal/ compulsive, but the Beatles never did MacArthur Park that I am aware of. It was written by Jimmy Webb (who wrote a TON of great songs), and I think the closest thing to a hit on it was done by Richard Harris of all people. Great tune, though, and there were a lot of good big band charts written on it.
Yes, I bit of a mind flip on my part because I was really thinking about "Hey Jude", which is one of Ed Wilsons most popular arrangements and also done by Maynard Ferguson:
Ed Wilson Arrangement by GIJ Academy Big Band:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE2-FNXuoE8&index=10&list=PLgV4Hz_Ir0s7zkDzzA4ILFmYUe7wactj5
Maynard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wUeCX11no4
We used both the 'Hey Jude' and 'Macarthur Park' Ed Wilson arrangements as the big finale with bands in which I played. A lot of Aussie bands do the same tunes for a finale.
And it is very much a fact that the Daley Wilson big band got a lot of their ideas from the Maynard Ferguson band of the 70s.
Changed the post so as not to confuse others.
Yes, I bit of a mind flip on my part because I was really thinking about "Hey Jude", which is one of Ed Wilsons most popular arrangements and also done by Maynard Ferguson:
Ed Wilson Arrangement by GIJ Academy Big Band:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE2-FNXuoE8&index=10&list=PLgV4Hz_Ir0s7zkDzzA4ILFmYUe7wactj5
Maynard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wUeCX11no4
We used both the 'Hey Jude' and 'Macarthur Park' Ed Wilson arrangements as the big finale with bands in which I played. A lot of Aussie bands do the same tunes for a finale.
And it is very much a fact that the Daley Wilson big band got a lot of their ideas from the Maynard Ferguson band of the 70s.
Changed the post so as not to confuse others.
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: Graham Martin on Mar 07, 2017, 11:06AMYes, I bit of a mind flip on my part because I was really thinking about "Hey Jude", which is one of Ed Wilsons most popular arrangements and also done by Maynard Ferguson:
Ed Wilson Arrangement by GIJ Academy Big Band:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE2-FNXuoE8&index=10&list=PLgV4Hz_Ir0s7zkDzzA4ILFmYUe7wactj5
Maynard:
We used both the 'Hey Jude' and 'Macarthur Park' Ed Wilson arrangements as the big finale with bands in which I played. A lot of Aussie bands do the same tunes for a finale.
And it is very much a fact that the Daley Wilson big band got a lot of their ideas from the Maynard Ferguson band of the 70s.
Changed the post so as not to confuse others.
Horrid little video but one HECK of a good show! BRAVO!!!
...Geezer
Ed Wilson Arrangement by GIJ Academy Big Band:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE2-FNXuoE8&index=10&list=PLgV4Hz_Ir0s7zkDzzA4ILFmYUe7wactj5
Maynard:
We used both the 'Hey Jude' and 'Macarthur Park' Ed Wilson arrangements as the big finale with bands in which I played. A lot of Aussie bands do the same tunes for a finale.
And it is very much a fact that the Daley Wilson big band got a lot of their ideas from the Maynard Ferguson band of the 70s.
Changed the post so as not to confuse others.
Horrid little video but one HECK of a good show! BRAVO!!!
...Geezer
-
ttf_Graham Martin
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
I am surprised there have been no country music fans on this topic. So, just to appease them here is Kai dong his version of modern country:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NksYAdVR1CA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NksYAdVR1CA
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: Graham Martin on Mar 09, 2017, 12:55AMI am surprised there have been no country music fans on this topic. So, just to appease them here is Kai dong his version of modern country:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NksYAdVR1CA
Without sifting back through all of the posts to give the individual due credit, I think country music was mentioned once and maybe it was you. Anyway, a waltz - a country waltz no less! Gotta love that. And it's a great point - why not! Why not indeed.
I had a fantastic session with my instructor yesterday and as far as his personal performances are concerned, I got the distinct impression that NO kind of music was off the table - if the audience wanted to hear it - and he has the vocabulary to pull it off.
I have to find a suitable candidate from the country music genre to butcher! Maybe something from Hank Williams, since I just watched a movie about his life & times.
As far as Kai playing country music, It's Alright With Me.
...Geezer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NksYAdVR1CA
Without sifting back through all of the posts to give the individual due credit, I think country music was mentioned once and maybe it was you. Anyway, a waltz - a country waltz no less! Gotta love that. And it's a great point - why not! Why not indeed.
I had a fantastic session with my instructor yesterday and as far as his personal performances are concerned, I got the distinct impression that NO kind of music was off the table - if the audience wanted to hear it - and he has the vocabulary to pull it off.
I have to find a suitable candidate from the country music genre to butcher! Maybe something from Hank Williams, since I just watched a movie about his life & times.
As far as Kai playing country music, It's Alright With Me.
...Geezer
-
ttf_harrison.t.reed
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
I can't believe people are bagging on Kenny G!
https://youtube.com/v/7P6QYWqRxww
He closes stores in China!
https://youtube.com/v/7P6QYWqRxww
He closes stores in China!
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
I just stabbed my eardrums with a mouthpiece stem!
...Geezer
...Geezer
-
ttf_ddickerson
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Country Western? Study Bob Wills Swing Music.
-
ttf_Exzaclee
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Dave Douglas's Brass Ecstacy: Spirit Moves is a great small brass band album. A few years ago I was lucky enough to get to perform this music (DD was the director) in Banff and Dave gave us all copies of the album. It stayed in the CD player for a while (up until I got an album by Havana D'Primera, Pasaporte which stayed in the CD player up until it broke.)
He does my favorite Hank Williams song on this album, "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry."
Quote from: ddickerson on Mar 09, 2017, 06:52AMCountry Western? Study Bob Wills Swing Music.
This stuff is pretty hip, they put this stuff in our baby bottles around here. There were so many guys with a strong command of the bebop language that toured in those bands. Benny Garcia, one of Bob Wills' guitarists, was a local legend from OKC. So many of us as kids went to jam sessions Benny fronted back in the day. He knew every jazz standard and bebop head you could think of and he was one of the hardest swinging guitarists I've ever heard. Listening to him turn a complex set of changes into the most beautiful lines you've ever heard was a great learning experience. He passed onto the other side a few years ago, but his spirit lives on in so many young musicians that came out of that scene. There's a little bit of Benny everywhere now.
On another note, if you're looking for "pop" tunes arranged in the style of___________, there is a sleeper album out there that I don't see mentioned much. Unity: The Latin Tribute to Michael Jackson was arranged and produced by Tony Succar. The arrangements are a great departure from the original superb work done by Quincy Jones. I use this album with my students to introduce them to the forms and concepts found in "salsa" music. The "Smooth Criminal" arrangement is one I use a bunch. The playing on it is superb, and for the listener who finds the spanish language a little intimidating, it's a way to introduce gringos to salsa with familiar songs and a familiar language.
He does my favorite Hank Williams song on this album, "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry."
Quote from: ddickerson on Mar 09, 2017, 06:52AMCountry Western? Study Bob Wills Swing Music.
This stuff is pretty hip, they put this stuff in our baby bottles around here. There were so many guys with a strong command of the bebop language that toured in those bands. Benny Garcia, one of Bob Wills' guitarists, was a local legend from OKC. So many of us as kids went to jam sessions Benny fronted back in the day. He knew every jazz standard and bebop head you could think of and he was one of the hardest swinging guitarists I've ever heard. Listening to him turn a complex set of changes into the most beautiful lines you've ever heard was a great learning experience. He passed onto the other side a few years ago, but his spirit lives on in so many young musicians that came out of that scene. There's a little bit of Benny everywhere now.
On another note, if you're looking for "pop" tunes arranged in the style of___________, there is a sleeper album out there that I don't see mentioned much. Unity: The Latin Tribute to Michael Jackson was arranged and produced by Tony Succar. The arrangements are a great departure from the original superb work done by Quincy Jones. I use this album with my students to introduce them to the forms and concepts found in "salsa" music. The "Smooth Criminal" arrangement is one I use a bunch. The playing on it is superb, and for the listener who finds the spanish language a little intimidating, it's a way to introduce gringos to salsa with familiar songs and a familiar language.
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: ddickerson on Mar 09, 2017, 06:52AMCountry Western? Study Bob Wills Swing Music.
I'm listening to some of his work right now on YouTube. To our ears today, it might sound awfully corny. But I can also hear some nice melody lines. What the heck happened to "country" music of today that the vocals got so mutated? Sounds to me that "back in the day", country music was more about the instrumental make-up of the group than it was the sound of the lead vocalist, although I can hear a Southern twang - but not near as perverted as it has become today to where I have no idea what area of the South would sound like they do. The subject matter of the lyrics seems to have held constant through the decades, though.
Anyway, yeah - why not? I believe it would have to come from some Billboard Top 100 all-time country hits though for a general audience anywhere to recognize the tune - like "Ghost Riders In The Sky". I think that one could be made into a great jazz chart. Probably some of Johnny Cash as well as Merle Haggard. "Oakie From Muskogie" in a jazz format. lol Why not...
Oops. I just used the term "jazz" a few times. I think Zack would prefer I use the term " ". lol If I remember correctly, Zach doesn't like the term "Dixieland" either. I wonder if Zach is in the room. And I wonder why we aren't "allowed" to use those terms. No I don't. 
...Geezer
I'm listening to some of his work right now on YouTube. To our ears today, it might sound awfully corny. But I can also hear some nice melody lines. What the heck happened to "country" music of today that the vocals got so mutated? Sounds to me that "back in the day", country music was more about the instrumental make-up of the group than it was the sound of the lead vocalist, although I can hear a Southern twang - but not near as perverted as it has become today to where I have no idea what area of the South would sound like they do. The subject matter of the lyrics seems to have held constant through the decades, though.
Anyway, yeah - why not? I believe it would have to come from some Billboard Top 100 all-time country hits though for a general audience anywhere to recognize the tune - like "Ghost Riders In The Sky". I think that one could be made into a great jazz chart. Probably some of Johnny Cash as well as Merle Haggard. "Oakie From Muskogie" in a jazz format. lol Why not...
Oops. I just used the term "jazz" a few times. I think Zack would prefer I use the term " ". lol If I remember correctly, Zach doesn't like the term "Dixieland" either. I wonder if Zach is in the room.
And I wonder why we aren't "allowed" to use those terms. No I don't. ...Geezer
-
ttf_ddickerson
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxVM9_ANbjg
Bob Wills 'Who walks in when I walk out"
Smoking hot at about a tempo of 250 to 254 or so.
Trombone included too!
Here is a Trad Version by Bob Schulz's group:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw6SnUX-u5U
Bob Wills 'Who walks in when I walk out"
Smoking hot at about a tempo of 250 to 254 or so.
Trombone included too!
Here is a Trad Version by Bob Schulz's group:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw6SnUX-u5U
-
ttf_Exzaclee
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 09, 2017, 01:15PM To our ears today, it might sound awfully corny. But I can also hear some nice melody lines. What the heck happened to "country" music of today that the vocals got so mutated? Sounds to me that "back in the day", country music was more about the instrumental make-up of the group than it was the sound of the lead vocalist, although I can hear a Southern twang - but not near as perverted as it has become today to where I have no idea what area of the South would sound like they do. The subject matter of the lyrics seems to have held constant through the decades, though.
Nothing wrong with corn. Unless it's monsanto - in which case you get sued if you grow it without a contract (lame) and worst of all it has no freaking taste (lameX2). I remember as kids that even the corn that came in the can had a great taste to it, and the stuff on the stalk was as strong and sweet as nothing most of today's youth will ever experience. GMOs, stripped soils, and industrial growing have all but killed the produce we had as kids. The "organic" stuff, when it ain't just some BS with "organic" slapped on it, has a taste. You smell it and it's like perfume.
The real deal is always a damn sight better than the fake stuff.
Now-a-days, county is trying so hard to sound like the pop music on the radio. Singers that ain't from the south are injecting "twang" from a vocal coach. Failed pop songwriters are sending their stuff to nashville where they take a pop track and sing it with a little twang and call it country. Bro-country, guns and jesus, creepy objectification of girls, big $50,000 trucks that no farmer or country boy of my generation could've ever afforded, pressed jeans with nary a grass stain and pressed mo-betta shirts, ridiculous hats, chaw, show dogs instead of real bird dogs, and for the love of God, autotune????? - the country music you hear today for the most part is a giant wal-mart/pickup truck/guns/republican party commercial. It lost it's heart and it's edge when it became more about selling a "lifestyle" than it did about telling a story. The political landscape of country music used to actually be pretty diverse - some of the most liberal cats I know were some old country musicians (and they had some stories.) Now it's largely about a target audience. Not all of it, mind you - like any genre, there are some gems, and the best artists don't play the "target audience" game. It's just that what you hear dominating the airwaves is for the most part aimed at the lowest common denominator, like pretty much all the "in" stuff. There are some great current artists doing good work - Brad Paisley and Chris Stapleton will change a lot of people's minds about country. If bluegrass is your thing Allison Krauss and
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 09, 2017, 01:15PMAnyway, yeah - why not? I believe it would have to come from some Billboard Top 100 all-time country hits though for a general audience anywhere to recognize the tune - like "Ghost Riders In The Sky". I think that one could be made into a great jazz chart. Probably some of Johnny Cash as well as Merle Haggard. "Oakie From Muskogie" in a jazz format. lol Why not...
It's "Okie" and "Muskogee" - and if you're from California, you can't say "Okie". If you're from Cali and you call me an Okie, well, dem's fightin' words. And in this part of the country, most of us grew up on the old country standards. Johnny Cash, Hank Williams (Jr. and Sr.), Merle Haggard, Willie Nelson (one of my grandmother's favorites, I get teary when "blue eyes cryin' in the rain comes on), Reba McEntire, Patsy Cline, Jimmy Rogers, Loretta Lynn, George Strait, Charley Pride, heck even Garth Brooks is a classic now - as poppy as his stuff seemed, much of it has held up well. One could put together about 3 sets worth of music representing those artists and do well just about anywhere around here. I used to do an arrangement of Willie's "My Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys" to close sets. There's so much good material in there.
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 09, 2017, 01:15PMOops. I just used the term "jazz" a few times. I think Zack would prefer I use the term " ". lol If I remember correctly, Zach doesn't like the term "Dixieland" either. I wonder if Zach is in the room. And I wonder why we aren't "allowed" to use those terms. No I don't.
The only problem with "Jazz" is that it's just a horrible identifier - it applies to such a wide range of music (and in some cases not correctly in my opinion.) Despite it's questionable origins that's a term that isn't overtly objectionable.
"Dixieland" has three huge strikes against it: 1) the term "Dixie" is closely associated with the south at a time when the oppression of african americans was a normal way of life, and is also a term used specifically to describe the south when slavery was legal. 2) It implies a southern origin for the music and attempts to take the credit from the african americans who invented to style and by association give it to the white bands who "stole" it. 3) The term "New Orleans" music is both more accurate and less offensive.
Nothing wrong with corn. Unless it's monsanto - in which case you get sued if you grow it without a contract (lame) and worst of all it has no freaking taste (lameX2). I remember as kids that even the corn that came in the can had a great taste to it, and the stuff on the stalk was as strong and sweet as nothing most of today's youth will ever experience. GMOs, stripped soils, and industrial growing have all but killed the produce we had as kids. The "organic" stuff, when it ain't just some BS with "organic" slapped on it, has a taste. You smell it and it's like perfume.
The real deal is always a damn sight better than the fake stuff.
Now-a-days, county is trying so hard to sound like the pop music on the radio. Singers that ain't from the south are injecting "twang" from a vocal coach. Failed pop songwriters are sending their stuff to nashville where they take a pop track and sing it with a little twang and call it country. Bro-country, guns and jesus, creepy objectification of girls, big $50,000 trucks that no farmer or country boy of my generation could've ever afforded, pressed jeans with nary a grass stain and pressed mo-betta shirts, ridiculous hats, chaw, show dogs instead of real bird dogs, and for the love of God, autotune????? - the country music you hear today for the most part is a giant wal-mart/pickup truck/guns/republican party commercial. It lost it's heart and it's edge when it became more about selling a "lifestyle" than it did about telling a story. The political landscape of country music used to actually be pretty diverse - some of the most liberal cats I know were some old country musicians (and they had some stories.) Now it's largely about a target audience. Not all of it, mind you - like any genre, there are some gems, and the best artists don't play the "target audience" game. It's just that what you hear dominating the airwaves is for the most part aimed at the lowest common denominator, like pretty much all the "in" stuff. There are some great current artists doing good work - Brad Paisley and Chris Stapleton will change a lot of people's minds about country. If bluegrass is your thing Allison Krauss and
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 09, 2017, 01:15PMAnyway, yeah - why not? I believe it would have to come from some Billboard Top 100 all-time country hits though for a general audience anywhere to recognize the tune - like "Ghost Riders In The Sky". I think that one could be made into a great jazz chart. Probably some of Johnny Cash as well as Merle Haggard. "Oakie From Muskogie" in a jazz format. lol Why not...
It's "Okie" and "Muskogee" - and if you're from California, you can't say "Okie". If you're from Cali and you call me an Okie, well, dem's fightin' words. And in this part of the country, most of us grew up on the old country standards. Johnny Cash, Hank Williams (Jr. and Sr.), Merle Haggard, Willie Nelson (one of my grandmother's favorites, I get teary when "blue eyes cryin' in the rain comes on), Reba McEntire, Patsy Cline, Jimmy Rogers, Loretta Lynn, George Strait, Charley Pride, heck even Garth Brooks is a classic now - as poppy as his stuff seemed, much of it has held up well. One could put together about 3 sets worth of music representing those artists and do well just about anywhere around here. I used to do an arrangement of Willie's "My Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys" to close sets. There's so much good material in there.
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 09, 2017, 01:15PMOops. I just used the term "jazz" a few times. I think Zack would prefer I use the term " ". lol If I remember correctly, Zach doesn't like the term "Dixieland" either. I wonder if Zach is in the room.
And I wonder why we aren't "allowed" to use those terms. No I don't. The only problem with "Jazz" is that it's just a horrible identifier - it applies to such a wide range of music (and in some cases not correctly in my opinion.) Despite it's questionable origins that's a term that isn't overtly objectionable.
"Dixieland" has three huge strikes against it: 1) the term "Dixie" is closely associated with the south at a time when the oppression of african americans was a normal way of life, and is also a term used specifically to describe the south when slavery was legal. 2) It implies a southern origin for the music and attempts to take the credit from the african americans who invented to style and by association give it to the white bands who "stole" it. 3) The term "New Orleans" music is both more accurate and less offensive.
-
ttf_Piano man
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: ddickerson on Mar 09, 2017, 01:32PMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxVM9_ANbjg
Bob Wills 'Who walks in when I walk out"
Smoking hot at about a tempo of 250 to 254 or so.
Trombone included too!
There should be a 'like' button on the forum.
Bob Wills 'Who walks in when I walk out"
Smoking hot at about a tempo of 250 to 254 or so.
Trombone included too!
There should be a 'like' button on the forum.
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
I like to listen to good Dixieland. I would like to find some all-time great pop tunes to play in a Dixieland format, but I've given up trying to learn how to play in that style. There simply are NO good learning books currently on the market. This is the place where someone will jump up and exclaim how good the Hal Leonard and/or Jamey Aebersold books are. Been there; tried that. They were terrible for me! I guess it's just too minor of a niche for them to put much effort into.
...Geezer
...Geezer
-
ttf_Piano man
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 09, 2017, 08:40PMI like to listen to good Dixieland. I would like to find some all-time great pop tunes to play in a Dixieland format, but I've given up trying to learn how to play in that style. There simply are NO good learning books currently on the market. This is the place where someone will jump up and exclaim how good the Hal Leonard and/or Jamey Aebersold books are. Been there; tried that. They were terrible for me! I guess it's just too minor of a niche for them to put much effort into.
...Geezer
Just listen and copy. What better book than that?
...Geezer
Just listen and copy. What better book than that?
-
ttf_BillO
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
I've been toying with the idea of using John Lennon's 'Imagine' as the basis of either a ballad or a jazz piece for Big Band. I think it can work either way.
Dixie land ... not so much, but hey ... fruit form a different mind? Why not?
Dixie land ... not so much, but hey ... fruit form a different mind? Why not?
-
ttf_Graham Martin
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 09, 2017, 08:40PMI like to listen to good Dixieland. I would like to find some all-time great pop tunes to play in a Dixieland format, but I've given up trying to learn how to play in that style. There simply are NO good learning books currently on the market. This is the place where someone will jump up and exclaim how good the Hal Leonard and/or Jamey Aebersold books are. Been there; tried that. They were terrible for me! I guess it's just too minor of a niche for them to put much effort into.
...Geezer
mmmmm......, interesting. I thought the same thing quite a few years back and set about writing a tutor on how to play the style. I actually distributed it to a few youngsters (then) on this forum and even had it posted on a website at one time. But then I decided it was lacking in some areas and started a rewrite that was never completed.
But I'll have a look and see if there is anything there that I can rescue for you.
I also have never been happy with the term 'Dixieland', for somewhat the same reasons as explained by Zac. However, the book is called "Dixieland to Denmark and onwards", "A guide to playing 'hot' jazz (for frontline instruments)" In the Prelude to the book, I say:
"This book is about playing `hot´ jazz, by which I mean the genres that are variously described as Traditional Jazz, Dixieland, New Orleans Jazz, Small-band Swing and Mainstream (British definition). If you want to play Bebop, Cool Jazz or Free Jazz, this is probably not your tutor although the basic theory is more-or-less the same. That being said, there have been advances in jazz teaching that are mainly associated with Modern Jazz (Bebop and onwards) playing and improvising, and I make no excuses for referencing some practice methods and techniques used by jazz educators teaching those styles."
...Geezer
mmmmm......, interesting. I thought the same thing quite a few years back and set about writing a tutor on how to play the style. I actually distributed it to a few youngsters (then) on this forum and even had it posted on a website at one time. But then I decided it was lacking in some areas and started a rewrite that was never completed.
But I'll have a look and see if there is anything there that I can rescue for you.I also have never been happy with the term 'Dixieland', for somewhat the same reasons as explained by Zac. However, the book is called "Dixieland to Denmark and onwards", "A guide to playing 'hot' jazz (for frontline instruments)" In the Prelude to the book, I say:
"This book is about playing `hot´ jazz, by which I mean the genres that are variously described as Traditional Jazz, Dixieland, New Orleans Jazz, Small-band Swing and Mainstream (British definition). If you want to play Bebop, Cool Jazz or Free Jazz, this is probably not your tutor although the basic theory is more-or-less the same. That being said, there have been advances in jazz teaching that are mainly associated with Modern Jazz (Bebop and onwards) playing and improvising, and I make no excuses for referencing some practice methods and techniques used by jazz educators teaching those styles."
-
ttf_BillO
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: Exzaclee on Mar 09, 2017, 05:19PMNothing wrong with corn. Unless it's monsanto - in which case you get sued if you grow it without a contract (lame)
Even if it gets blown unexpectedly into your field by a wind storm, post harvest. But I digress.
We all like to hear jazz on melodies we are familiar with. Free-form jazz has a loyal, but at least around these parts, limited following. It will never be mainstream.
Geezer has a point. We need to move forward. Jazz, in all it's forms is still valid. My 26 year old son loves jazz, especially swing. These are the people we need to cultivate. Since jazz naturally co-opts other music by it's very nature, this should not be so difficult. There is lots of suitable music out there to co-opt. It just needs Jazz musicians to stand up and move the genre forward.
Even if it gets blown unexpectedly into your field by a wind storm, post harvest. But I digress.
We all like to hear jazz on melodies we are familiar with. Free-form jazz has a loyal, but at least around these parts, limited following. It will never be mainstream.
Geezer has a point. We need to move forward. Jazz, in all it's forms is still valid. My 26 year old son loves jazz, especially swing. These are the people we need to cultivate. Since jazz naturally co-opts other music by it's very nature, this should not be so difficult. There is lots of suitable music out there to co-opt. It just needs Jazz musicians to stand up and move the genre forward.
-
ttf_Graham Martin
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: BillO on Mar 09, 2017, 10:19PMI've been toying with the idea of using John Lennon's 'Imagine' as the basis of either a ballad or a jazz piece for Big Band. I think it can work either way.
Dixie land ... not so much, but hey ... fruit form a different mind? Why not?
One of my favourite tunes of all time and I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed in the lyric. There are several big band arrangements of the tune but that is not to say there is no room for another. Good luck with it!
Here is one of those arrangements by John Berry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53Fd8ddaChY
I find that many Beatles tunes adapt very well to being played by a big and small jazz bands. I mentioned 'Hey Jude' earlier and I did an arrangement for my own band of 'Here There and Everywhere', although I will admit it was a bit of a steal from the James Morrison version.
Dixie land ... not so much, but hey ... fruit form a different mind? Why not?
One of my favourite tunes of all time and I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed in the lyric. There are several big band arrangements of the tune but that is not to say there is no room for another. Good luck with it!
Here is one of those arrangements by John Berry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53Fd8ddaChY
I find that many Beatles tunes adapt very well to being played by a big and small jazz bands. I mentioned 'Hey Jude' earlier and I did an arrangement for my own band of 'Here There and Everywhere', although I will admit it was a bit of a steal from the James Morrison version.
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
I believe the point of transcribing a Dixieland piece is valid. That is what we are urged to do with jazz licks. Some also state that to learn how to play jazz, it is helpful to just take a chord progression and learn how to improv through it. That may be fine for an art form like jazz where it's a kinda free-form thing. But my understanding of Dixieland is that it is more structured, at least the trombone part is.
Seeing a book on how to learn Dixieland, where the chords are laid out over measures with nothing but slashes through them teaches me nothing. Give me a book with ALL the trombone notes and all of the musical notation laid down and I'll memorize all of the songs. Then hopefully I will have a chance to assimilate the pattern and repeat it in a song of my own choosing. It would be a process very similar to transcribing a jazz solo and absorbing it to the point of being able to use it as a guide in another song, minus the tedium of transcribing.
I know. I know. Transcribing is good for us and I've done some. But I'm not a music major with his whole music life ahead of him. At this point in my life I want shortcuts; the easy way, if you will. Other than what notes are in basic chords, I'm not interested in learning much about music theory. If anything, I'm learning how to "play by ear". Every educator among you thinks in terms of educating youth and that's fantastic. But also learn to think in terms of senior adult education. It's different. I don't want to know the "why", I want to cut straight to the "how" in a more "down and dirty" or "meatball" way. Flawed though that approach may be, it will get me - I say me - to a usable point quicker.
With respect, perhaps a discussion on the use or disuse of the commonly-used term "Dixieland" should best be served on the "Purely Politics" board or it's like.
...Geezer
Seeing a book on how to learn Dixieland, where the chords are laid out over measures with nothing but slashes through them teaches me nothing. Give me a book with ALL the trombone notes and all of the musical notation laid down and I'll memorize all of the songs. Then hopefully I will have a chance to assimilate the pattern and repeat it in a song of my own choosing. It would be a process very similar to transcribing a jazz solo and absorbing it to the point of being able to use it as a guide in another song, minus the tedium of transcribing.
I know. I know. Transcribing is good for us and I've done some. But I'm not a music major with his whole music life ahead of him. At this point in my life I want shortcuts; the easy way, if you will. Other than what notes are in basic chords, I'm not interested in learning much about music theory. If anything, I'm learning how to "play by ear". Every educator among you thinks in terms of educating youth and that's fantastic. But also learn to think in terms of senior adult education. It's different. I don't want to know the "why", I want to cut straight to the "how" in a more "down and dirty" or "meatball" way. Flawed though that approach may be, it will get me - I say me - to a usable point quicker.
With respect, perhaps a discussion on the use or disuse of the commonly-used term "Dixieland" should best be served on the "Purely Politics" board or it's like.
...Geezer
-
ttf_Russ White
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
" 2) It implies a southern origin for the music and attempts to take the credit from the african americans who invented to style and by association give it to the white bands who "stole" it."
"the genres that are variously described as Traditional Jazz, Dixieland, New Orleans Jazz, Small-band Swing and Mainstream (British definition)."
Not to hi-jack the thread, and I am sure there is another devoted to the topic somewhere on the forum, but my belief is that the birth of "Jazz" in America had both a mother and a father. I won't speculate on which played which role, but I believe the Klezmer tradition coming out of Eastern Europe played as much a part in the birth of "Jazz" as did the music of black suppression in the south. I would suggest that Be-Bop is where the two traditions finally met and melded completely, but there is certainly as rich a history of great improvisational soloists coming out of the klezmer tradition in the late 19th and early part of the 20th centuries as there is of those coming out of the "traditional or Dixieland" era in the south.
Back to the suject at hand, I have mentioned Sting and Prince as more modern, up-to-date examples of folks whose music will, with the passage of time, someday be the "same old stuff" everybody plays. Toto, Phil Collins, and Peter Gabriel come to mind as others from the end opf the 20th century who will rise to that level over time.
"the genres that are variously described as Traditional Jazz, Dixieland, New Orleans Jazz, Small-band Swing and Mainstream (British definition)."
Not to hi-jack the thread, and I am sure there is another devoted to the topic somewhere on the forum, but my belief is that the birth of "Jazz" in America had both a mother and a father. I won't speculate on which played which role, but I believe the Klezmer tradition coming out of Eastern Europe played as much a part in the birth of "Jazz" as did the music of black suppression in the south. I would suggest that Be-Bop is where the two traditions finally met and melded completely, but there is certainly as rich a history of great improvisational soloists coming out of the klezmer tradition in the late 19th and early part of the 20th centuries as there is of those coming out of the "traditional or Dixieland" era in the south.
Back to the suject at hand, I have mentioned Sting and Prince as more modern, up-to-date examples of folks whose music will, with the passage of time, someday be the "same old stuff" everybody plays. Toto, Phil Collins, and Peter Gabriel come to mind as others from the end opf the 20th century who will rise to that level over time.
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: Russ White on Mar 10, 2017, 05:23AM
...
Back to the suject at hand, I have mentioned Sting and Prince as more modern, up-to-date examples of folks whose music will, with the passage of time, someday be the "same old stuff" everybody plays. Toto, Phil Collins, and Peter Gabriel come to mind as others from the end opf the 20th century who will rise to that level over time.
Outside of maybe "Little Red Corvette" and "Purple Rain", I never really "got" Prince. But those two songs alone make him more than a "one-hit wonder" to me. I also never "got" The Grateful Dead. Are there songs from their rep that would work in a jazz format?
...Geezer
...
Back to the suject at hand, I have mentioned Sting and Prince as more modern, up-to-date examples of folks whose music will, with the passage of time, someday be the "same old stuff" everybody plays. Toto, Phil Collins, and Peter Gabriel come to mind as others from the end opf the 20th century who will rise to that level over time.
Outside of maybe "Little Red Corvette" and "Purple Rain", I never really "got" Prince. But those two songs alone make him more than a "one-hit wonder" to me. I also never "got" The Grateful Dead. Are there songs from their rep that would work in a jazz format?
...Geezer
-
ttf_uncle duke
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 10, 2017, 05:01AM Some also state that to learn how to play jazz, it is helpful to just take a chord progression and learn how to improv through it.
Seeing a book on how to learn Dixieland, where the chords are laid out over measures with nothing but slashes through them teaches me nothing. Give me a book with ALL the trombone notes and all of the musical notation.
Geezer, you sure are missing out on how much more a trombone and player are capable of once measures with just slashes are learned or how to use them. Sure it's easier with all the notes written for you. We all learned that way, at least the ones who played in school. After you start dinking around with the slashes trying to solo with no notes to read what you think sounds corny at first may very well sound great to others.
Any chance of you listing the chord changes to some of your tunes that you've been working on? Then you could possibly get free lessons here on what to do with them in regards to making your own solos.
Seeing a book on how to learn Dixieland, where the chords are laid out over measures with nothing but slashes through them teaches me nothing. Give me a book with ALL the trombone notes and all of the musical notation.
Geezer, you sure are missing out on how much more a trombone and player are capable of once measures with just slashes are learned or how to use them. Sure it's easier with all the notes written for you. We all learned that way, at least the ones who played in school. After you start dinking around with the slashes trying to solo with no notes to read what you think sounds corny at first may very well sound great to others.
Any chance of you listing the chord changes to some of your tunes that you've been working on? Then you could possibly get free lessons here on what to do with them in regards to making your own solos.
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Thank you sir!
Honestly, I would rather that part of it stay between me and my instructor. It's that "too many hands in the soup" thing and I prefer to go exclusively in the direction in which he is teaching me. It and more advanced written-out play-alongs are a large part of my sessions with him. I want to preserve a continuity with his instruction and not introduce other directions at this point, however valid they may be.
But as far as Dixieland is concerned, yes - I would like to see it all written out, even if it's not "good for me", as it were.
Thanks again!
...Geezer
Honestly, I would rather that part of it stay between me and my instructor. It's that "too many hands in the soup" thing and I prefer to go exclusively in the direction in which he is teaching me. It and more advanced written-out play-alongs are a large part of my sessions with him. I want to preserve a continuity with his instruction and not introduce other directions at this point, however valid they may be.
But as far as Dixieland is concerned, yes - I would like to see it all written out, even if it's not "good for me", as it were.
Thanks again!
...Geezer
-
ttf_Exzaclee
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
That's not the tradition in traditional jazz, Geezer.
If you want to perform that music, you should do it the way they did it.
If you want to perform that music, you should do it the way they did it.
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: Exzaclee on Mar 10, 2017, 06:55AMThat's not the tradition in traditional jazz, Geezer.
If you want to perform that music, you should do it the way they did it.
I respect your opinion. I hope you know that.
...Geezer
If you want to perform that music, you should do it the way they did it.
I respect your opinion. I hope you know that.
...Geezer
-
ttf_ddickerson
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
One of the band leaders (trad jazz) that I play with explains that Trad Jazz is soul music. You listen to the original artists, and they played from their heart. Each instrument of the front line plays from the heart of the player. However, there are 'rules' or 'roles' that each instrument plays during the ensemble portion, or head portion.
Out of the three roles, the trombone has the easiest role to play, but one of the most important, because the trombone is the traffic cop that helps the other two instruments always know where the next section is heading.
In that light Geezer, to start out with, just play the root note of each chord, and do the walking up to the next chord. After a while, you will find more creative ways to achieve the same effect. You hear a lot of trombonists use glisses into the next chord, and a lot of trad fans love it when the trombone plays effective glisses.
Bottomline, listen, listen, listen. Don't listen for your own pleasure though. I used to do that. I would crank it up and listen and just be thoroughly entertained, but I wasn't paying attention to what the trombone player was doing, to see how he was performing his role in the front line, so all those years of listening, I really didn't learn as much as I could have.
When your chops are tired, listen. Listen with purpose, just like you practice with purpose.
Out of the three roles, the trombone has the easiest role to play, but one of the most important, because the trombone is the traffic cop that helps the other two instruments always know where the next section is heading.
In that light Geezer, to start out with, just play the root note of each chord, and do the walking up to the next chord. After a while, you will find more creative ways to achieve the same effect. You hear a lot of trombonists use glisses into the next chord, and a lot of trad fans love it when the trombone plays effective glisses.
Bottomline, listen, listen, listen. Don't listen for your own pleasure though. I used to do that. I would crank it up and listen and just be thoroughly entertained, but I wasn't paying attention to what the trombone player was doing, to see how he was performing his role in the front line, so all those years of listening, I really didn't learn as much as I could have.
When your chops are tired, listen. Listen with purpose, just like you practice with purpose.
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: ddickerson on Mar 10, 2017, 07:59AMOne of the band leaders (trad jazz) that I play with explains that Trad Jazz is soul music. You listen to the original artists, and they played from their heart. Each instrument of the front line plays from the heart of the player. However, there are 'rules' or 'roles' that each instrument plays during the ensemble portion, or head portion.
Out of the three roles, the trombone has the easiest role to play, but one of the most important, because the trombone is the traffic cop that helps the other two instruments always know where the next section is heading.
In that light Geezer, to start out with, just play the root note of each chord, and do the walking up to the next chord. After a while, you will find more creative ways to achieve the same effect. You hear a lot of trombonists use glisses into the next chord, and a lot of trad fans love it when the trombone plays effective glisses.
Bottomline, listen, listen, listen. Don't listen for your own pleasure though. I used to do that. I would crank it up and listen and just be thoroughly entertained, but I wasn't paying attention to what the trombone player was doing, to see how he was performing his role in the front line, so all those years of listening, I really didn't learn as much as I could have.
When your chops are tired, listen. Listen with purpose, just like you practice with purpose.
Okay. That's actually the best guidance I've seen yet on this particular art form. So I can go through a typical "how to" book and mark in the root tones for all the listed chords, even though I guess the root tones are pretty much self-evident. It will still give me a written place in which to "walk".
I wonder if there any merit in playing a "walking" trombone part as fond in "trad jazz" as a bass line for a pop "_____" arrangement.
Thanks!
...Geezer
Out of the three roles, the trombone has the easiest role to play, but one of the most important, because the trombone is the traffic cop that helps the other two instruments always know where the next section is heading.
In that light Geezer, to start out with, just play the root note of each chord, and do the walking up to the next chord. After a while, you will find more creative ways to achieve the same effect. You hear a lot of trombonists use glisses into the next chord, and a lot of trad fans love it when the trombone plays effective glisses.
Bottomline, listen, listen, listen. Don't listen for your own pleasure though. I used to do that. I would crank it up and listen and just be thoroughly entertained, but I wasn't paying attention to what the trombone player was doing, to see how he was performing his role in the front line, so all those years of listening, I really didn't learn as much as I could have.
When your chops are tired, listen. Listen with purpose, just like you practice with purpose.
Okay. That's actually the best guidance I've seen yet on this particular art form. So I can go through a typical "how to" book and mark in the root tones for all the listed chords, even though I guess the root tones are pretty much self-evident. It will still give me a written place in which to "walk".
I wonder if there any merit in playing a "walking" trombone part as fond in "trad jazz" as a bass line for a pop "_____" arrangement.
Thanks!
...Geezer
-
ttf_uncle duke
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
I just remembered something. The first lesson we had in high school was to learn what the walking bass line was for 12 measure blues Bb and 16 measure blues key of F. Then the only notes we were allowed to improvise with were the root, lowered third, fourth, sharped fourth. fifth, lowered seventh and the octave root aka 1, 3b, 4, 4#, 5, 7b and 8.
Those were the only notes allowed at first though we could go above or below the given range only if the formula was still followed. The idea was to train the ears to what sounds go together well when soloing while alternating notes long, short, long etc. The trick was to make music with only the blues scales without sounding generic. After Bb 12 measure blues it was on to 16 measure blues in F though I have seemed to have forgotten that progression. Just a longer version in a different key - good for high school basketball halftime intermission, for example.
Then after all that was hopefully understood it was on to the measures with slashes and chord names only when it was solo time. Was told if you get lost while playing a non written solo that if you resort to your blues scale for the key or chord you're in that you can save face some until you find your way back. Sometimes it sound good and sometimes it don't.
Those were the only notes allowed at first though we could go above or below the given range only if the formula was still followed. The idea was to train the ears to what sounds go together well when soloing while alternating notes long, short, long etc. The trick was to make music with only the blues scales without sounding generic. After Bb 12 measure blues it was on to 16 measure blues in F though I have seemed to have forgotten that progression. Just a longer version in a different key - good for high school basketball halftime intermission, for example.
Then after all that was hopefully understood it was on to the measures with slashes and chord names only when it was solo time. Was told if you get lost while playing a non written solo that if you resort to your blues scale for the key or chord you're in that you can save face some until you find your way back. Sometimes it sound good and sometimes it don't.
-
ttf_uncle duke
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
I just remembered something. The first lesson we had in high school was to learn what the walking bass line was for 12 measure blues Bb and 16 measure blues key of F. Then the only notes we were allowed to improvise with were the root, lowered third, fourth, sharped fourth. fifth, lowered seventh and the octave root aka 1, 3b, 4, 4#, 5, 7b and 8.
Those were the only notes allowed at first though we could go above or below the given range only if the formula was still followed. The idea was to train the ears to what sounds go together well when soloing while alternating notes long, short, long etc. The trick was to make music with only the blues scales without sounding generic. After Bb 12 measure blues it was on to 16 measure blues in F though I have seemed to have forgotten that progression. Just a longer version in a different key - good for high school basketball halftime intermission, for example.
Then after all that was hopefully understood it was on to the measures with slashes and chord names only when it was solo time. Was told if you get lost while playing a non written solo that if you resort to your blues scale for the key or chord you're in that you can save face some until you find your way back. Sometimes it sound good and sometimes it don't.
Those were the only notes allowed at first though we could go above or below the given range only if the formula was still followed. The idea was to train the ears to what sounds go together well when soloing while alternating notes long, short, long etc. The trick was to make music with only the blues scales without sounding generic. After Bb 12 measure blues it was on to 16 measure blues in F though I have seemed to have forgotten that progression. Just a longer version in a different key - good for high school basketball halftime intermission, for example.
Then after all that was hopefully understood it was on to the measures with slashes and chord names only when it was solo time. Was told if you get lost while playing a non written solo that if you resort to your blues scale for the key or chord you're in that you can save face some until you find your way back. Sometimes it sound good and sometimes it don't.
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Thank you. Worth delving into.
...Geezer
Thank you. Worth delving into.
...Geezer
...Geezer
Thank you. Worth delving into.
...Geezer
-
ttf_ddickerson
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 10, 2017, 09:16AMOkay. That's actually the best guidance I've seen yet on this particular art form. So I can go through a typical "how to" book and mark in the root tones for all the listed chords, even though I guess the root tones are pretty much self-evident. It will still give me a written place in which to "walk".
I wonder if there any merit in playing a "walking" trombone part as fond in "trad jazz" as a bass line for a pop "_____" arrangement.
Thanks!
...Geezer
You can if you want to. It's all a matter of taste. I would say that in Bebop the role of the trombone is not as rigid as in Trad, so you have more freedom. (Ensemble playing or playing the head)
Finding counter point lines that connect the chords is another technique when not doing the root line in ensemble playing.
For instance:
I've Found a New Baby - Key of F
Chord progression for the A,A section only:
|dm7///|em7/A7/|dm7///|D7/// |
|G7/// |C7/// |FM7///|em7///|
dm7/// |em7/A7/|dm7///|D7/// |
G7/// |C7/// |FM7///|fm7///|
The counter point line connecting the chords (at least one version):
|F ----|E------|D-----|C-----|
B------|Bb-----|A-----|G-----|
|F ----|E------|D-----|C-----|
B------|Bb-----|A-----|You can choose F,A,C,or E, whatever you like sounds best|
This is a very simple illustration, not anything spectacular.
I wonder if there any merit in playing a "walking" trombone part as fond in "trad jazz" as a bass line for a pop "_____" arrangement.
Thanks!
...Geezer
You can if you want to. It's all a matter of taste. I would say that in Bebop the role of the trombone is not as rigid as in Trad, so you have more freedom. (Ensemble playing or playing the head)
Finding counter point lines that connect the chords is another technique when not doing the root line in ensemble playing.
For instance:
I've Found a New Baby - Key of F
Chord progression for the A,A section only:
|dm7///|em7/A7/|dm7///|D7/// |
|G7/// |C7/// |FM7///|em7///|
dm7/// |em7/A7/|dm7///|D7/// |
G7/// |C7/// |FM7///|fm7///|
The counter point line connecting the chords (at least one version):
|F ----|E------|D-----|C-----|
B------|Bb-----|A-----|G-----|
|F ----|E------|D-----|C-----|
B------|Bb-----|A-----|You can choose F,A,C,or E, whatever you like sounds best|
This is a very simple illustration, not anything spectacular.
-
ttf_Pre59
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
It's worth getting to know about "Fewest notes least movement or FNLM", which is 3rds becoming Dom 7th, Dom 7th becoming 3ds, as in Sweet Georgia Brown. I don't know if this taught now.
-
ttf_sabutin
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
I have watched this thread for quite a while, hoping that someone would say something that made some real sense. Today I have given up waiting.
Title question: Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Title answer: If they are playing the same old stuff, they are not jazz "artists."
End of story.
S.
P.S. And..if you think that they are "jazz artists"...those people who you think are truly playing the same old stuff...then you either don't understand the difference between an artist and an imitator or you have no idea what "jazz" is.
End of postscript.
P.P.S. Eyewitness account, early '60s: Charles Mingus in Ithaca after a concert at Cornell to a young fan from the music school at Ithaca College:
Mingus: Do you play jazz?
Student: Yes.
Mingus (loudly): NO, YOU DON'T!!!
P.P.P.S. That student...no, it wasn't me...had his life changed by that confrontation and eventually became a truly wonderful player and teacher.
P.P.P.P.S. There are people...real artists, real creators...in NYC who have chosen to make "art"...to be truly creative...in some very old jazz idioms. There are others who do the same sort of thing in the mainstream/bebop/standards styles, and of course others who have grown through the John Coltrane/Miles Davis/Wayne Sorter-dominated "avant garde" to create their own styles. And there are also (regrettably) any number of players who are playing totally new music that is...quite objectively speaking...terrible!!!
i offer a Zen koan that goes to the heart of this common misconception about "new" and "old," style and content.
QuoteWhat are you drinking, the cup or the water?
Think on it.
Title question: Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Title answer: If they are playing the same old stuff, they are not jazz "artists."
End of story.
S.
P.S. And..if you think that they are "jazz artists"...those people who you think are truly playing the same old stuff...then you either don't understand the difference between an artist and an imitator or you have no idea what "jazz" is.
End of postscript.
P.P.S. Eyewitness account, early '60s: Charles Mingus in Ithaca after a concert at Cornell to a young fan from the music school at Ithaca College:
Mingus: Do you play jazz?
Student: Yes.
Mingus (loudly): NO, YOU DON'T!!!
P.P.P.S. That student...no, it wasn't me...had his life changed by that confrontation and eventually became a truly wonderful player and teacher.
P.P.P.P.S. There are people...real artists, real creators...in NYC who have chosen to make "art"...to be truly creative...in some very old jazz idioms. There are others who do the same sort of thing in the mainstream/bebop/standards styles, and of course others who have grown through the John Coltrane/Miles Davis/Wayne Sorter-dominated "avant garde" to create their own styles. And there are also (regrettably) any number of players who are playing totally new music that is...quite objectively speaking...terrible!!!
i offer a Zen koan that goes to the heart of this common misconception about "new" and "old," style and content.
QuoteWhat are you drinking, the cup or the water?
Think on it.
-
ttf_Pre59
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: sabutin on Mar 11, 2017, 05:19AM
Title question: Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Title answer: If they are playing the same old stuff, they are not jazz "artists."
There are people...real artists, real creators...in NYC who have chosen to make "art"...to be truly creative...in some very old jazz idioms.
Sabutin, could clarify this?
Title question: Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Title answer: If they are playing the same old stuff, they are not jazz "artists."
There are people...real artists, real creators...in NYC who have chosen to make "art"...to be truly creative...in some very old jazz idioms.
Sabutin, could clarify this?
-
ttf_sabutin
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
QuoteTitle question: Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Title answer: If they are playing the same old stuff, they are not jazz "artists."
There are people...real artists, real creators...in NYC who have chosen to make "art"...to be truly creative...in some very old jazz idioms.
Quote from: Pre59 on Mar 11, 2017, 07:24AMSabutin, could clarify this?
I am not sure. How do you mean, exactly? I'll give it a try, though.
If someone is playing say an arrangement of a Louis Armstrong or Fletcher Henderson piece, being true to the idiom in which they were originally played and yet playing something "new"...something from their own heart, not just a bunch of cobbled-together, stolen licks...then they are making art as far as I am concerned.
"Art" doesn't have to be new to be art. If it was, there would be no reason to play Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and all of the other grandmasters of the Western European concert tradition. Denis Brain playing the Mozart Horn Concerti or Jascha Heifetz playing anything are "art." So is the great Northern Indian musicians playing centuries-old idioms, just for one example.
Ditto with jazz.
I understand the complaint...the so-called "jazz industry" is making recordings of third-rate imitators and then flogging them out there on their so-called "jazz" radio stations and in their mags/websites to be used as background music in automobiles and dining establishments. Anybody who can do a barely passable Miles Davis imitation can get nationwide coverage if he or she is in some other way "identifiable." A haircut, an outfit and a bunch of nonsense about their "art" is all it takes. Meanwhile, honest musicians continue their quest. Get outta your house and away from your digital media...they're all over the place. Where do you live?
S.
P.S. I see you live in the UK. I can't speak for the UK, but in the U.S. real, creative jazz musicians are all over the place. Not just in the big cities, either. They are teaching at universities, working at other jobs, teaching at pre-university levels. They are simply not being hyped, mostly because they don't want to waste the time and make the compromises that said hype requires.
Probably something quite similar is going on in the UK...
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Sam,
Imagine this scenario. Say there is an elderly acclaimed musician who is all but retired; only taking an occasional gig - more for the social outlet than anything - or to give some others some work. Say he has stopped accepting or otherwise making up arrangements on popular tunes for the past - oh - 15 years or so. He has an immense rep of music from the 40's on through the mid-80's or so. In a gig, he will perform those same old songs. And yet, you really don't know what is going to come out of his instrument because he will play what he feels in the given song in the moment. Tomorrow, it will most likely be different. Is he an artist? By your statements, I would say a resounding YES!
That's a different take on my original question. But I think it's a very keen point.
Thanks,
...Geezer
Imagine this scenario. Say there is an elderly acclaimed musician who is all but retired; only taking an occasional gig - more for the social outlet than anything - or to give some others some work. Say he has stopped accepting or otherwise making up arrangements on popular tunes for the past - oh - 15 years or so. He has an immense rep of music from the 40's on through the mid-80's or so. In a gig, he will perform those same old songs. And yet, you really don't know what is going to come out of his instrument because he will play what he feels in the given song in the moment. Tomorrow, it will most likely be different. Is he an artist? By your statements, I would say a resounding YES!
That's a different take on my original question. But I think it's a very keen point.
Thanks,
...Geezer
-
ttf_Pre59
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Quote from: sabutin on Mar 11, 2017, 08:47AMI am not sure. How do you mean, exactly? I'll give it a try, though.
If someone is playing say an arrangement of a Louis Armstrong or Fletcher Henderson piece, being true to the idiom in which they were originally played and yet playing something "new"...something from their own heart, not just a bunch of cobbled-together, stolen licks...then they are making art as far as I am concerned.
"Art" doesn't have to be new to be art. If it was, there would be no reason to play Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and all of the other grandmasters of the Western European concert tradition. Denis Brain playing the Mozart Horn Concerti or Jascha Heifetz playing anything are "art." So is the great Northern Indian musicians playing centuries-old idioms, just for one example.
Ditto with jazz.
I understand the complaint...the so-called "jazz industry" is making recordings of third-rate imitators and then flogging them out there on their so-called "jazz" radio stations and in their mags/websites to be used as background music in automobiles and dining establishments. Anybody who can do a barely passable Miles Davis imitation can get nationwide coverage if he or she is in some other way "identifiable." A haircut, an outfit and a bunch of nonsense about their "art" is all it takes. Meanwhile, honest musicians continue their quest. Get outta your house and away from your digital media...they're all over the place. Where do you live?
S.
Sam,
I can't disagree with any of this post, but it seem at odds with your previous one. There are many musicians I know who are serious about playing well but in a GASB and modern mainstream manner. Isn't jazz about owning your own voice? And isn't it contrived to play in a manner because you should. Been there on the Bass Gtr.
In a few days time I'll be arriving at UK retirement age, and looking back it's always paid me to have a skill set that could be seen as old fashioned. I now play in 2 regular bands where the guests are usually eating, i.e. hotel lunches and "canapé" music at weddings and family events. My role as I see it, is to support the other horn player, and I get as much solo space as anyone wish hope for, melodic and improvised. Very often if a request comes up from the floor, it's usually me that has to lead on it (by ear), while the rest of the band get the chords from their phones.
Am I an artist? More of craftsman some might say, but I'm always trying to play my best, and now even that I don't need to play gigs, I certainly don't intent to let my standard drop without a fight..
If someone is playing say an arrangement of a Louis Armstrong or Fletcher Henderson piece, being true to the idiom in which they were originally played and yet playing something "new"...something from their own heart, not just a bunch of cobbled-together, stolen licks...then they are making art as far as I am concerned.
"Art" doesn't have to be new to be art. If it was, there would be no reason to play Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and all of the other grandmasters of the Western European concert tradition. Denis Brain playing the Mozart Horn Concerti or Jascha Heifetz playing anything are "art." So is the great Northern Indian musicians playing centuries-old idioms, just for one example.
Ditto with jazz.
I understand the complaint...the so-called "jazz industry" is making recordings of third-rate imitators and then flogging them out there on their so-called "jazz" radio stations and in their mags/websites to be used as background music in automobiles and dining establishments. Anybody who can do a barely passable Miles Davis imitation can get nationwide coverage if he or she is in some other way "identifiable." A haircut, an outfit and a bunch of nonsense about their "art" is all it takes. Meanwhile, honest musicians continue their quest. Get outta your house and away from your digital media...they're all over the place. Where do you live?
S.
Sam,
I can't disagree with any of this post, but it seem at odds with your previous one. There are many musicians I know who are serious about playing well but in a GASB and modern mainstream manner. Isn't jazz about owning your own voice? And isn't it contrived to play in a manner because you should. Been there on the Bass Gtr.
In a few days time I'll be arriving at UK retirement age, and looking back it's always paid me to have a skill set that could be seen as old fashioned. I now play in 2 regular bands where the guests are usually eating, i.e. hotel lunches and "canapé" music at weddings and family events. My role as I see it, is to support the other horn player, and I get as much solo space as anyone wish hope for, melodic and improvised. Very often if a request comes up from the floor, it's usually me that has to lead on it (by ear), while the rest of the band get the chords from their phones.
Am I an artist? More of craftsman some might say, but I'm always trying to play my best, and now even that I don't need to play gigs, I certainly don't intent to let my standard drop without a fight..
-
ttf_Piano man
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
Back when Miles recorded 'Time After Time' (the Lauper song, not the Great American one), he caught some flak for playing a pop tune and pointed out that jazz players mostly played over pop tunes--just older ones.
But most people still play the older ones--either old pop and show tunes, or original jazz based on similar changes.
A couple of reasons for this:
1) The jazz vocabulary was set to this style of pop tune, and is to some extent set in amber by much of jazz instruction. At least at an early and intermediate level, people are taught to play scales over ii-V7-I progressions. This simply works better with older tunes.
2) The economics of music have changed to where there is less money and more unrehearsed bands. I've been on many gigs where the phrase 'It's time to introduce the band' meant to introduce them to one another. You're going to call "Autumn Leaves" and "Time After Time" (the Great American Song, not the Lauper one).
3) As Sam points out, there are people making real jazz that's fresh rather than imitative, but it's more challenging for listeners. It's easier to regurgitate a pre-chewed version of Miles, now that it's no longer surprising, than to ask people to be surprised again.
I don't think the distinction between the fresh stuff and the stale rests entirely on the material, anyway. I can listen to Ahmad Jamal take apart 'Wave' and put it back together again without feeling like I'm at a dinner dance. And as Pre59 said, I can enjoy the heck out of listening to people play the 'same old thing' as long as they play well, and as long as it doesn't sound like it's the 'same old thing' to them. Call it 'art' or call it 'craft', but skilled, inspired playing is still enjoyable.
But most people still play the older ones--either old pop and show tunes, or original jazz based on similar changes.
A couple of reasons for this:
1) The jazz vocabulary was set to this style of pop tune, and is to some extent set in amber by much of jazz instruction. At least at an early and intermediate level, people are taught to play scales over ii-V7-I progressions. This simply works better with older tunes.
2) The economics of music have changed to where there is less money and more unrehearsed bands. I've been on many gigs where the phrase 'It's time to introduce the band' meant to introduce them to one another. You're going to call "Autumn Leaves" and "Time After Time" (the Great American Song, not the Lauper one).
3) As Sam points out, there are people making real jazz that's fresh rather than imitative, but it's more challenging for listeners. It's easier to regurgitate a pre-chewed version of Miles, now that it's no longer surprising, than to ask people to be surprised again.
I don't think the distinction between the fresh stuff and the stale rests entirely on the material, anyway. I can listen to Ahmad Jamal take apart 'Wave' and put it back together again without feeling like I'm at a dinner dance. And as Pre59 said, I can enjoy the heck out of listening to people play the 'same old thing' as long as they play well, and as long as it doesn't sound like it's the 'same old thing' to them. Call it 'art' or call it 'craft', but skilled, inspired playing is still enjoyable.
-
ttf_anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
I've flicked through this thread, mainly because it is long and I have to get ready for a gig tonight. But I have the gist of what people are saying. My comment is this: Just because people know lots of words and are good spellers and have excellent grammar, that doesn't make them qualified to be writers. A good writer needs good ideas, passion, anger, humour and life experience. A good writer needs to be honest with him or herself, they need to acknowledge their weaknesses and short comings. Then they need to find a way of putting all this into a book or a film or a play or a newspaper article. For it to be art it needs to be original, uncompromised and should provoke some feeling: hatred, surprise, joy, anger. What it musn't do is provoke indifference. Hacks provoke indifference. Hacks also hide behind technique and vocabulary. I think the same goes for all forms of art, especially music. There are too many indifferent, highly skilled hacks out there!!! Mind you, I know why, Alan Holdsworth...genius guitarist died peniless, had to have some kind of crowd funding to pay for his burial. He never had any money because he "stayed true to his art and true to himself" That is an enormous price to pay. The thing you have the most passion for can end up killing you!!! Me, I just try to play happy music and make people feel good. Here's me!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOEvv3mtMpc